The Ambition One

Host: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to this episode, the ambition one of the Women Talking About Learning podcast. I'm Andrew Jacobs. There's something ironic about this episode. The topic of ambition was suggested and we really quickly filled the spaces. It's almost as if our guests were really keen to get this out there. And we're very pleased they did. Our first guest is Cheryl Johnson. Cheryl has more than 20 years of experience in coaching, learning, development and workplace performance. With a pioneering attitude, Cheryl has made strong contributions in the areas of learning with an emphasis on behavioural change. And she's been recognised as a leader in the architecture and design of interactive multimedia learning systems and strategies. Our second guest is Erin Donovan. Erin is a learning and organisational design leader who focuses her corporate success on building measured growth strategies, grounded [00:01:00] in her practical and academic experience. She is currently the founder and chief partner of Fueled Training Consultants, where she and her team focus on the individual, the classroom, and their corporate partners. Thank you. This is an engrossing conversation which we recorded in April 2023. This is Women Talking About Learning. This is Cheryl and Erin talking about Ambition. Cheyrl Johnson: Hello, I'm Cheryl Johnson and, um, I'm glad to be here with you today. And we're going to be talking about ambition. One of my favorite subjects, even though I've been in the learning and development space for quite some time, I found that ambition was one of the key elements to motivating people to learn. So Erin. Erin Donovan: Hello, and I'm Erin. I'm so pleased to be here with Cheryl today. Um, Thank you. I have found personally as a woman in learning and development, ambition has been quite a double edged sword. So I'm so [00:02:00] excited to learn today from Sheryl about her experiences and share our journeys, but also, Get it right back to the learner because at the end of the day, that's why we do what we do. Cheyrl Johnson: Exactly. Um, learning has been a passion of mine since I was very young. And I, I agree with you. Ambition is a double edged sword. And when I first, um, started after, I don't know, 20 years of being in this business, realizing ambition was a key element in it all, I started focusing on that. And then I came to realize, Oh, I thought ambition was a good thing. And some people don't think that ambition is a good thing. And, you know, especially as it relates to women, um, it's, I mean, we've heard this all before men. It's okay for men to be ambitious, but when women are ambitious, it doesn't always come across as a positive. Erin Donovan: Definitely. And even growing up, I was always described as a bossy girl, and that was never a positive thing. And yet my male counterparts were [00:03:00] bosses. And that what they were leaders. And I think as, so I, I, I actually started in education and I was a teacher and one of the big transition points for me to go from traditional education to learning and development is this conception of ambition and the fact that no one was going to put a development path in front of me. If I wanted to make my career, it would have to be something that I actively did. And it was a shocker. It was a shocker. And I was very scared, just to be completely honest with you. Cheyrl Johnson: It's funny because I was never, um, scared of, you know, I've been on the learning and development path since the beginning of my career. And, um, I would, I started off training people, um, with disabilities to use computer technology. So whether it's voice recognition or [00:04:00] screen reading technology. And at the time there was just nothing out there in terms of training. And so I ended up writing my own training. And the interesting part was, uh, I was working through vocational rehabilitation. So I was taking people who had disabilities and putting them back in the workforce. So that, and sometimes even with voice recognition, it was new to the market. Doctors, lawyers were really into it. So I would have doctors and lawyers. I would have people with learning disabilities. I had people all over the map. And I was like, okay. I learned in a hurry the way that I was, you know, approached doctors and lawyers was totally different than how I would approach somebody with a learning disability. Plus, it was all over the map in terms of what did they need to learn besides the technology. If they were going into the workspace, what software did they need to learn? And so, I was just Like, it became a passion, and then with my kids too, it was like, what motivates them to learn? What inspires them? What makes them want to have this passion for learning that I had? Erin Donovan: Yeah, yeah, and I love [00:05:00] that you use the phrase, learn in a hurry, because I think that's my whole career. So everything, you know, as I made this transition and as I moved from a consultant