Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts Radio. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. Thanks for being with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Indeed, as we consider the Nvidia story today, one hundred billion dollar investment in open AI, and it immediately raises questions about energy, the demand for clean, renewable energy to power so many of these projects and data centers that are sprouting out of the earth like weeds. Energy and securing more of it was a big part of the conversation
earlier today with the Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. The Democrat, spent some time with Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall as he attended a thirteen state summit to discuss the future of the PJM interconnection. This is the biggest power grid operator in the United States, not just in the region, serving over sixty seven million customers, stretching from Chicago to New Jersey.
It's a lot of power. It's the first conference here gathering the thirteen states, and Tyler started by assis Governor Shapiro about prices, steps that can be taken to lower the cost of energy. Let's listen.
We're here in Philadelphia, which is not only the birthplace of democracy was here that PGMs started ninety eight years ago.
And I think this conversation that we're having right here at the National Constitution Center is really the first of its kind opportunity for people from all thirteen states, from all the different entities that make up a PJM, are here to have a conversation on how we can enact real reforms so we can hold down costs and increase power generation and give states, the governors and representatives of
our states, more of a say in the process. PGM has kind of been a black box for too many years, and as a result of that, they're two darns slow, and they are raising costs at really an alarming rate. And so I think what you're going to hear from all the different states today, by the way, led by Democrats and Republicans, is a desire to see real reform
at PGM. I just kicked off the conference here, and I think folks are ready for a good and honest and spirited discussion about how we fix PGM going forward.
Well, Governor, since you referenced your opening remarks, you said that if PGM refuses to change, we will be forced to go in a different direction. Do you mean to leave PJM.
We're willing to if PGM is unwilling to enact real reforms to give governors and our representatives more of a seat at the table in a say, in these policies so we can both control costs and increase power generation. Listen, I'm in to all of the above. Energy governor overseeing a state that's the second largest energy producer in this country. We need to produce more energy as a nation to give us more economic opportunity and more freedom. And because
of PGM, we've been stymied in our efforts. It has slowed us down, and at the same time lowing us down, it's increasing costs. So if PGM is not willing to look in the mirror and really reform itself, then I'm willing to go my own way, and Pennsylvania can stand alone in this effort. We can produce enough energy for us, and we can produce enough energy at a far quicker
rate than PGM is able to. Right now, we recognize that that would have a significant impact on these thirteen states that make up PGM, or the twelve other states, I should say, as well as the entire nation, just given the energy dominant position we're standing in. So our first hope is that there'd be real reform. But mark my words, if they're unwilling to do real reform, we're willing to go it alone.
Well when would you make that decision? Do you have a timeline or a deadline that you're giving PJM to respond to the changes that you want to see.
Well, look, I've already sued PGM successfully when they tried to jack up rates on Pennsylvania consumers and other consumers in them great area. We won that suit and we were able to save consumers nearly twenty billion dollars in added costs. Today, we've just embarked on this important reform conversation. I want to see how that goes. I'm not giving them a long leash here, but i want to give them some time to see if they're willing to reform.
If they make clear that they're unwilling to reform, they're going to keep doing it their own way, then we're going to have to go our own way and governor.
We know part of this conversation has to do with the power consumption related to big tech and artificial intelligence. Your state has secured a twenty billion dollar investment pledge from Amazon for data centers as one example. How much pain do you think us consumers are going to be willing to bear here when it comes to the need to invest in this critical technology.
Well, we have the capacity to be able to do both here in Pennsylvania at affordable rates. We can walk in chew gum here in our commonwealth. We can allow a consumer in their home to be able to flip the switch on and not see added costs when the lights go on in their home, and to know that the lights are going to go on on the hottest days of summer in the coldest days of winter. At the same time, we can be open for business and land. As you noted, an initial twenty billion dollar investment from
AWS to build out data centers. We've got other major economic development announcements that are on the way, and I think energy is a critically important component to any of these big energy deals. What we're doing here in Pennsylvania is turning on energy sources like we did at the Old Three Mile Island. We're converting old coal fire power plants into natural gas run power plants, which are both cleaner and are now able to produce new energy onto
the grid. The problem is, we're moving quickly in Pennsylvania, but PGM, too, oftentimes is slowing us up. I no longer want to be constrained by PJM moving not at the speed of business, but too darn slow. If they can't move quickly, if they can't reform themselves, We're going to figure out how to do this on our own. Economic development and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is directly tied to energy generation, which is also directly tied to keeping
consumer costs down. We need to do all of it, we need to do it quickly.
And Governor, big tech companies say that they want to pay their fair share when it comes to this, what would that look like in practice.
Well, making sure that they invest in creating new energy or paying for the energy they use on the grid if the grid has capacity for both them and consumers and other businesses. That's certainly the kind of deals that we negotiate here in Pennsylvania.
And Governor, in the final minutes that we have with you, President Trump last month said that his administration will not approve solar or wind power projects. This as part of a bid to tighten the federal permitting a process around renewables. Has this changed your strategy in Pennsylvania, which is a top energy producing state.
Well, look, I'm in all of the above energy governor. I wish the President was in all of the above energy present. The President's actions are making it harder for us here in Pennsylvania. In fact, as a result of cutting a bunch of tax credits for clean energy projects, the President is putting twenty six thousand Pennsylvania jobs, mostly union trade jobs, at risk of being lost when these projects shut down. I mean, I don't know why he's trying to make it harder for us to generate energy.
We should generate solar and wind energy, natural gas energy, and other nuclear and other forms of energy. I don't know why he's taking these steps that are making it harder for us in Pennsylvania. I'm a governor that wants to unleash our full potential. We do that by having a full range of energy options available. I think the President's policies are misguided. It's going to put people out of work, and it's going to make it harder for Pennsylvania to compete.
And lastly, a governor just sticking on the President's policies because part of the conversation when we are talking about energy production does have to do with the workforce. And we saw over the weekend the administration move to impose a one hundred one thousand dollars fee for each one
B visa applicants. I'm wondering if you see this for impacting any of the sectors that we're talking about here, particularly around tech, as Pennsylvania wants to attract those workers and those investments from these big companies.
I think the president's immigration policies are making it harder for us to compete, and I hear that on our farm lands in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania all the way to our universities here in Pennsylvania. When we can't attract great talent to be able to produce our food or to be able to produce the next major invention or
innovation that makes us less competitive as a nation. The President's immigration policies, combined with his tariff policies, are making it harder for us to compete and driving up the cost of goods in this commonwealth and across this country. I think what the President's doing is harming America, isolating America and making it harder for workers here in Pennsylvania, from our farmlands to our universities.
Governor Joshapiro, Democrat from Pennsylvania, in conversation with Tyler Kendall,