Now I'm joined by James Cleverly, who is one of the four candidates to lead the Conservative Party. James, thanks so much for joining me. I want to start with the latest from the Middle East, because of course you are also former Foreign secretary. Israel says that it started targeted ground raids in Lebanon. Has Benjaminettaya who gone too far?
So we have to understand that Israel has been receiving rocket attacks from Hezbollah based out of southern Lebanon for months. When I went to Israel as foreign sectory in the days immediately after the October the seventh atrocities, I warned the leadership around Israel in the Arab world, and I sent the message via intermediaries to know through to the leadership of these Iranian proxy terror organizations that it would be really counterproductive for them to try and further provoke
at Israel. Clearly that's exactly what they've done, and Israel has responded. Israel has the right to self defense. Yeah, and those rockets have been landing in civilian or aimed at civilian territory in Israel for months.
But when has this gone too far? If it becomes a larger and longer term operation. Should the UK suspend more arms licenses to Israel or is our support unconditional?
No, It's what this is about is we've got to recognize the sequencing here. Israel was attacked by terrorists from Gaza. They then took action to recover hostages and people that have been murdered from Gaza. Hezbollah, based in southern Lebanon, nowhere near Gaza, took that as an opportunity to start sending missiles into Israel. The Huthis, based nowhere near Gaza, took that as an opportunity to send missiles into Israel.
Israel is now defending itself. I've always said to the Israelis that we support their right to self defense, and I stand by that. I've always said to the Israelis, to the President, to the Prime Minister, to the Defense Minister, they have to do so within the framework of international humanitarian law. But you've got to remember the rockets came into Israel before Israel sent troops into southern Lebanon.
Okay, let's turn to your leadership, bid now. We're expecting you to say later today that Tories should be fighting four things rather than always appearing to be against change and for you that includes being four building more homes. Will you let more migrants in to build those homes?
Well, what we should be doing is making sure that we develop skills with British workers. I think vocational training, lifelong training, skills training is absolutely key. Not everyone wants to wear a suit and sit behind a desk.
And everyone wants to build homes.
Absolutely But the point is if we if we make those really key skills high status once again as they once were, make sure that they are well paid as they once were. There is every reason why British people should be in the building trade and proud to be in the building trade. So our first port of call should not be importing cheap labor. We've done that for far too long and actually the OBR now shows us it is not a net benefit to the British economy.
So we shouldn't slip down that route again, and I wouldn't do.
That, But of course wage inflation is a key concern for the Bank of England with its inflation problem. You also say that you want to cut the cost of childcare, would you relax those migration rules to let in more childcare workers?
Now again, that We can't just keep We can't just keep going back to the old levers. We have tried, and you know we were punished by the voters for this. We as a society, we have slipped into the habit of turning into cheap imported labor to solve all our problems rather than productivity. One of the points I was making about childcare is government intervention through red tape and tax has made it more expensive than in France or
in Germany. We then tax working mums in order to subsidize those working mums to pay for the childcare that we made more expensive. It is a nonsense. We should be reducing the cost of childcare, having career to child ratios more in line with our European counterparts. That would bring down the cost, rather than having to tax working mums in order to subsidize the process.
As suppose, I'm trying to work out if you're serious about these ideas or if you're telling people what they want to hear. Because you served loyally in the Johnson Trust and Sunat government, so people want to know what you've stand for. What is cleverlyism?
Well, so when I was a minister in someone else's administration. I abided by a collective responsibility and I would often be the spokesperson for that Prime minister. I am putting my forward. I'm putting myself forward to be the next Conservative Prime Minister of this country. So it is now it's not just appropriate, but I am duty bound to set out my vision and what that So my vision
is a more productive economy. We have regulated ourselves to be a less productive economy than many of our international competitors. That has got to change. We are too highly taxed compared with many of our international competitors. That has got to change, so less tax, less red tape. We've also got to make sure we are properly defended, which is why I'm committed to three percent of defense spending. And also when I say less tax I don't just mean
nibbling away at margins, which is really important. I want to make sure we send a message both domestically and internationally that Britain is open for business. We're going to build, build, build, We're going to get our economy firing again. We're going to do that by taking the limiters away to unlock potential,
both in individuals and in British based businesses. We've got to get the energy optimism, positivity, but some real energy and that will attract international investors and support British worker.
Just to go back to defense, since you say it's central to your vision, is the UK government doing enough to extract those British citizens from Lebanon?
Well, when I was foreign sectary, I changed the travel advice to advise people not to go to Lebanon. The British government has been telling people for weeks they should they should leave Lebanon. The point is it may well be it is quite likely to be impossible to do a facilitated evacuation from Leven. This is why we tell people to leave. If people don't leave, we can't guarantee that we can get them out, which is why we told them to leave in the first place.
Okay, and you say that economics is going to be at the heart of your vision. I was listening to Liz Trust yesterday. She said she hadn't seen any evidence that any of you running for the Tory leadership really understand why things are so bad for the Conservatives. Is she right?
Look, I'm a really good friend of Liz. She was a good boss when she was foreign sectary.
She's not back to you, She's not back to anyone.
No, she's not back to anyone. We're trying to understand. None of the former prime ministers have are backed the leadership candidates, and that makes perfect sense. I don't always agree with Liz, and I don't agree with her on this case. I am setting out a very very clear agenda, which is to ease the tax burden on both businesses and individuals to really get activity back in the UK economy. I want to push for greater productivity, particularly when excessive
regulation is stifling that productivity. I want to make sure that we defend ourselves properly. Three percent is an upturn from where we are at the moment, but three percent on defense is considerably less expensive than going to war. Ukraine is spending forty percent of its GDP on de ending itself. Three percent is cheap and creating a safe environment is good for British people, good for British.
Business, which Trump right on NATO.
Well that I've been advocating that all NATO members spent at least that two percent. I speak to friends in Eastern Europe who are literally bordering Russia and they are crying out for all NATO members to spend the two percent, which is a commitment that Karris Bay commitment is really, really key. I've always said that I want to go further. I'm going to spend three percent of GDP on defense.
And you know you talk about business regulation, cutting red tape, and yet there are very few CEOs here. Why do you think they've abandoned the party.
Well, I we've got to recognize that we're not in government anymore. Of course, people want to influence the party of government and because we dropped the ball that is not us. We need to win back the ear of British business, British voters, British people. I know that I am best placed to do that. That is why I am running, and that is why I know I'd be the best leader of the opposition and ultimately take us back into government and become Prime minister.
Do you worry that Kemmy Badenox's comments on maternity pay are going to put women off the party.
Well they shouldn't. This is a party that has had not one, not two, but three female prime ministers. We promote on merit I very much, and I've made this point. I really value, the embedded talent in working women, and those who want to go back to work should be able to do so. The cost of childcare, as I say,
is putting a lot of them off. That's what I want to tackle, so that everyone in society, whether you're a parent or not, can play an active part in the economy, and that will remain a priority for me.
But just finally, some of the briefing again, kemmy Badenock has been pretty toxic. Are you Tom Tooganheart and Robert Jenerick colluding against her?
No, no, no, no no. I've made it absolutely clear in my campaign right from the start that we would run an optimistic and positive campaign. I said, anyone in my team involved in blue and Blue is off the team. No yellow card, no second chance, You're off the team.
I intend to campaign as I intend to lead, as I intend to govern, which is by putting the best foot forward, being optimistic, promoting my values and my ideas, and not talking down of my friends, because every single one of these other candidates is not just a colleague but also a friend.
The manager James Cleverly, Shadow Home Secretary well hoping to be the next leader of the Conservative Party, good to join you in Birmingham. Thank you, thanks very much.