to a director to, uh, you know, owning my own space, it was learning on the job constantly. And I think that's where my ambition really started to take shape. It was how quickly could I learn? How many different projects could I be on? How, how, like you said, how, how could I learn how to transition from this client to this client? And it was this self learning pushed by my ambition, which at the time was encapsulated by the idea that I want to be a CLO. Everything was learning in a hurry. Everything was, how much can I do and work and achieve in a small, small amount of time? Because I started this when I was 40. So I already felt like I [00:06:00] was behind. Cheyrl Johnson: That's interesting. Cause I started this when I was about 38 or 42. And I never wanted to go down the path in terms of, you know, getting into management. I've always been a consultant. I just come in, I help people with their learning programs. I leave. And it's interesting to me because I, I was really disappointed, I, I will admit, I mean, I, I, so much of my, because I live in Virginia, so much of my, um, business came from the federal government, and then I had a lot of Fortune 500 companies, and I would come in all excited, like, oh, you guys really want your people to learn, you know, and so here's all these great ideas I have for helping them learn, and, and, you know, having them grab that opportunity, you know, I don't know, brass ring and run with it kind of thing. And then they'd sit me down in front of a computer and put me in front of some software and say, here, build this 30 minute, you know, online learning about this topic. And I was like, wait a minute, you, how did you decide it needed to be 30 minutes? I know the [00:07:00] topic, you know, that didn't make sense. Um, how did you decide it was to be online? That's probably the least effective way to learn. And I'm glad you brought up like on the job, do we, um, Nobody ever, I shouldn't say that, the FAA at one point asked me to come in and build some on the job training. But for the most part, everybody just wanted, and I was like, you guys, No wonder nobody in your organization wants to learn. No wonder nobody's motivated. No wonder nobody has ambition. I don't like sitting down watching these presentations. Erin Donovan: It's pretty bad when you don't want to do your own training. But, but Cheryl, and let me ask you because, you know, I, I have made a major shift in my career and I know that the CEO, I'm, I'm very much like you, you know, I want to build, I want to consult, I want to come in and I want to, you know, I, I want to grow something and then move on, um. But how do you move from that? I'm just going to take your order. I'm just going to take your order, which is [00:08:00] typically, I think where women, we do very well, we take orders and we judge it up and we send it back out and everyone thinks it looks pretty and great, but it's very hard to, to get up there and say, well, listen, Like, have you considered this? Like, have you, is this a thoughtful approach? I mean, how, how have you in your career switched that? Or have Cheyrl Johnson: you? I wish I could say I have the magic pill, but I don't. And it's funny because, um, I've been doing this for like 30 years and I'm on the, I'm not 70. So I guess. I don't know, 20 years. Anyway, that aside, um, prior to COVID, I actually went out for a two year contract and worked at the University of California. And, um, I, my boss tasked me with creating, you know, exactly what we're talking about kind of thing. And, um, I gave it back to him and he, he [00:09:00] wasn't, he wasn't a real great boss. I, and it wasn't just my opinion. There was a lot of other people there that shared this kind of the same opinion and I gave it to him. And it's like, I hate this. This, I mean, he literally was like, this is terrible. And, um, my direct supervisor, which I absolutely loved and adored, really stuck up for me, which I was, I was glad because he was, he, the boss was kind of a bully and I don't stand up well to bullies, you know, and that's kind of my thing. He, he said, you know, um, basically. This is what you ask her to do. She gave you exactly what you ask. Now take your own medicine, you know, if you don't like this, you know, if you don't like it and you don't want to do this, what makes you think, you know, the people are. And that was a real turning point, I think, for them. Erin Donovan: Yeah. Cheyrl Johnson: And it was like, okay, now [00:10:00] that I've told you how to do it, and I've told you what I want, and I want you to do it my way. And you don't even like what, you know, your own results are. Here, let's turn around and, you know, that's why you hired her. You hired her because of her resume, because she can do all these wonderful things. And he's like, Oh, okay. And that, that was a light bulb moment. Erin Donovan: Yeah. I really liked that. And it, I think what I'm really searching for and where my ambition is taking me is to have, be