You're listening to In the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horchak.
Hey, guys, and welcome back to In the Vets Office. I am your host, doctor Josie, and this week we are gonna switch things up just a little bit. Usually we like to keep this podcast light, informative, but light, and this week we're gonna talk about a little bit heavier of subjects such as dealing with your senior pets, end of life, quality of life, euthanasia, and the grief
that comes after euthanasia. I wanted to create this intro as a trigger warning if you're not in the right headspace to talk about or listen to these subjects, that is completely understandable, and just wanted to make you aware
that the episode will be focused around them. I really wanted to talk about these subjects because whether you have a pet, or your pet is a senior, or you've had to euthanize an animal before, it's inevitable as a pet owner that we at some point will have to deal with these and it's nice to know that you're not alone, there are resources out there for you, and just a little bit of comfort in how to deal
with it going forward. We're gonna hold off on doing Paw and Order and Case of the Week and listener question and answers. I feel like this is a pretty heavy subject and so doing those segments feels a little trivial to me, So we'll just focus on the bread and butter and dive right into our interview. So, without further ado, here we go. All right, Today, we have
doctor Mary Gardner joining us in the BETS office. She's a veterinarian, an author, a public speaker, and the co founder of Lap of Love, which, for those of you not familiar with Lap of Love, it's a service that provides in home pet euthanasia, veterinary hospice, and pet loss coport services. Doctor Mary prides herself in making the lives of our older pets and the people who love them better, so I figured she was the perfect guest to have today to discuss the end of life with our pets.
Welcome doctor Mary, thank you for having me.
How are you.
I'm doing great. I'm so happy to have you on today. I was prior to our interview giving our listeners a little bit of a heads up that these are some heavier topics to discuss, but important ones and everybody as a pet owner at some point will we'll be dealing with them. So I think it's really important that we are able to talk openly about it, right.
I know we're such a death adverse society in general, even in human death right and so it's it's not a topic that people want to talk about, but yet they need to talk about it, and then they usually feel better after talking about it, so they just at least know their options. Do we know what to expect and then can sit back and still enjoy life.
Yeah? Absolutely. And I know I mentioned I just mentioned lap of Love and that you were a co founder and before we dive into all the things, I actually used Lap of Love for one of my dogs previously, and I just want to let you know it was such a great experience. And I know at home usin Asia is not for everyone, but I think it's a great option to have. And I can't say how in a terrible situation, how great of an experience I had.
Thank you for saying that it is. Yeah, it's you know, it's a personal choice of where and who's around and things like that, and you know, I do feel that they're most comfortable in their home and we don't have to, you know, do a final ride in the car or anything like that. But also we're a little bit more comfortable in the home and if we want to, you know, grieve in our own way, we can without having to
worry about who's seeing us or anything like that. So, but like you said, not not everybody wants that, and not everybody can have that because sometimes we're at the emergency clinic or something like that and it's it's unfortunate. So we're very blessed to have such a rewarding career and or niche in the veterinary space, and we love making that last final moment just a bit better.
Yeah, I agree. One thing I wanted to talk about is I think I'm sure, I'm sure you'll relate to this that as veterinarians, a lot of times people think we are playing with kittens and puppies and running around it's rainbows and butterflies, But a huge portion of our job is taking care of senior patients and ensuring that they're healthy overall and they're comfortable, and so I think
a really a big part of our job. And I'll be interested to hear you expand on it is focusing on our senior pets and then also recognizing that age is not necessarily a disease, although it can certainly come with its challenges.
Yeah, I always say age isn't a disease, but it does bring disease, and our bodies do start to age and have you know, it may not be a failure of an organ or something like that, but we don't have the same reparative processes. We don't have the same energy level, the ability to fight off infections, and so it's just it's just a fact of life, even for our humans. But did you know that forty four percent
of pets, our senior are senior or more so. I love double digits, so the more double digits they have, the better, like a teenager if you will. But forty four percent are over seven years old. And that's massive, And so to your point, everybody thinks we're playing with puppies or kittens, but that's that's actually only about twelve percent of the population as a puppi er kitten because eventually obviously they go to two, three, four years old, but the majority is actually.
Seniors, right, And I think that a really important part for owners listening is bringing your pets in once they hit senior hood. I think bringing them in twice year is really important, just that way we can lay our hands on them or running lab work on an annual basis, we can we can see how they're doing. We have a good baseline, and then if some thing does come up, we can be on top of it. And focusing on that preventative care I think can make a huge difference.
