Trade Is Now War, Kotok Says

To discuss you want to us here in New York is David Kotok, Cumbled Advisers, Chief investment officer and co found a Good morning to David. Good morning John. It's a pleasure to be here and we back at January. Well, it certainly looks like it you just described it, but remember February follows January, and we'll see what this next two months it's going to bring. In January February, we explored the concept with people like yourself as to whether we were going to go into a new trading regime,

and you market regime of high volatility, lower returns. Is that where we're at? And if we are, why are we going back to a ten on the vix at a record handy SMP five. Well, I remember that discussion here along with a bunch of other folks who had during that period of time and felt the same way. One thing is different now. Trade is now war not even threatened. Rhetoric number two. All the promises that Peter Navarro made there will be no retaliation, there will be

no penalties, everybody's gonna have a negotiation. I think that was March are proven wrong. And every single day we get another anecdote of the effects of trade war and how bad this can be. Ken lang Owned did an interview here yesterday. Yeah, and he's right, he's got well here. I mean he's trade words. We're headed for trouble. All the warnings of history say so. And we now have an administration which is entrenched in this policy and doesn't have a way out. It's trying to do a bilateral

deal with Mexico. Then it's going to try to co opt in Canada when it comes to China. I think this adversary is patient, doesn't have our political issues, has studied us exceptionally well, and is advancing faster than we are. I read about how the rollout at five G in China is light years ahead of the United States, and you say to yourself, if China's gonna have this massive bandwidth and roll out, and we're going to be busy imposing tariffs and getting retalied. They were tariffs on soybeans

and lobsters, what does the matter with us? Okay, the Good Morning I had to find the red button folks on New good Morning. David um, if that's true, what do I do with my investments? I mean you at Ohio last night with a suburban vote radically changed from the GOP traditional alliable. You've got all the Yanks with China. You and John have just voiced. Does it change Cumberland Advisors investment approach? Well, it has, and in that in the US portfolios with et F portfolios, we are now

focused domestically. We are focused on small and mid caps. We are staying away from international exposure which is at risk to trade war. And we have a cash reserve. And in the in the bond side, the treasury is being flattened and suppressed by a tax effect which expires on the fift September. Let's see what the yield curve looks like. Are you gonna make like effort through there when the dog days of August? Are you gonna make your gold this year? A fishing two two days? That's

your record is kind of tough. I'll get a little tired of my arms. So you moved to Florida to do that? I get the idea what you saw in Ohio last night? Is that gonna happen in Florida? Are you gonna have the suburban voters of Florida walk away from the GOP? Mr? Trump? I think that's an interesting question. The congressman in my district where I live in Sarisoda's

Verne Buchanan, I think seven or eight term Republican. He's running ads, walking down the street, holding hands with his granddaughter. He doesn't mention Trump, he doesn't mention Republicans. He is now worried. He's had a reason to be worried. So then how does that affect your I mean, Phararell wants to know this. Farrell, you don't understand John Farrell is sleeping under a park bench in Central Park. If Sterling goes to and he's wiped out, I know, though, so

much for Franzy summer place in Italy. But but what I want to know is does all this mumbo jumbo the John and I talked about every day on politics, does it affect what we do in investment? I think it raises risk profiles. I don't care where the vix goes. It's a contemporaneous indicator. It has no forecast power. Everybody, Well, if there's no distortion in a treasury curve, you would look at the flatness of the curve and you would

say there's a message here. But we now find in this tax code change that the purchases of strips are consuming a great deal of the monthly action of the thirty year bond. And it's because of a tax code change which will expire on September. Anybody who's any corporation has got to define benefit pension plan that's underfunded as huge incentives right now today to buy long strips. They get paid for doing so in a big way. Do you know what I thought got lost in all the

tests the noise yesterday? Tom was Pimco and Dan Iverson possibly one of the most talented portfolio managers on the planet, turning cautious and defensive. This is where the sequent fund. Yeah, Dan is a fantastic PM with a huge track record over the last few years, and he has taken the funds for a more defensive, cautious stance, and he says the following um, the populist parties have already gained traction

across the globe. The major central banks are trying to step away from accommodation they've provided for the markets for many years. Their influence has been quickly replaced by that of politics. His view, the fund's view for both equity and fixed income investors, we think this means of returns and unfortunately higher volatility. Now that might not be the story of the morning, but that's the story they're anticipating.

