Hey there, welcome to Board Game Hot Takes. My name is Tim. And this is Chris. This is Adam. And today we're going to be talking about a special topic and that's modern classic board games and how they get re-envisioned.
and kind of come back to market with new productions sometimes, maybe second editions and things like that. So just a bit of a conversation today, not a top five list or anything. But before we get into that, we do have some poll results to discuss. I asked that on our Patreon and out on Blue Sky. Have you ever left a game group? The options I gave, no, that got 69%. Yes, it wasn't a good fit, got 15%. Yes, I got kicked out, got 0%.
Nobody wanted to own up to getting kicked out of their board game group. And yes, it disbanded, got 15%. This was, by the way, this question was suggested by one of our Patreon supporters. So thank you for that. How did you guys answer this? Have you ever left a game group? Yeah, there was this game group that I was a part of in California, did not fit in well with them at all. And then everybody moved away. So it was it was kind of, you know, kind of a bust.
Just kidding. That was us. And obviously we did not break up. But no, I actually have not ever left a board game group. I'm not I'm not sure what would cause me to leave a board game group, I guess, especially around here where there's people playing is a pretty large metro area. You know, there might be a game group that I got involved in that.
is not logistically easy for me. But honestly, that's true with the board game group that I play with now. They're all up in Portland, and I'm down in the southwest suburbs, and it's not that easy, and it's made it difficult to get to game nights. you know, it's a great group of people and I get together with him when I can. And we even take our trip out to the coast in the, in the fall. So, so yeah, I, I don't know.
I can't see myself leaving a board game group if I enjoy the people that I'm playing with and in the games that we're playing. And these guys, even like Reiner Canizia. So, you know, that's even maybe the games we're playing are kind of negotiable. Just kidding, guys, if you're listening.
Yeah, I said, yes, it disbanded. So really the only board game group I would say was, it was one with Chris, but I had a local group of friends when I was in Southern California that I was getting together every week. And it was a mix of friends, mostly.
people that weren't really gamers they were just buddies and i could pull together usually three a week even though i had like five or six people that were on the mailing list and it was right after i introduced adam to the group and invite him in invited him in and he showed up for one night and then and then covet hit and we did
disbanded and really haven't gotten back together with that group. So even though I stuck it out with Chris and Adam digitally and virtually when we all moved away, I consider that a disbanded game group. But that's the only time I've left one so far.
And Adam, I think what he really means there is that you showed up for that first time and he realized all his gaming dreams had come true. So there was no need for all these other guys. So you did it. You were his dream come true. I'm sure that's what he was thinking. And not that I.
Totally was the problem that caused the group to disband. So I'm glad you went that way with it, Chris. So yeah, the only group I've ever been a part of is you guys. And at first I was like, yeah, we disbanded you guys. But no, we kept meeting up digitally Wednesday nights, whatever nights we shift the night around. We made it happen.
So we've been going strong for, I don't know how many years, five, three, four or five years, something like that. So I have fortunately not been kicked out of the group. just yet yeah i guess i did used to have a regular group that got together just to play magic the gathering when i lived out in illinois and that was just a geographically we
you know, spread away. So that one also disbanded similar type of thing, I guess. Uh, but not, uh, not at least as far as I know, I haven't been kicked out of a group unless people moved away just cause they didn't want to be around me anymore. That's, that's possible.
Well, here's how some of our listeners answered. So Murat said, our group was influenced by an alpha player who liked to take most of the decisions regarding meeting time, venue and games to be played alone. Well, I favor a more consensual approach. It was taking all the joy out of the experience. And I'm going to just mention a couple others really quickly here, but there's a lot of like personality issues I think that caused a lot of our listeners to leave groups.
Benjamin said I ended up leaving because the group dynamic changed and there was less focus on gaming and more focus on distractions, phones, kids, dogs, et cetera, et cetera. It's hard enough to play a heavy game without having to explain everything that happened in the last 10 minutes because someone wasn't paying attention.
That does seem like the focus moved away from being a board game night to just a social gathering. And it probably depends a little bit on who gets pulled into it. And that's why I'm always... been a little bit careful about curating and trying to find the right people that are going to fit in and are there to just to show up and play games, even though I like to socialize with them to some extent.
Rolling Reggie said, not yet, but I do have a game group that always makes you feel guilty if you can't show up every week. And I get it. I wish I could game three nights per week. But unfortunately, people do have lives outside of games.
I have to admit, I struggled with this a little bit when I was running a game group and I was so enthusiastic every week to get everyone together when somebody would cancel. I don't think I was ever... like made people feel guilty but i wanted to like my first instinct was like really what do you have better to do than game right this is this is the highlight of my week uh so i have to admit that it's it's a little stinging when you're putting the effort into putting a group together and
you're so excited about it and other people take a little bit more casually. How do you guys feel about that? Does that bug you? If, if you know, you got something.
Like if I just didn't show up like every Monday night, I was like, you know, guys, I can't make it tonight. I'm kind of busy. How would that make you feel? Well, it all I think there depends partially on if you're talking about just games or if you're talking about the podcast, because, yeah, if you just routinely just said, I'm not going to show.
up for podcast night, that would be a little bit difficult. But other than that, I mean, everybody has lives. And in fact, that's, I think, one of the keys to having a successful group that's going to have a long life is... like with so many things, it's decentralized leadership, you know, it's decentralized organization, like, and I'll hold up my local game group here as a great example of this. There's probably about 10 people in it.
And there is one or two people that kind of tend to be the ones who host. But one way or another, there's going to be a group getting together pretty much every Thursday night. And the one guy who who tends to be the. most avid organizer is also a doctor. Sometimes he has rounds and he's like, I'm just not going to make it tonight. If somebody wants to host, please do. Somebody always steps up.
