Episode 39 - Charlie Worsham (2-27-17)

get comfortable, man, I am comfortable. Maybe I'm not that. Let me get comfortable to let me hit my shirt off. All right, now, I'm ready. So it's gonna see again too. You have a record coming out in April. I just kind of want to give the overview and then we kind of go around with the whole story first. So you have a record coming out in April, right, that's right? Alright, So new record comes out in April. I know Charlie for I've known you for a few years now, Um,

you are a multi instrumentalist. Well, Mike, how would we describe Charlie people? We've never heard it before. Before we get to the story, I mean super Surrey April, like genius, prodigy kid who's now music. Yeah, like even the greats go way. Charlie Warson was awesome. So now that we've said that, I want we kind of dig into the story so that because people listening like, who's Charlie Warhson. That's who it is. One of the smartest guys I know. Well, thank you. My mom is a school teacher. Oh a

lot to that. What what you teach? Well, a little bit everything. Over the years, uh forever, she taught sixth grade and um she now has transitioned into running the gifted programs back in my hometown. So you're a gifted kid though, right, I did some of the gifted. We had gifted opportunities from i'd say eighth grade on. So there wasn't like a g T in second grade for you guys in Mississippi. Oh not not necessarily. But that's

where my mom comes in. She always had the best like educational books and just she encouraged my curier city, you know. And she she believes in travel as an education, and so I was very well traveled at a young age. Um that and that made a huge difference, you know, were you all as kid. Ah, yeah, because you loved learning or because you the pressure was there. I'd say the pressure was maybe the third on the list that

I did truly love and still do love learning. Um but it also and you can probably relate to this, it was sort of a game, and I love I feel like I have a healthy competitive spirit and it was fun. Two treat it kind of like a game, like a competition, like a competition. Yeah. Yeah, so you you go to school and you grew up in Coronada, Missippi. Right, So what so I could far install a population like seven hundred where I grew up. How big is Granada? Well,

the county is uh about twenty five thousand. I think we're not a county or town. It's both. It's both, and so within the city it's probably fifteen. I could be off on those numbers. I mean, I graduated in a class of uh eighty five, it's closer to to thirty or forty now, I think, Um, so it's it's not a small small town. It's not a big town either, but it's big fish in a little pond kind of town. When you go back to Granada, are you the big deal there? Well, I mean I I have a lot

of good friends there. I have a lot of people that have seen me since I was you know, as they say, kneehi to a grasshopper, and you know, playing banjo at the nursing home and all that sort of thing. And so, uh, I'm I'm very very I feel very loved back home. So that means yeah, so okay, let's start with you as a kid, and so you start to pick up what insuran at what age? Uh. As soon as I struck out at t ball and karate, didn't you know, sparring didn't work out that great, I

realized I should maybe try something else. And it was piano lessons. And that was in kindergarten and I stuck with piano lessons through my high school years. Um and I we would come up here to Nashville a ton soup, yes, part of that travel thing, and we would go to operu Land when the theme park was still around. And this guy, Mike Snyder, he's remember of the Grand ol Opry and and a very beloved part of the country

music story. And uh, he had this show and uh in the American bandstand and he played this song he had written about running over the German shepherd in the driveway and making a coat for his wife out of it, the fur Coat Song. And I went up to Nashville wanting a guitar because I always want to rock out on electric guitar. But my mom's psychology, uh and seeing Mike Snyder combined made me go back to Grenado wanting

a band a banjo. Uh. So you came to phil knowing the piano one thing, to play the guitar, but then you were influenced into the banjo. And what what age was that? Right around second grade? So didn't you at some point in your life and I don't want to go back, but didn't you win like a championship at banjo plan? Yeah? So part of the story with that. I would go to a lot of these small community uh bluegrass days, you know, where they'd have a concert and a contest and you could you could enter all

the contests. They have a fiddle and a mandolin and a banjo contest. And after the banjo, I started picking up other instruments every year or two and uh, here's the deal there there would only be maybe two competitors in the mandolin competition, and there'd be three prizes, and first prize was either fifty or a hundred dollars. So

I mean just by entering, your your accruing money. And uh So I would go clean up these little festivals and enter every contest, and I knew my two songs old Man and and and uh and then I eventually graduated up to the the Mississippi State Fair contest that was a big deal in the state. And um I never won. I never won that contest, and we all felt like it was rigged and all this stuff, you know, but whatever, I never won. And we heard about uh

through another person. We met there this thing in Smithfield, Smithfield, Tennessee, where Mike Snyder grew up, and you're playing the banjo at this time. Yeah, banjo was the main thing. And if if it was a small situation and we'd throw the other instruments in the car and go. But um so we go up to Smithfield and it's the Junior National Banjo Contest and there's not much national about it really in reality, but they have the title and and

uh so I ended up winning. And I wrote a note to Mike Snyder and sort of at the end of the note wrote, you know, It's always been my dream to play the opry. You know, we nudge and nudge and low and behold he with the phone rings one day in the kitchen and my mom's there. She picks it up and he's he's called, and he's asking if I want to come be his guest on the operation. How old are you? Uh? That was I was about twelve,

twelve years old. You go and win the National Banjo competition, because that is what it was called, and you write a note and say, hey, you influence me. That's right from when you mailed it off till you got the call back. How long was that? Gosh, I don't remember. I don't remember, but and it was. I do remember. It was junior National, so it wasn't quite what the full blown National wasn't. And twelve was the cap, the

age cap, so I barely got in. But I remember it was just before my thirteenth birthday, which my birthdays in September, so it would have been I think it was in August. I think it was in August. I played in the contest. Probably would have been that summer because I don't think we could have done a trip like that during the school year. You know, um do we were you waiting for a call from I didn't know what to expect, you know, I still don't stuff

like that. Um, but I'm it was kind of like when you hope for you know, you you're hoping for something for your birthday or for Christmas, or you hope for something on a TV show and you can't really ever count on it happening, but when it does happen, you're just yeah, I knew what was gonna happen, you know. So he says, invite it up to the opera? Do you call him and say, hey, when do you want me to come up? And I'll come up immediately? How does that work? How do you get back in touch

with him? I don't remember, you know what. That was a thing. That was a mom thing and she was so sweet to be as as the phrase goes to the manager in those earlier years, and also very sweet not to be the momager later on, you know, like we we established some some boundaries there which were nice

later on. But when I when you're a kid, you know, and it was different, and so I just remembered we got to go in that, you know, and you've been on the play this, so you know, you get that backstage entrance operate the artist and it's way different, you know. And we've seen the opera a bunch, you know, and um, golly, it was it was pretty magic. So you go out of twelve years old, you play the opera the first

