ATBS: Community, Accountability, and Care

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Um, we had A beloved figure, um, be outed for covering up a Knight Grace investigation by, um, his two former contractors, Adele and Sherry, who were beloved members of that community. So we are talking about the New Evangelicals. And if you do not follow them, if you're not involved in online spaces, you can pause right now and go check our show notes. There is going to be an article linked there that kind of breaks down what we're discussing.

But we felt like it was important to have this conversation here because we do have so much overlap and truly because it affects survivors and storytellers and unfortunately there are people out there that are future survivors and storytellers that are watching this unfold and that has an impact and it's important to talk about that.

So To begin, we just want to read a statement that we posted earlier this week, um, just so you guys know where Bodies Behind the Bus stands before we enter this conversation. So we posted this statement. We acknowledge the release of the New Evangelicals NetGrace report. We commend their organization's pursuit of accountability and support industry wide integrity standards. The disclosed harm grieves us and impacts our entire community.

We endorse the report's recommendations and stand in solidarity with the women who courageously brought these matters forward. True integrity embraces transparency. So then, now that we've kind of told you all where we stand and what this is about to be about, I'm going to hand it over to Emily to intro us into this conversation a little bit. Take it away.

And so even though we're talking about this particular situation, it has broader and deeper implications for how we move well in this space. And that's really what we want to do at Bodies Behind the Bus. Um, is we want to, Guard the trust that is given to us by storytellers by listeners. Well, um, and we also want to model that accountability and integrity.

Um, well, for the people who are here and then and then also we want to acknowledge that like, this is like, the 3 of us have a relationship, um, we have relationships with storytellers. We have relationships with people in the community, but. if you're listening to the podcast, like that is not community.

Um, and, and so there is this community kind of feeling to, you know, we have these shared experiences and we relate to one another, but, but we have to be able to, to set things in the right places. In our lives and in our hearts and, and to be able to do that, because that helps us have that accountability and integrity.

Um, and, and so what we want to do is kind of talk about the specifics and also zoom out at the same time so that we can say, what, what do we do when a situation like this happens? How do we, um. Give space for people to be accountable and change. And like, we want people to have third party investigations. We want people to, we want, we want the churches that our storytellers tell about to fix it, right? That's what we want. Or we want them to.

Stop existing like one or the other right and and so we we want people to change because these things hurt The people in these communities the people who come to us with their stories because these things hurt people we want people to change and so we want to give space for that and balance that with that does not mean just like Minimization, carte blanche, forgiveness, and ignoring patterns of refusing to be held accountable.

And, and so, and so how do we do that, and how do we do that as we're navigating people that we know in real life, or people that we know from social media, or podcasts, or platforms, or whatever, and what is our responsibility as a platform? Um, you know, one of the things that is at the beginning of every episode is Jay saying, we made a decision at the very beginning not to monetize. And, and because of that, like, the purpose of Bodies Behind the Bus is to give storytellers their voice back.

To give a chance for people who have been told that what happened to them did not matter, was not that bad. The chance to say what happened and for other people to listen and come alongside and say, What happened to you is not okay. I'm so sorry and to call for accountability in that and because of that we feel like we have a unique responsibility to speak to this situation because what has been happening is people saying that wasn't that bad like it. It's not that big of a deal.

You're, you're blowing it out of proportion. And we're watching those same dynamics that our storytellers tell from evangelical organizations and churches happen again in this space. And so, and so how do we use our platform and steward that well to respond to that as we're watching it in these overlapping communities?

Um, and maybe they've, they're, they haven't even read it and not putting stock into, you know, I do commend, uh, T and E for, for, for actually bringing net grace on and the fact that the entire report is online and available is commendable.

And you should go read it, but that group was brought in for a reason and that group, which is a professional organization that does this for a living, uh, that is unbiased, uh, was brought in and they're, um, they are, they have access to more information than all of us do. And so the recommendations that they make, and I know we can talk about kind of how those, those reports go, but the recommendation, make, uh, recommendations that they make is.