I make it probably, at least in the past, I've made it maybe about once a month. And now I'm making it, I will hopefully start making it more often. But it's a group that meets constantly and it doesn't require one person who is the centralized organizer. So there's also not likely to be one person who gets their feelings hurt if people aren't showing up. So maybe that's a good model to follow.
Yeah, I like that, Chris. And I think Rolling Reggie said three times a week for game night, that's a lot of gaming going on. So yeah, that's a big commitment, especially if you have any other things going on in your life, like he said.
I get it. If you can't make it three times a week, that makes total sense. And if you throw kids in there, throw some pets in there, throw a job in there, then that's just going to add to it. Tim, there's a couple of times I flaked on you. You had a game night set up and it would get to be.
I don't know, eight o'clock, nine o'clock on whatever night it was. We were planning to meet up Tuesday, Wednesday night. I was like, man, you know what? I just had a rough day with my kids and they're shouting all around and I had to take care of this and take care of this. I'm just worn out. I can't make it over tonight. Sorry, man. So I get it. If people have lives and need to duck out occasionally.
A little empathy goes a long way. What about you, Tim? Does that still bug you? No, I mean, well, it doesn't. It doesn't. It's definitely easier now, especially since I similarly...
The groups that I'm gaming with, first of all, I have like three game groups a week, basically, between you guys, a regular game group in the middle of the week, and then one or two friends that I'll get together with every couple of weekends. So it's pretty easy for me to get a game together. And maybe that's the key. It's like I get enough gaming in.
that I don't feel it's not as much of a miss if game night doesn't happen. But it rarely doesn't happen because at least one person's usually going to show up. So it doesn't bug me as much. But I got to tell you, Chris, your doctor friend's got to get his priorities straight.
game night or doing rounds at the hospital. I'll let him know. Peter said, I remember a game of Unfathomable where the owner of the game got pissed that people were accusing him of being the traitor and childishly tanked the game even though he wasn't the traitor. No apology. I never went back. Now, I don't know if I get a bad attitude sometimes on game night. Maybe I do, but I have never done anything like this. And I got to tell you, if a game group just broke up.
and you don't know why, there's a good chance it's because you're just a jerk. So those of you who thought that you were kicked out of a group, maybe you were and you just don't realize it. Don't do stuff like this. This is annoying and you're a child. Don't be like that. Well, we had one more listener that wanted to leave an anonymous answer. So he reached out to me in a direct message and didn't want to leave his name.
But he said, I joined a new group after moving out of Seattle, played for a few months, then learned the church we played in was antagonistic to women and LGBTQ people. I initially thought I could just play in their basement anyway. But trans non-binary oldest kid visited from college. I realized I would not be comfortable taking them, our oldest as a tabletop gamer, D&D player, to my game night. It was an easy and painful decision to leave the group.
I, this is, you know, this is like, you got to pay attention to the space that you're using as well. And even if you want to say, Hey, you know, we don't talk politics here. If you got somebody in the group that's posting on social media about.
how they hate people or want to be exclusive, then don't expect everybody to feel comfortable being in that space, even if you're not talking about politics at the game night. So this is a, you know, a tough story and it's sad that, you know, that he didn't feel. that it was safe to bring his kid to game night. That sucks. I think venue is incredibly important. There's a couple meetups I've seen posted that are at this venue or that venue. And I've decided not to go specifically because of.
of the venue. And I'm like, I can't do it. I like library. There's a one I went to earlier this month, public library, nice open space meeting room. I mean, what's very neutral ground at a public library, I feel.
Yeah, that's great. And I my heart goes out to the listener who wrote that email because I totally get that. I mean, I would feel uncomfortable if I was in a space that didn't make me feel comfortable or my kids feel comfortable as well. I mean, you know, especially in even in a small way. you're supporting the organization and.
inherently supporting their views, even if it's in a very small way, because either they're making money off of someone renting that space to use for a game night, or there's somebody who's a member of that group who holds those views, who is holding a game. night. And so it may be really small ways, but I think that's still real and that still matters.
All right, cool. Well, that will wrap up that topic. So we're going to jump into another topic, which is updated editions of modern classics. So the topic here kind of came about because... Awaken Realms is doing a new Kickstarter for the Uwe Rosenberg classic Agricola. You know, Agricola has been out for something like 15 years at this point. And it had a second edition already, but.
looked and felt the same but now they're coming out with a big modern edition with new artwork and plastic minis and so that got us thinking about this topic a little bit Yeah, and in particular, I was thinking about this topic because we had talked on a recent episode about the idea of expensive games and whether an expensive game should have a big production and whether a simple game should have a big production.
Did it feel offset or did it feel off balance if a simple game has a big production? And so that kind of got stuck in my head a little bit and I was bouncing it around and thinking about variations on that that topic. And then. the thing about Agricola popped up and even bigger than the reboot of Agricola. And by the way,
Tim, I don't know if you said this, but it's Awakened Realms, so that gives you a pretty good hint at what you're going to be getting in that box when it finally comes out. They are also doing Agricola Dead Harvest, which is Agricola with zombies.
And I was like, no, you got to see the thrill on Chris's face as he's talking about this. And I think this is hilarious. Chris will say more here, but I think it's hilarious because there's so many people that just reacted negatively to the concept of this on social media.