time you play the banjo. I'm assuming since that's what you did, did you sing it all or just get that would come the next year, right right as puberty was hitting, And so there are a couple of songs, uh, from an album I got to make that next year with Mike Snyder's band, Um and I sang on a couple of those tracks, and it's it's not my proudest moment. So how do you get back on the operation again? Did you play so well? Invited you back? Uh? Well, I didn't play it again until I was here living

in Nashville between Yeah, well there was one. There was one thing. It wasn't an opery show. It was some big blue gray as jam day. And we did go back a few months later and I got to jam and play again on the Opery. But it wasn't the opery Opery, you know, it was just the stage, which is still amazing. And then I moved to Nashville at one and the next time I really was on the stage for the Opery Show would have been backing up Rebecca len Howard, who is a super talented singer and

writer and artist and um. She put a few records out how to Hit Her Two and has continued to write, and she's in Steven Tyler's band now UM but also does her own production. And so the next time you went there, you were playing for her. Decide musician. Okay, I want to go back to the kid thing because you were Did you practice a lot or did it come easy as you practiced a lot? It would depend on what it was. The guitar. Uh, well, it never

felt like practicing. You know, I'm not the best practice er. Actually A practiced more now than I probably ever have. Piano. I practiced, Uh tried fiddle for a couple of years. That was not the most successful venture into you know, you you don't want me to be your fiddle player. I just put it like that. But it took a lot more practice because it was a little more foreign to me, not having frets and not having a pick and having to do the bow instead. But uh, guitar

was just always fun to play. And if if picking out chords and solo parts and licks off of records counts as practicing, yes, I practiced a lot, but I wouldn't say I spent a great deal of time, you know, running scales back and forth to a metronome. You know, it was just making trying to make music. When did you feel like you were gonn enough to make a

life out of this. It's it's a hard question for me to answer because I don't ever remember not just thinking that's where it was going, but I don't remember ever going. It just always was the next thing in front of me, you know, it was whatever came next, And and it got more and more. I got more and more involved, and it got more and more serious, and it was the time to start looking at college options. And I had done really well academically, so I had

some really good offers, especially in state. And then there was Berkeley in Boston, which was ah expensive and and and even with scholarships expensive still, but in my heart it was just this has to be it, you know. I've been there for a summer program, and I fell in love with it, and fell in love with the people there and and uh, that might have been the point which I officially signed up for this. When you get to Berkeley and it's and have other friends who

went to Berkeley, you know, just crazy music brains. When you get there and you're on other like minded people there there, you know their brains are like yours. Is that strange for you since you've never really been completely surrounded by people like you? It was. It was the best culture shock anyone could have. I mean, you're a kid from Mississippi going to Boston and you're a kid in a small town where there's probably not a lot of what you do happening around you at the level

that you want to do it. So talk about when you get when you get to Boston, you get to Brooklyn, you meet all these other kids who are kind of in the same same place, right, Well, yeah, because it will. In Mississippi, I've had a lot of people who mentored me. So there were there were the guys I played in bars on the weekends with, and they were all in their thirties and forties and better than me. And that

was a gift. You know what I believe in trying to not be don't ever be the most talented musician, and in your band, you know that you're not going to grow that way. And so the biggest shift being in Boston was that everyone it was all the means from all the other towns, which is what is what you're saying, what you're asking. But but the the shift wasn't that all of a sudden was surrounded by people

that were lifting me up. It was that they were doing that, but they were my age, and they had the same story and the same you know future and all its uncertain glory um and it was it's a very international school. And Boston is I mean kind of like when you first went to a Little Rock and

then Austin. It would have been like both of those in one maybe possibly just because I mean the Red Sox one that first my first semester, the Red Sox broke the Yeah they won, and I mean here in mississipp you probably remember this too, or you can of relate to this. It's you know, you get in the car to drive through the parking lot next door in Boston, it's like, man, you're gonna walk. We're gonna I don't care if it's four feet of snow. We're just walking everywhere,

or we're gonna get on the subway. There's a subway, you know, all of that. And you know there's a little literally called North End, and real Italian immigrants here like cutting the salami in the cheese and you can actually it's right off the boat from Italy and you can buy it right here on you know. So it was just this crazy thing and it felt like a

summer camp that never ended because it just wasn't. I mean, it was challenging, but it wasn't challenging in a way that felt difficult because it was so much fun and everybody else was there having so much fun. It was the Disneyland of of being a young musician. It wasn't a crazy competition to you odd, not really, because you know, and the beauty of Berkeley is you find your people and it turns out and the same here in Nashville. All your people, your your your crew. They all have

different talents and do different things. And and if I if I showed up at Berkeley with any chip on my shoulder, it was what I call the three chord music chip, because you know, they're like all these kids who could do this stuff. I'll never be able to do. And I consciously was sort of, WHOA, I don't. I'm curious about that, and I want to know more about it, but I don't want to ever not be excited about G,

C and D. If. If I ever get to a point where I'm not thrilled by the chords and the A, C, D C songs, then I'm doing something wrong, you know. So I sort of had this defensive nature when it came to something that might have felt like competition. It was like, WHOA, that's cool you do that. This is what I do. I love songs that are this simple. And I got to be in a bluegrass band for credit for college credit, and I was a banjo player and there weren't really other banjo players, so I was

just collaborating all the time. It wasn't competitive in that way. And and my major was production and engineering, which I picked because it meant I could go be in these studios with SSL consoles and be around the gear and um all the friends I made there, you know, we we were forced to collaborate. If you had a class and uh production and engineering, your it was a session based class, so you had to go find musicians and a singer and a songwriter which might be the same

person but might not. And you had to budget it out, which meant working with the music business folks. And so you were working with all the other people and and your job is different. Even even down to most of the classes. You would do two projects each semester, one as producer, one as engineering. You'd partner with somebody so for their production prob Jake, you were their engineer, so that there was not a lot of opportunity to feel

cut throat. And now we visited some other schools that were more traditional conservatories, and you could tell because everybody was trying to play this Beethoven piece or something, and there's there there is a definite way to do Beethoven and Mozart right in a way to do it wrong. Um, And you can easily h grade people and order them. And it wasn't But Michael was that movie with the kid in the drums, It was like whiplash on banjo, was like, oh yeah, well, I mean there was there was,

you know, challenges. There was a challenging situation with most of my professors. I mean they pushed us what got you, what instrument got you into Berkley, was it banjo? Uh? I think I signed up on paper for guitar, but I always had the banjo with me and used that as a a way to go. This is something different. I have a friend who went as a vocal that she came out playing the fiddle. Yeah, And so I don't you know ant Yes, I do. I was about to say, I think you're talking about that. Yeah, And

she plays the fiddle. She's so great at the fiddle. And I was talking to her about Birke like She's like, yeah, I went in as a vocal as a singer, and she sings great. She's one of the best singers. She sings fantastic. But she has that fit. I thought she went ever fiddle because she's, you know, so good to fay the fiddle. Uh, let me talk for a second. How about this so blue Apron. You know, not all