Yeah, And you know, I was just this morning, I was somewhere and this gentleman says, oh, I have a twelve year old boxer, And this was just I wasn't in a clinic, right, this is just random, and and he's like, oh, you know, her hips are really bad, and so it's a very common thing all here as well. She's just she's getting old and what are we going to do? And I'm like, and I wanted to, of course go into my whole talk and conversation, but I
didn't have time. So what really makes me sad? And so many people think that doing euthanasias is what makes me sad. I do get sad, but that's not what makes me sad is But what does is that so many older pets have not been to their doctor. And it is about forty nine percent of dogs and cats are not seen by their veterinarian the last year life. So let's just round that up to fifty percent because
it's a lot easier to talk. Half the pets that we euthanize in the United States have not been to their doctor the year before they pass, and that's where a lot of stuff happens where we can help manage, and whether it's pain relief or anxiety relief or just products and setting, you know, setting up their house. This gentleman with this boxer, he's like, oh, she just you know, she can't get a grip on the floor. She skates all over and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so
easy to fix. And he just doesn't know. So I would love twice a year's ideal. We got to get him in yere, they're not even coming in at all, So how do we get them in?
Yeah, And I think it's like reframing our mindset as owners, where oh, they're just old. Isn't really the mindset that we want to have because there are so many things that we can be doing to make their life better.
Correct, you know, it's interesting, like do we say that about ourselves when we're when we're going to be sixty seventies right, like and some that hurts or we can't see as well? Are we just going to say I'm just old? So I'm not going to go like we don't.
I don't think we say that to ourselves. And I mean, listen, I'm in my I'm in my early fifties, and I feel like there's a doctor's appointment on my calendar all the time, Like there's just I have to go to the dermatologists tomorrow, and you know, my knees are hurting, so there's I feel like I'm always somewhere in a doctor's office. But we don't say that in our to ourselves. So why would we say the same thing for our pets?
Right? And I think a huge portion of it is they can't talk, so we really have to advocate for them. And even if you think your pet is perfectly healthy, they still need to go in for their checkup because we can. We are trained as terinarians to see these issues and help make your life and their life better.
Yeah, and you know a lot of people will say, oh, pets hide the hide their pain, so we don't see it, but I kind of think they just don't complain. I agree, like we actually and also people have goggles on it they can't see things. And I'm sorry. If your pet is slowing down, that's a sign of pain probably right, So they actually are showing you. We just don't know how to notice it. Oh, you know what, my kitty cat, she's not grooming herself anymore. She's just getting old. No,
she hurts, therefore she can't groom herself. Or maybe she's got oral ulcers and she can't say anything, and what is she going to do? Complaint? Like, they don't complain, So they actually aren't hiding signs of they're showing you. You're just looking for a like a complaint, which they don't do, right. I mean, now with that being said, they meant so. In acute injury, you'll hear them complain
because they howl and cry and all that stuff. But chronic long term illness like usually they just kind of suck it up. But it doesn't mean they should.
Yeah. One thing that I've had a lot of owners and that i've dealt with in practice and a lot of listeners ask me about, is your pet gets diagnosed with terminal illness will say cancer, bone cancer, for example, and people are really torn between, Okay, do I go this much as I can with pursuing treatment versus doing palliative care, which palliative for those listening at home, just
means keeping them comfortable until the end of life. I just I see people struggle with that so often, and I think that's a huge part of our job, is helping them guide them to their decision. That's their family, which may not be the same for everyone totally.
I mean, you said it perfectly, and because neither is right or wrong, right, what I should say is neither is wrong. And if a family wants to in your example, do you know if they can do radio tactic things or amputation and then you know, some other medications and get another year from their pet and they can manage them financially, physically, emotionally and time wise, and they can't,
then that's fine. But if they also have all those things they have the time they but still don't want to, that's all so fine, And but what we but but I think the rules should be they should not be suffering. So I don't I and that and that's not just end of life diseases. There could be a disease. You know, this is a harder thing is you've got a younger, you know, younger cat that's got diabetes, and some people just cannot manage that disease the treatment, and so what
do we what do we do? So we may not be doing anything until that disease is taken, you know, to a point where then the pet is suffering, and there then we're gonna have to intervene. But and that's I think where you and I as veterinarians kind of get a little bit sad because we know that it's a it's a treatment that's not so difficult. But when we're talking about older you know, nearing the end or a few years out, let's say, treatment becomes a little
subjective and what would you do? And even myself, I've I've done some things for my own pets, and other veterinarians are like, you did radiation, Like she's a twelve year old dog, And I'm like, well she got two more years, she got six more months. I don't care as long as as long as she's okay going to getting treatment and the treatment doesn't decrease her quality of life. Then I'm then I'm going to do that, but it's also okay if I didn't.