But Chris's first, he saw this and he texted me an anime. He's like, guys, did you see this? I can't wait to try this. So it's so funny how the enthusiasm just comes from different things for different people. Oh, man, I feel like a human star eye emoji right now. It's like that's how this all feels to me. And so I'm absolutely fascinated with this idea because, you know, I'm very production focused. I've become less production focused over time. And I've also gotten my my.
horizons expanded into thinking about games like Agricola, and Agricola is a wonderful game. I love playing Agricola, but I also like the idea of a game with a nice production. I got to say Agricola for the amazing gameplay that Uwe Rosenberg packed into that little box. Holy cow. It is a weird looking game. I mean, it is about as bland as you can possibly get. And yet it is a brilliant.
game. It's a brilliant play. So it got me to thinking about these types of reboots that they're doing or reskins or facelifts, whatever you want to call it. And thinking about Are those a good idea? Are there games that ought to be getting them that don't have them? Are they a bad idea? Are we just trying to pack a bunch of plastic into a big box? So I wanted to talk about that a little bit today.
But to start it off, I just wanted to kind of go through a little bit of a survey of kind of what's out there in terms of what games this is actually being done with. The ones that came to mind for me immediately were. Castles of Burgundy. That's one, Tim, that you got. You've talked about similarly La Granja, which is another game.
I mean, those two between them are about as the bland twins in terms of production. I mean, I don't think anybody, despite the quality of play, which I think Adam would probably argue with, nobody's arguing that those are beautiful games to play. And so both of those got really big production remakes, I believe, also from Awaken Realms. And so, you know, they seem to be some of the lead purveyors of this in the modern world.
And then another one that popped up is a game that's come up several times in my Thursday night game group, which is Zuvadis, which is a reskin of Quovadis, which is a game by Reiner Knizia, which has. possibly the blandest, most uninteresting production in the history of the universe. I mean, it's basically like blander than chess and they turned it into this. really adorable with like animal characters and, you know, the politics of ancient Rome, but with animals.
And it's really adorable. So it's that kind of thing that I'm thinking about. Are there others that have caught you guys' attention as you thought through this or through the years? Yeah, a couple I'll mention here as a good start to the conversation.
Although I want to point out that I don't think anybody's done quite what Awakened Realms is doing first with Castles of Burgundy and then with what looks like they're going to do with Agricola. And that is taking a Euro and not just... putting new artwork on it or a nicer presentation, maybe some slightly tweaked, you know, second edition rules, but making an extravagant over the top.
plastic heavy version so awakened realms is definitely pushing the bar on this a little bit and they were very successful with castle burgundy i suspect they're going to be very successful with the gregla as well uh you did mention legrand hot chris which was not published by awakened realms the reboot of that i think was
board and dice maybe it's but it's it's another euro publisher but they did bring it to kickstarter gotcha they did uh release with that kickstarter i didn't get this at the time but they released i think they called it the legrande version or something like that but it's it was like literally like a three times the size player mats for legrand hot they would never fit on anybody's table so they did go pretty over the top there a few others i thought of though
So Brass was re-skinned as Brass Lancashire. And then they, of course, did a kind of a second edition version with Brass Birmingham, which didn't go crazy extravagant, but quite a beautiful update just to the look and feel of the game, which.
Brass was, if you look at old pictures, that was really one of the ugliest tabletop games you'll find in the last 15 years. And the new versions are just really nice looking. A couple others to not stay too long here, but Irish Gage was a simple little cube rails. game that got picked up and and you know put a you know tool artwork theme on it adam you look like you're about to say something i'm smiling because it's one of the first games i brought to a board game meetup
With you guys. That's right. That was the first game that I ever played with you. I think it was the first game we ever played together. What a disappointing moment for you. Oh, no, it was OK. I thought, yeah, I love the game still, but.
It was not for you that evening. A few others, though, that have done this. So the whole Cyclades, Kemet series. And I think Inish is coming out with a new Kickstarter soon as well. And, you know, Kemet, I mean, you know, again, not quite as drastic as those were already.
fairly big productions, but definitely updated, freshened up, some more streamlined rules on them. Cole Worley with Worley Gig Games did this with PAX Premier, and then with PAX Premier 2nd Edition, didn't just get refinement of the rules, but it also got a quite nice... you know, component update and same thing with John company, second edition. And then a couple of recent ones that were just out Yokohama.
which was published by Tasty Minstrel, was out of print for a while, and another publisher picked it up and put a fairly nice update, although I don't think Yokohama really needed it. And then Ethnos, which is that old come on game. a fairly simple game that didn't have a lot of plastic minis like you would expect from come on it but it was a pretty bland production and they put a nice colorful modern you know
look and feel to it, which I like. A lot of people have been saying they don't like it too much. I think there might be some accessibility issues with the update. Anyway, so that was a list of some other recent refreshes that we've seen. But again, nothing quite the same as what Awakened Realms is doing.
Yeah, this is a fun topic, Chris. I'm glad you brought it up. A couple of the games I was thinking of that just recently had a new fancy edition. Acquire, the old... old school stock building game business company game acquire renegade i think renegade games renegade studios did a new version of that very extravagant very nice looking looks very tactile big old chunky buildings
restoration games itself that's kind of their whole business model if i'm sorry if i'm still in a topic for later but they are taking older games and putting them out with a new twist maybe some streamline rules and some nicer components although fireball island was a joke of components what a poop that was but like dark tower the big old chunky thing thunder road vendetta for instance um i don't know if thunder road was a a redo on
Thunder Road? It was. I think it was just called Thunder Road originally. But yeah, and Restoration's doing it a little different than the other ones we've talked about because they're really re-envisioning older games for a modern audience in a way that I'd say most of the rest of them.
are more component updates and maybe made minor streamlines i think these are almost different games at this point even though they're inspired by the right yeah i agree yeah although i'm glad you brought that up because that is i mean they are in a way doing some of this the games might be changed, but they are taking older games, especially the restoration games. I think it's fascinating because a lot of these games I'm seeing are ones that are...
from way back when I was a kid and now I'm seeing them rebooted and put into these crazy, fancy new packages. Dark Tower being a great example. The other one I'm waiting for. OK, if Restoration Games, if you're listening, I want to see you do. Dungeons and Dragons, the board game. And so if you do that one, it was like this weird electronic where you move these pegs around a labyrinth. And so anyway, do it.