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You're thinking about changing it up? If you're bored with home meals right now check out this week's menu. Get your first three meals for free with free shipping. Blue Apron dot Com slash Bobby Cast, Blue Apron dot Com slash Bobby Cast. You love how I gotta feel, I gotta taste Blue Apron A better way to cook, Blue Apron dot Com slash Bobby Cast. All right, so Charlie wash thems here and we're talking about and I'm gonna play something here. Let's we talked about some mystery stuff.

Let me play some Cut Your Groove here. This is from You can buy it now, but the records come out in April. When the needle drives, what you're gonna do, I'm gonna go backwards. Okay, I love it. Uh. This album started in year old stomping grounds of Buston, Texas, at Waterloo Records. I was in between tours and I

was really burned out. And I bought these three notebooks at at Waterloo, and that song and all the songs I wrote or co wrote on the album We're Born in those notebooks and uh, cut Your Groove was I call it my theme song because the whole notebook thing and this album was me sort of working out being human being on one level, but also sort of coming to grips with you know, this is the thing I've always loved, and I somehow got to a point where I was so burned out, I was on the edge

of not loving it anymore. And this is me falling back in love with music. And uh, and that song. I forget the when when exactly it came in the process, but I just remember I was doing these morning pages. I promised myself I'd feel a page every day, and the only rule was telling the truth. And uh, it could be you know, uh, should have gone for a run yesterday, but I didn't, and then I ate pizza and I feel terrible, and that might have been it. And there are a lot of days it was something

that just dumb, you know. But I would do these word games too, where I'd write a word down and and use this the five senses plus the sense of body, um, like if you're trembling because there's it's scary, or the sense of motion, which is sort of car sickness or something, and uh, and based on the senses, you would use that word and just see where it took you. And

I'll put the word groove on paper. And I've gotten in this habit so much that I could actually sometimes write it out, uh, streaming conc just and it would end up rhyming. And it kind of worked like that. And I had a couple of different days I spent with that word, and then I brought to my buddy Oscar, and we started writing this song. And Oscar, you gotta understand,

is younger than me. And at the time I was living in this house that was sort of a musician's hostile you know, which is you see all over town and that's how that's the first house I lived in Nashville was that environment. So you go in and there's pizza boxes, and there's guitar cases, and nobody has anything nice except for all this recording gear and instruments, and you can you can see the priorities. And it reminded me of my journey when I first moved to town.

And so I was drawing on that and the idea of the word groove and where we landed and stuff, and just seeing myself in Oscar and and he was throwing out things and and that's where that song really came from. So you talk about being burnt out? What burned you out? Well you mentioned it twice yea, like spent sixty seconds or so, so it sounds like you've kind of had some sort of like Okay, I'm tired

and now you're back. Yeah, it was. And I used the word burned out because it's it's not the right word, but it's the the closest I can get to what it was, which is, you know, the what was frustrating you? All right? I learned this great definition over the last couple of years. That integrity is when you're insides and your outside match. And I was in a place where I didn't feel like my insides and my outsides matched.

I had spent my life playing music and loving it, and if I worked harder, I was rewarded somehow more for it. And and I could always just go work and get better and and and then it would just all make sense based on that, and and I signed this record deal, and it was amazing, and all of a sudden, this thing that was always my life, just the music and trying to wake up every day and get better and trusting that more or less that if

I do that, that everything else works out. All of a sudden, part of my job and part of the picture, was well, you've got to think about these things, and they might be the photo shoot or the video shoot, or what do you think about this haircut? Or what do you think about these clothes? And then touring, strategy and data DA all this and social media, and then I'm on social media and you know which, I actually took this weekend off of social media and it was

the greatest thing for me ever. I might have to start doing it more because it's comparison is such a a dangerous thing in this business. It doesn't do anybody any good, you know. Uh. And and yet we also have to sort of keep eyes open and see what's on the landscape, you know. And so I was just I ended up in this place where I've been on the road NonStop for eighteen months. I didn't feel like my music was connecting, and I didn't know what was

wrong with me. I thought something was wrong with me. So every time I felt that I would just work harder, get on the hamster wheel faster, you know. And the truth is that it just it just doesn't always it doesn't always go as we plan. And and and I was always right to just think, if I just work on myself, try to get better, it's all gonna work out. And of course I got to manage these other things. But my job is to tell the truth. That's why I ended up writing it on that notebook, even if

I didn't know that at the time. And and so I just got to this place where I was physically exhausted. I was frustrated, and and I was frustrated that it didn't work. I felt pressured to you know, uh, prove my label, right, you know, they had invested all this in me and and in my you know, in my priorities. Here's the other thing. My my happiness was attached to these expectations I had put on myself and that and

that caused pressure. And so when I fell short of those expectations, I didn't think I had earned happiness and I didn't feel like I had done my job. And that just is not a healthy way to try to do a thirty or fourty year career, you know. And and so I took this time and I did a lot of work on myself. And I mean, you've talked about this in your book, and I'll tell you, man.

I mean I've I've been seeing a counselor seeing a therapist for a while now, and I got to go to this place called on site, which is sort of like a six day intensive uh, you know, you check your phone in and everything, and you just work on yourself. And so I've learned so much about myself now. Um, and I don't think I can if we're going backwards to look at this, I can't tease apart this record

and that part of my journey. You know, I've always just been music, music, music, and I needed to take a minute and kind of go, okay, human being, let's look at this. So when do you decide you're gonna like what what is it? Because I've had breaking points for me? What was the breaking point for you? We're like, Okay, something's got to change because I can't go at this pace at least emotionally and mentally and make it like

where was it for you? When I was like, Okay, I gotta take a step back because that's a hard decision to make. Yeah. Well, and some of it, to be fair, was sort of made for me. I mean I have to give my label credit. Chris Lacey my a n R and s BO, who who runs the label. They both sort of said, hey, we're worried about you. You don't seem to be happy. Why don't you go

make Charlie music? You know? And man, that was the greatest gift because I mean, I can't tell you had I been somewhere else, I don't know that i'd still have a deal. I don't know that they that would have been said. It might have been you need to cut these hits or whatever. I don't know, you know, but I know that what they the way they helped me was it was a gift. And I think it all came to a head towards the end of the

fall of Oh my Gosh. I think two fourteen, I was on the CMT tour and it was a great tour to be on. And when tours like this get booked, as you know, they often are booked nine months twelve months in advance. And so the tour was me and Sam Hunt and kept more and between the booking of the tour and the tour, Sam Hunt became I call Elvis, you know, I mean, he was on fire and uh, and my record just kind of ran out of gas. None of this is anybody's fault or plan or anything.