Yeah, and I think you said a really important thing is as long as she meaning your dog, is okay with it too, because it's very dependent on the patient. If I have a dog that's like would it hates other people, hates going to the vet for him, it would be horrible.
Yeah, totally. Pet's personality is a massive part of my evaluation of quality of life. And like I have my current dogs, he's got separation anxiety, and he's highly reactive, and so he is just he is such a blessing to me because he has taught me so much about behavioral issues and and and he's not an aggressive dog to peace people or really as long as he's not around other dogs or cats, he's fine. But he's just
so anxious. There's no way I could bring him for chemotherapy or rehab or any of those things because he would just be not a good patient and he wouldn't feel comfortable. So so for him, he's got the same mama as my other dog that FMO, he wouldn't get it because he's it's not good for him, And that's okay. Right.
I think a really big take home message I want listeners to hear is whether you pursue treatment or you don't. I think, no matter what, we are prone to being like, ah, did I do the right thing? I'm questioning myself. I'm feeling this level of guilt and there is no wrong. Like you said, there's no wrong. And either way that you go, it's really you have to look at it from a very holistic approach with yourself and your pet and whatever decision you make that's best for your family.
It will never feel one hundred percent right. But I certainly I wish I could take away the guilt that so many owners feel.
Yeah, you know what I think? You know you said if they don't want to do treatment. I think what we should think about is that howly to care is a treatment, right, So we are doing the treatment, we're just doing a different one because there's there's many different ways to treat something, and and sometimes we're doing things for curative reasons, and some things we're just doing things
for prolonging life as long as it's good quality. And there's also treatment is just pain management and quality life assessment that's still a treatment option. So and I just think it's but back to my point, I made whatever a couple of minutes ago. We got to make sure that their pain and anxiety is being managed. And so it's not okay just to say, well, he's just getting old exactly. That's not okay because because old age does bring disease.
Right, and so we want to stay on top of it. The Great Dane that I euthanized through Lap of Love, she had osteosarcoma, which is bone cancer, and she would not have been a good candidate for amputation just being such a big dog. It would have been I think, pretty difficult for her to get around, and so we chose to go the palliative care route. We kept her at home, We got a really great six months with her and kept her on pain medications. She was getting
around just fine. And so so yeah, as doctor Mary said, palliative care is a treatment option. It may just look a little bit different than what we had in our head. But I think I saw lot some really great time with her and was able to keep her comfortable and it was I'm grateful for that.
Yeah, totally. And I think that's the thing is everything, Once we decide on palliative care, just kind of put the guilt aside and just enjoy and do bucket lists, get a photo shoot, just be present. I always prescribed thirty minute twice a day of love and that's it. Just love on your pet, because that is a part of the process. If you were to lose a friend or a family memory, you'd wish you had thirty more minutes to say I love you, right, right, And that's it.
So every day say I love you. That's a part of my treatment plan, and that's okay. And so it's it's a different mindset because you know what, we never want to say goodbye, never, right, but we have to. So that's their only fault.
It is definitely a double edged sword. I think about this a lot, where the people where you have your pet, who you're rushing to the er, you find out they're very sick and euthanasia is an option, and having to euthanize them in that emergency situation, versus in my case, my dog has bone cancer, I'm taking her home, I'm living with her for six months, but knowing that she's
slowly going to deteriorate. And neither one is great. They both have their comments they're very both challenging in their own ways.
Yeah, right, both both, I mean, dare I say both have their pros? Who both have their crimes? Right, Like I think we're so like, oh, I don't want to say that. But one pro is that you don't have to sit there and think about it for six months. It's just it's come so fast you're like, oh. But that's also at the same point a con. And when I've like you've had pets with you know, a long, longer term illness. I mean most of mine were about
six months too. Once you really diagnose and and you're just you're every day thinking every day, looking every day, worrying every day, anxious. That's called anticipatory grief too. Rite. So you're all those things for months at a time. So that's a con. But a pro is you get them for six months. So both have both have their things. But what I don't want it's just when it is an accident meanings or fast or emergency, you just don't
have any time to prepare. So I do believe having the time, whether it's six months or six days, that's that's okay, because anything is better than emergency.