able to have the confidence to have those conversations up front and be able to, you know, sit at the table and say, that's an idea. But let's consider this as well. And really pushing people out of the traditional learning space. It's, you know, thinking through what future state could look like. I feel like we cannot be order takers when we have the resume and the background and we can do what we want to do. We know what we can [00:11:00] do. We have to push, like, unfortunately we have to push those bullies aside. And I think for women, it's really hard. because we're, because when we push bullies aside and we're ambitious and we're confident and we say we actually know the answer and you don't, then we're considered, you know, the B word and we're considered, you know, not easy to work with or, you know, not a team player where if I think some of my male counterparts would sit at a table with maybe less information and less knowledge than I have, I feel like they'd be able to facilitate those conversations better. And I, I mean, maybe we just have to push the door and say, I don't really care what you think about me personally, but I can help your organization. Cheyrl Johnson: Yeah. And I think that's, I, you bring up a really valid point there. Um, when I, when you come in as a consultant and my, understanding is you hired me because you evidently don't have in house [00:12:00] people who can do this. Why would you be hiring an outside person if you didn't have anybody? And even though, you know, sometimes the dynamic between men and women can get interesting, I always found just because of who I am, um, that I worked better with men than I did with women. Me Erin Donovan: too. Cheyrl Johnson: A lot of times I would come in. Yeah. And women would see me as a threat. Yes. Erin Donovan: A hundred percent. Cheyrl Johnson: You know, and rather than see me as somebody who's here and I, I tell people outright, I mean, I started my career, not my career, my not learning and development career, but when I first started working at age 18 as a secretary and that's an old term, but yeah, that's how old I am. But I remember. I wanted to make my boss look good. I never wanted to be the CEO. I never, I never had ambition like that. I have a lot of ambition, but it's not toward those goals. And, um, once my boss has understood, Hey, I'm really here to [00:13:00] help you look good. They're like, Oh yeah. And I never quite could get women to understand that. They always saw me as competition as opposed to, Hey, I'm just here to make you look good. You know, as the leader of this organization, if you create some phenomenal training, guess what, your people are going to perform better and your numbers are, you know, CEO is always love numbers, um, you know, all these numbers are going to improve and I can show you how they're going to improve. And once they kind of caught that vision, it was like, Oh, okay, so let's, you know, go that direction. Erin Donovan: Yeah. And I think. Not only is it competition, but also we're external going into their house and that's another threat. You know, am I going to lose my job? And you know, is, is she going to, are they going to bring her in full time? And, and I, I completely agree with you. I feel that vibe much more from women that I've worked with, especially as an external consultant than I have with men. [00:14:00] Um, and honestly, most of the bullies that I've encountered have been women, not men. You know, I, I've, I've had a lot of allies in my career. I've been very lucky. I'm not saying they've been the most woke people in the world, but they want it to your point, Cheryl. Like I show up, I do a really good job. I'm respectful. I, I help them look better and I'm a part of their team. And it's much easier to get that message across. I think in a positive way with, with people who let's just say with people who are, who are open for success, for everyone to have success. Cheyrl Johnson: Yeah, a shared, a shared success. And I think one of the things, you know, I did write a book. It's called the Ambition Quotient and everything. But the only reason I bring that up is because so often when I come into an organization, especially like this University of California situation, I got tasked and I, I wasn't hired to do this, but I got [00:15:00] tasked with dealing with some interns. Yeah. Okay. And they, they were not very ambitious, to say the least. Erin Donovan: Shocker. Um, Cheyrl Johnson: but yeah, shock, shock. Right. Um, and I told these interns right up front, you're not here to make coffee. You're not here to, you know, do menial tasks. I'm giving you real projects. And I want you to do real work. You, you're going to be supporting me basically, you know, and that I saw some little light bulbs go on, you know, like, Hey, this was cool. Right. But it was still an extraordinary challenge. And interestingly enough, my direct supervisor, was a publisher and he had published my book. So he'd read my book, right? And I went