And you know fixed income really really well, David, So right now, the way that PIMCO would describe it is that you can quite simply expose yourself to two pools of assets. A pall of assets leverage to economic growth here in the United States, more back securities, corporate credit. Then a pool of assets that give you a hedge. Inky, so we get it down to it, highly liquid treasuries, things like treasury bills, et cetera, et cetera. How do you want to balance yourself between those two poles? Of

assets through the duration of the ship. You just described the classic bond manager's barbell. That's what we call it as opposed to a ladder. If you're in a ladder today, you are taking on risk. You think you're reducing risk with the ladder, and you're failing. You're taking on risk with the letter. You need a barbel. Now, how do you do the barbell? Peace? Long, peace, short and in between. You measure the duration of the whole, You measure the yield curve for its sweet spot, and you match it.

Only you match it with a barbell, not linearly or a ladder. That is a lot of technical jargon on like, but but that's how you do it. What are we doing in the barbell? When this curve gets fat like this? You shorten and build one side of the bar bill larger than the other, leans, lodge hard the fish. You're out there with a bunch of people fishing. Yeah, we had fifty folks. We had great conversation, divided views. Of course. You see the shot of me and John Farron. We

went sturgeon fishing this weekend. Your sturgeon went viral? Did go viral? Yes? And we and we decided that the sturgeon is about the size of what we use for bait fish. But Leans close. You're Leans Lodge. We're over Patrosian. It's called vodka. You guys are permanently and invited. You would be ten years if you came up. There's no UK equivalent. It is so far in the middle of nowhere. Did you go by private like one of those planes with the pontoon things on it? You get to the

lake plane you want, You're gonna hold my hand. If I do that, I will. I'll carry your bag. David Kotalk, thank you so much, coming that with a bottle of Carosotic. I'll be out there in the grumming canoe taking dramamine. David Kotalk, humble of advisors. Why don't you bring in our next guest and idiosyncratic em Pabla Goldberg blank Rock, head of a merchant market. Dad, I'm sure, Pablo A. You're gonna tell me some of these issues are idiosyncratic.

But Turkey, Argentina, Brazil, it's sounding gap, isn't it. Well? I think they we need to separate these. I think that there are idiosyncredic vulnerabilities to global factors. If you want to put it like that. I think Argentina and Turkey belong to the same camp. Brazil is a little bit of a different story. Um, what is the trigger to Argentina and Turkey? The trigger is you tighter financial conditions globally. In that sense, it is not indiosy incredic issue.

What it is idiosyncratic is that these two countries have been um, you know, in out of balance for for some time, and now the market has indicated that is time for reckoning. And the difference is that Argentina has bidden the bullet, I mean, has gone to the I m F, has tried to interest rates significantly, is lad in the economy to the adjudgment, but Turkey is not. And that's why now the pressure is on Turkey. Still a wall of silence over the last forty eight hours, Pamp.

What are you expecting to say from the Turkish authorities just in terms of policy response? Well, I think that we're the Turkish authorities are working in three different camps right that The first one is try to um you

know the case they go to gone to Washington. They're trying to deal with this issue of the sanctions, because that's quite important because for a country that has large external funding needs, anything that can affect, you know, the willingness of foreign lenders to roll over that debt would be a complication. And of course the process of sanctions or potential sanctions are the deterrent potentially to a cross border landing. So that's one area of work that they're doing.

The other area of work is are they're gonna is the central band gonna be racing grates who you know, get ahead of the curve. And and and there's where we are not being so much advantced yet. Look, give us a clinic on any nation. In this case Turkey, it has to debt. They have debt in Turkish lira and they have debt in the US dollar. Both are going up and yield priced down, yields dramatically higher on Turkish debt. What does that mean for Turkish finance and

Turkish banks? Let me let me do another cut on top of the one you've done. You you've done the cut by currency. Let me do a cut by borrower. Right there, sovereign dead, basically dead of the government. And there's that of the corporate sector being banks and corporate now financial corporate, where Turkey is heavily in debted, it is in dollars. So that's one part of the quadrant and the other part of the quadram that is the actually corporate sector, the one that is so in that

it's not the government, it is the corporate sector. Um. And the banks are in between, right. The banks are the US who are just bringing dollars from abroad and lending to the guys inside. So where we need to put an eye on is on the corporate sector and the rollovers. Now, if they fail to roll over and they have payment problems, that's kind of eventually knock on the banks. And that's why the banks have been suffering.