It just that's what happened. But I was locked in to go on after Sam Hunt, and people were coming to the shows rightly, so they were wanting to hear Sam Hunt, and they only got about twenty minutes of him, and then they got me for forty five minutes. And I took it personally, I really did, and that was

not something I should have done. But I walked off stage really angry with myself and and frustrated, ah and not not at Sam, and I wish I could say in every instance, not at the audience, but I just couldn't understand, you know. But now I can see it clearly and the people at the shows. I had no idea that that's how tours get booked, and that's how it was, and that's just how it was, and it's

how it how to be, you know. And I love Sam and I'm a fan, and and yet I had this really difficult job of following him, and and I'd already I was coming off of another tour that was coming off of another tour, and and and somewhere in there too, I also was sort of given the news You're gonna have to go start over with a new record, and my expectations again they were still driving my happiness.

So I'm thinking, what what are you talking about? Man, there's we gotta do two more singles, like this is crazy, And but that's just that's just life, you know. That was just what happened. And uh, And I was really lucky to be on that tour. I was really lucky to have the album and have it connect as much as it did connect. And I just couldn't see it

clearly at the time. And so when that tour was over, we went to Canada that next winter, that next February and did a tour and and then the brakes came on pretty hard. And and it just took me a couple of years. Two Uh. I call it emotional blood letting, you know. I just had to get past the frustrations so that and to a place where I could see things clearly. And and now I'm just I'm happy because I'm happy and I get to do what I love and I'm very grateful for that, and I practiced a

lot of gratitude. Um. But but I don't think my story is necessarily unique because I think, you know, that's the challenge of of when you get a record deal. I mean that's all of a sudden, you're on radio tour and then're on a regular tour and then you're you know, it's just boom boom boom with all these things, and people are looking at you like you're the Coca Cola bottle and they changed the design of the bottle. Only it's not the label on the bottle. This is you.

This is your vulnerability on you know, on speakers and and when you get on stage, I mean, if I if I gained ten pounds and I don't fit in my photo shoot clothes, you know, it's not that's me. It's not some product. And it's just kind of a roller coaster ride. And I think it's I think it's a challenging journey for for most anyone who has that opportunity,

just because it's so abnormal. I mean, if you look back at as far back as Elvis, I mean the guy had to go run out movie theaters at night because he couldn't go to a regular you know what I mean. And that's a whole other set of problems and stuff. All that to say, it's just public professions create abnormal life circumstances and which you know to you have your own experiences that I that some of which I've read in your book, and more of which I know you have, and it's just one of those things.

And and so my goal now is sort of like with cut your group especially, is this is what I've learned, This is how I came to peace with it. And I hope that in telling you all out there that it helps you somehow on your journey. You know, did you come from the line of thought that you come away from this better and stronger because of all the pain as an artist. Yeah, and and I don't mean it to sound but no, I think that, yes. Absolutely.

You know there's that great Leonard Cohen song that has the line the cracks are where the light gets in. I mean yeah, if yeah, I don't think I would be able to appreciate anything that ever might come my way. Uh good, if I didn't have the times when it was withheld from me for whatever reason. You know, do

you think because something I've struggled with? Do you think that you didn't know how to be happy until you really felt what it was like to be sad and you really didn't know what it was like to be sad until you really got sad. Oh? I do think that the two create attention that is necessary. Ah. And you know, for me, the way I the way I see that, the way I interpret that is that, ah, it's okay to be sad, and it's okay to be angry,

and it's okay to be lonely. Um. I don't think that the way we all get hit from all sides with advertisements and you know, everything from social media to TV and whatnot. You know, we're not necessarily encouraged on a daily basis to be anything short of happy, and we sort of you know. I mean, if you look at my Instagram fee, you would think that I have

the most charmed life there ever was. And so we're all on these phones like swiping down and seeing everybody else's rock star version of their life and thinking, well, why isn't that me? And the truth is, man, that is you, and that's them too. But if you if you got past the social media feed, there's also all these other things, and it's okay to feel those things.

And if you don't let those things process themselves. I'd take a boxing class every week if I can, religiously, because I don't care what it is, if it's unfounded or not. I find that if I spend an hour punching the air and punching the the midst of the instructor, a week, I work out whatever frustrations I have in my week goes better, you know. And if I don't do it, I haven't I end up having a weird week.

We are made to process all these things, and I know how like I know, I go deep on this stuff, but check this out. Up until about fifty years ago, if you were a human being on this planet, to keep your housewarming winter, you have to chop firewood pretty much, you know what I'm saying, Or at least two a hundred years ago, you had to get out and swinging acts for a couple of hours every day, and and anger releases itself physically, and that's a healthy way to

get rid of that anger. If somebody died, you didn't send them, you didn't call the corner. You you put them up in the house and hope that the body didn't smell bad. And then you and your friends down the street got out the shovels and dug the hole and buried your friend or your family member. And the sadness was forced you had. You were forced to process those emotions. And it was okay to process those emotions

because it was a part of daily life. But today we're insulated from all of that and we're encouraged to be happy all the time. And I'm sorry, but that just isn't It's what you said you In order to really know happiness and feel it, you you have to know the other emotions too. So you think because they did more exertion back in the day they were able to get more feelings out. Well, I just think it was a more natural use of our our bodies and our our daily routines. You know, I've never heard the

theory before. I think it's interesting theory. I mean, who knows. I mean, a scientist can call in at any moment. I know, I just say, and once it's once, it's out. But I'm really you know, that's that's kind of how I see it, you know, And I try to I try to do what I can to mimic what I imagine would be those natural things. And music is a great thing for I mean, you talked about working through sad stuff, but I would say you you probably agree

that you're fair happy right now. I think I'm an I just don't know if there's ever for me happiness. I don't know if it's real. Well, let's say this, on a given night, you're feeling good, you're feeling happy. Have you ever listened to sad music when you're happy? Oh? Yeah, that's my favorite music. Listen to what I'm happy And some of the happiest people I know love sad long some music. And I think music is one of those natural things. I don't feel as alone when I listened

to sad music. And I think that's why most of my library, right is that like a BPMO, like to hey, one of two of the most powerful words in the English language, me too. That's what music is, sad music, especially it's Merl Haggard is Merl Haggard because he wrote all these great songs saying, yeah, you had a crappy day, me too, you're in prison, me too, you're your mom and dad, me too. You know it's like, yes, yes, some I'm with you. That's what That's what music is.