Do it. I'll back it on Kickstarter. Is that the Sears catalog days? Dungeon and Dragons you're talking about, Chris? Oh, yeah. If we start to see some Dungeons and Dragons sets for the what's the dueling game that they've got all the IPs for? Oh, yeah. If we see a D&D-themed unmatched, then you know that that's probably coming next, Chris, because they got a deal worked out with Hazel. Probably so. So what do you guys think of this concept generally? And I'll lead off here. I think it is...
generally speaking, a good thing, but I do have some mixed feelings about it. And let me let me explain what I mean. I think that it is always more fun playing with a lively and attractive production on a game. The best example that I can give. versus the old versus the new.
is I think all three of us got the updated components for Terraforming Mars, which is a game that we all enjoy. And what a difference there is playing OG Terraforming Mars with all those crazy, you know, little cardboard octagons. little pictures on them and not even great pictures for that matter versus these big fancy 3d printed tiles that have actual topography to them and just what a dynamic gameplay difference that makes. That is...
I think a wonderful thing. On the other hand, there is a huge environmental impact to this. Every time you put out one of these big production sets, you're getting away generally from wood. and cardboard, and you're moving toward plastics. So that is a downside. But you know, I'm going to kind of I'm going to step away from that point because, you know, we're talking board games as opposed to, you know, the social issues here. And for my gameplay experience.
I think playing with a big set is almost always going to be better because it's just more tactile. It's more exciting. It's more fun to look at a table when you have these big productions on them. The only example I can actually think of where this hasn't been true is when we played the very beautiful. version of mosaic that uh peachy hamburger brought to bgg con and we played that and only because all of those big pieces ended up taking up a lot of space and it felt like it was actually
difficult to tell the different tiles apart based on the the 3d printed tiles. So like I was having a difficult time trying to figure out which piece I was looking at, whereas a cardboard tile that has some iconography on is a little bit easier to tell. So I think that game would have been better with just tiles just because of the iconography and the ability to see.
But generally speaking, I'm going to say that I think it is a good thing when you get a big upgrade, when you get a big update, and especially with art, you know, because that's the other piece I didn't really talk about was the art. But I'll just say, you know, updating art. is always a good thing in a board game. I disagree pretty strongly on this, but I hate that you brought up the Terraforming Mars big box because I do really like that. And I don't, I think that is maybe an exception here.
Let's talk about Castle Burgundy for a second. So, you know, this game came out in I think 2012. One of the worst quality productions of a game I've played, but one of the best games I've played to date still, Alea, which is an offshoot of Ravensburger. They make games for a European market that just doesn't have the same kind of...
I don't know, expectations that us Americans here do. And they sell a ton of games there. And it's well-priced. It's easy to get into people's hands. It's easy to get into their big box stores there.
And so what, you know, that, that, that was just, but for, for me, that's a disappointing production, even though it's a great game. And the whole time I had that game for years, I said, boy, I wish they'd just do a reboot of this. I wish they'd fix this, but I didn't, I never wanted something like the awakened. Realms version, which had plastic washed castles and a huge box and storage components and all that. All I wanted was a freshened up modern looking Euro.
And they tried to do that in 2019 with the Ravensburger 20th anniversary. It's not 20th anniversary of Castle Burgundy, but of Ravensburger, but they released a reprint of Castle Burgundy and they botched it terribly. Because although it did feel and look a little bit more modern, it was less playable. The iconography was harder to decipher. There was still some pretty bad graphic design choices and, you know, just look and feel choices in it.
wow, what a letdown. I thought that's what we wanted, but yet they gave it to us and it was just a downgrade. I don't think that's the only example. So then when they announced the Awaken Realms Kickstarter for the new reboot of it, And I started to see the artwork come in and wow, okay, this is a big improvement. But I have to tell you, all in, both those versions are less playable than the original.
And I have the big box Castle Burgundy special edition. It's a massive box now, which I know, Chris, you've argued with me about this in the past, but it does make it harder to get to a game night. It does make it less likely that I'm going to carry this box into a friend's house. it and i definitely am not traveling it with like i'm in mexico i'm recording in mexico right now with my family
I will not bring that box in the car across the world to another country. I would have brought the small version most likely because my wife likes to play it. So in a lot of ways, it's less usable. They unfortunately didn't fix some of the iconography issues at the 20th.
uh anniversary one used and overall it just takes a bit longer to get out of the box because you got all these plastic inserts you're pulling everything out of in the midis takes a little bit longer to get back in the box when you're done Now, there were a couple nice improvements to it, like the map overlays that make it easier to play with.
You know, with more maps, there's more maps in the box. You can, everybody can play with the same random map if you want to. So they've got some minor quality of life improvements like that. The player boards being dual layer give you some nice usability improvements there. But overall, I'm going to say, no, I don't, I would not do this again. Even though I really thought I wanted it for Casts of Burgundy, having gotten it at this point, I don't think I would.
That said, one last topic here. I mentioned a lot of other games that have had refreshes that were just more modern Euro refreshes like Brass. Absolutely. These are exactly what old school Euros should be doing. I don't think Yokohama needed it because I actually really dug the art style of that. But I think even that modern update, great. I mean, if people like that, look and feel better.
But they didn't try to make it like it's still in a regular size box. It's still wooden cardboard components. And I think that's a great opportunity. I think what a Rake and Realm is doing is wasteful and it's going to make it less usable for the most part.