What we really need to pay attention to because they're they're looking at not only interviews, but countless documents or emails or whatever it may be that was provided to them and that individual or team of individuals unbiased professional credentialed. Are doing the work through their professional experience to make recommendations that are right and should be made. And the biggest thing I'll say about online spaces that I've noticed is that, and I'm, and I'm guilty of this too.

We grew up and, and spaces. Especially Christian spaces where we were conditioned to respond and react a certain way to church, to church leaders, to how we worship, to how we pray, to how we view church leaders, to how we view church building or church structures or church growth. And, and as we get into these spaces, we're all guilty of trying to replicate that in some way, because that's how we're conditioned.

It takes a lot of work, especially for me, as a white male, you know, if you don't know, uh, in my forties, I was going to say middle age. I don't want to say middle age because I'm so young in spirit. The way that I was raised

Put me first it did and as a kid and as a teenager and as a young man I didn't think twice about that, but the work I had to do a lot of work I still have to do a lot of work to not only decenter myself, but also just say My biases are there and when I read reports like I do in the team report or when I engage in situations that, um, other situations, I always want to make sure I'm asking myself what lenses am I looking at this through and then what is their world

experience and how are they experiencing things and laying all of that down to listen more and to be aware that I will be predisposed to read into things because of how I grew up and how I was raised. And that's a constant evolution in my own life. And what all I'm trying to say with that is that, like, this is a perfect example, an opportunity for all of us to realize. We are going to approach this situation with a bias that we have to lay down.

And we have to trust organizations like NetGrace when they come in, that they're not only doing the work, but that the work that they're suggesting or the recommendations they're suggesting are healthy and good and things that we should strive for as organizations and as a community of faith.

And it is a sign of wisdom when an organization brings in a third party. Now, what you do with that report is actually when like the rubber meets the road. But it is a good thing for people to be getting these. And I want us as.

The next whatever it is the next iteration of wherever we're going as the church to really normalize this and to encourage it and not look at it as something to be afraid of, but look at it as an opportunity for us as people to hold the organizations, the churches that we love accountable so that we can protect each other, protect each other.

The spaces that we are in, um, with that, I think it's really important for us just to acknowledge that a lot of the online discourse right now surrounding this new evangelicals report is talking about read the report and form your own opinion on it. And that is not how you read. One of these reports. You read this report to see the opinion of the expert.

So just so everyone knows the first half of an investigation or a report, at least all of the ones that we have seen, and we have seen many, and we have even participated in one as an organization. Every time the first half is the accounts of the people involved, that does not mean that it is what happened. It means these are the factors that we are taking into place. This is into account.

This is the testimony we are taking into account as we move into making recommendations for this organization. It is not just the first half of the report that investigators are taking into account. They are getting. Going through and receiving, hopefully, if the organization is being transparent with, with NetGrace or whoever the investigator is, thousands and thousands of documents as well, voice notes, texts, DMs, emails.

They have all of that, that they're going through as professional experts, credentialed and making judgments based upon all of that evidence. None of us are. Are going to have all of that evidence when we are reading a report. That's why it's very important to pay attention to the last half of a report. And it is not our job to have an opinion about what it is.

The recommendations are, it's our job to have an opinion, whether we feel like we have the capacity to walk alongside an organization in accountability, and we feel like that's something we want to commit to as either a donor or follower or supporter, or if this feels appropriate. Too egregious or like too much and we want to walk away and take our funds elsewhere. That is your decision when you are reading a report. It is not our place to decide whether we think it's a big deal or not.

It's our job to decide what happened, right? It's our job to decide it should be. Do we want to invest here deeper and hold these institutions accountable? Or do we want to walk? That's that's your responsibility as someone reading it. Um, Emily is going to give us an analogy now that I think will help make this all click into place for listeners.