A little less traumatic for sure. Yes, a lot, a lot less, a lot less atmatic. What are the things that you are looking at? Because I think it's very hard to quantify the quality of life. So people come in and they say, how will I know it's time? And so what are you looking at when you're assessing quality of life in a pet?
Okay? Yeah, because this is super subjective and as veterinarians, we're like all about objective things, right, Oh, what's the bun? Care at any numbers and things like that? Right, this is absolutely none of those things. And I do love quality of life scales, which is an objective way to measure something that is so subjective. But it certainly helps as a guide it and it asks questions that many of us wouldn't be thinking about. Right. So, but to begin,
I there are four things that I look at. First off, is the ailment that the pet has and how they will pass from it. Now, most of them have multiple ailments, so you might have a dog with more ability issues and heart failure and cognitive dysfunction or whatever. Right, So so I look at the worst one, meaning which one is going to be an imminent decline and happen fast with an emergent emergency room is an issue, right, and so to me, that's any disease that takes away their
ability to breathe. So, any disease like heart failure, lorential paralysis, you know, you know the whole list that the ailment is going to make them have respiratory distress. That's what I'm going to focus on and say, if we don't say goodbye at a sooner date, than you will be going to emergency clinic. Like that's and that is that what you want? And I and no judgment. Some people may want every single second of time with them, and I get it. And I'm like, are you prepared to
be rushing to the emergency room? Like that's that is going to be the consequence of this, good or bad whatever. The second we I already talk about is the ailment or sorry is the pets personality? Right? So how are they managing their treatment? How are they managing their disease? Some things are are harder to manage, like like anxiety, so cognitive dysfunction, it's I hate it. It's horrible.
Yeah, for those listening, it's I think it's very much like dogs almost get like a dementia.
Yeah, totally and cats too.
Excuse me, cat wow like all.
Night and just and peeing outside their litter box because they just don't know where it's at. You know, It's kind of it presents a little bit differently. Vocalization is is more with cats, but you'll have dogs panting and pasting and anxious and keeping everyone awake and they're not sleeping, so quality of the sleep is important. But so with
pet's personality is very key. Then everybody's beliefs. We are all so different and some people may say, you know what that's that cat is just my you know, barn cat and they chase mice and they do whatever. So I'm not going to do I'm not going to do treat like other treatment, so I'm going to euthanize before that is that something that is required for good quality
of life? It could be, you know, just I've helped junkyard dogs, so I don't know if I say that, like the people sometimes love their dogs that are just protecting the property. But it could also then be a teacup that's in bed with you or a giant dog in bed with you. And we have different different ways we view our pets and also different ways we view our treatments. And there are some that will say it's just a cat, so I'm going to keep them, take care of them. And then but then that's it. So
we're also different. And then and with that being said, there's also some religious differences for euthanasia.
Right.
I've had many Buddhists that are against euthanasia, and so, okay, well, how do we manage that because they also don't want their pets to suffer?
Ye.
Then the last is the budgets, which I talked about also, like do they have not just the finances, do they have the time, the physical ability, and the emotional capacity to manage their pets as they're aging. And at any time, if any one of those budgets is up, then I support their decision to say goodbye. And you know, somebody could call me on a Monday and they say, oh, Mary, doctor Mary was like the worst weekend. She wouldn't eat much, we she could barely get up, didn't sleep a lot.
You know, the list goes on, will you come today and help us? Say goodbye? And absolutely I will. They could also call me on Monday and say we had a beautiful weekend. We did bucketless items. We you know, she ate like a champ. Everybody was around. Will you come and say goodbye? Because that's how we want her last days to be and we never think of it that way, but I say, yes I will. So it's okay to euthanize them on a good day when we know bad days are right around the corner.
Right. I think that is so important. I see so many owners where they're like, well, well Fluffy is still eating, you know, I'm Fluffy still drinking, And that to me is not an indicator of a good quality of life. Nope, Fluffy can.