Somebody's saying I'm with you, man. No. That's why real authentic music cuts through too, because then the everyday landscape everyone seems so pristine because we have social media, we have what everyone's trying to put out there, so we

don't see what's really happening. We know what's happened with us, and we think that this is some sort of anomaly, like we have the only crappy stuff happening to us because we don't hear about anybody else's, we don't see about anybody else, and so there isn't that me too. Until you get music and you actually here and feel the vulnerability of someone and there's happiness me too, And I think you have to go happy. I don't know that. I don't think that's such thing as the one through ten.

And I never say ten and anything. I don't think there's a ten. I think I'm probably the best I've been in a long time. If normal it's a five, I'm at a five point one. That's at that point. One is a big jump for me, just because again, like I think it's a grind forward to prove people's expectations right. Yes, yes, not wrong. The people that men have many detractors, many that want to see me fail because I'm just not the system that's in personal against me.

But I'm not the system that's been here forever. I don't care about them. But it's people that said, hey, we have faith in you. Those are the ones that you want to prove right. It's other people to prove wrong. Yeah, But you know what, even just getting to that point is takes most of some people's journeys. We're all on the journey. And I mean I would ask this of you, Uh is it when you when you don't want to say definitively happy, our happiness. Is there some element there

that for you? I mean, and it's in your mantra I means fight, ground, repeat. I mean, is it that you're waking up every day going I want to try again, I gotta prove it again. Yeah. I have what has been called imposter syndrome, where you don't really feel like you should be where you are, like you think you're you know, eventually you're gonna get caught like I do. I feel like I've been robbing, robbing banks for ten years and someone's gonna be Okay, you're not really that good,

so let's go ahead. You've been a fake the whole time. I was going to pull you back a bit. I've I've felt that too. I've struggled with that too. I still do, and I still have my days where I really have to you know, I have some routines in place to help me with that. But I don't know anybody in this town and in the music business who

doesn't at some point feel imposter syndrome. Because I mean, you and I could go to any of the restaurants right now and the person who'd come up and pour our water is probably a world class singer songwriter chances are, you know, and and that can be both a good and a bad influence on someone in this town. You know, do you believe in luck? I believe in Yeah. I

think there's I mean, I think there's lucky breaks. I think there's I mean, I like to call it coinci God because it's I think, you know, ah, I mean, they say they don't talk politics and religion. I'm just gonna say this. I am a Christian, but I'm not I don't often identify with the angry yelling I hate everybody who isn't like me version of my faith that

I sometimes see on TV, and that makes me sad. Um. But I think that in the way that a twelve Step program comes out of the gate saying we believe in a higher power, it's not any particular religion that they're trying to get at, and they welcome they just they the twelve Step program places great importance on believing in in a divine hand, believing in something that's sort

of greater than ourselves. And um, and I think that luck is a thing, but I believe it's cousins with it's you know, you could say that brothers Osborne are lucky but I know knowing John, He's one of the first people I met when I moved to town. And I know how hard the and TJ have worked, and I can make a case for him not being lucky, but the but the truth is they've worked really hard and some really cool coincidences have also happened, and it all adds up to something that one person might call

luck and one person might just call man. They they freaking did it? You know, and and you know both are true. Both are true, I think. I mean in their case, they know how hard they worked and how talented they are. And John's here for at this point, and so I didn't know. I was having dinner with John somewhat recently, and you guys played together, and I'm a fan of both of you guys, and we were and I was talking about you, and he was like, yeah, Charlie,

I used to play together. But and somebody else played in that band too. Uh Matt Utterback who plays bass for Hunter Hayes, Uh, Donnie fall Gator, Josh Mtheeny. Josh is in a band called Steel Union, and so was Donnie. And Josh also writes for Curb Uh, Kevin Weaver and Kevin is one of my favorite human beings and he's

played drums for just about everybody. Uh, but yeah, that we were all on this band together, and the band you and John Osborne in the same band, which is just as guitar players like you guys are a different level. Oh well I was. I was kind of utility acoustic, so I played you were the utility to think about it, but I always borrowed John stratocaster his first electric and I eventually bought it from him. But let's be honest, that's his guitar forever. I'm just holding onto it for

a while, you know. But yeah, what are you thinking about John as a player? Like what comes to mind? Style wise? Well, he he built his foundation on the true great players, all that go all the way back, and he is a master, uh scholar of the true original greats. He's not founded on his playing isn't founded on something new. It's the new and his playing is his own voice. And I think that's what makes him

really great. And I say what I'm what I'm getting at is John is on a path that lands a guy and Keith Richard's territory or Brian may territory or Angus Young or Malcolm Young territory, which goes to say, those are all guitar players that you don't have to know much about guitar, but you know it's Keith Richards. And if you don't know his name, you know it's the Rolling Stones because you hear Keith Richards and nobody

plays guitar like Keith Richards. Are you hearing a C D C song and you know that's Anguish Young even if you don't know his name, just because the guitar, the actual player has such an original voice. And John is becoming an iconic player. He's not becoming a really good player. He was that a long time ago. He's becoming John Osborne. You know already their records, You know their records not just by TJ's voice, but by his fingers, John's fingers, his playing and uh and I mean he's

been an influence on me. I've always thought of him as a big brother because when I showed up in the town, he had been in town two or three years, and and if we had off time or he played something that sounds you could be like, oh can you show me that? You know. So he's been one of my teachers over the years. Um, I couldn't love him more as a player or as a human being. You

and Vince hell have a relationship? Yeah, how did that start? Oh? Man? Uh? Well, my parents are big Vince fans and they went to see him probably ten times when I was a kid, and ah, and he became quickly became a main influence. I call him my north star. And uh, my first time to really interact with him, he was playing and singing as a guest on my first record, on a song called Tools of the Trade. And it wasn't too long after that that we cross paths again. And oh yeah,

how did you get vincec you on that song? You know? The funny thing about that story is that I want to say a guy named John Grady h is the one. This may be memory failing me, but he's he's old friends with Vince and and my my team and I were asking around to try to see if he would do it. And I think it was as simple as as me getting Vince's number and John going if it wasn't John. What I remember is John said here when because they basically somebody gave me Vince's number and said

call him. So of course I'm thinking, well, this is my hero. I'm gonna call my just call him, just cold call this guy. Okay, sure? And uh and if it wasn't John who gave the number, I remember him saying he probably won't answer, but I guarantee her call back. Like he might not be able to pick up the phone, but he'll call you back. He calls, and I've since found out that he is a he's a telephone call guy.