So yeah, a few great points you guys are bringing up here. First, I want to talk about the Terraforming Mars big box. I still have my little box here with all my little flat components and everything. And I've tried getting all these little extra cities and domes and little...
spiky trees and atomic bombs blowing up and stuff i'll take the little flat chits classic feel that's just nostalgia for me and i think there's an aspect of nostalgia for a lot of people with these og games versus the big production ones But going on to the big production topic, a lot of things I want to touch on here, I think it depends a lot if the game is beloved or if it's been out of print for a while, then you might have a point with these big production games.
You know, maybe you're using a friend's copy for a long time at game nights and now you want to get your own with this fancy version. I can kind of see it then. But in general, you know, even like Ankh, a CMON game that has all this plastic and it's not like a reprint.
it's cumbersome all these minis you gotta like find which minis go here and which armies get set up in this i tried getting some storage stuff for and that was a disaster so i don't know unless there's like a really nice way to organize all this stuff eclipse did a nice job with their second version now you just open the box dish out these little trays and everybody's ready to go in 15 minutes
for eclipse you have to be really careful with a big giant production i don't want a big production to subtract from the function of a game tim like you were mentioning with the castles of burgundy's redos And then you mentioned Brass is a great example of a facelift type of game. It just looks cleaner, more functional. There's nothing big and pizzazzy about it, but it's a beautiful game to play when it's on the table. It feels...
nice compared to the spreadsheet-y, prototype-y look of the previous version. All the plastic, I want to talk about the plastic. It's a little justifiable if you want to go in on one of these big productions because it's not single-use. plastic these aren't sporks and stuff that you're throwing away in the trash you're gonna keep them in general for a long time and hopefully these things don't end up in landfills until like the apocalypse but yeah in general i think i'm trying to
trending more towards anti-plastic or stuff that will biodegrade a lot of board game publishers and designers. There's a little bit of a movement towards that these days too, which I think is a great thing to see. As far as less environmental impact in board games, I'm all for that. And then I want to mention Manhattan Project Energy Empire. That one is getting a Kickstarter, which I'm back. I want to spoil it for our Kickstarter episode. We're going to have like two games each.
I've been looking forward to this one. So Luke, Laurie, and Glenn Drover, I think, speaking of mosaic. But this game looks beautiful. They did this art refresh on it. They had the old school style. The art was pretty cool in that. But then they went this very stylistic sort of mid...
mid-mod art on this thing that looks fantastic. Excited to get this one with all its little expansions. Great price too. They're not going overboard with components. I think it's about 50 bucks, maybe 60 with shipping. which seems surprisingly reasonable in this era. So I don't know if I answered the question or what the question even was, but I just wanted to touch on some of the points you guys were making in general.
If the facelift, if the refresh, if the new polish is done in the right way, I think it's a great thing to get that game more accessible, hopefully more functional to people if it's just a big... plastic-y, overproduced thing that maybe takes away from functionality, then it's hard for me to get behind. Chris, I know you're running the show here, but I want to jump in with a question for you because you said that you were generally...
into this and that you're excited about bigger, bigger, you know, fresher production. So let's talk about Agricola a little bit, because I haven't looked, I don't know if they have any pictures of what the, of what the production is going to look like or anything like that, but what would you hope to get out of a.
reboot of Agricola. Because if I think Awakened Realms, I think of, of course, minis, which I don't see a reason why I'd want that in Agricola. Gray plastic instead of the nice meeples they've got in there. I think, oh, maybe they got some fences. That'd be kind of cool. plastic fences. But I think the artwork, and I would picture Agricola being realistic style.
artwork on the tiles that would go on the board. And to me, that feels like it would get harder to differentiate. But how do you feel about what you're seeing so far and what gets you excited about an update to Agricola? Well, before answering that question, which is a great question, let me first...
say that I think one thing that you guys were inherently doing that I didn't do was come up with a little bit more of a nuanced view of what these kind of refreshes mean. What is the question that I was asking? I don't think I was nuanced enough. There are the big Awakened Realms type reboots where you're creating a lot of new plastic. You're putting a lot of new 3D elements into a game that otherwise might not have had those 3D elements.
And then there is something that's a little bit more of a refresh or a facelift, which can often mean just putting in some maybe some dual layer boards or some nice artwork. And I think Legrand has probably a really good example of that. Yeah, so much more of an attractive.
version of the old one but it didn't go big on 3d elements like say awakened realms is going to do i think great western trail second edition i think is another good example like lagranha where it really didn't change things other than make the a little more vibrant production. And then...
those two-layer player boards, which makes it just more playable, a little bit easier to use. So that's exactly the type of upgrade I'm looking for. But didn't they double down on the Uncanny Valley RO? Why would they do that? It's horrible! It scares me. Well, the worst part about that box was actually of anything else was the insert was just terrible. So that was a shame. But yeah. But otherwise, that's the type of update that I'm looking forward to, Chris.
If you're looking to upgrade the artwork, you actually have to upgrade the artwork. You can't just have other bad artwork. No, and that's a really good distinction to make. Getting back to your question, or actually, before I get back to your question, when I said that I universally support this, I universally support a nice refresh.
I often will support the big pieces, which I do think are more tactile and more pleasant, but there has to be a reason for them. So a perfect example of where I think it was not done well. was in the Kickstarter upgrades on...
Lords of Ragnarok. Now, there is very little I can say positive about Lords of Ragnarok other than, I mean, it was beautiful. I mean, like, I don't think I've ever seen a game by Awakened Realms that wasn't an absolute work of art. But one of the things they did was create. These big.