Can get to the water bowl, right, Like, yeah, I think you have to think about what disease they have. That's why the ailment, like I mentioned, what ailment they have, is going to determine what they lose. And you can have a yellow lab that's got arthritis that will eat their way into the heaven. Yeah, yeah, exactly the grave, right, they won't eat their way to grave. That was better
than thinking. And it's just the disease they have in the pets, you know, personality and their normal eating habits. People will say, oh, they'll give you a look. Well, the look you get comes when they're so much suffering, you see it present on their face. And I never want to see a look. So there's no way I ever tell someone don't worry you'll get a look because you're waiting for it to be so bad, right, Like that's that's obvious on a cat's face. So I would
never want that either. But it is. It is really hard, and it is a personal decision, but you have to you have to make it with love and mind. And I always say that we suffer so they don't, Yeah, and so we have to say goodbye and break our hearts so we don't make them suffer.
I think that's a great point. I just actually euthanized a friend's dog a couple of weeks ago, and she called me and she said, I just need you to come look at her. Name's Lailah. Come look at Laila, and just tell me that it's okay that I make the right decision. And So for any listeners out there that are struggling with this, I think you can really
rely on your veterinarian. And it's hard sometimes even bring up that because you feel like you're your pet's own executioner almost, and so it's okay to ask your vet, do you think making the right decision?
Totally, And you know, I lecture a lot to veterinarians, and I encourage us to bring it up because because pet families are so so conscious, like do they don't want to do that, and I think it's I think we need to to help them. And but but boy don't we don't. We don't want to talk about it. But I think it's it's absolutely something that we should be talking about sooner than later, so that way everybody is supported and not in a situation that could have been avoided.
Yeah, and it's true. I've never had an owner say, oh gosh, I I did it too soon, but I have had many say I waited way too long. So I think.
App absolutely, you know, you know that saying no, it's better a week too soon than a day too late, which is which is totally true, and asking your veninarian for evaluation like yours that your friend did with Leila. But so we at lack of love. We actually have tele hospice services where we will do a virtual conversation with families all around the country just on quality of life assessment of their pets. So it doesn't even need to be in an area where that we service, which
we do have a lot of those. But if you're in a in a rural wherever that we're we don't have a veterinarian, then that's massively helpful. And what I do like is showing the home because how they act in the home is very different sometimes when we bring them into a clinic, yes and both ways.
Yes, so how they are at home can be entirely different, especially like if they're sick and they come in and they have this adrenaline rush and they're prancing around they're at home, they're like a vegetable. Then you know, they just are totally different.
It's so true, like the vegetable comment. It's crazy, Like I they will come and perk up and be good, and they come home and they're just staring at the corner with especially cognitive dysfunction, or they're just so exhausted they can't they can't do anything, and you know, there's there's kind of a I don't want to call it syndrome is not a good word for it, but it's
a phenomenon. I guess where primary caregivers are usually ready to say goodbye before the secondary or tertiary caregivers because they're seeing the whole picture. They see the whole day. Yeah, they see the struggles and it's not so much a selfish thing like I'm done cleaning up the poop or
you know whatever. They see the whole day where somebody comes home at six point thirty at night and the dog gets the adrenaline is so happy them and they have dinner and they're like, oh, let's all curl up in front of the TV.
They don't know, they don't know.
So that's just I don't know if you've experienced that too. It's just very interesting to see that the duality at home between family members and how they're never on the same page.
Yes, I agree with that. A lot of times it is one who's like, no, I know it's time, and the other is just not on board. And it typically the one that's not on board is the one that's not doing the majority of the caregiving.
Yep, yep. And like I said, it is not because they're tired giving the care it's they see it. They just see it way more.
Yeah, if someone wants to go on lap of love for that quality of life assessment is that on the website.
Yep, it is. It's just on the drop down of one of our services, along with of course in home euthanasia, in home hospice and then our pet loss support. So it's right there, that's listed there, and it could be really valuable just to have just a conversation, no judgment. We can go over quality and life scales with them which are very helpful and and like I said, they could kind of you know, you can see the environment.
But if somebody does want to come into their vet's office, they can also not bring their pet in and say these are all this is the list of problems that I'm dealing with. Here's a video of how she's acting at home. Here's some pictures of how the house is set up. And we could still help without the pet being present, if it's too much for the pet to come in. So I like to encourage people to do that, and I think we forget that that's okay to do,
because this is a conversation. Half the time when I'm in the home, you know, the dog's laying over in a corner anyway, and we're just conversing.