He's not really a Texter, you know. And uh so I called Vince and I left the most awkward voicemail and the history of voicemails. And next day he calls me back and we set up a time and now I'm headed to his house to his studio and and it and it happens, and you know, time goes by, and the next thing I remember was getting to uh see him at the opry. Uh and then he did this really cool thing. You know, anybody that doesn't know,

if you know Vince, you already know this. But if if you don't know Vince, he is the most gracious and pay it forward human being in country music period. He has always lifting someone up and mentoring someone. It's guesting on someone's record, and uh, and he decided, rather than just go do his normal tour, he would do a couple of runs where he brought out Ashton Monroe, Jenny Gill and myself and Vince would sing a few songs and then we'd each sing a few songs all

in one show and being a band together. And so then, you know, a couple of years go by. Now I'm on a bus with my hero and sharing the stage with him. And I remember Greg Almand came to one of the shows and I'm sitting here playing. I'm looking over and there's Greg Almand. I'm going, holy crap, you know, and uh. And then we just got to know each

other better and better. And it never quite feels normal because he's my hero, but it's comfortable and and he's a true mentor and a true friend, and I can reach out to him for advice and and he he'll call me to do gigs. A couple of weekends ago, I was out on the road as his guitar player. And I guarantee you he does not need he doesn't need me to help him on guitar. He doesn't need another guitar player. He's good and if he does, you know, the guys that he normally has in his band or

world class. But but I think he just has this intuition and this desire to find people who are up and coming and give them a little boost and give him some confidence and a leg up. And and does that motivate you want to be that person? Absolutely? Absolutely? Uh? And And for me, it's it's it's it. It looks different, you know, but you know when when I if I'm in a room events, he's been a lot further down

the road than I have. But if I'm in a room with kids in a high school who are curious about this, then I've been a lot further down the road than them, you know. So that's maybe my version of it. Or if it's somebody who literally just signed up their first record deal or their first pub deal, you know. Um And not in a way of hey listening, listen here, kid, let me tell you how it is. It's just more like, how are you feeling? How are you you know, really seeing that person and looking him

in the eye, and like are you are you? You hanging in there? You got any questions? You're good? You're good, you know, um? And and and I get. Here's the deal, though, I get more out of that than anybody. You you talk about this in your book because you did the scholarship in your hometown, and you were saying, you know that you almost felt guilty about picking this other than instead of some other thing. Oh man, you might have heard me, because I was going, what are you talking about?

Talking out loud to you reading your book. Uh, you weren't anywhere near at the moment. You can hear. But but it was this thing where no, man, that's exactly what you should do, because nobody knows that journey better than you. If you go to your old high school and you see a kid that you helped pick, I mean, come on, man, that's and this goes into my theory about chopping wood and burying the people down the street.

Is it's natural to want to form low community and local even though you're not in Arkansas right now, that's still your local community. You grew up in it, you know it better than anybody, and so you are uniquely able to help. For my whole issue was if, like

Charlie talking about, was so with me. When I would find things to help, I would start to feel guilty because I was only helping things that kind of helped me, And so there was a lot of I'm only doing this because this certain X helped me whenever I was a kid. You know, I I helped kids get glasses and see because I needed help to see when I was a kid. So there was this guilt that came along with that, like I'm only helping me, and I

still struggle with that. It's like, why am I only helping I go to hospitals, I do musicians on called. I was in the hospital for a long time as a kid. Yeah, and so it's like I think I wrote, why don't I just help birds? You know, I've never not affected by any birds. Why don't I just help birds that are strong link to live? It's it's a it's a weird thing to feel selfish from giving, and there's that there's a guilt behind it. But yeah, that's for me. That's a struggle for me. I wish it weren't.

I know what you mean, But the way I see it is that you're doing exactly what you should do. That's I mean, it'd be it'd be like we're sitting here talking about how great events is for giving young singers and songwriters a leg up. It wouldn't quite make sense if all of a sudden everything he did had something to do with vaccinations in this remote corner of the world, because you're thinking, well, events and I don't.

I don't get it. You know, he's he he has this god given talent, and while he's used it in many ways that are amazing, and writing songs like go rest Town on that Mountain and the songs he's written in tribute to Merle Haggard and George Jones and his father and have help so many people that to me is one of the best ways to use your talent.

It's also not a bad way to use your talent to just go make cool records period, even if all they're really If if one particular record is I feel good and I want to tune out the world, awesome, that still is using your talent for a positive thing. But I think that the greatest use of the talent is to take that expertise and and fold it back into itself with someone else, which is what you do with this stuff in your hometown because it's what you know.

You can sit at that hospital bedside and late to the person in it better, the kid in it better because you've you've been there, the way that Vince can sit on a bus with me and encourage me at two in the morning going down the highway to the next gig because he's been in my shoes and that's and so for me too. It's sort of like if I do something, if I go to Berkeley and I speak to Berkeley students, that's the best use of my talent to do something charitable, you know, because I've been there.

When you see guys like John Mayer, who is my favorite artist, Yeah, is he at a level it's so much higher than these other players that you see a right Like, is he, in your mind the best artist player out there now? He is one of my favorites. I gravitate to his songwriting as much as anything, but

that's not to discount as playing. And and I was watching an interview I've also geeked out on all the interviews he's ever done, and he was saying something about his time at Berkeley, and he was looking at the players around them, the other students, and they could do all this little stuff. And he was sharing in the interview that he had this inner dialogue with himself. Wow, I could sit I could go learn these things and play like this and probably played a ten twenty people max,

you know. Or I can take this knowledge and channel it into a way that I can play for you know, millions of people. And he's certainly to me for my whatever bet I would place is that he's definitely in his class as in high school class of artists. The best bet too, as a player really become an iconic player. People buy John Mayer records because of his guitar playing. People by certain guitar pedals and certain guitars and models of guitars because of John Mayer. So yeah, I mean