Do we see that within whatever is the short term paper market in Turkey is the you know, the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Is it some form of Turkish library or bank commercial paper? Well, I mean if you look at the sort of short term borrowing costs in Turkey, of course they've gone up. We've seen uh, sort of cross currency swaps going up. We have seen spreads of turkeysh banks gone up. So that pressure is

pain felt through a system. Um. The question is, uh, we are the point where women have some failures or not and so far if you look at the data, and now granted that the data has a couple of months lag, but even an eg total and still whatevers are going through. I think investors are worried will they stop right or not? And that's probably where we have not a daily information and that's bring everybody to be

a little apprehensive. So the other thing that I think many people are worried about whether these technical issues just become real fundamental issues paplow when you have short term interest rates this high in countries like Argentina and essentially a response will have to follow in a country like Turkey. Essentially that's going to choke off growth, and that's going to choke off NIX and then the whole thing just sort of ends up in this big loop that it's

very hard to get out of. Pamplow. To what extent were entering that kind of cycle, we you know, you're totally right, and and this is an exercise of adjustment, right and and and the big question when you go into an exercise of adjustment is how to distribute the cost of the adjustment. And this is what we are seeing debated in Turkey today. I mean, in case of Argentina.

It is clear that the fiscal side is doing it adjustment, but also the costumers are doing the adjustment on higher utility, terrests, etcetera. Um the general the corporate sector through lower growth. UH. In Turkey, the question is will the government fight back the necessary adjustment as they did into thousand and seventeen. Remember they did a massive push up in credit into

thousand and seventeen. Turkey grew seven percent when this economy was already heavily dollarly indebted and with a large account deficits. So are they going to try to the fire gravity for longer, which actually stretches the court which you could eventually break or not, or they're gonna buy the bullet and just go through the slower and right now and

trying to distribute the judgment. The banks are in generally solid and they will have good provisions to cover some of the not performing loans that are going to go up as the economy slow down as you indicate it um so, but they usually are you going to do it or you're just gonna fly back and you're gonna make the situation worse. And I think that's where the market is still debating because we're not seeing the right reaction function by the government yet. What how does contagions start?

I mean, if we have all these events here there, if you look back to Ecuador in Mexico two or three times, and we all remember ninety eight, how does contagion happen? We all remember ninety eight very well, unfortunately, and contagion, contagion. The first thing about contagients happened, uh

when you spected in the list. So that's that's one of the problems with contagion, right and uh and and this happens when investors start to pair uh different countries by sort of where they wulnerability lize and and and then you guys start to separate the winners and losers. I think that we have had a little bit of contagion before in emerging markets, kind of when the dollars started to move higher in April and May, we started to see contagion. We saw some contingent from Argentina to

other countries. If anything, you could say that Turkey, you know, having a minded on vulnerabilities, it is a little bit of the effect of the contagion coming from Argentina. But we're not seeing contingent from Turkey to the rest. At this point, um, there's one you know line that is women through some of the countries. That is the issue of sanctions right today to look at the Russian ruble is under pressure on expectations of potential higher sanctions to Russia.

So that is a new access that investors are dealing with that all of a sudden from Washington, that could be something that will impair the liquidity of some of the markets. That will prevent some place to play in significant markets. So that is things that could bring contagients the public Goldberg, thank you. So it's the black Rock folks. This will be out on our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music as well. Public Goldberg just brilliant there on e

M as well, without cyphering its economics. And I want to rip up the script here. Just spend a good amount of time getting a clinic from Dr Weinberg on why we can't clear markets anymore. Carl Weinberg is legendary for his experience with many others and I think of Bill Rhodes a City group over the years in saying to troubled countries, you know what, you made some mistakes. Here's how you work it out, and you usually work

it out, folks, by extending debt. Maybe there's a cram down where somebody takes a loss up front to make all benefit down the road. There's an interest rate workout in other creative adventures as well. Carl, what happened? Why can't we do this anymore? Well, um, we can. Uh. The politics of it have become increasingly difficult, and a lot of countries, even countries that still remain committed to globalism within their own houses, are not willing to commit

domestic resources to international events. And I'm talking specifically about Europe here where Um, while the nations of Europe presumably are united in the Union, where they presumably share common interests in common causes and think of themselves as Europeans rather than Germans, Dutch or Italians, Nonetheless, when countries like Italy, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland get into financial difficulty, the politics are unfavorable to