Right right, Yeah, they're not even a part of the situation. Yeah, absolutely, and I guess I would love for owners to take away It's okay to bring it up, It's okay to talk about it. It feels impossible, but it's something that we have to have a discuss, and it's better to do it beforehand and feel prepared rather than than doing it the very last second. So rely on engineerians for that. That's what we're here to help with the actual like
act of euthanasia. I think a lot of people, many people haven't been a part of it and curious about it, and what I typically say to them is it is intended to be very peaceful. And I've had a lot of owners that afterwards say wow, like I wasn't expecting it to be so peaceful, and they get a lot of closure from it. So you do interested to hear what your thoughts are now.
I like how you said that too. It's intended to be peaceful because that is that is true life and our bodies and medicine, you know, like that they don't always cooperate. So even under the best of circumstances, sometimes
the body has reactions that can be startling. With that being said, mother nature and when natural passing happens, all of those things can also be present and worse, So people who want mother Nature to do it and have you know, two am, when everybody is asleep, they don't watch their pet waking up and suffering through that process. So what we can guarantee though, is sedation, and we
can guarantee that they're not conscious for those things. Even if the body has a reaction, they're not conscious for it. And it requires consciousness to experience pain and suffering.
So I think that's a really important point. I have a lot of owners that say, gosh, I would love for my pet to just die naturally at home, and I think what we know from humans is that that can be a very terrible experience.
Uh, and it can be a very long experience. So you know, death is an immediate, it's a phase, and I have seen videos of because I would never allow to continue, but I've seen like cats die of kidney failure. The active dying process takes over three hours. That's so it's not a quick and I'm done right, it's long. You know. I lost my uncle three years ago and it was you know, like the real act of dying process was almost a whole day and that's a lot,
and we had him on morphine. We don't do that in our pets, so I think everybody can tell I'm pretty adamant about this. But getting back to euthanasia, because that is where you know, it would be nice because we can control things way better. We can control ninety
nine point nine percent of the situation. So most most veterinarians and clinics will will give some lovely sedation before the final medication, and that's great if we end it is not medically necessary at all, but it is really nice for owners to see their pets just sleeping beforehand. It kind of sets the room for being peaceful. And for those that may not want to be present, I do encourage them to be present, just at least for that and once your pet is sedated, I understand. I
totally understand when people don't want to be present. I think there's a lot of stigma about those that don't want to be present, and they get almost guilted into it, like your pet's looking for you and stuff, like your pet's always looking for you from day one, right, like they're always going to So don't think it's because of this that they're scared. So but at least maybe stay for the sedation. And did you know that the last sense to go is the sense of hearing, so you
could just be speaking to your pet. They hear that until the end, like that's amazing. And then the second medication. What a lot of people then think is that we're stopping the heart, and we're not. We're actually stopping the brain. It's simply an overdose of anesthesias, so we stopped the brain. The brain is an amazing order. It controls everything, and so when that slows down and is gone, and everything
else follows and it's extremely peaceful. And you know, some of the reactions people see are really just energy leading the bodies. So if we see muscles tremor and stuff like that, that's just that's just energy leaving. If we see what we call an agonal breath, which is just actually the diaphragm relaxing, which is a muscle and that that forces air out and it just it looks like a breath, so people get scared, But those things actually
rarely happen. It's only about three percent that that happens. The only thing I actually prepare owners for when the euthanasia is happening is that they won't close their eyes. And I can't stand out about you. But when I see it in the movies when the eyes close, I'm like, yeah, they like push the other I'm like, that doesn't happen.
Yeah, that's not real.
And you're and you're making my job hard because people are expecting that, and they'll sit there and try to do that. So I always prepare for that because that happens one hundred percent of the time, and they may relax their bladder and and you know, go to the bathroom number two as well. So I like to prepare that because you know, everything relaxes and that could be upsetting to some people. But all the other stuff I don't even prepare owners for. It's like, if it happens, we talk about it.
Yeah, and it's very far in few between the other stuff.
Yeah, totally.
I really like how you said it's okay if you don't want to be present for the actual act of youth in Asia itself. I think it is such a personal preference. I do think it's, like you said, important for me for you to be there while they're self conscious. I think like it's part of our responsibility as pet owners to be there for them. But once they're unconscious and they've had that sedation, I think if that's not something that you want to be a part of, but
that is okay. And I certainly don't want anyone to ever feel like, oh my gosh, I have to be here because people on the internet are going to shame me because people are very about it.