3d temples and 3d landmarks for the different regions of the board that you put out on the board instead of having just like a chip where you can you like a card or something that has the icon this is like a whole big 3d piece by the end of that
that. I don't know if you guys remember this, but you could barely fit anything on that board anymore. You couldn't put your pieces out there because there were so many of these big tiles and 3D structures that were taken up the board. That's an example of what you don't want to do. Yeah, and Castle of Burgundy actually did this too because they did have the big deluxe version, which was good in a lot of ways, but also...
over the top. But the worst part is they had an add-on package where you could get replacements for all the hex tiles with plastic miniatures so that your entire, you know, the oceans would be like a plastic boat, you know, boat in a river and monasteries that you're putting on the board. And the problem with that is that the game doesn't even play like that because you pull these tiles off a grid. Some of them have stuff printed on it like words.
And then after you move it to your board, then you're supposed to replace that with another tile out of a box. So you're actually adding like an extra fiddly step to every time that you take an action that game, which. might have looked cool on the table but totally not worth it in my opinion i didn't back that because i thought that was exactly an opportunity to make the game worse i want to bring it back to this agricola dead harvest so let's talk about agricola
First, you have this peaceful agrarian game where you're a family on a farm just trying to make a living, get some cheese and some milk and some tasty foods, make some bread. But now this Agricola Dead Harvest, you look at the cover, there's this... old combine that's
dilapidated there's a guy with a shotgun blowing away a zombie off the top of this thing there's these like creepy zombies in the wheat field and the beautiful blue sky behind it and they're all fighting each other ready to eat some brains Chris, what are you looking for out of Agricola dead harvest? What's going to make you back this game? What kind of gameplay?
are you looking forward to this one? That's a great question. And I think that actually brings us back to Tim's question too, which is in terms of the production, what would I hope to get out of this? Or what would I hope to get out of Agricola? So I think... Number one, that is a game that is, it's like a four alarm emergency that this game needs an art refresh. I mean, it is.
Frankly, it's almost unlookable, some of the art. Hard to disagree. It hurts my eyeballs looking at the art on Agricola. And I'm sorry for those who love it. So it needs an art refresh. You are correct. Yeah, what you could put in there in terms of production that would be useful, that would also be 3D, that would go beyond artwork.
Like I could see the player boards, individual player boards where you have your farm. And instead of dropping in a little tile onto each of these spots, like with a piece of house, you have a little, you know, a little 3D house or a 3D. tile with cows or whatever. That may be something that I think could make it more attractive. I am less interested in those kind of physical upgrades on... the refresh of Agricola, possibly more so on the creation of...
Dead Harvest. Now, I don't know anything about the gameplay in Dead Harvest yet. I've tried to find some information on it, and I don't see much out there. They haven't actually launched the crowdfunding campaign for this yet. But I'm assuming... that what's going to happen there is there's going to be some kind of zombies moving around the board. I don't know if they're going to be blocking spots or if they're going to be killing animals or what they're going to be doing.
My guess is that there's going to, in fact, I think the one thing I had seen in terms of production, other than the box cover, is a little plastic zombie. So presumably they're going to be moving around somewhere doing something. And I think anything like that would be a worthy upgrade to a game. But I don't know how that's actually going to work. I don't know what they're going to do with that.
I'm less interested, more interested in new art in Agricola, potentially more interested in physical upgrades in... Agricola Dead Harvest. Well, unfortunately, this is Awakened Realm. So you are going to get lots of plastic, gray plastic in the box for the new Agricola. So if you're just hoping for an artwork upgrade, that's not where you're going to get here. We'll see. We'll see how it turns out. Do they actually have pictures posted about it?
this now? I have not seen them yet. I have not seen any. Very few. Oh, Adam, did you see? I did not look today. No, there wasn't much. There's the box cover and then there's that one miniature zombie reaching out. It's pretty cool looking. But now I'm just reading the description on Board Game Geek. Yesterday we lost Tom. I wish I would have said Tim. Yesterday we lost Tom. But, you know, it's time to waste. You got to get the harvest before winter comes. So winter is coming.
And you got to get the food there, but all these zombies are trying to kill you. So maybe you have your team of farmers trying to get the grain before the zombies eat everybody's brain. Something like that is what I'm thinking here. My guess is that this is Agricola with a couple more action spaces where you're picking up like ammunition or some of the occupations or upgrades will be things that help you defend off zombies. So instead of feeding your people at the end of every harvest, you...
You have to defend against zombies. You know, Uwe Rosenberg is actually involved in the creation of this. And they're saying it's essentially kind of a modern take on the Agricola formula. So I think this is going to be a worker placement game. with a little bit of a different threat mitigation other than just starvation and beggar cards at the end of a harvest. Which would thrill me. And to go a little deeper into that, what Adam was reading.
A broken radio crackles from the porch playing heaven is a place on earth. Ironic. This feels like hell. Here's a little another tidbit. It's a unique fusion of farming and horror. Says it all right there, really. Who doesn't want a fusion of farming and horror? Has the world not been screaming out for the fusion of farming and horror? I feel like you're right.
Can we just go? I want this game. I really actually do want to try to play it. But can we just can we go back to the Clemens Franz version of it? I prefer that, I think, over this Awakened Realms version. Clemens Franz zombies. Well, I do have one more question, and this is probably the most important. important question in this topic, which is what game or two for each of you would you say needs a big makeover? It doesn't have to be a big makeover. It needs a makeover.
to make it a better game, more playable and enjoyable. Well, Chris, I know you sent me this question in advance, but somehow I totally forgot to think about it. So why don't you start, Chris? What's your... What's your game or two that you think needs a makeover? And I'll find a solution quickly here. I'll come up. Well, I have actually, I have three of them.