burden sharing. Is part of this that we've eliminated, for the most part fixed currencies, in that a disciplinarian was the reality of selected fixed currencies which forced the politicians hands well. I think that the recent Europe's not working. Isn't the fixed currencies, it's all the things to support

fixed currencies that have not been implemented. The Europeans, to their credit, have been making big strides recently, right better late than never on things like banking union, on deposit insurance, across borders, on shared risks, on burden sharing, on shared responsibilities, but still have a way to go on fiscal responsibilities, which is what makes it possible for the United States to have a Massachusetts in New York and Arkansas and the West Virginia all within the same nation, in the

same banking system without having to worry about capital flows or currency adjustment. Do you worry? Do you worry about? I guess this new theology of politics trumping all no pun intended with a pacific rim or with idiosyncratic stories like Argentina and Turkey. I mean they don't have the europe excuse, do they? No, they don't, and there we have.

But the same basic thing is there. You know, the domestic um response to any crisis, you know, is to um, you know, blame the foreigner for its shut down on foreign transactions and um, you know, try to clamp down on the parts of the boat that are leaking, which is uh maybe a first instance a good thing, but when the credit flows or across borders, you have to look across the border for cooperation and for a solution. You can't close well well said, and it shows your

experience the phrase cop cooperation and solution. Are we not solving some of these debt workouts because they're really not that big of a crisis. Don't tell that to the Greeks, no, And they certainly are very real to the countries that are involved. And I think the most relevant example right now is Italy, and I think everything that we've experienced recently in Europe and as well in emerging markets, even though Italy is not an emerging market comes to bear

when we think about Italy. We have a crushing public sector debt, we have crushing private sector debt. We have cross border cumulative balance of payments obligations which are hidden in the e CBS a clearing system, the so called target too. And then we have domestic politics where repuviation of relationships and obligations seems to be the populous factor that's winning the votes. So a government that comes in on that kind of vote can't do the right thing

because it undermines its political base. Well, how do you reas on to the idea and this moves on from debt workouts, how do you respond to the idea of Asia that learned their lessons in and they have a bigger piggy bank and all that. How do you respond to that? I mean, is that do you buy the story that they're stealed for crisis? Yeah? I mean you have to respond to that story on seven different levels. Right, First of all, crises have always occurred. They're never going

to stop occurring. Their part of the human condition, all right, that things get hot, they overheat, and then somebody has to pay for it. So you're never going to eliminate crisis, no matter how smart or sophisticated you are. But the real story that I think you allude to, which is the important one, which is that the growth in the world, the economic growth, the population in the world, the money in the world, the investment of the world, the future

of the world is now pivoted towards Asia. And Asia is the new place where the action is for investors, both for its rewards and for its risks. Because, as we know, for us to have the investor risks can breed opportunities. Carl Weinberg, thank you so much, greatly appreciate it. This morning, Carl Weinberg with my frequency economics with a little more thoughtful time constrained, uh idea from what we see in the heat and all that, Fim Fox and

Tom Keenan. Now I really enjoyed Gina smiling with us the Blueberg Economics and Bloomberg News, and she's written up a bang up story about one of the major trends. And you know, just to set this up for you, Villain Bowder turned to me one day and he said, Tom, this is secret and you can't say publicly, but we

have hired Catherine Man. And I felt so wonderful to see Kathy Man out of brand Ice, who went to O. E. C. D. With one of the giant books on trade and one of the real theories of dysfunction China in the U s to to leave the shop at City Group, tell us what you learned about women as chief economists. So women are increasingly becoming private sector chief economists, which is a big deal because this his for a long time.

Just spend one of those ceilings that women have a lot have had a lot of trouble cracking, and so we're seeing Kathy Man at City Group, michelmar Cusin, and