I I can't stand that shame. And you know what if if you even can't even be present for this, which I really like want people to do because because I think it's so good not just for the pet, but for you enclosure, Like I promise you to do that. It's so helpful when you don't know and you dropped off your pet and you've got the will that could haunt you. But but everybody should know at the vet clinic, we love on your pet. Yeah, you know, we love
on them. We give them treats, we give them sedation, we give all those things and the team will love up on them. So so don't feel guilty because it's not like we were just like, oh, that was a drop off, so we're not going to do it well like that's I used to work at a shelter. We loved up on all of them. And I there was a wonderful director of our shelter, doctor Sarah Pizzano. And
this is when I before I became a VETS. This is early two thousands, and so I was making the surgery packs and whatever, and I would hear this voice down this long hallway. Here's what Wait, wait wait, I'm like, who is that? And doctor Sarah Pizzano every dog that walked past her office to go get you because we because even though we were quote a no kill shelter, pets were euthanized because of sickness or behavior. Way I'd hear and every pet she'd say, high, handsome boy, Hi,
beautiful angel. And she loved up literally on every single dog that walked past her room to go to euthanasia. And it was just such a sweet thing to see that I'll never And so every pet I walk into a home, I say that, hey, handsome boy, high beautiful angel, and love up on them. And if families, I'll go to homes. It's rare, but I've gone to homes where they want me there. But they're going to step outside, they're going to go to the backyard. They don't want
to be present. For that euthanasia, and I support that decision. And then afterwards I want them to come back in and we make paw prince and we love up on them and things like that. But it's it's hard. I watched my uncle passing and it's.
Hard, really hard to watch. It's really hard. And the last thing you want to feel is that some outsiders judging you. So I think it's yeah, have to do No.
I think I think shame on us if we judge them. That's where I think shame should be. And I'm really adamant about that because I've had a family member who couldn't be present at all and she's like, I just I need to stay at work. I don't want to think about it, and no problem, I will. I will make sure she's got a good goodbye in my hands,
and that is my oath to them. So so anyway, that's I'm glad we talked about that, because that is a it is a big topic, or there's just one that I see creep in and I don't like it.
Yeah, yeah, me either. I think one thing I'm sure you have gotten this many times is people will always say to me when I was little, I really wanted to be a veterinarian, but I could never ethanize a pet, like I just could never do that. And so to that, I say, well, that's not my entire job. But when I do, when I do have to euthanize a pet, it's very much a privilege for me where I'm preventing
them from suffering. I I'm not doing it unless I feel one hundred percent that I'm doing the right thing for the animal. And so I definitely feel the weight the responsibility of it, but again the privilege, and it's just part of taking care of them.
It's so it's so so true. I am. I own I own a crematory also pet crematory. So I'm a little unique, right. And so today we had a new a new employee that I was I was talking to and she said that exact thing to me. She's like, I could never do it, but so at least I'm still helping. I'm doing this like she's working at the crematory. It's just that final thing is really hard for people, and I don't see it that way. And I actually do that for a living. That is all that I do, right, So,
like you think i'd be crying all day long. I do actually cry a lot, but because I see them, I see families that love their pets. How joyous is that to see families see pets that they're loved so much that the owners were sleeping in the living room for weeks, that they were handmaking food, you know, all the time, that they set up a party, a goodbye party that they they read. I've been to you know
where Jewish prayers are are read to their pet. Like, so the same cultural things that we do for our humans, they're doing for pet like it's beautiful and to help us share that petet to the next stage and do it well, like I'm love. I love helping, and that's what we can do. We became vets to help animals, and it's not always to save them, and it is it can be hard when it's not done well. So I'll say that right like one hundred percent. And when I worked in that shelter, we still did it well.
But one of the things that I took away from that, and that was twenty plus years ago, was sedation because in the shelter we didn't sedate, and so it was very hard for me to be speaking to a pet right, a dog while it's wagon its tail and licking my face, let's say, right, but I know it's got a pretty severe disease whatever, and I have to uth andite without sedation. That was hard. So that's hard for me. So our
shelter bets I give them a lot of kudos. But anyway, but when you can make it beautiful and a family is so grateful to you, and you know, we get the best hugs and things like that. But I remember this one time. I always say I go into homes as the angel of death and I just leave the angel because they're just so amazed at at what the processes can be. And and you know, I also feel there's a bit of relief to families afterwards, yes, and
they're shocked at that. And then sometimes like ohh and you know, I kind of and this might seem crazy that I'm going to give this analogy, but it's sort of like if you've ever been nauseous and you have to vomit, right, you know, you know I'm got to do it. It's coming, and you know you'll feel better after,
like you just don't want to do it. So you've got this time where you're like, and you were avoiding it and then you do it, and then after you're like, Okay, I'm better, and you know, I don't mean to minimalize what we do, but it's very much like that.