I think that proves that to be true. And but the same is true of Ed Shearing, and Ed's playing is totally different. You can compare Ed and John. Uh, they're they're apples and oranges, you know. But John is certainly, in my book, yeah, one of the best to me. You know, when you have guys like you know, BB King, or you could go down the list and they and and he's the only guy in by that they can play with them, that's right. I mean, Derek Trucks does

it too, you know. But but I don't know. There's actually a little older than Mayor though maybe so you know, I don't know, Hey Google, um, but you know he's he's turning on a whole different audience. Then I'm not a whole different audience. Um. And and here's the thing. We're at least thirty years away from seeing if either of them reach BB King or Earl Scrug status. And by that, I just mean I'm sorry man, that probably nobody since BB King has inspired were people to pick

up a guitar. Have you listened away to a John Mayor and stuff? I haven't. I saw it and and I grabbed it, and I have not made time to listen to it. I don't want to halfway listen to it. It's funny to hear the little baby King shout out. He throws in, Yeah, Mike College is guy's younger than John here? That's crazy. You know what he doesn't have that he doesn't have the pop lineage to be on

the radio. And that's where that's what makes John and unique animals his it's his songwriting sensibility and his playing and his singing. And he also still lacks fifteen So yeah, maybe that's why I was like he's young. It's funny, he's he's come to Berkeley before. He came to Berkeley when I was there and spoke and it was great. And and he's even said things at times that contradict investing in social media. Don't don't worry about that, just

get good. And that's true. I think I think that was right for him to say, maybe to the audience at the time, but you have to you can't deny that he is a very savvy social media and he knows he knows what he's doing. So you look around now and then I want to get back to the your record in a few minutes. But if you look around now in Nashville, like, who do you see artist wise? Player wise, We're like, okay, that's cool, that's cool. Maybe

even people will know him. I mean I have questioned asking you're not forgetting anybody, but who comes to mind? You look around, you go, okay, maybe that hasn't popped quite yet, and I can see something there. Well, I was gonna say John Osborne and the Brothers, but um, people are starting to know about them, and and do you know about them? Uh? This is tough because it isn't on the spot. I mean, Emily, he's doing it

because we got nowhere to go. Yeah, well, I love I'm just gonna say names, and this doesn't necessarily have bearing on how popular and are known or unknown they are. These are people I love that I will go out of my way to go see Uh the time Jumpers with Vents, but also Andy Reese. And Andy is not in his thirties and he's not gonna go be a pop star anytime soon, but he's just one of the best there is and the that same is true Paul

Franklin on Steele Uh anytime. And also in this category of I'm not talking about up and coming, it hasn't hit yet. It's just they've chosen a path where if you know, you know, and if you don't, whatever, they they're already well into their career. But Shawn camp when he plays at the station end, Jack Pearson when he plays at the station in or third and Lensley, he

UH is a big influence on Derek Trucks. Actually, anytime Derek plays in town, Jack Pearson comes out and he plays like a cheap guitar through a cheap aunt with one pedal and a busted cable and he sounds better than anybody. And uh and eighteen South, which is John Randall and Jesse Alexander and Guthrie Trapp is in that band. Another friend from Berkeley, and I even knew him from Mississippi. He's got family Mississippi and I knew him when he

was thirteen and I was seventeen or whatever. But Johnny Duke, and he's been on stage with Ashton Monroe and LeAnn Wilmack and on record with a little Big Town. He'll play a show here and there. Brent Cobb, who put a great record out last year and has written songs for folks. I've written songs songs on my new record with him, and uh, man, it's so funny. It's hard to say because I spent so much in my time and energy seeking out people who and this is probably

to a fault. I should look more for the new thing, but I kind of make a habit out of trying to go find the old masters. There is no right or wrong answer, Charlie, but no that, but this is true. Like I I wouldn't be the best person to ask because I'm not looking for that, you know, I'm looking Uh, I'm looking for I mean I've had the chance to write with um uh oh am, I spacing on his names. Two guys now, all right, mac Davis and Bill Anderson.

Mac Davis wrote in the Ghetto by himself pretty much. Ah. I mean, Bill Anderson has had a hit in every decade since the fifties. And it's not like I'm gonna get with these guys and We're gonna create the new hit of the century. Necessarily. It's that I know, if I sit across the room from those guys, I'm gonna pick up more ah, then I can with anybody else. Do you ever feel like you were born in the wrong generation? I have at times. I have at times, but I don't think so. I think I'm born at

the right time, you know, I don't. I don't know that they're there are as many like me, like minded, you know, in in some of some of the regards. But um, no, I think I was supposed to be here now. You know, I don't know dent why yet, But I think I'm supposed to be here. Now. Do you think we ever know why? Um? Maybe not. I need to answer right now. I need to know myself. You know. I think I think we spend a lot

of our time trying to figure that one out. And some of us maybe get there, and some of us don't, you know, play this song here Southern by the grace of guy, I'm telling y'all, it's still ConTroll. It's stuff to me, like the record here countries just country goes

and can't country me? Hey tell that song, oh man, I wrote that in uh at Luke Dick's house with Luke and Chaine McNally, and uh, it's uh, there's a great old Tom T. Hall song called country Is, and it's sort of it was Tom T. Hall's way of he was here in Nashville at a time when a lot of people were writing a particular kind of song and up in arms about what's country and what isn't? Yeah, almost like almost like and uh and I think that song is my version of going, hey, guys, look, I Uh,

my uncle cuts his hair with dogs. Shears once crapped my pants at a banjo competition when I was not the not the one I won. This was the actual national banjo competition. Uh, when I was like twelve or whatever. Her and you came out country me, you came out of country that man I'm sorry, you know, or whatever,

but it's just like just to say. But equally country is the guy who grew up in inner city Chicago and it's just doing his thing or whatever, you know, and it's like, are we really going to arm wrestle about this, you know, like we can we can waste our energy, you know, but this, this is I grew up and and the music side of that song reminds me less of country music, uh and more of everything else. For example, it feels very led Zeppelin to me. Um, which is the song ramble On by Them was an

influence on on that. But then it also stuff that predates what we consider country. The he he that's straight rip off of a guy named Jimmy Martin who is known as the King of bluegrass. And I'm a big Jimmy Martin fan because when I took banjo lessons to my teacher, happened to be his banjo players, a sunny mountain boy that was what he called his man guys. And so it's sort of like that's my version of what Tom t Hall I think was saying, which is

countries what you make it. It's all in your mind, it's all in your heart, it's living in the city, it's living in the country, it's it's loving your neighbor. And you know, it's just let's can can we please get past arm wrestling this and just speak our truths? I don't know. Does that make sense? It does? I tell it all the time. People tell me all the time.

What isn't isn't? Yeah, and there there isn't an answer right, especially now, so you can yell and get on Facebook and tell me what song sucks and what song is real country? And oh, you're just wasting both of our time, right I get time to read it. I definitely don't want to respond to it anymore. So and that's country about. That's that's my country. And if you like it cool and if you don't cool, you know, I don't know. Shoot, let's let's go jam more. Do you see like music

and color or anything like? Because I mean, you're such a good guitar player and you can like play like songs where you're like doing a whole one man band. You have like a thing in your head where you're like, it's so weird you ask that because I kind of do. I mean, it's not like a crazy strong thing and I think this goes back to I had a when I was first learning, had a keyboard and the keys were color coded, and I think that's why I associate colors,

and because I learned on piano. So the key of F is purple to me, and the key of G is blue, and the key of A is red, and B flat is kind of orange, B is kind of yellow, C is white, D is black, he's green. I can't think it's from the keyboard because Mayor says he sees colors on he plays, but he does have a keyboard. Do you really think it's colors? Are is? It's something you guys brain, because you're you're definitely on the neck. You're you're like talking to alien because you see things

that I've never seen. Like I'm on the earth, I walk on the earthly ground. I see things that my eyes let me see up and down. But that's it. You're on another headspace. I don't know that I see it when I play, but if i'm and if i'm charting a song or i'm living a song and a key, I just I feel it. You know, I'm definitely thinking about other things when I'm playing, or trying not to think that's what I'm mostly doing, is trying to just

feeling up. But when I'm really just feeling it, like I, you couldn't play me a song and a random key and I'd go, oh, yeah, that's purple, and it's purple because it's F. I don't have perfect pitch to be able to say that's the key of F, you know. But I know ramble on Bys that led Zeppelin, and I've learned to play it and it's an E and it does feel kind of green to me. I don't know why. Yeah, that's crazy. So record comes out when April one. What do you want from this record? And

how's it difference what you want to last record? Man, there's a lot of things I want, but I know now I don't need let me say that. And there are things I hope for. There's three categories. Are things I hope for, and I hope for the same things we all do, you know, wild success and blah blah blah. I want two get to keep doing this and somehow

be a little further down the road, you know. And I need I just needed to make it, and I got to make it, and people are gonna get to hear it, and I don't think there's anything I need from it, um, but to get to keep doing it is a pretty strong want, you know too, whatever that means.

If it just means that, you know, m I labeled it and drop me and and they offer me another option, and I'm somehow able to make a living doing this still and it doesn't you know, it's not something that just knocks me flat, you know, Uh, for whatever reason, then that would be a great thing. And I want that with this record. I mean, I want people to hear it and and I hope they connect with it, and I have the wild dreams with it, but those are not what's important. You know, you and Brandy Clark

going out, Yeah, something like that. Yeah, we may add some more. We met about it last week and um, we're we got a lot of fun ideas. We're we're cooking up some fun stuff. So so you and Brandy could like separate well, yeah, we're gonna play separate sets and then do some stuff together. I'm not quite sure yet how that looks, um. I know we want to do some fun songs together, maybe bring the the audience in on via social media to help us pick some

of those songs. If it's different songs every night. We don't want it to be the exact same show every night for sure, you know. Ah, And I think we're gonna do some fun stuff during the day as well. You know, there's there's this really cool thing that the Grammy Foundation does where they bring high school kids in for your sound check and things like that. And I don't know if we'll what what will get worked out and what want, but we want to do stuff like

that too. And um, we'd really love to take this to more cities, you know, if if this is successful and there's a demand for it, we'd we'd love to keep rolling down the highway. Well, I'm a fan. I'm a genuine fan. Thanks man. Likewise, so you know, I hope you get whatever film that you get out of this record, I hope you get it. Thank you. If it means a bunch of sold if it means you know you're happy with all the songs are on, I don't know. I don't know what you find where do

you find your happiness, but I hope you find it. Yeah, thank you. Well, getting to May it was the big one, that's the big happiness, and it would be nice to buy a house. But you know, I got a cool place, I got a doll I'm all right, uh and really, man, just getting to keep doing it. Not a lot of people get to do this, and I'm I'm really grateful I get to do it. And I'm a fan of yours. Uh, your book really knocked me out, man. I appreciate that.

I was a fan before, but you know, it's just knowing your story and it's not an easy story to tell. And I think we all have a story, and we all have a similar story. It's just we don't see those stories because again, all we're seeing is the very epidermist of what everybody wants us to see. And I think I after this. Before that, I always felt that I was writing and I was the only one that had that story until I wrote it and put it out.

Then I realized everybody has something like that and they come and talk to you about it, like just X Y Z A, B C, D E f G has happened to me? And holy crap, when I wrote that, I thought I was alone, Like I thought I was alone in this world when I wrote that. Yeah, and so yeah, that, if anything, that book has done so much for me because I realized I'm not the only

guy on the planet that has struggles the old meat too. Yeah, even what is it, page four or five years in there with Dean Sanders and is going to me to man and that and still like my dude Dion Sanders, who I looked up to as a kid prime time, like Dean, he'll just text me and like you're good. Still, I'm like, this is Deon and if I don't text the back, I'll get mad. He's like, I know you're watching your phone, but yeah, it's it's one of those wild,

wild things. It's it's been good to have you with the house. Thanks for having I appreciate you coming. And not the record. Whenever you hear this either it's the records already out and just be able. But when these podcasts are listened to it for months years, that's probably putting the Smithsonian. Yeah yeah, so um, you could be in your tenth record right now, but go back to this one, all right, And what's the name of the record, Beginning of Things, Beginning of Things. So that's the record

to go back to. He's talking about here the other five Grammy Award winning records. Afterwards, don't go back to this one that started off alright, Charlie, good to see you alright, episode thirty nine, and uh, I feel like I was trying, like eighty bucks for day every session. No man, I'll pay, I'll pay you all the way out. Just let me have a copy of that game show me,

Charlie Warsham download cut your groove. You know. I was also tempted, but I didn't because I have the whole record and I never get to I never take records from anybody and listen to them ever, It's just my general rule. I listening to record like four times, and I was like, I wander I put up and I didn't hadn't put up any clips with anything new. I was like, you know, I'm gonna know what's over now, So I didn't. But it's just really good, Like I

really like the record. I don't even talk about anymore because any now. Yeah, it all right, Uh well, we'll see you next time. The thirty nine is over all right, good bye,