Marian Stanley. Yeah, just across that, really across the globe, we're seeing these women get these great, big jobs Janet Henry at HSBC and so one of the things that's really interesting is the women who are getting elevated now they have these stellar resumes, they just have amazing histories and economics, and they're really helping to elevate women sort of behind them as well. They're sort of pulling women

up the career ladder. So I think that is a positive sign for sort of gender equity in this field. There sounds like there's a negative here too. There's like a butt there's a big but, and that is that

there's a pipeline issue in economics. You know. I feel like, you know, it's great to say we should hire women, we should strive for gender equity, but the reality is that there aren't as many women going into this field, and if you just don't have the folks with the qualifications, it's going to be hard to get near anything like a quality. It's it's not even a reasonable goal to

ask banks or central banks to achieve. At this point, you describe in your story a conversation that has had between head hunters and one particular economists, one of if you could just describe that. So I absolutely loved this anecdote. So my my colleague Lucy Meekin in the UK talked to Janet Henry and Janet was telling her that she often gets this call from head hunters and they want to hire women, or they want to hire economists, and they say, you know, do you know anybody? Do you

know anyone would be good? And she's like, well, I'm not interested, but here's a list. She'll give them a list and then they'll say, but do you know any women? And she just finds this happening again and again. And I heard the same thing when I talked to Mary Daley, who is senior vice president for research at San Francisco. Fat can we roop up the script? Ms? Smile like Folks is one of my former interns, and wandered through

the door. Brilliant tell us your experienced, Gina of just what you described about economists, which is everybody's looking for bright women. You came out of what was the school. It was a small school, in the South Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill. Excuse me, it's Chapel Hill, not U n C Called Chapel Hill. Anyways, you came out and how did you get I mean the rap here is women don't take micro women don't do econometrics Bologney because you

did it. So what was it like for you being in the trenches like Janet Andrey getting as smart as you are? Yeah, you know so, I actually feel like my experience is really emblematic of what we can You know. So, I came from a small town, working class family in Pennsylvania, and when I went to school, I never would have occurred to me to study economics. I didn't think that

was a thing girls did. And so I study journalism and I had a couple of really good professors who really pushed me to look into economics, to look into accounting. And then Tom Cantiliano, who runs the Bloomberg's internship program. Tom Cantiliano really did me a solid and forcing me

to take accounting. Um, and I think those things. And then obviously Tom, working with you when I was an intern, you sort of forced me to read a book every week about economic I would yell, just read a book and you know, like some of the great interns we've had, and I heard I heard the voice Colby Smith would

have been the same thing. Yeah, And so I think I think that is consistent with what we heard and reporting this story, which is women sort of you know, often don't think of this as a field that is open to them, but then mentors get them into it and sort of pull them up the ladder. And I think that that is what we see happening now. I

was gonna say, maybe they're just smarter. I don't know if that's true, but I do think there's this intes saying sort of untapped aptitude for economics um that women can bring to the table, but that maybe isn't introduced to them at early levels like high school or even

early college. But it doesn't not have to do with the notion that and I've heard this, so I can't really there's no documentation where men really operate because they want to be right, they themselves want to be right, whereas women are more interested in finding the correct solution and it's not about them. So that is a really interesting observation, only in the sense that it's actually really squares with something. One of the women I was talking

to set for the story. So she Tatyana Avalova at the Columbia University runs undergraduate Women in Economics and the whole point of this program is to encourage folks to study economics from from a younger age. And one thing she says is we see women going into micro going into applied and the reason is when you talk to them, they can see the outcomes immediately. They like to see

that effect. Yeah, major shout out there to Susan Ah, the first woman to win the John Bates Clark Award, and we are honor Bloomberg to do the first interview with her. Then can we shout out another woman in economics who I'm sure I'm forgetting many We have to mention Julia Cornado of BMP Perry but when she was named head of North American Economics or BMP Parry. But that was a huge deal, huge deal at the French bank that would do that. Ginna, this is the most

important article to day. Thank you. So what are you reading right now? I was just telling you I'm reading a Nissim telebs foo by randomness again for one of my classes at n y Uh. Do we agree she needs to get a life? Yeah? Okay, Gina smile like Bloomberg News. I'm Bloomberg Economics. Tom Keane, do you know how you can go from growing up on a farm in Iowa to running Bowing? You need to go to Iowa State University. Yeah. That helps the crack Aerospace program

you do. And you know, one of the ways we're going to learn all about this is with David Rubinstein and the David Rubinstein Peer to peer Preview. It's brought to you by Wells Fargo Technology Banking. Wells Fargo helps business leaders find their moments of truth. A little outside perspective can create a lot of clarity. And here with his perspective is David Rubinstein. David, what was it like interviewing the chief executive of Bowing? Did he explain how he went from that farm to uh to be the

head of Bowing? To grow up on a farm and milk the cows as you would expect in Iowa, and then he got an internship at boeing Um one summer and then ultimately got a job there when he graduated from college. He's been at the company thirty three years, but he's only fifties are years old. Amazingly, he is able to increase the value of a company quite considerably in three years. The stock is up about a hundred

and forty nine since he's been the CEO. But the amazing part is not only that he's done that, but he rides about a hundred and fifty miles a week on his bike, about two hours a day. He's relentless, and uh, you know, when you interview him, you realize you might be able to overweight yourself because when you look at him, he is so thin. He's in great shape. But he says that riding a bike two hours a day clears his mind, and obviously it must work. So