Yeah, like, no, that really sucked, but now I'm feeling a little bit better.
I'm feeling better. I know my dog. I like they you always missed your pet, but now you know your pet isn't struggling, and you know your pet is not dealing with these diseases, and you know your pet's okay wherever that may be. And so I think that's sometimes helpful. And I do think people will say goodbye the first time, usually too late. It's the second and third time where they are like they've learned from that and they said, no, no,
I'm not going to let that happen. So you know it is I want to say, you know, the more time you do it, the better, But it's not that it's better, you manage it better.
Right, Yeah. I mean, no one writes you a rule book on these kinds of things. So with experience, you definitely learned to manage it better, for sure, totally, Yes, for sure. I mean even as a veterinarian I really had to have my husband be like, listen, I think it's time, let's do it before it gets worse. And I am like, yeah, I'm a veterineery and I'm very objective in my thinking, but all all common logical thought goes out the window.
We I am the mayor of Denial Island myself when it comes to my own like, I am just and I am the queen of quality of life assessment, I think, right, the self proclaimed queen of it. And it's still when you're a mom or a dad or what like, you know, pet owner whatever, like this so hard because we want every single day. You know, I always say it's never long enough and one more day, but I want to make sure that one more day isn't a bad day.
Exactly, it's not. And it just becomes about us and not them. Yeah, So what any resources anything you recommend for owners after euthanasia. I know I of Love has some resources, any support, yes, so.
Listen, if there's a good local support group and a lot of people can just you know, search for that. But we do at Lack of Love. We do have a pet loss support group, which is amazing. So we do every single day. We have a virtual support group, which is completely free to anyone anywhere who's lost a pet. We've got people from Asia that log in from Brazil and if you've lost a pet, you can go every
day and it spree. So there's those. Then if you want a little bit one on one with somebody that can help you through some of the grieving process, we do have a one on one session, which I think is maybe fifty dollars for an hour or something like that. It's not a lot. But we also have some specialized groups where we talk about children in grief, men in grief,
cat owners, anticipatory grief. So we've got some specialized groups which is kind of, you know, really interesting, and we're working on more and more and so I think that's really helpful for families. And then we also have a course, a six week course to help people manage through this
whole grieving process. And I've made even activity books for kids called Forever Friend and you can get them on Amazon, and they're because I think children and grief is tough for moms and dads, like they don't know how to talk about it. Yeah, and so my activity book kind of goes through some stuff where we could talk about passing or you know, and it's not just after. We need to help them before. And that's everybody, not just kids, right,
So pat loss isn't always just after. So it comes because of that anticipation.
Yeah, absolutely, And I think for all the listeners out there, I know I felt really sad for a very long time. But the first few months the grief is can be overwhelming, and sometimes you might even feel a little like silly when you're telling people like, oh, I'm sad because I
lost my dog. And maybe not everyone's a dog person and they may not fully understand, but people with animals, I find they will say to me, I was more sad and I lost my pet and when my grandma passed away or then my aunt died, and it's just they are like our children. And so if you're feeling that extreme grief, you are not alone totally.
That they call it disenfranchised grief when Simon says, oh, it's just a cat, right, and no, no, that was my herbie. I actually I was. I am what they call second year veterinarian, a second year a second career veterinarian, and so I was ten years in the software industry, and it was the death of my own dog that I when I was in grief, I decided to go back to vet school, so I like, so I know firsthand that grief can really impact your life, so much so that I left a really good career became a
veterinarian in my thirties. So I'm you know, I believe that pet that, you know, my first one that I lost, snow White, you know she's watching over me, and know that you know I've done I've done well because I've I've taken that experience now you know, have come twenty years later helping others.
Yeah, full circle, full circle. Yeah, that's amazing. What was Snowed a dog or a cat?
She was a dog. She was a samoid.
Love They're great, They're great.
They're so not common. And then I got a second samoid and uh and then I'm a I'm a Doberman lover too, but the best, the best are just good old mutts right.
Them. I love it. Well, this is great. Thank you so much. I know it's not the easiest of subjects to talk about, but I feel like with all your experience and what you've done, you know with these subjects, has been really helpful, and I and it's important to talk about and have an open conversation, and I'm sure our listeners will, We'll get a lot from it. So I thank you for going on.
You're very welcome.