It's how we think about protecting the mission and the ministry versus like Protecting the people all of those things are the water that we swim in growing up, right? And so and so what if we find out like I mean there was a toxic nuclear spill Up river and we got to stop swimming in that water, right? And so we stop swimming in the water and we leave it but that toxic nuclear spill it got inside us and And we have radiation poisoning that is, that is doing damage inside of us, right?

And so we go to the doctor and we tell the doctor our experience and what happened, and the doctor listens to us. And then they run tests and they consult experts and they, they, they use the combination of these assessments that are That are data and, and, um, research based, right? That, that they have a track record of proving out, right? And, and they use the combinations of, of our own description of what's going on with us and what we experienced.

And then, and then the assessments and consults and, and their own expertise and experience and objectivity that we do not have. That's why you call in a third party because, like, you're, like, my best friend is a physician. She will not be my doctor. She will not be my kid's doctor because she can't have objectivity. And so, and so she'll say, here's who you need to go see, right? Because that's being responsible and caring for me as a physician and as a friend.

And so you need that combination of. Of data and assessment and expertise and experience and objectivity to get a correct diagnostic and then when you get the diagnostic, then that comes with a treatment plan. And that treatment plan is for your sake. Right? And also for the sake of the people around you. And and so.

And so what is happening a lot right now, um, that we're seeing with the T& E report but that we also have seen in other situations is people are saying, okay, but listen, do you really have radiation poisoning? How do you know? Like, I don't think you do. Like, you're not glowing, and so it can't be that big of a deal. You don't have a third eye, so it can't be that big of a deal, right? But like, radiation poison is hidden inside you.

You don't know it's a big deal until it until it takes over your whole body, right? And, and so, until you start getting tumors. And, and so it is not the job of, of other people to be like, well, let's just, listen, I know that you went to the doctor, but like, give me the test results. And I haven't been to medical school. I made a C in high school biology. I'll decide how big of a deal this is.

Like that, that's, I know that's like an extreme analogy, but, but that is what it is like to someone who has been through this process and they've finally gotten a diagnostic and a treatment plan, and then people come into the conversation and say, it's not a big deal. We don't need to do that. Like that treatment plan, it's going to mess up these other plans. Well, like, sorry, those other plans are not as important as the health of the body, right?

Those, those, we cannot do those other things well if we're not healthy. And in fact, it's, it's going to prevent us from doing what we say we want to do. Like, if we say what we want to do is build these new, healthier spaces for people who have come out of trauma, who have come out of toxic spaces, to come into them and have a soft landing, we cannot build those things. If we're unwilling to hear a diagnosis, a diagnosis of our own unhealth and take the steps necessary to get better.

You know, I, I'll hold them accountable personally, like, are you going to follow, are you going to make those, are you going to make the changes that Grace has suggested? And, and, you know, it's a great, we had a storyteller recently, or two storytellers that they had a Grace invest, they had several investigations, and the church didn't. They didn't make the changes. They sanitized the investigation. They hid things in the investigation.

All of those things, or I'm sorry, they hid the results, the results and the actions, and they sanitized it. Those are signs of an unhealthy place. And those are a sign to me personally, where if you're invested, you need to make a choice of saying, Do I stay invested in this church or organization, or do I move on because they're not demonstrating integrity, they're not demonstrating integrity, and, and, and wanting to desire either change or repentance.

In that situation, so I view it as that's, I think the, I think the comments that I look at are like, what are you going to do with this? And how are you going to make the survivors and the victims whole in this process? That's the big question that we all should be asking about, about any, any type of organization that goes through something like this, what's going to be done. And that to me is where the real work is. And I don't.

Again, I don't know enough about, like, like how many, there's so many different comments.

But when people start coming in, and this is just from experience from storytellers, especially in these spaces, and they start minimizing it, I mean, just put yourself in a position of, if you are someone who wants to minimize this, put yourself in the position of a female survivor who has experienced church abuse from a male spiritual leader and how these comments that are being made are very similar to what they've experienced.

