Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The Bloomberg invest Conferences underway in New York. Earlier, Bloomberg's Jason Kelly spoke with Mark Attanasio, the chairman and principal owner of the Milwaukee Brewers baseball club, and Tom Warner, chairman and co founder of Fenway Sports Group. Here's some of their conversation.
We're talking about golf. We're to talk about sports.
I'm so delighted to have both of you here because you were at the white hot center of something we all care deeply about, which is the world of sports. I want to start with golf. You guys are both part of the Strategic Sports Group, which made a big investment in the PGA, and I want to put up a couple slides that Tom you were nice enough to share with me that talk about the growth of the game and the opportunity that presents itself in golf.
If we can get those, it's somewhere. Okay, it's really big. There we go there, So there's us.
I mean, these are staggering numbers, and I think maybe I certainly when I had looked at them when you send them to me, I was surprised at how big these numbers are.
Can we go to the next one because it gives them Okay, please?
The first slide is about the popularity of golf in the United States. Part of what made us all excited about it is that this is really a global sport. So you know, when you think about the one hundred and two billions spent in golf that's in the United States.
And of course there's a bigger number worldwide.
Yeah, so let's look at the global numbers because it does feel like that's at the core of this business case.
So that if we go to the next slide about the global.
I mean that is a staggerer almost four hundred million people. So Mark, I want to start with you, why do this deal? I mean, obviously the numbers pencil out, but golf, if you look at it, if anyone falls the headlines, not exactly, it's not not a mess when it comes to a business.
Is that part of the attraction?
Well, it starts with the macro and the brand. Yeah.
And I was sitting I'm on a committee with John, actually a couple of committees with John and Tom at Major League Baseball John Henry and they were talking about the opportunity here, but I didn't realize that what they were working on. They just talked about some of the challenges that were being faced and I said to John, well, to me, given that brand, the more challenges, the more opportunity. Right, thirty three years of investing at Crescent, that's what we found.
You know, the easy investments don't really create a lot of opportunity that more difficult ones do. So Tom and John called me a few days later and said, were you really serious on how you looked at that? And would you invest in the PGA and course? And I still didn't know what they were working on, and then they let me under the tent and it's it's extremely exciting.
And so Tom, what was it for you?
I mean you you know your Fenway Sports Group, obviously the Red Sox, Liverpool, Pittsburgh Penguins, Nessen, the Sports Network and more.
What was it about golf that jumped out to you?
Well?
As most of you know, the structure of golf a couple of years ago is that it was a nonprofit and the players were independent contractors. And so this now is a league that the players are now owners, they have equity in the league, and uh, this SSG and Fenway Sports Group are really investing in the commercial growth of the game, and of course it all starts with,
you know, what can create a better fan experience. And you know, we are grateful that we were selected because it was a very competitive situation to invest in the new structure. But you know, we think that and Mark is part of this group, that the operational experience that we have in sports can benefit the players and be a resource.
And so so take us inside this proverbial ten a little bit, like what do you need to do, Like what's the low hanging fruit here? And what are the things you're seeing that can be relatively easily fixed or changed to improve those elements.
Well, one thing that Jay Monahan, who we think is a very strong leader, is doing is we are commencing a very extensive research study that it's called Fan Forward. But Rob Manfred did the same thing in i think twenty nineteen where we did a about what was good about baseball how to make the experience better, and you know a lot of positive changes have come from that.
But but you know, we're going to be listening to our fans and you know, just one one idea that we've been talking about is when you think about the experience of going to an event on the tour, that we are trying to event tize it and make it really more must see. And somebody at the PGA was looking at Louisville. You know, they have an event every year that is really just two minutes long in its actual composition of the Kentucky Derby, but around it they
have a week long festival. So one of the things that we're talking about is how to create experiences at PGA tour events that will make them more attractive.
And so Mark as you look at this you're a global investor. Obviously, one of the elements that is clearly at play here is live.
What needs to happen.
Well, if you look at the golfers, whether they're at Live or PGA, these are some of the best athletes in the world, and across all sports, you want to see the best athletes competing against each other. That's why, for example, you have so much interest in the Olympics, and so we you know, we've hoped to be a bridge or a catalyst to try to bring the golfers back together so they could compete more than just a handful of times each year.
What's your level of confidence at this moment that that'll happen.
Well, look, we're all optimistic, right we know, so we know how difficult it is and what the hurdles are, including some regulatory ones. Yeah, but it really should happen, and so I think it will.
And so Tom when you think about you know, one of the things that is very compelling about sort of the data underneath this is this notion of sort of off course. You know, many of us in this room, for better worse, go out and hack it around the you know, nine or eighteen holes. But increasingly more people,
especially younger people, are experiencing golf in different ways. How do you, through the PGA monetize, I mean, how do you take advantage of that movement towards the top golf and the sims and whatnot.
Well, the first thing is to acknowledge that one factoid I think it was up there is that more people were playing off course golf in twenty twenty three than encore.
So they're both growing.
But off course golf things like top golf, is very attractive. So you know, it is all about the popularity of the game. One of the great things about golf as opposed to the NFL, for example, which you know has its own great attributes.
Is that people are playing it.
And so when they're watching watching golf, they are participants in the sports. So you know, whether they you know, play golf at their country club or they're playing mini golf, you know, with their local local hangout, it's all good for the game.
And that's you know, five year olds can play. Or Hall of Fame announcer Bob Yucker turned ninety, he still plays golf pretty well, actually right, that's.
And what about the you know, both of you, I mean Tom, obviously your your experience and success in in the in the media world is very well known. You have created, you know, many beloved shows, are still creating beloved shows on on multiple platforms.
What's the media side of the of golf?
And then I want to talk about some other sports, but like, what's what's the media play here for you?
Well, I think we focused too much on Nielsen ratings, even though they're obviously very important. But the platforms that golf is on, the social media, you know, people are it's growing exponentially on social media, and it's all it's all about how to communicate the game to the consumer in a variety of ways.
And so what's the what's the non obvious mark lest golf question for now? What what's the non obvious thing that could help golf in your mind? Like, what's the surprise as you got into it and said, this is a nonprofit you know they're doing this, they're doing that. Like what was the thing where you're like, oh, well, just do this or you know that it surprises me that this is going on here.
Well, I think the best athletes in the world want to compete against each other.
Yeah, and and so.
Underlying, however, we got to where we are now, you would you would think they'd want to be able to go head to head. And I'm hoping that that undercurrent will will prevail.
So let's talk a little baseball if we can.
And both of you were, you know, owners of Major League Baseball teams, and when you think about this, we were talking a little bit about this backstage. You know, Tom, this was a sport baseball. You know, I grew up watching it. I'm sure many people in the in this audience did. And folks you know watching this, and yet it seemed to be running into a little bit of trouble over the last couple of years. Competition committee, you know, gets together and and make some real changes. It feels
like it's made a difference. Tell us what it looks like from from your perspective when you actually get down to the numbers.
Well, we know, we know it's made a difference because the fans have have told us that that one of the most important changes in Mark and I are very supportive of of all these these changes, is that the game was too long. We all knew that it was over three hours in length for a night and nine inning game. And the pitch clock really has transformed a game. Now the game averages about two hours and thirty five minutes per game, and so people were not leaving in
the six or seventh inning. But that's just part of an initiative to make changes. You know, the NFL makes changes every year and nobody notices it, and every change in baseball is scrutinized.
But along with the.
Pitch clock, we've made some other changes. We now have rules about defensive alignment, which allow more balls.
To be in play.
The size of each base is larger, which encourages stealing, and so there were rules that have already been implemented. And last year, you know, again, another factoid is over seventy million people came to Major League baseball games, which dwarfs the combined attendance of the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL. So we could do probably a better job touting that, but to people are going to baseball games, you know the minor leagues.
The most watched sport live in the country is Major League baseball. The second most watch sport is minor league baseball. So you know, the game and and I think a lot of the demographics don't get picked up. You have increasing interest on from you know, Latin American community for example, and it's not clear that all of that younger demographic
interest is picked up in the numbers. So look, there's nothing more riveting than the ninth inning of a baseball game, right And and you know, to Tom's point on on the.
Some of the changes the pace of game, the action.
So two years ago, you'd have the shortstop and short right field almost like a softball player, and the ball would go right to them. Now you've got second basement diving and making plays. There's a lot more action and and a lot more you know, for the fans to engage with.
You know.
One of the underlying themes of of your investments, and the golf thing fits into this too, is this sort.
Of global view.
You know, Mark, you more recently have have gotten into the world of football soccer, Tom, you've been there, you know, via Liverpool. What is it you take from that experience and you apply back to you know, some of your US side investments. Tom, I'll start with you, like, what have you picked up from Liverpool? You're like, okay, we need to do that either from a management perspective or an organizational perspective.
Well, the Premier League, and Mark is involved in English football too, is a very popular sport globally. You know. Sometimes we have that narrow focus of the United States, but we are very pleased to be in the Premier League. And many more people watch in Manchester United a Liverpool match than the super Bowl.
So we're aware of that.
And and part of what we bring to all of our investments is relationships with sponsors because they fuel our growth. Part of our operational expertise is the relationships we have in Liverpool, for example, with ups Google. This week we announced a new partnership with Japan Airlines, so you know, we are we are excited to be in the Premier League.
So Mark you looking at and saying, I'm sorry, did you say relegation?
Like what ocean relegation?
What?
Well?
What?
What created the opportunity for us was relegation. North City Canaries were relegated from the Premier League to the Championship League. And that that's what created. Out of adversity comes opportunity.
And what I've.
Taken from it is the you know, this is this team, This club has been in existence over one hundred years.
They have the.
Oldest fight song in English football. And what struck me sort of I really knew very little about football or soccer as somewhat the ted lasso of owners was that the fans were close supporters, and the way you engage with your supporters is meaningful in such a way that almost when you're born in Norfolk County in the east
of the UK, you start wearing yellow and green. So we've looked how to take that sort of feeling and bring it to Milwaukee, where we have a natural, you know, fan base that grew up with the Milwaukee Brewers.
And we've learned a lot of lessons from that.
And so as you look across you just have a couple of minutes left. But so as you look across the sports opportunity landscape, you do this golf deal, it's you know, three billion dollars. The amount of money that is pouring into sports is breathtaking. And I sat on the stage earlier with Josh Harrison talked about that do you worry about sort of the cost and the valuation is getting so high? Tom, Like, what do you what do you look at You guys have been doing this for a long time.
Now, Well, I look at it differently.
I think that in Mark would agree that as an asset class, investing in sports has shown to has been demonstrated to be very attractive to investors, and more and more people are investing in sports as an asset. You know, part of our we are in partnership with Redbird Capital, We're in partnership with Arctos that has a fund that invests in multiple teams in major sports.
So the fact is that.
Sports as a part of life is immensely important, and it's one of the things that brings people together. And obviously there's revenue implications for that, and the live.
Event business is booming.
So I'm very optimistic about the future of sports and the future of teams in a world in which they there's obviously scarcity value.
So mark anything that you're like, no, I'm not gonna I'm I'm good for now when it comes to sports or something that you want to get into that you.
Haven't yet well to the point on some of this twenty plus years ago, when I bought the Brewers, I knew my In fact, my wife came into the study one day. My wife, Devian, said, you're not going to
lose all our money, are you? And so I had The Bank of America did a study back twenty years ago that showed it was a non correlated asset class that didn't you know, would be somewhat recession resistant, which sort of is we found in COVID that you know, yeh might be different for what's a live event business, but I yeah, So look, we're looking at everything from women's volleyball to professional sailing and and and other leagues to invest in. But you know, I think at some
point there'll be differentiation. There's some sport that don't make sense to me. What's probably the greatest opportunities, not just clear. What the land will be is college sports, yeah, and enormous revenue opportunities, and that they're not organized yet, they're getting organized to take advantage of it. So we've made a toe hold investment in a company that's involved with the Big twelve and we'll see.
So Tom will sort of wrap where we started with, you know, with golf, this big opportunity.
What does success look like for you? You know, as you.
Sort of embarched on this, you put together this pretty incredible roster of investors a year from now, two years from now, Like what a success looking feel like?
Well, we're patient, but success is the fact that the best players will be playing in events in a schedule that works for the players and the audience.
Mark agreat FSG has a real sense of agency here, and you know, I think that's going to prove out.
Mark Attanasio, the chairman and principal owner of the Milwaukee Brewers Baseball Club, and Tom Werner, chairman and co founder of Fenway Sports Group, speaking with Bloomberg's Jason Kelly at the Bloomberg invest Conference