to him one day and I was like, I'm ready to pull my hair out. What do I do with these guys? And he laughed at me. He says, go read Erin Donovan: your book. And I Cheyrl Johnson: was like, [00:16:00] okay, Well, you know, I Erin Donovan: love that because I, you know, as you were talking about your interns, I were, I was thinking about the many young people I've worked with in my career And it's all about reverse mentoring. Sometimes when they have said to me, like, this is how I see you. Or I don't see that in myself. I mean, I was all positive, but you know, like, I don't want to say like, I want to be like you when I grow up, but I think that I've realized how ambitious I am and how that comes across really when, when people like mirror me back and you know, and when I see, especially like young woman, I'm thinking of one I've worked with, who's a lovely girl, but like, she is. On it, she's on fire, she's excited, but I see traits that I have in myself in her, and I want, like, that's teaching me, like, the positive aspects of ambition, and, and how people are relating to her, and, and I don't think I would have [00:17:00] seen that without that mirror. Because, you know, it's great to be self reflective, but, you know, you can also kind of be self delusional too. Cheyrl Johnson: That is true, and you bring up mentoring, and I think mentoring, it's so funny to me, because we always think of training as somebody, With a wealth of knowledge, standing up in front of people and sharing that knowledge and just here, I'm giving it all to you. Just absorb it and run with it. I have found mentoring and that's really what I learned to do with these interns was to mentor them. And even though I, you know, had written this book, my supervisor was so good at helping me take even the ideas and thoughts that I'd written and really take them to a whole new level. And mentoring is such a key element. My daughter, um, has worked. You know, she worked for an airline for, I don't know, 10 years and just got rave reviews. Everybody loved her. She [00:18:00] was wonderful. She's come to a new job where it's, it's um, a slightly different environment and slightly, a whole different topic. It's property management as opposed to airline and sometimes I would overhear her conversations with her boss. And I could tell her boss was giving her a lot of feedback and a lot of ideas and saying, Hey, maybe if you approach this, you know, slightly this way, or you, you talk a little bit different this way. And so I asked her one day, I was like, Hey, what's up? You know, are you not doing so well at work? You know, whenever your boss having those kinds of conversations and I can hear them and she's like, Oh no, no, no, no. No, no, no. He's helping me. This is how he supports me. This is how he helps me become a better employee and to fit in in our culture and our environment. And I was like, wow, somebody gets it. This mentoring thing is big. Erin Donovan: It's awesome. And I, that's one thing. If I say, if I'm ambitious about anything, we conceptualize. Training [00:19:00] and learning and this idea of transactional space. I sit down, I learn, I go and do. That's not how it should be. I mean, we did great things in education that no one has really noticed, like model classrooms where people come in and watch you teach and observe. We have strong evaluation systems where literally we take things in small pieces. But on the other hand, In the corporate space, we have all these great tools that we could be using and we could be just blowing up and I think it's going to take different voices. to push that initiative rather than we just say, well, we're just in the training space. You know, we just do training. I just do e learning. I mean, that's, I think you've got to push it beyond that. And so concepts like mentoring and feedback loop and, and, you know, reflexive activities rather than just sit and get, that's our future state. Otherwise AI can just write everything, you know? Cheyrl Johnson: Oh yeah. I came across a tool Google made that's for AI, um, you [00:20:00] know, for instructional designers. And I was like, okay, they're already rewriting my job description and redoing it. I tried, I, I tried years, years and years ago to kind of try to flip that switch a little bit by changing my title from an instructional designer to a performance solution specialist. I want to improve performance. That's what I'm here for. But even that, you know, got, it got me a little ways, you know, it made some inroads with the people cause it's like, oh, Just out of curiosity, what's a performance solution specialist. But really when I tapped into the word ambition, that that's when I really caught their attention. And they're like, like you said, it's a double edged sword. And they're like, okay, how can I have ambitious employees that are not cutthroat, you know, climb the ladder of success, stomp on other people kind of. So I think redefining the word ambition in a positive way [00:21:00] will help us in our learning and development efforts because that's what learning and development is truly meant to do. I feel like I'm an ambitious person because I love to learn. Erin Donovan: I love that. Yeah, I, I love it. I love it. I feel like I'm an ambitious person because I want to define my path and I can do that through learning. Um, I think that one thing I felt as a woman is it's very planned. I don't know if you feel the same way, you know, like I graduated college, I got married, I got my first job. And then somewhere along the lines, like things didn't really work out. And, you know, here I am in South Carolina on a goat farm with an Irish guy, you know, and it's just like, um, I, but I felt the same way as soon as I got into corporate America, I felt like, okay, here's your path and your, you know, you'll get your crown when you're a CLO. And the more I saw what that job meant and the more I saw it, like it's all about the title, but it's not about the doing. I was like, [00:22:00] no, thank you. It's, I'm not doing that again. Not doing it again. You know? I mean, I don't know. How have you felt? Like, do you, have you felt like you've been on a path? Cheyrl Johnson: No. And what I felt like, Well, we'll go back a little bit to my early days again. My grand ambition was not to be a learning and development specialist. My grand ambition was to be a flight attendant. And I achieved, I achieved that by the time I was 21 and just kind of like, you know, the CLO thing I got in and I was like, Ooh, yeah, I like the travel benefits, but Ooh, this, this might not be exactly what I, you know, had wanted. And so then I had kids, you know, and I, I never really wanted kids and, you know. We won't go into all that history, but what I eventually wrote a whole program on failure. Because so much throughout my life, I felt like everything I did was a failure because I didn't get that crowning jewel, that CLO title. Not that that's what I [00:23:00] wanted, but that I was like, I, I, I never felt like I was successful because I would go in, I would build some training. It was horrible. I knew it. They knew it. They paid me. They wrote good reviews for me, but, and I, so I wrote this whole thing on failure and how important it is, you know, and we're seeing more and more of this lately about how failure actually is a catalyst to success. Yeah. Erin Donovan: Yeah. I, I feel a hundred percent the same way. When I look at the learning moments in my life, it's been those points of failure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's been when I had to, you know, move really quickly and I had to make a change and I, you know, I was pushed kind of back into a corner and I fought my way out. Well, that's how I learned, you know, that was, that was what was most important. But I think, um, when you think of measuring ambition and I, I guess I'm going to throw this to you, I think like how, if you went into a company, how would you do that? How would you [00:24:00] say, this is how we can measure ambition in a positive way. Cheyrl Johnson: Measuring, you know, it's an abstract concept and it's defined by so many people in so many different ways that I think that's hard, but I, I think it goes back to, if I go back to these interns that I managed, you know, right at the University of California, when these kids walked in the door at 8 a. m. and, you know, Students, 8 a. m. is not a good time for them, and you know how this open office environment where you have all these cubicles and then you have these little, I can't remember what kind of rooms they're called, you know, where you go in if you want to have a private phone call or whatever. I had one student who literally came in, pulled his hoodie over his, you know, his head, put his head down with the light off and slept. Erin Donovan: I wouldn't say that would be a high level of ambition. Cheyrl Johnson: Exactly. Now I had another girl who was very ambitious and she was, you know, I gave her assignments. She [00:25:00] showed up on time. She was motivated. She did everything. But I think in terms of. I wouldn't necessarily say we measure ambition. It's, I would say that we cultivate ambition. And with her, she, although she was really what most people would consider ambitious because she did everything that was asked of her, she wasn't really good at taking feedback. And so we had to, you know, reframe that feedback as, Hey, this, you're an intern, you're here to learn. Think of this, like going to your classroom. The biggest thing that they had, To overcome was, I go to class, I get an assignment, I get a C, I passed, I move on. And it's like, oh no, no, that's not how it works in the work world. I give you an assignment. It may not be exactly what I wanted. I'm giving you feedback. Now you go back and redo it and come back. And ultimately, we measure success by, oh, this project is successful. [00:26:00] Now with my other one who liked to sleep, I had to find something that was of interest to him. I was giving him projects that weren't interesting to him. Erin Donovan: And Cheyrl Johnson: I was like, okay, well, I only have a certain number of projects I can give you. So I asked him, what's of interest to you? Once I gave him something that was of interest to him, Voila, I had this motivated person. Erin Donovan: Yeah. And I, so I love what you're saying and it really resonates with me because I think oftentimes women are considered ambitious if they complete tasks that are given to them, and I think they are. thought of as pushy when they create their own tasks or when they say I'd like to do this. And yet to me, that's the definition of ambition. So if I say, here's your project and you say, okay, cool. I want to go here, here, here, here, here. Like, here's how I'm going to reconceptualize this and, and be excited about it. I think that's ambition. I think going to the library and self [00:27:00] selecting a book because you want to learn about this is ambitious. You've said it. And I mean, I, you know, Your ambition is all about learning. I think mine is the same way. Um, I think that's ambition. I think the biggest switch for me is switching from external validation to internal validation. I think I can really own my ambition when I feel like I can be internally validated by my success rather than I have to wait for someone to say that I'm a good girl and then I'll be ambitious and motivated. That's, That's my measurement. Cheyrl Johnson: Has anyone ever called you a maverick? Erin Donovan: People call me a lot of words. laughs But I'm going to take maverick. I'm going to take that. Cheyrl Johnson: Well, somebody called me a maverick early on. And once again, it's like ambition. It's like, oh, you're a maverick. You always want to go above and beyond. You always want to, you know, take what we've [00:28:00] given you and, you know, make it better and make it, improve it and, and, and do it, you know, I'll do it all on my own. I'm not asking for your help. I'm not asking for more money. I'm not asking for, you know, You know, whatever. And he was like, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not a compliment. And I was like, Erin Donovan: oh, Cheyrl Johnson: oh, Oops. Erin Donovan: Wait a second. Wow. Cause I would totally take that as a compliment. Cheyrl Johnson: Me too. I was like, oh, good. Yeah. It's interesting how we define words. Erin Donovan: It is interesting. And it is interesting how we will, as Mavericks, Take and do, and not ask for extra money, and not ask, ask for, we'll just do it because of the sheer love of doing it. And because we know we can do it right, and we can do it better, and then people are like, Yeah, we didn't ask for a 900 page, we just wanted a one pager. Cheyrl Johnson: Yeah. Erin Donovan: It's like, but you need a 900 page. Yeah. Cheyrl Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. I can create all these games and these simulations and we can do all this [00:29:00] on the job training and we can do this and they're like, no, would you please just sit down and create us a 30 minute online learning module? I'm like, oh, okay. Erin Donovan: So, so that's that. Okay. I have to ask you another question then. So how, I know like we, that's our business and we keep going. But one thing I found in corporate life when it was very much capitalized in a job, my ambition was squashed because I kept, people kept telling me, slow down, you're working too fast and we don't want that. And I was just like, I'm so bored. So how do you keep going? How do you keep your ambition up and excited and fueled up? Cheyrl Johnson: Well, what I learned to do as a consultant was early on, you know how it is early on in your career, you take, as a consultant, you take any work that somebody will give you, you don't care. Yeah. And, you know, you interview and they love your resume and they tell you you're going to do these great things and then you get in there and you find out that it's not really what you wanted. So, [00:30:00] thank goodness, I, you know, my husband makes good money and we don't need my income. I mean, we did early on. Yeah. And you know, that was all necessary, but thank goodness these days I don't. So I go in and interview them. Erin Donovan: I love that. Cheyrl Johnson: And if they, if they are not willing to allow me to interview them, then they're not the kind of people I want to work for. Erin Donovan: I love it. I think I'm going to put that on my wall, just like interview them. Although I cannot do that right now, but I mean, I, but I, but why not? I think that's fantastic. And so what, what's a deal breaker for you? Cheyrl Johnson: When they tell me I'm going to see, I got really good at asking them, you know, like I said, they always wanted my resume and everything on it. But I, I ask them what's my day to day activities going to be like, you know, and when they start to, first of all, when they start telling me certain things and I'm like, okay, Well, what are you trying to accomplish? You know, and that always throws them for a loop. [00:31:00] That's always like, Ooh, I don't know how nobody ever asked me what I was trying to accomplish other than just check the box. We got that little learning module out the door and I'll be honest. Most of the time they come back and they're like, Oh, you just didn't seem like you were a good fit for us. And I'm like, Oh, you're probably right. And I'm okay with that. It took, it was hard. It's always hard for rejection. Yeah. for whatever reason. That's kind of how I do it is, you know, just asking them and when they come back with certain answers and the certain answers are always, you know, okay. We have subject matter experts, you're going to interview them, you're going to get the content, and then you're going to put it in Captivate, or Starline, or whatever tool they have, and away you go. Erin Donovan: Yeah, I love that. Well, I found something, and I think especially as you work in different situations, um, [00:32:00] I've had a real test of my values as far as ambition goes, I guess in the last few years, but the idea of working ambitiously, but with integrity is sometimes very hard. And I think it's to your point, Cheryl, it's saying no to people who you know, aren't going to be a good fit and, or no to a project. That might not be a good fit and it's scary because you think if I say no, I'm not gonna get another job They're gonna tell everyone Aaron doesn't work well, or you know, they're not gonna recommend me I might what if I don't have enough money for next month or whatever, but I found that Integrity and ambition have to go hand in hand because then even if someone says she's a bossy girl Well, it doesn't matter because I stood I I did this project with integrity You And I mean, as you formed your career, is there anything like that you felt, I don't know, you had to compromise [00:33:00] in order, you know, in order to get a book published and be successful and be a first call? Cheyrl Johnson: Um, yes. Early on I compromised a lot and I was really unhappy and I liked that you bring up integrity because as I started working with integrity and as I started, you know, being very honest with people during the interview process or whatever up front. You know, it's interesting. This whole University of California thing is always interesting. They hired me because of my resume. Wonderful. Great. I got there. And the job was not at all what I thought. It wasn't. Um, there was a small piece of it that was, like I said, what my boss boss wanted. But they had so much confidence in me. They were giving me things to do that I, like, even, I'd never managed, I mean, I'd somewhat managed interns before, but not on this level.[00:34:00] And they, they were giving me, like, um, data analysis projects, UX, UI stuff. I'm like, I've never done this. And they're like, Hey, we have confidence in you. We know you can do it. And I was like, okay, this, You know, the UX UI thing was like, okay, I can see how important that is to learning and development. I'd never thought of it that way. This is great. Well, data analysis. Yes, that's important to learning and development. I never thought of it. I'm not a data analyst, but here they had the fact that they had so much confidence in me really inspired me this late in my career. To take my game to a whole new level and I felt like I was working with integrity and I, I loved, I, my, my husband's like, wow, I've never seen you be so excited to wake up and go to work every day, you know, I was like, yeah, and I think that's important from both, you know, the perspective of a consultant, you and I, or whatever. But if we're ever in a position to manage people, [00:35:00] if we want the people that we manage to be ambitious, we need to change. Make sure they are working with integrity. Yeah. Erin Donovan: Yeah. And, and to your point with your sleeper, you know, I thought back to my eighth graders, it's, You know, it's all about giving them stuff they're interested in and engaging them and allowing them to have that sense of integrity. So it's, I think this is a, a good, a good way to end and, uh, celebrate ambition. Ambition with integrity. Cheyrl Johnson: Yes. I think that's perfect. Ambition with Integrity, and I think that would resonate well with everyone. Host: Ambition with Integrity, what a phrase. We loved, loved, loved this recording, and have listened back a few times already to make sure we picked up the nuance and subtleties. This is a rich conversation, and we are so grateful to Cheryl and Erin [00:36:00] for an amazing contribution. You can as always find their details in the show notes along with all their links and contact information. You will also find some links to some of the things they discussed and topics of interest. We are on a great run of episodes and have more to come. Next time we'll be bringing you the onboarding one and it is, again, another you will not want to miss. As always, thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon.