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it only takes a moment but has a tremendous impact on our reach thank you for daring to listen hello and welcome back to the Bodies Behind the bus podcast we have an interesting episode today and I say interesting because 1 this is going to be on video as well so if you're just listening to us and you would rather experience this conversation with our faces attached to it you can go to the links in the bio right now and see us um we felt like this conversation was important to have
face to face so that's why we're doing this reluctantly especially Jay reluctantly he is it's he's hard pressed to get onto haha like every single zoom call it's just J's the black square that's nothing there and you know every once in a while we get like an unmute if we're lucky um but anyways we decided to have this conversation we are four members of our six member board um to talk about what it has been like living in America um from our different spaces that we inhabit
after the election and you know it hasn't even just been like a week of processing this I think all of us have been processing processing this for years some of us on this call lifetimes um but in particular it feels like for me the end of a season in a sense and the beginning of a very unknown very scary season and I don't even think everybody on this call would feel that same feeling that's just how my body is experiencing this um so today we have Robert and Emily and Jay with us here
and we're gonna be talking about what I just said what does this look like for us as individuals to engage in the spaces that we're in and then in particular what does this look like for bodies behind the bus and how does this affect the survivor community and what does it look like to be a survivor of different types of abuse within religious spaces but then also if you're adding on top of that what does it look like to experience abuse and be from a marginalized community
or multiple marginalized communities we wanted to open the space for that conversation so after that very long winded intro to the episode welcome Robert and Emily hey hi we're feeling a lot of feelings this week we're not as peppy as our normal selves um and that's okay we're showing up where we're at I love to kick off with that question just to start us off where are you guys at and how are you doing how has this week affected you and you can be as vulnerable as you want
or as guarded as you want with that answer but let's start off the conversation with that well I mean this kind of says it all I am emotionally unavailable um so I vacilate between being numb and being angry and I'm a little worried about that because I know about myself that I'm a delayed processor so I know that at some point in time this is going to hit me and I can't really predict where it went and how but I still have to go through the depression part of it and
I think there's disappointment I think that there's moments of denial but really sitting in the gravity of what just happened I haven't really been able to do that mentally I've had the space to do it but I just can't enter into that place and it's gonna be real bad yeah I I think for me I I mean I was just kind of numb at first and then really like the weight of the effects and what those effects are gonna be has started to hit me um especially for my students um
and so I mean really just oscillating between anger and worry and and also a sense of like in my heart I kind of thought this was gonna be where we were because what because of what we watched of the past few years especially with the church's response to to me to and church to to covid to all of these things like at I felt angry at myself for being surprised by it um because there's a pattern and and I I usually see the pattern like and and and so just balancing that like anger at myself
but also giving me space for like hoping that that what I think is gonna be really a worst case scenario in a lot of situations and then also just like what it says about us and our character like as a nation and and especially you know 81% of evangelicals which is where I come from um like what that says about our character and who we are like that's the football team that I like is having a really hard season very bad um worse than we thought we were gonna be
and I was thinking about that on Saturday as I was watching us lose a game that we should win like this like this little like disappointment but also why am I not surprised cause that's just how things are going right now that's how I feel all the time about everything but it's not sports it's consequential and and just that like uh can't catch a break like is is like how how I feel like I can't I can't catch my breath I can't catch a break I I can't I can't find like Robert said space
like I cannot find a space a thing to make me feel like no that's it's not as bad as I think like I'm Roberts wearing his emotionally unavailable shirt I'm wearing my potato shirt like that's where I'm at is in and again like I said like I just think for me I'm just trying to regulate myself and the heaviness and worry that I feel so that my students are not taking any of that from me um and and honestly just preparing myself to do that long term can I just add something to what you said Emily
I feel like the hope is the frustration it's it's it'd be one thing if I had to jump off this building from the first floor but I was on the eighth floor and since 2,016 I have just immaculately scrubbed my algorithm of all negativity of everyone who doesn't add joy to my life in some way and so I have I've had this wonderful cocoon of positivity of people who I pour into their life and they pour into mine in some way and so I was just surrounded by people that were saying
I understood the assignment I completed the assignment I understand the assignment so like there was just so much positivity and encouragement across all platforms in my feed that I I started to believe the hype and I don't I'm not upset with myself for hoping I'm upset with myself for not realising that I was in a bubble of my own making and of course of course that's not what reality looked like because like I had to I had to create a safe space so of course we were in the minority why
why would I ever not think that we were in the minority because that's what history has proven and so I guess that frustration I don't consider it an echo chamber and if even if it was I don't care because where I've been I've needed that support that echo but I'm I'm so frustrated that it's like I woke up from just the best dream and here's reality and it sucks yeah I mean I I would say I mean that's so profound both of you I think what you said are so profound
and I think I can speak to like thinking you know again where I live is more progressive in the sense of where I live is is predominantly blue I guess but it's also progressive a lot of different ideals but there's still a lot of conservatism and I see it I was surprised about how much um support he had across different you know people groups and across different states that historically have not supported him not only was I surprised I left that night thinking you know like
what is it really going to take for for I guess the religious or the Christians or those that you know claim some sort of mortal majority to care to care just to care about you know another human being to look at something and say I have concern for this person because it is a image bear of god and that is No. 1 priority for me I heard all the excuses about cheaper gas or groceries heard all of it and in all reality when I at the end of the night I was like it's just the vote to me was that
were further apart from really loving one another like we should and the Celebration too I saw a lot of celebrating and what they were celebrating were just some horrifically hateful things and so I mean I would ask both of you or anybody like like as we move from this world now if I mean how is that impacting both of you because there is rhetoric now about all different types of people groups especially toward women uh especially toward those that may be illegal in this country
there's rhetoric there's hate and I mean there's just an uptick I saw on Twitter there's like an uptick on like 4,000 some percent of like hateful to hashtags that were present so I mean how does that I guess how does that both land for both of you in your spaces and in your you know in your circles like how are you I mean how are you I guess digesting that or even trying to make sense of it because it is like once he won we just turned that faucet on again as loud as we could
and it's just coming out like people feel like they have the ability to protect their hate openly more now and that to me is appalling but it's also devastating yeah I think as a black male that's that's the that's one of the very concrete fears that I had and that's what I experienced during Trump's first election and even his run the second time is is just that he emboldens other people to feel like they they have the room in the space and the permission to be their full vile selves and it
it turns out that this very thin veneer of humanity that so many people have been wearing I mean it just it only takes the smallest thing for it to come off and I think that that's that's the real import of this election is not about policies and economics and all that BS it's about who we are as a nation what we are going to communicate about the world and about ourselves what we allow in society and so you know I I just there there are things that we lived through that I just
I do not wanna go back to and like it it just doesn't matter what I want I mean weird we have to deal with it and so I it's um it's a lot to process it's hard still I mean I've been thinking obviously a lot about my students that's gonna be something that I keep going back to because I live in a place where my students are already vulnerable because of the political climate and culture that were in um you know I'm in a Title 1 school I have a lot of students from poverty
students who are minorities students from trauma um students who are immigrants and and so what what I really seen is is kind of in the same vein as that of this emboldening of this culture that we're already navigating of like now that now the election has happened like that political climate has been so intensified um around like around threatening our students like you know threatening to take food away from them threatening to have them deported
threatening to not provide them with the education that our state constitution dictates that they be allowed um and and so and so there is that emboldening you know and that um in in a in a and not like a taking the mask off cause there was already not a mask right but it's just that it's so intense like I've been feeling in my body like just this deep like what will I do if I'm in school and these things that have been talked about openly by people in leadership
federally and locally start to happen like what is that gonna look like for me like is that gonna cost me my job is that gonna cost like what is that gonna cost me um and and what does caring for my students and and loving them and providing a safe person who values them look like in light of that I mean that that's really where I'm at and and I think um I think there's there's such a complexity of all of these things like Robert you know is seeing it from his experience as a black man and
and I'm seeing it from my experience as a public school teacher and then also you know as a woman like I'm not a survivor um and and seeing people say things like your body my choice made made my stomach hurt made my body hurt like I had a trauma response to that um as not a survivor and and so um and so yeah I just I think the the emboldening of of gleeful cruelty and and people and especially people doing that with the name of Jesus on their lips like I mean where I live it
it's Christians it's church people um and and and that it it's so antithetical to what to what I am convicted that our faith demands of us and that's the thing that I'm having trouble reconciling like I expect people to be terrible people have been terrible all throughout human history that is the through line of human history is people are terrible but I expect believers in Jesus to lay themselves down to protect the vulnerable from terrible not be the ones gleefully doing it
and I cannot reconcile that I can't I don't know where to put it it doesn't make sense to me and I will never get over it never and Emily let me validate what you said like it's not just your understanding of the gospel that is the objective true accurate understanding of what the gospel is you're not crazy we're not crazy so the majority of the US has lost their mind is what it comes down to these people did not hold their nose they cheered uh I wanna interject it is not technically a majority
it's like 49 point something percent the voting that I'm not gonna give them more credit than they deserve well I mean that's fair enough I just I feel like it's a representative sample I like how could it not be because of the jury the church jury church voted for him 100% so there's a pastor there was some Mrs Stone back that there was someone who put up a map of the US on social media and the blue dots as he indicated that those were mission zones or places where
we need to send missionaries in the States and I and to your point Emily like I think that's how and to to Robert's point like that's how that's where that really speaks volumes or where we're at and and what we see and how closely we have now tied these political beliefs to our religious beliefs and you know and by doing that we have we have willingly sacrificed in my opinion you know our savior and the beliefs of our savior to to what for power and and only power for a few and it's
it's just sad Sunday night it like hit me before the election like this wasn't going how I had thought like I don't know where I'm at with God right now but maybe it was God just like throwing me a bone like prep yourself this is about to get harder than you even thought um and I went on this date with my husband and I'm sitting there and then I just started like vocally ugly sobbing in public and um and I like had to assure the bartender that I wasn't getting divorced
that I was crying about the election and our country and really what I was crying about and what I could not get over and it was shocking to me because we have a lot of episodes of stories of this being the character of the people that we were supposed to trust you know or that are supposed to be speaking in Jesus name and following Jesus but just like the layer of betrayal this time hits different and I don't and I think that's partially because my eyes are open more um
and partially because I can't believe more people's eyes aren't open more this time I just kind of what you were saying Emily with this inability to reckon with it and like nowhere to hold it and no ability to get over it like it's just like this giant stone that's just like sitting on my chest that just exists and I can I have a place for people who aren't doing it in Jesus name like I have a way to process that I have a place to put that and I even have like more empathy for that
as awful as that sound like I can like I I have patience for it in a way that I I have none left for people that claim Jesus and that is a new layer for me where I feel like I have worked exceptionally hard to stay soft um and to hold on to hope and I don't I'm trying not to use totalizing language during these next few weeks because I know I'm gonna be on a roller coaster of all sorts of stuff but I do feel like this giant rock on my chest that is the evangelical church in America
and the complete lack of integrity and wickedness that we have decided to get under the blanket and snuggle up with and say kumbaya I just I I can't like I I'm not I don't even know if I have more to articulate but that's where I'm at emotionally and I think that survivors that continue to speak out in the face of this are going to be where I go to find hope um but right now like I'm shaking saying this because I just feel so off kilter and so stuck like I feel like we're in a corner right now
and like there is nowhere to go we're just here like what do you do with that like that is so scary if I can just encourage you Jonna as your local friendly Enneagram 8 who is ready to just always burn it all down I think it's completely fair to speak in terms of totality here because there is no one if you are an adult who and I'm not saying this flippingly like if you have average intelligence as an adult and you can vote and you did vote or you could vote and you didn't vote
or you voted for 3rd party whatever you knew exactly where we are what the consequences would be you knew exactly who you were championing championing however you said that word you knew like no one knows ignorant like we live in the information age I cannot give anyone the benefit of ignorance at this date so I can't accept that people were ignorant that they should have known better like everyone knew like just set everything else aside I don't know who needs to hear this
but as a criminal defense attorney I have never represented someone who had 34 felonies and I certainly never represented anyone who had got convicted of 34 felonies and walked out the courtroom I have tried every case you can think of okay I'm talking traffic tickets to murder never have I we had my my business partner just got done trying this huge Rico case where they were like 5 or 6 or something defendants and they were all interacting together was the allegation and like
there's allegations of murder and drug usage and burglary and all this none of those guys had 34 counts none of them take away everything else a 34 time convicted felon that's not going away no one's without it's no one no one has an excuse no one I agree and thank you for putting that perspective here I just like I think even with that part of the feeling like I'm in a corner right now is like the knowing a little bit what you were saying in the beginning
like I grieved on Sunday but it wasn't even close to what really needs to be grieved right now and knowing that to continue forward for my own good like just as a human and the people I care about I'm gonna have to like grieve so deeply that that wasn't disqualifying to the church that 34 felonies wasn't enough that truth does not matter and that character does not matter like that I don't even have a place or a space or an understanding of how to grieve that
like it feels so big and so vulnerable and like can we even I I believe we have to take the time to grieve it like I believe there's it's a non negotiable for all of us especially those of us on this call who are face to face with this garbage every single day but like how and like what are we risking to do that like when you pull that thread and actually let yourself grieve this wickedness like how do you live like how do you keep walking you know I do think there's
another layer to what Robert was talking about is that I I agree people are without excuse but I think there are a lot of people who chose not to know who chose to look away who chose not to listen I've had so many conversations where I'll say well what about this and like well I've never heard that well like well I don't read stuff I don't listen I don't watch the whatever like I'm I don't care about that like like they have decided that it's fine for them to not know and not care or
and so and so it it it it's this chosen self protective ignorance that they think gives them a pass and and and it doesn't erase their culpability it just make it just erases their cognitive dissonance about it and so like well well I didn't know that well I didn't believe that well whatever and like the the amount of evidence like the speaking as an Enneagram 5 I do not understand having the amount of evidence the patterns the receipts and and just being like oh well I
I didn't know that I didn't see that I didn't believe that like it's to me that's what makes up my mind right the evidence and the facts and and those things and and I think so many people it it's too internally costly for them to admit that they know and so they've create I think so many people especially in the church and and we see this with with abuse situations right that people have created a bubble of ignorance around themselves so that they create a bubble
of not being accountable around themselves as well and well I didn't know that so or it's not my fault I didn't know well like you know now what's stopping you from knowing now and I think that people will choose not to know choose to close their eyes choose to close their ears because then they do not have to be held responsible for what they do with the knowledge and and I actually think that that that is a bigger problem because then we're just screaming into the wind with people who in to
to take words from Jesus have hardened their hearts and have turned their ears and eyes away from the truth and and like it's it's a whole lot easier to say this is what God wants when you just pretend that you've never heard or turn or turn it off or or refuse to believe the multitude and decades long patterns of wickedness like and and and my experience with people has been they have convinced themselves that they're not trying to hear that and if they do accidentally hear
they don't have to believe it and there is no convincing that it matters to know the truth and be changed by it so I think that when you're talking about like the like the five stages of grief you know like denial bargaining anger depression acceptance I think that are saying that there are people out there that have turned their ears off who their algorithm isn't giving them information who are informed and don't want to be informed I think that's our version of denial
if you don't know like again I go back to I don't think anyone's uninformed but let's just say they didn't know about 34 felony convictions you know something you lived through his first term you know what he's about yeah if you didn't hear if you didn't hear him say anything about his policies or anything about commerce policies you've heard him speak and you know that he's a you watch January 6th right we all watched that right you know that he well that's why I keep saying choosing
they're choosing to just erase it from their brain so that they don't have to deal with their responsibility in it I mean I I just I can't excuse it like if if nothing if you didn't know no I don't think it's an excuse I just I just think that it's I think that people are intentionally refusing to hear the truth and I think that it's so reflective of what we see in churches like of you know in like I I was in an SBC church at the time that the Houston Chronicle thing came out
and I had so many conversations with people who said well but that's not a problem here and like they would not listen and and one of those people like their own daughter was a victim of sexual abuse in a church setting and and and still there's just the refusal to take in the information not that you aren't exposed to it but that like I I just think that there's so many people who have this self protective like that thing isn't real because I want this other thing to be more important that and
and so I and so I don't hear me don't hear me excusing it that's not what I'm doing I'm saying that like I think that people are in a prison of of this bubble around themselves that they refuse to interact with reality in a way that makes them responsible for how they interact with it does that make sense yeah I mean I hear that and so I hear that I guess my point is at the point that you are exposed to the truth you are without excuse when you see reality and you if you if you decide
that you're going to accept a different reality because reality makes you uncomfortable at whatever level of cognition that happens you are without excuse and the the only way for the rest of us who have some semblance of sanity to get ourselves out of this abusive relationship with these people is to understand that whether it is intentional action knowing action whether it's negligent they should have known better the reasonable person would have known better whatever level of cognition
whether it's intentional or reckless there's there's some level of culpability that's involved that we can incite that we can assign to them and say you should have known better you should have done better you didn't if you didn't know anything about the man his policies or anything else you just you know that as especially in the church you know what the scriptures say allegedly right and you know that he doesn't add up you're without excuse and so I so I I have a question on top of that
cause I think both of you this has been something I've I've really you know thought about his exhaustion you know especially you know for Robert is a black man other people of color like there has to be a level of exhaustion to this whole thing because it's like it's just it's it's just the same it's just it it's just the same story especially in the church and then I also think from like a survivor's perspective if you're an abuse survivor in the church there has to be a level exhaustion too
going back into this so I would love to understand where does exhaustion fit on tiny that that paradigm of grief and then what is if people if people are feeling that level of exhaustion what are some things to do to really I guess acknowledge it and name it and have space for it because I know that that is something that is there and has to be there for most people I mean I know I'm tired um my newsfeed is just black person after black person I mean black people we we are we are exhausted we we
we've been tied um there seems to be a a consensus right now that you getting what you asked for and I on one hand I don't know what to do with I've never been in the position of seeing a place where my help was needed and intentionally turning my back and saying not my problem I've never done that before but there is a self preservation like a cocoon instinct right now that I think that a lot of black people in particular are feeling that's just kinda like
I'm done telling you that the stove is hot touch it like I can show you better than I can tell you you just gotta figure it out on your own and I think that a lot of us are trying to figure out yeah what does that look like while we are still within like we're still on this boat together so what does that mean you know does it mean like you said that I'm just concentrating on my family is it mean that um you know I'm building a community I talk in the book about the importance of
not hunting for community trying to find community and like turning over rocks and church hopping and putting your heart on the altar week after week hoping that you're gonna find a safe space but rather creating a safe community so that you know people that you know are are like minded that we don't have to strive and struggle like we're just gonna gather together and then do our thing I what does that look like now I don't know like I just I'll be completely honest with you I mean we are um
you know just this week we got passports made so you know there's no telling what the future will hold and you know I I I can't afford to not be ready to pivot so I guess to to add to your thought um I I don't know what it looks like to live in community and to love people and to care for people while at the same time being too tired to expend any effort to do so I think that white X evangelicals have more of a responsibility over the next 4 years to stand on the front lines
because it was us it was our families it was our people that created this space and that voted for this for our country so I do feel like there is a different weight of responsibility depending on how we enter this next four years how we engage like I feel responsible to have these conversations where I don't feel like you're responsible for that Robert um does that make sense what I'm saying yeah no you're that's exactly what I was gonna say I was
I was thinking about your conversation with Tiffany thick pin um and and how she said that like she was talking about that they want you to give up and just go away and and that's something that I really stress a lot in you know in SBC things is that like what matters is for people who are not survivors to step into the work to pick up the baton and to carry it to the end because survivors are tired like they they've been doing it and I and I think this is parallel to that like um
to what both of you are saying like the people who who have been bearing the weight of these hidden things that have been revealed they don't need to be the ones who have to do continue the work of carrying that like other people need to step into it and and and so you know I like yeah I mean basically I mean I I live in a place where every county voted like saw everything and said yes that's what we want right and and so I think there is this this desire for well
now you're just gonna get what you want right and and you maybe if you just get what you want then you'll like be reflective about or whatever but first of all I don't know if that's necessarily true like that my experience is not that people are are going to be reflective um they're gonna double down um but but the other thing for me is that like I feel that like you know to to quote the Old Testament to turn people over to their evil desires and let them deal with the fall out of that
like I get that but again I teach pre K and a Title 1 school if we turn the department of education over to the evil desires here then my students stop getting food my students stop having IPS my students stop having 5 O fours my students stop having a school counselor my students stop having things that they need not just to thrive in school but to literally survive and there are so many layers on top of that right because it's not just school it's immigration things it's you know like other
it's Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security and so you know I have a student that if I have a student who lives with grandma and they're on Medicare Medicaid and live off Grandma's Social Security and and someone in their family is an illegal immigrant and they get free and reduce lunch and they are on IP and they like there's all of these layers of vulnerability that my innocent four year olds bear the cost of just letting it burn down and so what and so for me like
yes I want people to recognize the consequences of their actions but also I'm gonna do everything in my power to prevent the innocent children whose charge I am whose care I am charged with for suffering those consequences and and so and so I think there's a complexity to that and an acknowledgement of like well people just need to like my students cannot survive tariffs they already can't buy food and and and so recognizing the layered vulnerabilities and and who is going to bear the brunt
of it because it's not going to be white suburban evangelical women like we're gonna bear some of it but the brunt of it is gonna be the immigrant students in my classroom the students from trauma in my classroom the students in a cycle of poverty and violence in my classroom who are not getting the resources that our community has promised to give them because we wanna let other people f around and find out they're not the ones finding out my kids are finding out and and I
I don't know what I'm gonna be able to do about that but I'm gonna stand in front of everything I can do about it because that's my responsibility sick irony is that the you know the people that'll say are pro life what you just described is pro life it's pro it's that is the essence of pro life but yet we turn our eye to that because of political gains and rhetoric and in hate speech and things like that and you know I would say to like you know when you look at some of the things he's proposed
and especially like the immigration ban or the immigrant deportation of people which is just appalling on so many levels I I mean like I would I would say this like if you if you were a leader in the church and you are you are not you are not speaking out against what is happening right now and I'm not talking about like speaking out mildly boldly boldly speaking out and telling your congregation the truth about what is going on then this is on you as well
because you are a critical role in this component and I do believe that there are church leaders who don't agree with what happened but if you are silent right now if you are silent and you refuse to speak you are I mean the guilt is just as bad for you because part of the reason that I believe that we got there here is because church leaders just decided well we're just gonna preach the gospel and by doing that they basically ignored the humans ignored everyone
and we just focused on our Sunday service and writing our sermons and then leaving no this is the work like this is what matters and I just I mean I just wanna say like I'm just heartbroken that these conversations even have to have we even have to have in communities and it it breaks my heart when I hear you speak Emily breaks my heart Robert it breaks my heart just to hear your exhaust I can see your exhaustion like it breaks my heart like it breaks my heart and we have got
we have got to stand up we've got to stand up we cannot allow this just evil and this just reduction of humanity to exist in our churches because they aren't churches then they're just places we go to check the boxes and get I don't maybe go to dinner or whatever they're not churches they're not of the gospel they're not of Jesus they're not of Jesus if you're promoting pro Trump policies in your church your church is not of Jesus and it said that 1,000% is not of Jesus
Jay I think you made a really good point and it's something that I thought of because I try to avoid feeling hard things as much as possible as a human being my brain automatically goes to like well who's gonna do like how what are we gonna do who's gonna be who is gonna be on the front lines like who's gonna who are they gonna believe they don't even believe me like they're my like family like who who is gonna get through to them and again not sure anyone is
maybe a lightning bolt from the Lord himself but like immediately I was like we need pastors we need pastors we need all your pastors in your pulpits to start bearing the cost you've got to start bearing the cost and there's no excuse there's not one excuse I don't care how damn tired you are we're all tired stand up and speak to this crap you need to be the front lines you need to be telling your people because they don't listen to us they're not listening to us
and I know you pastors are listening to us cause I know pastors listen to this podcast you have to start bearing the cost and you're gonna lose ties and you might have to close your doors and you might have to go to a park and start talking from a park table bench I don't care anymore it's not worth it none of the crap is worth it if the cost is our soul and you are double responsible if we believe the Bible you are double responsible for what you are not discipling in your congregations
or what you are discipling which is hyper individualism hate that you have masked in love and masked in the language of Jesus himself and it is disgusting and it's time to stand up we're done we're tired this is tired Johnna talking right now we're tired it's gotta be you it has to be you cause we our voices don't matter I'm a woman especially in white evangelical churches to be honest Robert has more of a voice in most of those spaces than I have in those spaces and that's complicated cause
there's other complicated parts that are involved in that that are intersecting but it's a reality like I can't walk into the room and say these things I'm not allowed to say these things my voice matters is nothing you have to say it white pastor you have to say it sorry yeah and I just wanna say you know Jay said something that I think is really critical but also incomplete is that people chose to just preach the gospel but the gospel is turning upside down the economy of this world
for the sake of other people right like I mean the the Gospels starts with Matthew and it's Mary's magnificot right and Mary's magnificot is this prophetic retelling of of these strains from the Old Testament of god upturning the empires of this world and setting up an economy of the lowly being lifted up that is the beginning of the gospel and and and when we say just preach the gospel if we are not preaching that we lay ourselves down to lift others up then we're not even doing that
right like I had a conversation with a with a fellow believer that I am close to who said well Emily you can't expect people to vote against their own interest I absolutely can that is exactly what I should expect from the people of Jesus to lay themselves down against their own interest for the sake of other people that is exactly what the gospel is it is I take up my cross I crucify myself I lay down my wants my desires I give you more than I'm required to more than you ask of me
and I follow after Jesus as he does that as he empties himself and lowers himself to lift other people up and so when pastor say well we're just concentrate on the gospel then preach the whole gospel preach the whole council of Scripture where god has a special concern for the marginalized and the vulnerable where god has a special concern for for mistreatment of those people and his harsh judgment upon his people in when they when there is corruption
and mistreatment of the vulnerable and the lowly like that is the whole council of Scripture and and if we're gonna say if pastors are gonna say if preachers are gonna say if churches are gonna say well we're not political you you cannot be partisan that's fine but you are political because political literally just means like things about groups of people and that's literally what a church is it's things about groups of people right and and the gospel is is innately political
that's why Rome killed Christians right because because it is an innately political message to say the empires of this world crumble and kneel because of the complete upheaval that the life death and resurrection has done to the reality that we live in and so if our if our version of that is only our personal transformation our personal piety our personal whatever we are not preaching the gospel we we are not preaching it in our in its wholeness and Scripture tells us that
if we remove things from it we're not preaching it at all and so there is this heresy I'm gonna straight up say there is this heresy in the white evangelical church that the gospel is this narrow thing when scripture makes it clear that the gospel is Jesus entering into the world that he made good flipping it upside down to set things right and one of those main things that he sets right is how we treat the low and the vulnerable and the marginalized and so if the people of God
excuse mistreatment of those people because we're just focused on the gospel we are we are lying we are lying period we are using Jesus as a shield and an excuse to not do what god requires of us and to not follow after Jesus in the life that he calls us to and and I'm just gonna say like it's a false gospel a gospel that does not require us to lay down our preferences in our in our own things for the sake of the lowly is a false gospel full stop and you cannot elevate corruption power
power at the expense of the well being of other people right and and there's this through line of that with the sexual abuse in the you know the immigration stuff and and even just like the personal business dealings there's this through line of power at the expense of other people and and scripture makes it really clear that that is a thing that God takes seriously and we cannot turn our eyes away from that or hold hands with it we cannot hold hands with with empires to ourselves
and and also hold hands with the Jesus who was crucified by that empire we cannot hold hands with the spirit of this world and be into well by the Holy Spirit and so I'm gonna straight up and this is something that I've been saying I mean Covid really was the beginning of this revelation for me well that's not true covid was like the breaking point of this realization of this realization for me that most people in the white evangelical church have been discipled into following themselves
their own desires their own wants their own well being and the gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to radically lay those things down for the sake of other people and we cannot elevate and rejoice in the elevation of a person who tramples other people and call ourselves preaching the gospel we just cannot there's something that um both of you touched on and it reminded me that I think that white pastors in particular feel like it takes so much bravery to be able to speak on topics of race
and the marginalized in their congregations especially in a white church community and I remember begging the pastors of the church that I was at in 2,016 which was a multi racial church but not multicultural I remember begging them to say something and they just refused to and there was the sense of like oh you're so brave if you can speak out all those things and when I finally left that church and I went to a congregation we're talking about the marginalized and the application of the gospel
to the oppressed within society was just a standard ethic of the congregation it made me realize that it's not a lack of bravery that keeps white Christianity from addressing the gospel and its application for the poor the marginalized the the people of colour the oppressed it's not lack of bravery it's lack of integrity would you understand what the gospel is really about you have an obligation to preach it and if you're not I think that it's fair
to ask whether you are following the ways of Christ whether you are representing Christ and if you're not doing that what are you doing well I'm gonna pivot us to bodies behind the bus as a whole right now sacred wilderness the work that we're trying to cultivate here I might start us into that part of the conversation with just reading what um we have two board members who are not on this call um who are actively also engaged in their own spaces 1 who's a therapist 2 surprise
surprise has been working overtime to meet with clients over this past week um and then Eric who you guys heard from a few episodes ago incredible human being he sent me this to read to all of you he said I garden in South Florida which is basically a swamp all my gardening friends ask Eric how do you get such good yields on all your plants and what I tell them is that I make sure the roots and soil are healthy that's the most important thing they normally focus on the leaves to kill weeds
that matters but not as much as the roots the reason why people don't focus on the roots is because it's slow and not flashy if the roots of your plant are healthy your plant will be healthy if you want to kill weeds you have to kill their roots the work we do at Bodies Behind the bus is critical we address misuses of spiritual power to make the roots of Christian community healthy and kill the roots of Christian abuse including Christian nationalism in its various forms
we do this by platforming survivors and bringing academic and professional expertise to this space we're gonna continue to do what we've always done even if it takes forever because it's the best solution to all of these issues thank you Eric I'd love to kind of open up the discussion in the floor to you guys I know we're tired but I also know you wouldn't be here if you didn't care and I can speak to the integrity and the heart in each person on this call and how much they love
the survivor community and they love image bears full stop no caveat so let's chat a little bit what is what does this mean for us as sacred wilderness bodies behind the bus how are you feeling with with where we're at uh I mean I can say that I'd love you know Robert and Emily your perspective but I can say I think from from where I where what I see now is that I wanna make sure that the platform continues to be a place where people can come and share their stories
and feel safe doing so and hopefully through this you know we can create some sort of type of community for all of us to where we can just help each other whether that be just sharing what we're feeling lamenting uh doing what we're doing right now uh I would love to do that more for for their survivor community I'd also say like I think it emboldens me to just basically be like I'm gonna try even harder and I'm gonna continue to push and continue to write and continue to press and step uh
step up to say I'm not gonna tolerate this and the church that I think we need in this country which is not the church that we see today and feel like I'm gonna fight like hell and then we continue to fight like hell and if you're exhausted I'll fight for you I don't care and if you're tired I'll fight for you I will do whatever I can with everything that I can to continue to be someone who advocates for justice and reform and most importantly repentance because that has to happen
and it hasn't happened in this country ever so kind of feel like John we've talked about that verse Jeremiah 28 9 where Jeremiah is just like every time I talk about the Lord I'm made to feel like a subject of ridicule but if I don't then it feels like this fire that's trapped in my bones and I can't bear not speaking about it as I I guess I feel more of that on a new level now like a different facet of it I already felt that way just about speaking about issues of justice
within white Christianity but now it's it's close to home again and I I don't know I think that I know what I can do right now is I can listen and I know that if I have the ability to contribute resources that are not um I don't require me to be on the front lines so if I can contribute financial resources or knowledge or something like that I have the capacity to do that but I I think that just in honesty like I always will be an advocate and I can't turn that off but I I don't know how
I don't I don't have the energy to be what I want to be right now so as you can see I'm still at school if you couldn't tell from the colorful buckets behind me um so I had to borrow some equipment for this recording from a colleague and I was talking to him about just what I'm doing today and about sacred wilderness and bodies behind the bus and what we do and he said how do you do that work now when when church people just told the whole country in huge numbers
there is no accountability for sexual assault and sexual abuse because that is what happened 81% of white evangelical Christians voted for an adjudicated rapist who has dozens and dozens and dozens of credible allegations of abuse and assault over decades and so how did how do you move forward in doing that and I and I thought about it and I think my answer cause I I was thinking about it yesterday after we talked and and I couldn't I didn't have an answer then I was like honestly I don't know
but as I thought about it today um I think that it matters for us not just to provide resources for people and things like that which in in a community and that you know that sense of lifting each other up and people not being alone I think that that matters but I also think that it matters to bear witness to to what is true and to name it and to and to say in the face of that in the face of the people who claim the name of Jesus saying actually this doesn't matter like you can
you can sexually assault someone and be a pastor you can sexually assault someone and be president like it didn't really matter being a woman is worse like that is the message right um being a person of color is worse um that that's the message whether whether it's the intended message or not it's the message and and so I think it matters for us to call things by their name and to say no actually this matters what happened to you was not okay and there there is
and should be justice and accountability for that and there are people who will fight for that for you and and it does not matter the cost for us to say I will be the person who who says this is not okay and who demands that what happened to you be heard and be acknowledged and that justice be sought for it and and that we not allow the elevation of a sexual predator of a financial predator of a racial predator be an excuse for for those in our circle to walk outside of accountability
but that we say no no no no no like we we work for justice in our in our spheres and we work for justice together and we stand shoulder to shoulder with people and say you deserve justice and even if it is delayed I will stand with you and and and so for me I think what this looks like going forward is is a lot of anger and exhaustion and I mean does it even matter right that's what that's what it feels and and I think the way that you know I I think that in a way
we look at ourselves as people who document the truth of things in the midst of history right because there's those examples of that all throughout history of here's the big story and then here's the small group of people paying the cost telling the truth and and what it looks like to be the keepers of those stories um because I really truly believe that that we are in a historical shifting point and so being the people who you know being the people who told the stories of enslaved people
and held those stories being the people who told the stories of indigenous peoples in the colonial period and and held those stories I I I think that this is another thing where we're the people who who hold the stories and tell the stories of abused peoples in in the same way that those enslaved and indigenous peoples were but it's a different kind of abuse right and and so I think that there are some historical significance to telling these stories and naming them for what they are
in our larger cultural climate but I also think it matters for us as individuals to name things as they are and to say that they're not okay and to continue to say it because when we don't do that then we become the people who know it and excuse it right cause we all know people who like like that who in 2016 and 2015 and 2021 said no this is unexcusable and then willingly and even sometimes joyfully joined in to what they had previously called wicked and
and so for us to continue to tell the truth not just to other people but also to ourselves so that we would not be susceptible to living by wise I think really it's important thank you guys um we can wrap up here I have one thing that I wanna say to specifically you Robert something you said where you're not able to show up right now the way you want to that is such it was like a sacred thing to hear I think because I'm so used to men showing up when they need to
not show up in the way that they are and they need to take the time to grieve and to to heal before they start getting on platforms and doing the the forward facing stuff um and I think not pushing through that and acknowledging that is massively impactful and something that we do not see predominant specifically in white evangelical spaces we don't see it and you valuing that is holy work so I want to acknowledge that in you that it's not like you're just too tired and you can't do it
like you that in itself is a form of resistance and it's beautiful and I appreciate you sharing it with us one of the things that I first when we had a call as a board this week that my first concern was like what's the risk to survivors that trust us with their stories on this platform um cause we kind of know relatively prior to this what the risk is right like um we're never we're never sugarcoating something with a storyteller in the very first contact that I have with a storyteller
I say here are your risks and there is also stuff outside of this that I might not know about like this is the cost and and it's a lot it's a big cost and my immediately my fear was like how much more is it gonna cost to our storytellers to speak out and to share their stories and how much more does that cost escalate depending on other vulnerabilities or if they are part of other marginalized communities how much does it cost for a black woman to trust us with her story
for a Latin X woman to trust us with her story right now especially we have that coming we we have those stories recorded and we're holding them and I'm I just wanna acknowledge that like we see that cost our team sees that cost and there's not some like easy platitude for that there's not like this like well you know at least you got friends now to go along with you like no it freaking sucks and we don't know what this cost is and we don't even know like I don't wanna be doomsday
but we don't even know how long we can even do this publicly the way that we are that's a reality that is a question Mark that is literally in our brains right now is how long can we do this and be allowed um which is crazy and you maybe are listening to something at that such a radical like you're too in the weeds no like the fact that can even be on the table is insane everyone that's insane we live in the United States of America and that's a fear a real legitimate fear
that people have in this space right now and at the same time I know because of the caliber of people that we have gotten to meet and walk alongside as they shared their stories that like Robert said I mean that is my favorite Bible verse it's tattooed down my side there are just some of us where it is fire in our bones we cannot be quiet and they can try to take our voice but you're gonna have to kill me I'm going down with the ship like I am not shutting up
they tried to do it in the church I came from and so I just went outside and I got louder and to be honest like that's that's kind of where I'm landing with it like we keep telling the stories we keep standing with the people that are going to bear the cost of this we keep helping to equitably shoulder the cost of what it is to take the next step forward we bolster ourselves up we have these conversations we sit on the phone and we rage together and we cry together
and we just sit in silence with each other and stare at each other but we're gonna keep doing the work because this is what Jesus called us to and until I stop believing in Jesus I'm gonna keep doing the work and I'm not ready to let go of Jesus yet if y'all wanna start some work some history lessons some just in general work on the inside and you are in white evangelicalism or coming out of white evangelicalism Robert has a great book that he's currently recording the audio for
so you're gonna be able to listen to his voice tell it there it is fire in the hole that's a great place to start bear witness to that story and then ask hard questions don't stop listening don't harden your heart staying soft is so important right now for all of us and I needed Emily to preach at me for a little while before I was like that is the gospel okay I can do this like I hope this conversation was that for this community were sad it's gonna be hard but we've got each other
alright I love you all thank you for doing this with me in spite of how tired we all are and we'll see you soon haha the views thoughts and opinions expressed here are the speaker zone and not those of this podcast this content is presented for informational and educational purposes that constitute fair use commentary or criticism while we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate we welcome any comment suggestion or correction of errors