And one of them, I have a feeling, might be one that Adam will say. So I'll only say my first two and then I'll come back with the third one. Number one, I think Adam will agree. And Tim, you're going to hard disagree on this one. It's Gaia Project. That is a game that has some sad artwork. It's a wonderful game. And actually, before I go on with that, I was looking at games that I enjoy playing that I think would benefit because you can take any old game that's, you know.
garbage from 30 years ago and say, well, you upgrade it with the production. But I want it to be a game that I really like and that I think would actually benefit from having a nice new production. So Gaia Project. Great game. I don't like the cartoony artwork on it. It's so bland. I think they could liven it up. So between living it up.
in updating it with maybe something a little bit more realistic or a little bit more serious looking in terms of the alien species and some of that kind of artwork. I think a little bit of update in Gaia Project. could go a long way. My second choice is Beyond the Sun, which is a game that is nearly bereft of production. I mean, it's amazing how little production they've actually done on that game. And I think.
I mean, I have other concerns about Beyond the Sun. I think that it has some really good bones, but I think that it also has some stuff that leaves me kind of flat. But I do recognize that it is a pretty high quality game. But the production is almost inexcusable. The simplicity of it, the lack of actual like.
components and graphics and art. I think Adam said when we talked about this in our original review, couldn't they have just made these cars, you know, like a picture of whatever this thing is that, you know, the text is about, you know, this. laser beam or whatever? Couldn't there just have been a picture of what that thing looks like? Because that would have been really cool. And then you've got this little sideboard that has the regions of space that you're trying to take over.
that feels almost like an afterthought because it's so small and so much to the side that could be done better. So those are my two that I'll throw out as games that I think could really use a nice. top-notch production refresh in the future. Tim, you ready to jump in or you want me to go? No, no, no. So I just looked through the top 100 on BGG and luckily a few of my favorites on here have already gotten.
the reskins that they needed. Beyond the Sun, by the way, Chris, does have a new version coming out called Beyond the Horizon, which is a more kind of traditional civilization theme versus the space theme. We should take a look at that one. I haven't really looked closely at it, but they may have made some of those adjustments or improvements that you're looking for. Although it does get away from the sci-fi theme there. But there were two games that stood out to me and I, man, I feel bad about.
poor Clemens Franz because the only two games on the top 100 that I really care about that needed this refresh, one is Le Havre, a recent favorite of mine. I know you guys aren't as big of a fan. It's another Uwe Rosenberg game, but I think a really cool streamlined game that just doesn't look...
good it doesn't look modern or exciting and then the other one was the quacks of quedlinburg which is a you know a nice enough simple family weight game but i just feel like the production and the artwork makes it feel outdated and look a little cluttered and and could have been just a little bit.
slicker, in my opinion. So a couple that just stood out to me in the top 100. But honestly, I don't have a lot of other complaints from most of my favorites. I think some of the ones that really needed have been addressed already. yeah it's interesting i can do the same thing tim look through the top 100 to see what great games were there that maybe could use a little fresh polish and a lot of them have already done it so that seems like the trend the gaia project chris i think that's a great
pick there it's such a you know the game is so good that i sort of look past all that stuff anyway but yeah with a little more it could be a little more edgy if you had some cool artwork in there for me beyond the sun that was also one i considered
But you know what? I don't know. I don't mind the spreadsheet-y player board and the dice. Everything just kind of works. Yeah, you could do something with those cards to make those a little prettier and make the text pop a little more. It's just white. cards a little text description it'd be nice to have some little backdrop blueprinty kind of laser beams and whatever hypersonic shuttles a lot to work on there with beyond the sun the one that i think
You were thinking I was going to pick is The Expanse. Yes. I'm sure of it. It was. Yeah. So this is one of my favorite TV shows in recent history. It pays such... close attention to detail with all the physics and space flight and flip and burn. You're always accelerating towards wherever you're going until you get to the halfway point. Then you flip your ship around and decelerate.
So you always have gravity, right? Wherever you are in the ship, there's always this sense of gravity keeping you to the floor.
just the details like that and then you get to this game and the production is so lackluster they like ran out of colorful ink all these cards are just so dark and dim you can hardly see what's going on it's such a bland look and they did come out with an expansion and released a new board that's kind of a fresh looking board but still all the ships are little cubes and it's a whiz kids release so i think they were going for you know just
make something and get it out there and sell it for cheap, get into the hands of people who care about the expanse and people who care about the expanse, I think would be willing to go up a couple of steps for some beautiful components. So yeah, just make some little spaceships for each of the different factions. I think that would be pretty neat. And if you can, like I said, attention to detail.
Make them so they actually fly around. How hard can that be? Just make them so they fly around the board and maybe they could go out into space too if we wanted them to. Just a small detail, WizKids. I think you want a video game, Adam. I don't think you're looking for a tabletop game.
I think they should be able to holographically fly above the board and you'd be able to control them with your mind. Is that too much to ask for? I don't think so. Anyway, the Expanse board game could use it. Sounds good to me. Yeah, it could use a nice refresh.
Such a fun game. I've been wanting to go back to this one. I'm going to bring it. I'm going to make you guys play it here in a couple of weeks. And then one that is already getting a reprint that I've been having my eye on for a long time. is dogs of war this is the apollo mori game it's kind of like i think blitzkrieg is in a resist so there's kind of these tug-of-war components and but it's multiplayer
I don't know. It sounds nice to me. I'd like to get a hold of the new version of Dogs of War. And then one that's out of print that I'd like to play, Forbidden Stars, another space sort of 4X game. I think it was a Warhammer 40K. ip on this so it's not going to get printed with this same ip from what i understand but also heard the designer is looking for new ips to put something else out not even ip just some sort of theme to re-put this game out
and have something similar going on. It'll be interesting to see if that ever happens. Anyway, the Expanse board game, Forbidden Stars, and Dogs of War. which is already coming, I think are some games that could use a fresh coat of polish. Now, Chris, there's one more point on this topic that I think is worth chatting about because it actually had a little bit of, let's say it created a little Discord on our Discord channel.
And when this Agricola was announced, we had a listener that really said, I don't like this because it makes me feel bad. It's overpriced and I can't really afford to spend the money on it. But then I feel like I'm missing out on it. I'll follow up on that topic in that some companies are starting to take these big Kickstarter versions and then making lower priced versions of it. But do you think there's anything to be said in a hobby where we should...
you know, not make something that's deluxe because some people won't have it available to them. Do you think that's, that's a. Is that something worth giving thought to or is it something to say that it's not required? You can still get Agricola. You don't have to pay extra for it. So if you don't want to spend the money or don't have the disposable income, that's...
That's not a problem. There may still be a demand for it. But which point would you take on that? Do you think making something that's higher priced and potentially excludes some people from access to it is a problem or is it not because they can still get the lower priced version? I don't know that that problem is quite as binary as that because...
you can take pretty much any board game and go on to Etsy and find all kinds of upgrades for it. So if you're talking about the same game, there is always a version of it that, you know, you're not going to be able to afford if you don't have, you know, if you couldn't afford the upgraded version by the. publisher, you also can't afford the upgraded version by the people who make the Etsy upgrades for it.
That is a slightly different thing than something like Dead Harvest. If Dead Harvest only comes out as this big, crazy, expensive Kickstarter version. then I do feel for folks who are like, well, I just I want to play Dead Harvest, but I don't want a fancy version. I don't need all kinds of minis. And, you know, I don't need to spend a whole lot of money. I feel much more. I'm more concerned about that, about having a version that is only...
the high-end version, as opposed to having different iterations that have different price points. Because that's sort of the nature of our economy. And you can buy a Ford or you can buy a Bentley. And they're both cars. They'll both get your employees. place to place and the people who can afford a Ford can't necessarily afford a Bentley or a dishwasher or a house. Everything out there comes in versions that I can't afford or you can't afford, somebody can't afford.
So I'm a little bit less concerned about that. But I think it's a bummer if companies are putting out games that are only available at that very high price point. Now, I mean, let's look at Eclipse Second Dawn for a second. there's no cheaper version of that you have to buy the expensive version of it so i guess my point of all this is just i'm not sure how to get around that just don't make games that have nice productions no that's not the right answer
So if there is an answer to that, what is the right answer? Yeah, and I don't have one, and I'm not sure. I think I feel along with you, too, Chris, in that I don't think it's really a problem because you can opt to.
to buy another version right now personally and that's what i'm doing you know i'm not going to opt to go into this agricola maybe it's partly because i don't want to waste money on something i already have a perfectly good you know version of and um and and but i you know i don't know i i think that that is uh It's probably not an argument that's important. Here's where, you know, you mentioned Eclipse.
The company came out with the game Foundations of Rome a couple of years ago, which we've talked about. And this is a several hundred dollar or at least like I think the lowest pledge was like a hundred dollars for this fairly light game.
that came in a huge box and that, that you could say, Hey, I'm forcing people, you know, some people are just can't afford to play this game, but there's like 3000 games released every year. So who cares? Like, to be honest, like I'm not going to buy every game. because you don't have time to play them anyway. Now, interestingly, there's a couple of publishers that have gone the reverse route. And so they are now making Foundations of Metropolis, which is a more...
price approachable version of this. Marrakesh, which came out when Queen did the Kickstarter of it, it was $120 MSRP for this Marrakesh Deluxe Edition, the version that you guys played. But they did release a Marrakesh, maybe they call it Essential Edition.
or something like that, which is a standard size box, smaller player boards. Minor, I think, I would say playability fiddliness added because of the... the decrease in components but otherwise it's the same game and then even everdell with that far shore um you know we played far shore the big deluxe edition at bgg con but i got it target for 45 bucks the essentials edition which is the same game with cardboard
components so i think it's nice that publishers do offer a lower priced version as long as it doesn't kind of ruin what the game is you know if it doesn't that doesn't take it take away the essence of the game by doing that Tim, did you say that version of Marrakesh you had is...
125 bucks yeah it's like yeah that's what the msrp i mean queen is way overpricing their games by far when they're on kickstarter and otherwise i happen to get it for like half price at a local game store they had like a buy one get one half price deal so i got it for like 75 bucks
which was probably still overpriced for a bunch of cardboard but uh yeah you know that that was and it's just so it's such a huge box and it's so kind of excessive just with the amount of components in there i guess overall what i want to say about production and stuff is i In my shopping now, I try to find the right mix and match for me. I like games in that $50 to $60 slot that have the nice components with a power vacuum over here. Beautiful production.
these crazy these great little wooden statues nice cards so you know nothing over extravagant looking for quality gameplay nice tactile components the plastic stuff is becoming more of a turnoff but i like that solid Feel good production. And then I also want to mention, you talked about that availability of components on Etsy, too. So if you do have a beloved game, do an Imperium, for instance.
You can go upgrade the little water components and the spice components. They have these beautiful things on Etsy. So maybe start with the... the base, the market version or whatever, the non-deluxe. And then if you want to step it up from there because you're playing it so much and you do see the need for these.
upgrades that are available and you can just do it like that. I think that's a fun way to go about it. Well, guys, thank you for talking about production with me. I love talking about production. Even as my tastes change, I still love a game that's beautiful to play and that feels good in my hands. So thanks for taking the time to go through this with me. Fun topic. Yeah, right on.
That'll wrap us up this week. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. We would love it if you joined us on Blue Sky, on our Discord, or come support us on Patreon.com slash BoardGameHotTakes. find links to all of those in the show notes for this podcast episode until next week take care everybody good night all bye-bye