I begun to think maybe I should try that. Well, it maybe would help everybody when they get on those Boeing aircraft because the airlines have been cramming more and more seats into those fuselages. What does he say about the future of air traveler, We're gonna have to spend so much time in the air Well, only the people in the face of the earth have ever been on the airline. It's hard to believe because the people we

know are flying all the time. But only and other people on the face of the earth have ever been on an airplane. So he's got a big market. His biggest challenge, I think is that he's got a friend of me, you might say, in China. He sells a lot to China, but ultimately China probably will build its own business in the aircraft area. Right now, it's been largely a duopoly for the last years or so, which is to say Airbus in Europe and and and Boeing

in the United States. In terms of major airline aircraft. Obviously there there planes that are made made by others for smaller regional things or for um business jets, but those are the two dominant airlines aircraft companies, and I suspect China will ultimately become a major one as well. David, this guy is maybe more qualified than anyone from the Midwest. The fabric of Iowa in Iowa State, on the University of Washington and bowing to explain to the President United States,

how is trade policy? Obviously affects defense in commercial Boeing, but Frank, he affects everything else as well. Did he discuss the president in our new tariff tax policy? Well, he has met with the President from time to time, and I think he's been supportive of the President's tax proposal, and Boeing was a big proponent of the tax cut. Obviously,

the tariffs are a different matter. He didn't say what he said specifically to the President on a particular tariff, but there's no doubt that he doesn't think this is probably a great way to proceed. Um But he's not a person who tries to seek a lot of public attention for his views. He does operate very much in the background in some respects, but he's a very charming person. He's very um focused on philanthropy. Boeling has dramatically increased

philanthropy under his leadership. But again, he's very very much on top of the job. He worked his way up through the defense part of the business, now runs everything. What's his style of Ellen Moleley Aerospace out of Kansas, Kansas State. Rather, we had a style one ford and all that. If you told me he was running a agribusiness company, I wouldn't be shocked because he does have a farmer kind of mindset in the sense that he's he's very modest, unassuming, uh not louduh and and just

goes ahead and does what he thinks is right. And uh salute solitude is something that's important to my guess because he rides a bike so much. UM, I just don't know how he can do it, but he obviously does. A stock has done extremely well in the company is not extremely well, David. These are delicate matters, but on this historic day, we must ask you first of all about if you, Carlisle, have any relationships with Tesla. We

don't want to step on those. But it's an absolutely original morning, David, in my career to see the headlines come across, I am familiar with it, but you do not have a relationship with the company. I saw it. I think it would be an incredible buy out. At seventy billion dollars or so, that would be the largest buyout ever done pure bio. But we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. But there has to be a relationship with owning principal entrepreneur if you will, and his board.

How would you advise the board and a proper action given all the transactions across the David Rubinstein career. While the board obviously has to retain UM an independent um set of advisors, because if the CEO of a publicly traded company is leading a bio, you have some potential conflicts. So you'd have to make certain that there's no other offer that would come along from somebody other than the CEO,

and the CEO is going to lead it. The board would have to make certain that everything is done fairly so that it's not to the advantage just of the CEO. David Rubinstein as someone that has an extensive list of experience with companies going public, going private, and the operations of aarious companies. If one of your portfolio companies c e O s who maybe had a fifth of a company, came out with a Twitter tweet about a potential UH buy out at a specific price during market hours, what

would be your first call? It would be unusual to think that that would happen. I haven't had that experience. Carlisle's had hundreds of companies have owned if we've never seen something like that, But you know, Mr Musk is an unusual person. He's done some things that people didn't think could be done before, including creating Tesla for nothing and right. But what would you do well? I would

handle it in a way that would be private. I probably wouldn't publicly say what I would do, fair enough, David Rubinstein, thank you so much for those Thank you, Tesla, and of course David Rubinstein peered up here tonight at five pm and ten pm at Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keene before the podcast. You

can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio