ATBS w/ Dave Pittman

before we begin we wanna make the listener aware that this episode contains adult content related to abuse sexual assault and or suicide listener discretion is advised today we welcome Dave Pittman to bodies behind the Bus Dave is a survivor of sexual abuse and sexual assault that was perpetrated by a Southern Baptist minister for over 13 years he's worked to see reform on abuse policy and culture relating to abuse within churches he is the director of Together We Heal

an organization he formed in 2,011 to help survivors of child sexual abuse and to offer guidance for their families its mission is to prevent sexual abuse help those already harmed begin the process of healing and offer a safe forum for victims and their families to share learn and heal Dave is also a safeguarding educator at Grace an organization which focuses on the prevention of and response to abuse in faith communities Dave helped develop Grace's Safeguarding Initiative

a program that focuses on helping change the culture within churches regarding all forms of abuse we're excited to have Dave on the podcast so let's jump right in to the conversation alright welcome Dave it's an honor to have you on the Bodies Behind the bus podcast we sent you Simon in Amy's episode I would just love to start out with what was your impression of this episode what you take away from it what really stood out to you as well thank you both for having me on I

I do appreciate the opportunity my impression is the same just like we talked about we've talked about previously John and beards it's I'm no longer I'm no longer surprised right we're not shocked of the latest story right it's just the latest story you know it's shocking when you hear a story but this is just the latest and it has the same themes within it that all other abuse within a church happens whether the abuse happened there or not right that's that's irrelevant with regard to what

how we're talking about this case an abuser was within the community and those common themes are right it's it's all about the sin not about the crime it's about minimizing this as much as we possibly can it's about risk management not child Protection cheap Grace just flat out call it what it is cheap Grace and I like what and I can't remember who said it when they were talking about soul murder right I actually 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 years ago when I first came forward just to family

and then when I went to talk to law enforcement to see if there was something that could be done and I Learned you know tragically that statute limitation laws in Georgia were awful it was hip time coming gone and the investigator could clearly see the devastation in on my face and in my body language and she said to me she goes that's what these guys are these sexual predators are serial killers that leave their victims alive and I think and I've said that news that with my story and

and so when somebody in on your show said Soul Murder I immediately connected with that and so those are those are all of those same themes that that are in they're going to be in every single case where there's abuse in church I always get disheartened discouraged about when we when we hear these stories is just how easy it is for it seems so easy for these leaders to to gloss over the hideous nature of the crime and dress it up and sanitize it with Grace and and sin and you know it's a sin

just a sin and and they know what that does at least I believe to us is believers and how how our body reacts to those things and it just it just makes me sick because I think about for the people that have experienced abuse in churches specifically sexual abuse when they hear their leaders sanitize criminal activity and the hideous nature of what sexual abuse is with religious language that just has to be so I don't know like you leave in such dismay and I I just don't even know how you recover

and that's what I always most don't yeah like most don't recover from it in one way or another and how can you even call that love what it does shock me is how we go out of our way to protect it seems like we go out of a way to protect these predators in these types of settings and I don't know it's just disgusting I don't have a question it's just the thought so and the observation and is accurate that's because that is what tragically happens like my specific case

is tied to the Southern Baptist Church and so I have more you know insight about that particular denomination only because of my interaction with with it as a whole and in the individual churches and all of that but they're all the same right it doesn't matter whether it's Catholic or Baptist or you know it just doesn't matter Mennonite Church I've spoken to so many different denominations and every single one and it's cross faith we've worked with a Jewish community

where you listen to their story and their story was the same as what happened because it's not right it's not a faith problem it's a human problem it just so happens that it is more susceptible in faith communities because you throw in that god factor particularly where it is controlled by a chosen few right select few and you in most cases you are you are subject and submissive to them and they know how to also silence just throw in another alliteration there

that submissiveness allows for the silence I have so many questions that I wanna ask you and I'm gonna hold them in my heart and ask them at the end but I do wanna know as we start to talk about this particular story there were parts of this story where I was like okay well like they kind of did that sort of right so I guess my first question for you would be if you're sitting in a church and you get this type of a disclosure what would be your recommendation

a lot of our listeners are sitting in churches on a weekly basis like you said there this is prevalent where there's vulnerable people there are predators we just know that let's say a church does the 5% right thing and discloses Edgefield did what's the proper next step what is the smart next step so I'm gonna answer that directly but I wanna I wanna something you said previously that right they did that 5% of the thing and isn't it interesting how that's the what's what the church

these types of churches in these types of situations that's what they want you to focus on pay attention to this thing that we almost did right they get that one thing right or almost right and from that they expect a full pass on everything they've done wrong because again because they're tied to our faith you must you the way they weaponize a particular scripture they tell you you must forgive you have no choice in this matter and there so you just have to forgive and forget about it

believe the best be charitable right so now to that question though when that congregation receives this disclosure what so what is that next unfortunately you cannot rely because we talked about it even then that's why I kind of wanted to add this to it they got it half right or part right you can't rely that the church did all they could or all they should so tragically just like it with almost every case of abuse you the congregant or the victims the survivors have to do the work

use the congregate bear the responsibility of following up on the work the church says they did verify that you do in fact have the entire truth and sometimes you don't even that's that that's the hard part of this right is folks don't know what they don't know they don't know what questions to ask so that's why you reach out to folks like y'all to folks like us together we heal folks like Grace right you can you can reach out and and and it doesn't cost anything for those

you know for those phone calls with I wanna make sure your listeners know that that that you can call and get counsel advice like all right what do I do what questions do I ask so that way you can find out did you get the whole truth and then if not because usually you're gonna find out you didn't get the whole truth what do I do then because here's where the rubber meets the road at that point you as the victim or survivor or if you weren't involved in it

if you're just a regular Joe Jane smo congregant you're gonna have to decide what is your priority is your relationship to this church and the people in it your priority or is it the Protection of the children there because sometimes you're gonna have to make a choice between those two I mean that's depressing welcome welcome to my welcome to my world man I know this is what we do for work every stinking day and I know you too I know yeah yeah but not like the hideous nature

I mean we do see something I mean everything we see is hideous but I always say like child sex abuse and sex abuse in general cause sex abuse can happen at all ages is a special level of evil that is in my words is indescribable because of what it does to the soul and the person and as you mention the person is still alive and they and they live and in often cases especially with churches the perpetrators the predators get away with it almost almost always and depending on their position

even if it comes out they get to now be like the like god story like we've seen in the Steve Chandler episode in this episode the disclosure was like praising him for his 30 years that he's dedicated to Jesus and walked with Jesus now it's like we watch predators get lionized can I quote back from that episode yeah what they cause I wrote it down word for word about this was what what the church put out right this is what they put me this is at least public with their membership Jesus gave Mike

the desire to share the hope of the gospel with others Mike has been doing exactly that from his time in prison until now his life is a trophy of God's Grace the kind of miracle we all long to see please pray for and love on Mike and his wife Aaron Mike is a wonderful model for how a believer looks on grievous sin in his past he freely acknowledged the severity of what he did and is forthcoming no he isn't he wasn't any of those things maybe somewhere he preached the gospel I have to assume that

but everything else in that was a lie because he was not forthcoming he did not openly acknowledge he flat out lied because unless he has admitted not just the multiple cases he was convicted of but once he's admitted all of the cases because there are always more victims always more victims can you elaborate on that for us because this came up for us during our discourse with the village church as well it's pretty widely known that reoffending is common I mean especially in this case with Mike

he got out of prison in immediately sexually assaulted brutally sexually assaulted a boy the psychology behind that the science and statistics behind that we're not dealing with someone who just like met Jesus and turned their life around that is so naive and so dangerous of us as a church to treat situations like this and individuals like this with that carelessness am I can you expound on that a little bit so there is this like 20,000 word I can't remember if this department of justice

but it's this 20 year long study and unfortunately I took the time to read this it took me a couple years to get through it I still didn't I I I don't have I'm not a I don't wanna make give anybody any false impressions I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist I am merely a survivor who has been now working in the field with other survivors and other professionals trying to help and what I but what I have Learned from the professionals and from the professional work that's been done is

here's it's the wrong every single church I go to every single civic organization I work with every single cop or district attorney wants to know the same why why is this happening why do they offend why do they reoffend all that that big stut 20 years study I told you they did they determined they don't know all of that knowledge all of that study they were they actually got where you're talking to offenders for years and years and years there's a lot of potential reasons

but the bottom line is that none of it matters what we do know for a fact is that sexual predators always reoffend unless they are incarcerated or have become deceased they don't stop they never stop and anyone who tells you and it doesn't matter whether it's chemical castration or talk therapy none of those things work to prevent them offending again there may be momentary you know time periods but none of it stops because it's like Anna Salter said even when they go into prison

you know my mom worked at law enforcement for 25 years and she used to say you know if criminals go in and they go in for a long period of time they come out a better criminal and and I know that's a harsh and awful sounding thing to say but that's usually the reality now put that in with a crime that we're specifically talking about sex offenders are usually put within their own segregated sex because their lives are at risk um in prisons because other prisoners like to beat them up and

or kill them it's just a thing that's done in prison so they're usually segregated together so what happens when you put a group of sexual predators together together it's like having their own library right they get to exchange ideas and how did you get away with it or what got you caught so they come out and I don't remember the exact quote add a salter in her book says they at least is deviant as they were before something like that so they've got all this time and all this practice

they've they've now got got all the the the tips they need so they're gonna when they do get released they're just gonna be better at hiding and and now they've Learned here's what got me caught and if I go to a church and I cry and I tell them how much God loves me and how much he's helped me everyone in there is gonna believe me and I it's gonna be the greatest story they've ever heard and that's backed up with things like this disclosure that you just read

everyone believes him and he got lionized and he he's a trophy of God's Grace made me wanna throw up yeah I mean and this particular individual got out of prison and immediately married someone with two young boys in the age range of his victims again not unbelievable not surprising he was look now he has what is it where in some cases a wife can't testify against a husband or something like that so now he's locked her in to you know because he's been grooming

I guarantee you he has been grooming her all along about how great he is with kids and then he probably showed that for a long period of time so that he she could trust him and and that's I'm just using that as an example of how any predator because again that's not a unique story I've heard many other occasions where predators married someone very quickly because they found they had children in the range of children they liked to perpetrate their crimes against so it's it's not

it's it's not even it's not unique at all I think the thing that's always that I've always wondered Dave and situations like this were where were you know a church at some point Edgefield had to uncover something that made them concerned about why the need to have this disclosure right at some point there was something had to happen to prompt this disclosure because this gentleman had been going to the church for a long time and they had already merged several years before

I don't understand the church's thought process I mean I do now but I'm speaking from like the general public of why they don't take that moment where they think okay we need to make a disclosure why they don't immediately take that moment to bring in a professional to try to seek out how to take this the proper way what is the fault behind a church or an organization almost doubling down on and this is my phrase their stupidity and trying to like jam it through we're just gonna get through this

like what is behind the I guess the thought process there from from churches or other organizations and really quick with that Jay they did bring in an attorney so also speaking into what a healthy professional it was in a protective self protective way not a victim centric way to answer your question though Jay arrogance arrogance and in and in many denominations because they believe the Bible is sufficient and and by sufficient that means they believe they could find the answer to

every question you could ever answer about anything in the world is gonna be inside those 66 books right so they use that and then the authorities the leaders use that to say as leaders we have we will we can find the answer we don't need to rely on you know we don't need them psychiatrist those you know those left wing you know elitist educated it is pure arrogance it is it is a bad it's bad theology that believes you don't need someone who's educated in a field

to give you direction and so that's why they they believe they can come to their own decisions in a way through this arrogance and through their sufficiency they they believe they can handle all of this here's the crazy part of of that kind of thinking on theirs churches don't have the training that's needed to make the determinations right they're not hand they don't know how to handle physical evidence they don't know how to conduct child forensic interviews and the churches aren't independent

because the leaders are either so warped with a bad theology that won't allow an outside expert to guide them properly and or they've also been groomed by because it's not just the kids who are groomed it's also they the leaders there's the desire to protect the institution that leads to just reports not being filed or just doing anything to silence that right and here's the ironic thing the very thing the churches are worried about right there they say they're worried about getting sued

by not taking the proper steps in these cases can actually be illegal they're too arrogant they're too full of themselves and they believe they have all of the answers either inside of themselves that's in the DNA man that's in the DNA that's I I've tried to have this conversation with so many pastors so many folks where they just they look at me and they nod and they bless you know bless you brother for what you're doing you know and then the moment I'm gone they're like we're never using him

because you'll say things they don't want to hear exactly and point out ways that they aren't experts so let's say that a church hires an attorney when they hear this which I mean honestly like there there immediately is going to go it should be going in a legal direction probably with disclosure so I'm not like knocking a church for hiring an attorney but where I do feel like I have frustration is the idea that they'll say like we brought in this attorney

who specializes in child sex abuse in churches but what they really mean is that attorney specializes in defending churches right from lawsuits or in lawsuits when child sexual abuse has occurred within that congregation so it makes you think oh this attorney is professional or an expert that's advising our church on how to best care for a victim or a survivor or how to investigate scope which in this situation again we're we're speaking very broadly

and a lot of the stuff that we're talking about right now when we're speaking specifically about Edgefield we do not know that there are any victims at the church we don't know that right but the problem is is that we don't know that we there's no investigation into scope this man was on staff this man has a violent criminal history of sexually assaulting children and had access to children when a church hires an attorney to defend them or to keep keep them from liability

they're not going and looking for no survivors are victims they are not trying to find that because they don't want to open themselves up to that liability so there is a difference like but that's what I'm saying that's yeah that's the backward thinking about it right what's going to open them up to liability is if they don't take the time to find out and harm has come that's when you're gonna get sued there are very few victims survivors of abuse I believe who have had a church said

we had no idea this was happening what can we do to help you will pay for your counseling will whatever we could do to help if that had been the response each and every time you know how many churches will be sued by those victims virtually none I believe not just personally but professionally it's when they are so you know pull up the drawbridge you know you know circle the wagons we're not gonna talk about any abuse we're not gonna that's when you open yourself up to liability but they don't

there's too many attorneys making money teaching them they you know here's what not to do here's what not to say here's and they're making money that way and anecdotally just based on survivors that have come to bodies behind the bus I can affirm that that is also my experience with survivors no one wants to be at the point of even sharing their story on a podcast much less going to court like they the desire of survivors is for the church to do the right thing

at the start what's really upsetting at Edgefield is that we don't know we just don't know if there are more victims and Dave would you take a moment to explain I I mean it's hard disclosure for women is like 52 or something like that is the average age of disclosure I think right it's that's across the board that's right that's men and women it's in the early 50s is the average age which we come forward and I I do know that boys in particular and men are often erased from this conversation

and there's a different type of stigma in being a male survivor if this person's preferred victim is a boy well what they were they were the boys right right in all the other cases that they were boys so yes what are some of the things that a male survivor is up against when disclosing any spaces do you mind expanding on that a little bit for our listeners I actually had a good a good friend of mine he's a good ally in the advocacy world right Runboard Air it's not like we talk every day

but we've talked a lot about these things and his name is Brian Cardoza and he wrote something one time and he said I'm just gonna quote it says I think there are very few things that are unique to male survivors because trauma is human centric it's not gender specific right he's never met a woman who didn't experience the first 10 12 things that all we all have the guilt the denial anger etc etc but he said what I do think is inherently unique or maybe

the biggest difference between male and female is that it causes a man to question himself about a fundamental issue sexuality when a boy is sexually abused by a man it almost always causes him to ask the question does that mean I'm gay and that's a really big difference in the you know with so because most of the perpetrators of this crime are men to whether whether it's whether the victims are female or male so that's why there's so much whether you see what I'm saying why yeah

where a woman a boy a girl raped by a man doesn't have that same thing as boring and then what does that mean when that when like you're in a community where it's not only not okay for you to not be gay but you're broken and in sin if you are gay so so think about this when a boy's when a boy's molested or raped a biological physiological response happens that is beyond his control right the male body was created and designed to respond to the external stimulus to the penis right

we're grown UPS we know this we know the why but as little children without with with usually in most cases any type of education about the body there's confusion there's shame they don't understand just like I didn't when I was a little boy I didn't understand why my body was reacting the way it did in addition to that boys are held responsible right you're you're you're supposed to be a man be strong and so you get things like well you must have enjoyed it right

it felt you it said you felt good there was you had an erection how could you call that being raped and these are the things that we hear and I haven't got to the homosexual versus heterosexual thing yet those are the parts of those things that keep us silent I wanna make sure I I say something that is heard loud and clear right an erection does not equal consent and and getting back to whether the little boy you know let's what whatever age right so gay or straight if the

if the child identifies is heterosexual there's the confusion of does this mean I'm gay if the child identifies as homosexual now they're questioning was I born or was now was I made this way now you know so all of the and then when you throw in most churches who have anti LGBT rhetoric or theology when someone says why did it take you so long to say something it's a miracle I ever said anything at all there was nothing working for me to say a word ever and all survivors are like that

most survivors had that same feeling thank you so much I think that's really powerful for us to hear and vulnerable for you to share and also something that's important for us to all be aware of when we're thinking about our own communities or thinking about survivors just there is a unique scenario within western evangelical spaces especially non affirming ones where there isn't and they're not tied together yet they are in some ways right so I go

just do wanna be sure to be careful that it's not like oh this perpetrator wasn't allowed to be gay so that's why he did what he did that's not the conversation we're having I see that happen a lot and that's not okay that's not an excuse and it's also just bad understanding of what abuse is and also the fact that over 80% of male perpetrators identify as heterosexual yeah that is the facts whether people choose to accept those facts is a whole different thing but that is a fact

the vast majority of male offenders are straight thank you Dave that's so helpful and so what we have this confusing cloud for male victims that it causes sexual abuse again causes you to go inward and its abuse all abuse inherently makes you feel like you're the problem sure and then there is no safe place to work through any of those emotions because if you even came close to whispering the thoughts you're having internally about yourself you then open yourself up to like crazy stuff

like conversion therapy when you've been a victim of sexual assault as a boy so I just we don't need to continue going too deep into that conversation but I think it's important to mention there's a whole another series of shows Ray I think it's important to mention that I'd be happy to have those conversations with you at that point heck yeah I wanted to touch on that in this conversation because it's like hey we are we don't know if there's other victims when literally a woman what was it

two years prior to this was kicked out or publicly disciplined for being affirming after leaving the church but they'll but they'll allow the predator to have unfettered access to children sure that that's easy yeah right so it's like this is an issue where they have not created a safe space for children to come forward with questions with a normal response to that type of abuse and they haven't looked so we have that going on what could Edgefield have done right if they were

if you could go in there and like magically make this they responded 1,000% correct what would that look like Dave the first thing I'm gonna album just cause I've cause I've got some my notes some notes about my thoughts on what they could done and so you're gonna hear a couple of these we've talked about right and they've got a first thing they're gonna have to understand is there's always more victims now whether that's at their church or at previous job previous churches right

they know for a fact they have someone who is a convicted offender so it is at least if you say right we say as the church capital t capital C we are all brothers and sisters in Christ if that is in fact your belief then would you not want to let others know that this we have a known offender we want you to know it's a church XYZ and church e e f g you might want to let your we not not might we we think you should know this so that you can tell your congregants in case something's happened there

so if they're truly if they're really committed to this to me that's a step that the righteous church would take and it's not just about like they say they've got a policy that they've redone and redone it's not you know we can anybody can stick some words on a paper read them yep okay I read it I signed I signed my membership paper that I read this that doesn't mean squat it's about creating a culture of Protection so how do you do that how do you create that culture

and will they will they get outside instruction it doesn't matter whether it's Grace or or but but somebody that is that is legitimate that is survivor centric it's not about protecting an institution or protecting individuals within a church about the kids will they implement that will they acknowledge their errors and actually put the policy into practice because as a church they've got to be educated on and also on they need to learn offender tactics

identify predatory behavior because clearly they've been fooled he lied to them according to what what was said by Simon and Amy from what I read and and heard right he he said that there was only one case he's lied about that so if he's willing to lie about something he knew think about that he lied about something that that is easily obtainable through a public search so if he's going to lie about that you think he's not gonna lie about something he he doesn't think he's been caught yet

so so those are the things that they're gonna if they're serious about this they have to take those steps if they're if they're serious what do you think about the fact that it seems Edgefield leadership was continuously giving him the benefit of the doubt so Simon and Amy are like well hey he actually lied to his P O officer about his work history and they're like well there's room for he has a different story for that what do you what's like your gut reaction to that response

I'll say the same thing about the person who when I was interviewed on CBS a couple years ago I will tell you what I told them about the man who perpetrated the crimes against me he is a professional liar sexual predators are professional liars because they have to you know be in order to do the things they do they have become so good at it it is second nature and no matter how much people think I know I know how to judge I'm a good judge character I can read somebody Bologna

most people have no clue when it comes to the ability of sexual predators to manipulate someone in their favor because here's the kicker being nice being kind those aren't personality traits right but but especially in the church we most people take them as such oh well look at what John does this and and look at how much time he spends with there's the soup line and and taking out the garbage and cutting the all this stuff that's what sexual predators do they position themselves in a way that

no one would ever consider them being the type of person to harm a child they're professional liars both with their words and with the way they hide themselves in plain sight like that more often in the more in certain denominations in certain groups right they need the boogeyman they need those bad those those really it's the fake bad men to make things so they can have things go the way they teach you the way they're teaching their congregation things are just like

they will say it's this drag queen or it's that them gays I can't tell you how many times I've been at a church you know where I've had a Deacon say well if it just wasn't for those gays and I stood you know stood right face to face with him said I'm sorry Deacon that's simply not the case right it's not those gays that are molesting your children it's uncles and and granddads and teachers and that have that are married and have families that doesn't work for the narrative

that those churches want and desire and and create and have really done so over the last 10 years so the only narrative that fits theirs is to assign boogeyman you know drag Queens and and them gays and all the other prejorative terms that they'll use that that's what works for them tragically to me that's just a great sign of how broken our theology is when you know if you apply the basic teachings of Jesus which is you know bring the children to me

anybody is gonna harm the children that I don't know I don't know the exact quote but it's basically like they're gonna be thrown in it's better for them to like be thrown in the ocean with a stone or something like that attached to them and yet our theology and how we operate as churches seems to be the opposite it seems to be we're gonna let people in here that aren't safe and we're gonna protect them at all costs because of arrogance or because they're not the right type of boogeyman

right there are other people that you should be concerned with and it's just frightening that this seems to be a core thing in the western church where this is allowed to just exist I would go a step further and say the western white church okay even better yes so uh more so yeah it's just sick the question that I have is that I I with this one and when we we talked about Steve Chandler 2 there seems to be this ability for the church to go out of their way to we had always said lion eyes

but welcome these these these predators into their places of worship and and for us all celebrate that right onto their staff under their staff I always equate it's like common sense if someone came to me and said hey there's a janitor at your kids school that has a is convicted sexual predator every every parent at that school would say okay then you need to fire the janitor or I'm taking my kid out of the school and these types of places what is the correct way for us to approach individuals

who have who who are convict convicted sexual predators because we wanna throw Grace and we wanna throw that Jesus saves all oh so what's the what's the right way to yes the church does want to have a ministry with yes okay got you don't I know we're not putting him on staff yeah yeah to me that is beyond stupid but is there is there a correct way or is there a proper way to engage people who have had a history of sexual abusing others if they want to be a part of your church

what is that look like sure if and we're talking about child sexual abuse specifically right so it's it's really really simple it's it's not rocket science if if if a let's say that all of these things that we've been talking about that normally happen let's say the let's say the what we really would want to happen is a redemptive story someone has they've admitted their crimes they've been sentenced they've now gotten out of jail they are they have

they've given their their hearts to God and that they they they want to have a fellowship absolutely we're not supposed to reject fellowship right we are supposed to accept our brothers and sisters that doesn't mean we put kids in jeopardy so as long as if that if that person is willing to accept guidelines from the church and the church would say alright we've got an all male or all all adults small group that meets such and such right or we have

maybe the church even has groups where there are no kids you know