I mean, I can speak to it, to John's story, to what she experienced at our church. How triggering and how detrimental to those Fellow, if you still call yourself a Christian, brothers and sisters in Christ, it is for them. And that's why, like, just don't make the freaking comment. Like, if you have that aggressive of an opinion about it, save it. Save it. It's not needed. Like, we don't need that. And I think that's where, like, empathy, even though empathy is like a bad word right now.

Not to us. Yeah. Not

Whatever the board decides to do in this situation, and then we, we can hold the board and those accountable if, if they don't follow those recommendations, but my freaking comment doesn't matter, not that I would ever make a comment, but it doesn't matter. So,

Um, where do we fit in this and how do we honor The Adele and Sherry, the whistleblowers for T& E and how do we also honor the process of what it looks like to get a third party report and to need the space to make the changes and what does it look like to hold Thank you. like friends, friendly platforms to us, accountable. All those things are conversations behind the scene.

And on top of that, I, I carry into this, I think all three of us, I think our entire advisory board carries into the conversation, our own trauma from multiple other experiences. And something I have been thinking about a lot is I think Jay, you were actually on this call when I experienced abuse. In our church. And I was a staff member and the abuse was verbal, emotional, narcissistic, spiritual. It was not sexual. It was not physical. I was not touched. When I experienced that.

Even some of our closest friends did not think it was a big deal. I mean, Jay, I feel like you were on this call. I'm not positive. But I remember sitting on a call with Jay, I think, and one other person who I thought was one of our best friends. And that person was like, And it was a dude. Johnna, like, I believe you, but I also think there's two sides to every story. And like it, like, basically, he minimized it.

It was like, I'm sorry, like, I could tell it was like, he's sorry that it impacted me so much, but it's like a me thing and I just need to get over it was the vibe. And that did flesh out to be that. Vibe for that person, but that hurt Probably more or so uniquely Comparatively to the abuse itself.

So like when I read in this report this week that she had a panic attack in the car because of aggressive driving and then I see and yelling and the silent treatment and all these like very problematic things. Like, yeah, maybe he had a bad day and maybe that was like, it was bad judgment. Like I'm not going to minimize that that was bad. When I read that, I think about myself and in my own story, you can hear it on the podcast. It's episode number two.

I talk about my boss calling me and screaming at me and that afterwards I was like shaking for 24 hours. And I'm not exaggerating when I say that, I could not stop shaking. And that's when I use the line that Erin told me, like, you, like, when something like this happens to you, it's like you've gotten a car accident, like your body goes into shock. And I read that, like, I saw that on paper when I read this. And then I saw people doing to her what I had done to me in my real life.

And I had multiple panic attacks this week, because it's so triggering. And I'm not exaggerating. We are a platform of survivors, our listeners are majority survivors, the people that we are on the phone with for hours and hours every single week are survivors and the people reading those comments.

A lot of them are survivors and it devastates me to watch what we, why we, why many of us followed New Evangelicals was because they were willing to stand up and call evil what is evil and good what is good in situations where a lot of people wouldn't do it. They wouldn't pay that cost. And now I'm watching a platform that is not taking accountability.

That said a half sorry that said I'm sorry for my complicity not I'm sorry I did this that said I maintain I was well intentioned not this really messed up my friend This person I'm saying is my friend It really messed up her life and I'm going to pause and do whatever I need to do to make it right We're not seeing that and what we're seeing is comments Dehumanizing and minimizing, and we're seeing a platform engaging those comments in a way that says that they agree.

And that is something that I will not be quiet about, and that Bodies Behind the Bus is never gonna be quiet about. It's unacceptable, and it's gotta stop.

They feature small trust busters of leadership that over time, if left unchecked, not only result in misconduct, such as RV's allegations, but in further harm mismanagement and the very patterns that T and E's mission seeks to remedy. That is Gold, that is gold for this organization. They now have words for what they have been, how they have been operating, and they have a diagnosis and a treatment plan in the recommendations for how to remedy that.

That is not the only time that the grace report calls this out. They say. In another part, during the findings of behavioral misconduct, however, certain concerning patterns of behavior of individual one, as described by multiple witnesses and observed in interviews with grace investigators, they saw the behavior with their own eyes, while they may not constitute behavioral misconduct in themselves, contributed to the credibility determination here in. Y'all, this is not up for debate.

This isn't a question. And what we're watching right now is a community decide that they don't agree with the doctor's treatment plan, and they're going to go ahead and rub some essential oils on it and call it a day. Like, no! Yeah.

Um, a crisis of is anyone who they say they are did, did the faith that raised me, did the, did those people actually believe anything that they were saying, right? Because we watch evangelicalism nationally in politics and culture and all of the things in, you know, the abuse crisis of my faith heritage and, and, and we see people demonstrating over and over and over again. That what they, what they say and their calls to accountability only apply to the people on the other team.

And they don't apply to us. And, and people are desperate for, for someone to say, I believe this even if it is my quote side. I believe this even if it costs me things on my platform. I believe this even if it's my friend. And, and you know, we're, we're this community of survivors who, who are actually still undergoing this trauma.

Like, if you're like us and you grew up conservative evangelical, and, and you're watching everyone you ever knew abandon everything they ever said for the sake of a narcissistic lunatic in politics, like, that's an ongoing trauma. Right? And, and so we're in the middle of this ongoing trauma. And, and, you know, when you're in the midst of trauma, when you're dealing with the aftermath of trauma, little things are big things, especially when it's a pattern. Right?

Like, if, you know, I have, I have kids from trauma in my class and, and for those kids not getting a snack at a time that they really want to snack is a trauma response. Not, not, not getting to have a turn feels like not, that's not a big deal. Like, you can wait a turn. Like, it's not your turn today, it's your turn tomorrow. If, if your brain and your body are reeling in that trauma, of not being sure that you're safe, not being sure that your life is going to follow a pattern of safety.

Those little things are a big deal. And so what I think is so damaging is people saying, well, you know, RV was just triggered. Like that doesn't mean like, Oh, this person was just triggered. So like, I'm off the hook on that. It wasn't my fault. No, it means you have a greater responsibility. To know what you are doing, if you are going to be involved with people who have been traumatized in that way.

If you are going to speak about what it looks like to build something that is safe and that is healthy, you have a greater responsibility to be safe and healthy as much as it was within your power, right?

Like, if I have traumatized kids coming into my classroom, and they're losing it because of something that happened that triggered them, And, and I have not done the work to educate myself, to get outside assessments, which I do all the time, to bring in experts, to teach me how to respond correctly and to regulate myself and take myself out of my, and my feelings and my defensiveness out of the situation so that I can do everything that I can to be safe for them, because

my most important job is to create a place where they can leave whatever I Whatever they're coming from to come be safe with me And if you're a leader if you have a platform if you have a voice if you have a microphone if you have a book in this In this conversation of people who have left these unsafe spiritual places It is your responsibility To do everything you can to make what you are doing Safe for the people who are coming in and and if I bring in one of our specialists

and they say, hey, you need to change what you're doing here for this kid. And my response is, listen, I'm a good teacher. I'm not going to do that. Like, I didn't mean for that to be a problem. And so it's not. I should get fired like for that because I'm, because my job is not to defend myself.

My job is to educate myself, to regulate myself, and to lay down myself as a person who has decided to take on the responsibility of leadership in this situation for the sake of the people that I'm leading. And that's not just true in an elementary school classroom, it's not just true in a church, it is true anywhere where you have influence over people.

You know, pain in our own lives, but like, even like in a job setting, if you have a healthy job, like it happens all the time where people, you'll be doing something and then you get a training and you realize, well, I was doing this wrong and now I need to approach this situation differently. So I think what shocked me the most about this situation is they do, again, I'm not like an, again, I'm not like an expert on this, but it does the defensiveness.

that stance that has been taken, it does kind of shock me because I, I, I look at it as this is a wonderful opportunity to model to everyone, to everyone in the community, what it means to get one of these assessments slash investigations done and how to correctively move forward as an organization or an entity in a healthy way. And like, that's, I think the thing that shocked me the most. And, and hopefully.

And my hope is that they do start to model those suggestions and we start to see those things. It doesn't replace the fact that you have multiple individuals that are, that were harmed and remain in a position where they're hurt. And, and, and there does not seem to be, at least in current state, a path to where they are being addressed, how, in my opinion, how they should be addressed. And so that does break my heart. And it, and it makes me sad because.

You know, God, man, there's so much pain in this community. The last thing that we need is more platform building and book deals. Not that book deals are bad or conventions or conferences, and not that those things are bad, but we don't need to build that to be our emphasis. Our emphasis needs to be healing, like how do we love and heal together as a community and respect and see each other? And to be honest, another thing we should be thinking is, what do we really believe?

And how does that, how does that actually translate into a way to where we can love the basic principles, love, love our God, if we still love God and love our neighbor and, and how are we doing that? So I always just get. I get it out a little bit because I see a lot of platform building and a lot of things where I'm like, it makes me uneasy or I'm like, ah, just feel uneasy because that's where we came from. And again, those things aren't bad. Like books aren't bad. Conferences are bad.

I, I've read a lot of books and I think some of the conferences out there are great. It's just that it, it, I don't, if that's our emphasis, then what are we really doing? What are we doing any different than where we came from? So

And a whole other thing that I would love to see all of us do is just take more accountability for doing the work for ourselves. Like you're not getting all of the information you need from bodies behind the bus. Like if, if your entire engagement with If abuse in the evangelical church is just through one or two stories a month from bodies behind the bus, then that is not the work. It's good work. It matters to listen to these stories.

And I actually think if more people were listening to the survivors that share on this podcast, I think that would actually be really, really life changing for a lot of people. It can't be all. You have to actually hear those stories, and then you have to do the inner work and the educating of yourself for how you move forward, and it can't be the responsibility of one platform. It cannot be the responsibility of one platform.

Very well spoken white dude or anyone very well spoken anyone like it needs to be your own work and that should be empowering because you're not at the whims of any random platform or person you have control in your own life to learn and to grow and to heal and then to move in your in real life communities from that space of health. So, I don't, I don't know where I was going with that outside of that.

And we want it breaks my heart because there's so much, there's so much they've experienced, but like the investment that they've made to be like, hell no, like this is my voice and like I'm getting my story back. And the investment that they've made is just, they've done, they're doing the work. We got an email today, uh, from a storyteller who just listened to a story. That we that recently posted, and he was just saying he was just like, thinking, like, this story was great.

Like, uh, all the things that he that he took away from the story and, and, and I think he even suggested, like, you know, he'd be willing to talk to other storytellers, like the work that people are doing just. Everyday people like the people that are listening this podcast, the people that are caring about these situations like that's where our hope is like, that's the stuff that should be happening. That's the stuff that we need to be celebrating and recognizing.

Those are the voices that matter because those are the voices where they're in the trenches trying their best. Best to make sense and move forward out of a situation that was horrific in so many ways. Um,

And we have been sold a lie in American evangelicalism that the work is throwing tithes in the tithe plate, whatever that is, offering plate, when it goes by. And you know, you have all this It's weight and stake in your pastor having done the work and also being educated on everything and also having integrity. Everything in your life and your journey relies on this one person or this one institution. Like that is, and we're taught that.

And that's what's, that's why we have the stories we have because we are building these. Entire frameworks of our faith and our identity around organizations or charismatic guys or women. We there's any one person like. The, the job of us is to do our own work and to follow Jesus. And if we, if we can link arms with others along that journey, that I still have hope for that.

Like you, if you've listened to this podcast for any amount of time, I think the local church, like I still have not lost hope in how important I believe the local churches. I don't know what that means. I see people. making valiant efforts to reimagine what it looks like. And I think that's beautiful. And I think that's needed moving forward, but like an online persona or an in person persona is not the answer to all of your things. Yeah. Like I still believe Jesus is. From

Like, in ways that hurt me and hurt other people, and I know that I can be wrong about who someone is. And so because of that, like, not that I don't have trust and I don't have faith, but I hold it loosely. And, and I, and I hold on to reminding myself, Hey, I could be wrong. And, and me being wrong is not an indictment on me. It's just a part of human nature and, and the human condition and the facts of the world.

And so, and so if I was wrong about someone, that means that they were dishonest towards me. Not that I made a mistake. I mean, sometimes it's that I made a mistake, but, but that's an opportunity. For me to walk in the truth in a difficult way, which proves out that I actually believe the truth, right? If I was wrong about someone and I learned that I was wrong about them, then that's an opportunity for me to actually be and do and say what I believe that, what I say that I believe, right?

And, and so I hold, and so we have to hold loosely The fact that, like, we can be wrong and, and especially, I mean, the whole point of deconstruction or whatever, right, is, gosh, I was wrong about some stuff. And if we can be wrong, if there are things that we cannot be wrong about, then those are things that we really need to examine. Right? Like, there, there are very few things that I hold really tightly, like, I can be wrong. And, and so I, we've talked a lot about doing the work.

I'm going to give some, some pointers of where to go do that. Like, Dr. Stephen Hassan's bite model of undue influence. Like, go look at the things, and if there are things where, yeah, I, I'm, there are things you're not allowed to question, like, even internally, there are things where, I mean, if this is true about this person, or this institution, or this Whatever, like, that's going to hurt me, man, that's a thing I need to examine. And I need to loosen my grip on.

And in like, giving ourselves the freedom to be wrong gives ourselves, gives us the freedom to learn and to grow and to find rightness. Right.

No matter where you land on the political spectrum, we are all Disregulated, because we are all experiencing spiritual and narcissistic abuse right now. No matter who you voted for, it's happening to all of us. And it's really hard to understand, like, how to function or respond to something like the New Evangelicals news when you're dealing with, like, actual, like, your own personal abuse going on. The reality is, is the, like, life is happening at the same time that We're we're in crisis.

Um, yeah, and I just want to caution us all. I think it can feel like there's too much going on in our nation. So like, why are we even going to care about this one little thing? I feel very strongly that us and when I say us, I mean, it. The church, if you still claim to be a Christian, us not caring about the things that appear to be small are why our nation is where it's at right now. We have

And for the leader's sake, like our lack of engagement in the small things, our lack of being steadfast and faithful in the face of things like this have contributed to complete lack of theology and understanding and character surrounding what we align ourselves with politically.

So. I'm just like, the reality is, is it's all connected and it matters that we bear witness and that we take these things seriously and that we educate ourselves and that we go forward better than we were before we had that information. Yeah. So that's what Bodies Behind the Bus is going to do. We're going to keep telling the stories. We're going to keep getting better. We're going to keep learning things and growing and hopefully becoming better humans and becoming a better platform.

And when we mess up, you know, you guys hold us accountable. You, you can always ask us questions. If you heard something in this episode and you're like, I don't know if I agree with it, email us. Maybe we got something wrong. Like Emily said, we're not going to be afraid of getting things wrong because we're excited to learn and grow. So that's an opportunity for us. And I hope this is an opportunity for you.

If you're listening, if you felt dysregulated, if this has been something that's been really upsetting you this week, I hope this kind of helped give you some good steps forward and also made you feel less alone because Cheers, we're all super dysregulated and very sad about what's been going on this week.