Surveillance: Risks Report With AXA's Buberl

group of actually quantifying risk. Thomas, I've got to say congratulations on the acuity of your study. You go out and speak to thousands of people, explain why this study is different from last year or the others of the thousands you talked to. Thanks Tommy. I'll be doing this study now for the eight ya. The extra futurisquit pol And what's important for us is to understand how risks are perceived, but also how we can map them out and what you can see that obviously the hierarchy of

risks is changing over the time. Well, last year, obviously pandemic was the number one risk. We are now seeing that climate is back at the top. So it's for us very important to understand what are the key risks and also how can they be solved. Walk me through the key risk right now, then tell us frame the

climate debate for us from a company perspective. People worried about climate change change in their business, or they're worried about stakeholders turning them back on their business because they're not worried enough about climate change. I would say all of the above the issues today that we have a very very many evidences around us that climate change does

matter to us, just change our life. I think when you look at COVID nineteen, this could also well be connected to climate change, and the issue is really what can we do about it? How can we change it? We see that in the political arena there is a strong desire now on the legislative front to really um uh push the transition, and so companies, investors and insure

US will have to align. And we've been very early on in this game making sure that on the investment side, but also on the underwriting side, we are going in the direction of helping society, helping the companies to really make this climate change happen, because it is the top risk, not only in the general public, but certainly also for the young people that for the first time we actually put a specific focus on in that eighth edition, keeping

some numbers on that for the underwriting business specifically, Thomas, how if you changed how you do business? So essentially we are looking at firstly, how can we make sure that we are avoiding uh companies risks that are clearly

pulled us. If you take the coal industry, it was in two thousand fifteen that dacts are decided to exit call on the investment side, and we've also followed the same lot on the underwriting side, making sure that we are redeploying that investment and capacity in green in the green area. However, this is not enough if you look the meat of the transition and the key area is really how to help industrial companies to move from a mix that is not sustainable to something that is more sustainable.

And this transition area, helping to invest in companies that have a very clear and credible transition plan and also doing the same on the underwriting side is the journey by going now, Thomas, is your have to in dealing with this issue as a company more on the insurance side or more on the underwriting side more on the investing side. It is on both sides, but I do believe Lisa that on the insurance side it is even

more powerful. On the investment side, we are one of many investors, and if you want to find funds for a call factory today, you will. However, on the insurance side, if you don't have an insurance, you will not find

any investment. And we have launched recent lee the net Zero Insurance Alliance, which is an alliance of eight insurers under the lead of AKSA to make sure that we get the largest insurer commercial insurers together to make sure that these risks are not underwritten anymore, and that we are really helping focusing our insurance on the companies that

are in transition. So has this been effective? Have you seen those companies that will not get insurance from the big companies actually struggle or or actually shift their businesses in response. So on the on the question around avoiding coal, we've clearly seen it, and I've personally been involved in quite a few customer conversations as you can mention, this is not easy, but if we don't go this way, we will not make that transition happening. So on the

coal side, it has already happened. The transition side is currently in the making, and we are now putting the coalition together to also act on this level. It's almost

from the coal side just quickly. If you made the decision that you don't think those companies should be insure, if you make the decision that you can't put a price on the insurance, no, we believe these companies should not be insured because somebody who does not contribute to the transition of our climate, it's not somebody that we would like to invest in, because we obviously see the negative effects on this. On the other side, we are also a large health insurance so when you look at

climate related health issues, they have arisen a lot. So for us, it makes absolute sense to be true to ourselves. How can we avoid these risks on the insurance side to also make sure that we have a better experience for our patients. Fascinating position to put yourself in, Tho Thomas, to decide which companies should or should not fail, which companies deserve insurance, and which companies don't. Does it start an end with climate change? Lets this's go somewhere else. Look,

I mean you also have other areas. If you think about again health related issues, you have got the question around tobacco, and so for example, in areas where we clearly see that there is a direct link between an industrial activity and negative consequences for health. So, for example, on tobacco, as of the first cigarette, you have a negative effect. We've also taken the decision in two thousand

and sixteen to exit this and to redeploy our investment. Means, um this needs to continue, but it needs to continue in a way that we are accompanying our customers, that we are accompanying the companies we invest in to make sure that we help this transition and we don't penalize. Interesting, some people might think that's controversial. That's a conversation for another day. Thomas just quickly someday Man City Liverpool, can

we get a prediction sir? It is clearly that Liverpool will be winning, and because they are so well positioned, it would not underwrite the insurance of Man City. Tom, I think is the message you're trying to He just took undone as an insure. If you can make that decision as well, which team succeeds and fails. Thomas Bobo there. Thank you, sir, access CEO. Right now we're gonna shift to the equity market with someone who does observe the yield space as he gauges his bullish view and equities.

Benjamin Laidler is the Global Markets their strategist and he joins us this morning to reaffirm on equities. Ben Laidler, you talk about the priors of yield, you talk about the other moments where we've seen yield surge, and you do say this time is different. I think the speed has been different markets. I think I'm reacting to the speed of the body yield move you know, not necessarily to the level twenty basis points in a week if

you extract like that. This is the basically the biggest move that we've almost ever had, even more than we had in in first quarter, which is you know, close to record itself. Um. Yeah, Having said that, you know, I think we've sort of seen this movie before. Right first quarter we had the you know, nearly a hundred

basis point moving yields. Over the quarter, we saw a lot of movements, you know, to your point under the surface, there was a lot of sort of sector rotation, but you know, the opal market came up six percent, and that wasn't as similar to what we saw on the table tantram back in which is the best year of the decade for for equities. So you know, I think the markets sending us some messages here. I think it means a lot more per sectors than it was to

the market. And I think this sort of pain is is going to be temporary as um sort of market um as the sort of reprice this a little bit. But I think that's sort of bulld case of you know, fed forbearance and the strong earnings of probably remained in place.

Have we had enough of a draw down, a pull back where it shifts the use of cash game for corporations um, And we've had, I mean the story for this year, but it has really just been the lack of volatility, right, I mean, we've had this huge rally, who had one sort of fighter sent pull back this year are than the three we've normally had. So you know,

the VIX remains sort of very low. I mean, you know, back in the first quarter of VIX peaked at thirty seven, So you know, you can make the case for we might get more volatility, especially with everything that's coming out of d C and and everything that's coming out of China. So you know, I think the outlook is one for probably more a bit more volatility in the short term.

But I think you've been set up for, you know, for a sentence Santa rally into the end of the year as we sort of clear this sort of DC in China noise, as the sort of growth bear subside in virus cases in the US down thy percent in two weeks, and I think that sets us up for um, you know, growth recovery into the quarter. With the quarter earnings coming up in two weeks, which I think is going to be you know, expectations look very low, so I think we've been set up for another earnings beat.

And I think the policy support remains Marion is very strong. Whether yields are one and a half percent on the ten year or two that there are a fraction of where they were coming out of priory sessions, and I think that gives you a lot of supports evaluation. And then you've touched on something important. I think a lot of people are waking up this morning looking at some of those popular holdings, the likes of Microsoft, Apple, Amazon,

they're downheart since the start of September. That dream what to do in the face of rising yields been. I know you can't do single names, but for those big stories that sector, what do you suggest they should do? The story? So first quarter, which is our nearest parallel, I think here, you know, na's that kind of terms stample back and then it then it fairly quickly recovered. And the difference of now versus then is, you know, I think the yield move then was was much more significant,

and it was sort of first time out. I think, you know this time around UM and I think you know what we saw then was yes, you know, higher bond yields, you know, hit stocks with higher valuations and these sort of long duration cash flows, which is Tech. But then very quickly I think we just get reminded UM and I think we'll see this in the third quarter of just you know how strong the earnings power of these companies are on the fortress balance sheets that

they have UM. So I wouldn't expect tech to necessarily lead from here in a rising yield environment. I think that's going to be commodities, financials, and value, but I certainly see them going up Lisa, this is a big chunk of market cam Microsoft seven percent from the middle of sep Tember. Apple down nine plus nine plus since the start of September, the first week of September. They

are big moves. And the interesting thing is that they're big moves despite what Bernar is talking about here, the idea that revenues are tremendous. But at what point it can big tech tech start moving in lark step with bond yields. I don't think this is all about bond yields.

I think that's an important ingredient. It was all about bond yields, then you know, if you look at the macro level, places like Japan and Europe where bond yields are you know, dramatically lower, would have done a lot better and be trading a lot more expensive than than you know they are right now. UM. You know what the value sectors and this recovery and growth potentially sets us up for is you know, those sectors which are most exposed to that growth and those spectors which are

least exposed to higher bond yields. I'd have the lowest valuations, will do you know, will do better? Um, And and that is commodities and financials, and and tech which doesn't have those two things, which has less sensitivity to this growth rebound, which I think we should be talking more about now that virus cases are coming down, um and um, you know, more sensitivity to sort of high on yours well will naturally lag. But I don't think you can

say that they're going to do particularly badly. I mean, evaluations have actually come down quite a lot for big tech. And the surprise of this year is that those very strong growth rates which you saw last year having maybe come down as quickly as some as many thought they would do. Then the story of this week is the reflation trade has changed. It is a renew reflation trade.

If you take a look at which sectors are doing the best, you're looking at energy, You're looking at financials with the prospect of perhaps maybe uh seeper yield curve. It's not industrials, it's not materials. It's not consumer discretionaries that have to absorb some of these higher gas prices and supply chain constraint issues. Does this mean something to you in terms of what the reflation trade will look like over the next six months. Yeah, I think it's

going to be much more specific. I mean there are there are. I mean I think one more sort of a tune to some of these supply Chaine shooes them we worked for. We obviously have a bunch of concerns on sort of Chinese growth out there, which obviously feeds through tectifly materials which maybe we didn't have we didn't have last time. I would also just say, um, I think we'll maybe right at the beginning of re engaging in this sort of reflation trade. I mean, inflation expectations

are really barely budge market inflation expectation. I mean five year, five year is still you know, two twenty three, ten years to thirty eight. I mean they really haven't moved, you know very much. Um, you know this perceived fed you know, hawkishness. I mean they basically moved the dots in line with where the market already was look last week. So I think, um, I think we're really the beginning

of that, rather than having had a big move already. John, let's review the statistics of the greatest equity car coming out of the urgency of two thousand eighteen. Late two thousand eighteen, Laidler up, sp X UP eighteen percent. The next year up fifteen percent. John's so far this year that's a lonely group. I remember it, Tom, I remember it well, Ben Laidler, Can we ever repeat when everybody starts freaking out about the removal of accommodation and this

equity market flies. I remember that year. Most people do what they forget sometimes because the treasury move is so burnt in the memory, but they forget sometimes just that the equity market was up almost thrty percent on S and P five hundred. Ben, how different are things this time around? I think we've already had a lot of this, right, I mean again, we've got stress tested. In the first quarter, we had this huge move in treasury yields and equities

are up six percent. You know, equities up, you know, gotting on for no well until a few days ago, we were up for the year already. This was you know, this is a big, big move for equities. As I say, I mean, we've got some balls early to get through, whether it's coming out of the bond market, coming out of DCD, coming out of China over the next sort a month or so. But but again, I think we're being set up for you know, this sort of Santa

rally into year end. As those concerns sort of fall away, we refocus on the growth pace, which I think is sort of the stealth catch up just about to re accelerate. All this week economic data you've been we've been seeing over the last you know, few weeks, all backward looking like it was all when US virus cases global virus

cases were higher than than they are right now. And again, I think policies, the policy's support remains in place the order a fraction of where they were coming out of previous recessions, and that just means that evaluations are going to stay high. Ben Laidler still constructive of ETA Global market strategists. Can we see a transatlantic linkage here? Any whisper of that is what I would listen for joining

us now on this als RBC Global head of Effect Strategy. Also, we've got to talk a lot about what's happening with this dollar, a real break out in the past twenty four hours. Let me start with this one, though his chair power dangerous man from your perspective, I think you summed it up well when you said Senator Warren was looking for people like you to bite the bait, and you did look also at the dollar strength. You are truly expert. It's summing it all together, particularly with a

continental europe perspective. What is the character of this dollar strength. That's a really interesting question, Tom, because I think what was so unusual about yesterday was the bond and equity joints seller. So you know, we're used to being in an environment where either bonds are rallying and equities are

selling off, or vice versa. But when bonds and equities are selling off together, historically, that actually means a very positive environment for the U s dollar, even against what you typically think of as a safe haven like the Swiss frant. Well, let's get back to Lignos one oh one. Is this gonna be about relative interest rates or is it gonna be about flows of capital? You know, both

clearly matter. When when we think about capital flows, We've done a lot of work in the past looking at how much money European investors have piled into US equities and I was actually just updated in this chance last night, and you can see that's increased over the past year. So if we do go into an environment where US equities were on to perform in relative terms, that would

potentially create some downside risk for the dollar. If this is a global risk of environment, though, or if it's a global exty bond seller, that's a far better environment for the US dollar. So the capital flows, like you say, are really key. What's the pain trade right now? Elsa the dollar getting a lot stronger or the dollar materially weakening. Honestly, I think you know, people are relatively likely positioned in etfects. Probably the biggest pain trade would be a massive increase

in volatility. Nobody is looking for that now. You know, We've seen people try to position for that before and it's spailed every time. And so in this environment where we just don't really expect anything to happen. What about the euro weakness that we've seen, the euro a weakening to some of the weaker levels that we've seen in about a year. Is this the story or is it more a dollar story. It's definitely more of a dollar story.

I'm really excited to see it happened, because that's been our core law year and it was a pretty lonely place to be in January. But it's certainly a broader US dollar move. It's nothing specific to the ear. In fact, if you look at the Euro against how yesterday, it was actually a relative out performance. Let's get to that sterling story. So if we can bring up sterling into day we came very really, really really close to break in one thirty five. We've had a hawkish tilt from

the Bank of England. It's failed to anchor sterling. You've got a short on here else, sir? What's going on? Yeah, like you said, we've got a short sterling card recommendation at the moment. We put it on at the start of the week. It's really looking at the upcoming event risk in the week ahead. I think what's happening at the moment. We had a lot of questions on sterling yesterday from clients. People were wondering, is this the Bank of England making a policy mistake? Are we beginning to

price credit risk for the UK? You know, it's very unusual to see yields going higher and the currency going lower. That's typically more what we see an emerging market. I wouldn't try and read too much into the price action of a single day, but I do think that the Bank of England is very optimistically priced in my view, and we should think a bit more as a best case scenario in terms of how many hikes we could get,

rather than a central scenario. So that's really important. You pushed back against this idea that we'll have this rate path kick in at the Bank Amingland anytime soon? Why is that ours? But it's not so much that that will won't get hikes at all. It's more that I think people are factoring in too many hikes, and the Back of England have been fairly clear with us and saying, you know, we'll hike a couple of times and then

we'll pause. And alongside of that you have all sorts of supply chain disruptions at the moment here in the UK which are creating some inflationary prescious but not the type that central Bank would typically respond to. Governor Bailey was very clear on that on Monday, and I don't think people have necessarily listened to that message and factored

it into the way they're trading. Sterling's really really important comments there at the end, ABC Global head of Fax Strategy, this is a joy in exceptionally well timed Inmbassador Hormance joins US now Rabbit Hormanes with time and advisers. They're managing director, but far more. I needed to finish a book strong a million years ago and I finished with Robert Hormats talking about expectingly unexpected on Asia, and we are thrilled Ambassador Hormats could join us this morning on

the new unexpected of China. Robert Hormats with President g what should we expect? Well, I think we can expect a strongly nationalistic China. Uh. He wants to have China come back from two centuries where he considered that the West had taken advantage of China. China was fragmented internally. Now he's trying to pull it together under very strong

party leadership and exercise enormous international influence. And he sees that the US is a tentative in some areas and has raised a lot of doubts among allies, although it's trying to put those doubts to aside at the moan and strengthen itself. But he sees as a chance for China to strengthen his position and eat Asia and other parts of the world, and he is going to take advantage of it. And the party is having its anniversary

coming up. The Family of the Republic of the Republic of China in um in about twenty years, and he wants China to the world leader with a new leader in Japan today, Ambassador harmats the Okinawa's the islands of Jima and the rest that we remember from World War Two, they stretched down some hundred and thirty four miles from Taiwan. Japan has a vested southern interest in Taiwan. How should

the US adapt to the calculus of Beijing, Taipei in Tokyo. Well, certainly China is interested in increasing its influence throughout the entire Western Pacific, and the small islands are the starting point. I don't think taking on Chaiwan is while a goal of China's, is probably not something that Chinese are going to do anytime soon. I think it would be a

very disruptive factor in the region. But it certainly is going to exert its influence all around Asia, and certainly it's increasing its naval presence not only in East Asia, but in Southeast Asia and in the Indian Ocean and other parts of the world. So I think China will be restrained on Taiwan, but certainly will be exercising its

naval influence throughout the entire region. Bob, it seems like there's been a material shift or at least a tightening in the screws over and tied up Isaianping and the entire party. And it seems like there's been a shift in the regulations in terms of how hard they're willing to crack down on certain sectors. And yet when we speak with corporate exactatives, they are so delicate about this. They say, we're not going to change our strategy where

we still see a lot of opportunity. As somebody who has operated on all sides of this debate, how do you think that corporate executives from the United States are viewing what's going on in China with relation to their presence there. Well, it's very interesting. I've spent a lot of time over the years of President she when he was head of Joan Province and then when he was vice president, and he he does want foreign investment in China and has been advocating that for a substantial period

of time. On the other hand, he has a couple of goals, one of which is to have much stronger party control over the Chinese economy. Uh and he's exerting it now primarily with big Chinese companies, where in virtually every company there is a Communist Party committee at very high levels in the company, and it is very employing

chill in the decisions that the companies make. The second thing he wants is much tighter regulation because he sees what he calls something he calls it the three red lines. He sees a lot of leveraging going on, particularly in the real estate area, and we'll probably talk about that in a moment, and he wants a much tougher regulatory

environment for borrowed cricketing real estate. And third, he wants a greater degree of equity in the system than the notion that some companies and some people do very well and others don't. Is important to the to the Communist Party's control over the economy, demonstrating that it's dealing with middle and lower income people and not just with a

higher end people. Investador Ormance, I really have to go back to what you said originally, the jumping still very much wants foreign investment, and yet the message that's being sent to the bondholders of evergrand the dollar bondholders is very different. How do you dovetail the actions that they're taking with international investors with this case, with that drive

for more international investment. Well, in this particular case, most of the bonds and are and most of the exposure is Chinese plus um of the money is owed to either Chinese bond holders in our rem and b UM or two suppliers in China, and therefore the the impact on the rest of the world is not directly going to be that great. Um And I think that a lot of warnings have already gone out that this is going something is going to happen. I think they want

to have an orderly restructuring. The bigger problem really is not so much the foreigners here, although it's gotten a lot of press, but it is the localities. This company has UH projects in UH two hundred venues in China in every province, and in many cases a lot of people have bought apartments or homes on the basis that they'll be built next year the year after that, but they put their money down. If this company goes under, then a lot of those people will find themselves out

of a lot of money. So I think they're worried more about the social instability in China than than they are about foreigners. I don't think foreigners, other than perhaps psychologically, are going to take a very big hit here. But I think he's also going to make the point that the longer run here will be a much better regulated Chinese financial market, particularly in real estate real estates about

of the Chinese economy. If for the real estate market tanks, it will slow down the overall economy and hurt foreign invest there's in China and Chinese companies. So I think he's feeling that if he can regulate the economy in a in a responsible way, in a curious sense, the prospect of a bubble will diminish and the stability of the Chinese economy over the medium term will will increase. So I think that's the message that he's providing. But also don't forget a lot of companies are still doing

well in China. A lot of American companies still see this as the world's fastest growing market, which it is, and they don't want to do anything to upset the apple class as long as the authorities letting them do well. Bubb And I guess that's the issue coming forward from his valuable insight. As always Bob holmats there, Robert holmats without question. David Rubinstein's most important interview for the nation with Stephen Bryan. Were thrilled to Mr Rubinstein could join

us right now, nine pm tonight. Uh, we'll see that. I'm Bloomberg Television. What a wonderful moment, David Rubinstein. What was the surprise of your conversation at the ninety second wife. Well, he doesn't seem to be that upset when people ask him anymore about when he's gonna retire. I mean, he's used to the question by now. I would get tired of it because he gets asked all the time. But he's basically, uh, you know, used to saying I'll make

a decision when I'm ready to make the decision. And uh, he didn't really indicate to me when he's gonna do it. I had my own views on what he's likely to do it, but he didn't say specifically when he's going to retire. But I would suspect it's probably closer to uh, this term than the next term. Maybe, My guests, David Rubinstein, you've been a student of the court. How liberal is Bryan? Well,

he's clearly in the liberal wing. And I would think people would say he's now the dean of the liberal wing. He's been on the court but twenty eight years UM, and I would say probably he and UH Justice Soda Mayor and Justice Kagan are the liberal wings such as it is left UH at this point. So I would say he's He wouldn't consider himself liberal, but I would say others would probably say that's the appropriate the description

of him. But a very impressive person. I've known him since I worked on Capitol Hill about forty years ago, and he's a very very smart person. And he didn't necessarily think he was going to be a justice in the Supreme Court. In fact, when he went for the first interview, he didn't do that well because he had a bike accident, was not doing very well in the interview with Bill Clinton. He later got the position after Ruth Bader Ginsburg got the first appointment by Bill Clinton.

David the fact that he gets asked all the time when he's going to retire, Given that the eighty three highlights the deeply politicized nature of all of these appointments and some of the machinations behind what happened with Ruth Bader Ginsburg, how much do you think this reflects, in his view, a more politicized court than ever before. Well, he wrote a book and that was the subject of

the interview. He's been out giving interviews recently because he has a book out that talks about the fact that justices are not political. They don't talk about politics, and it's a not something they ever consider. However, outside the court, we've obviously politicized the confirmation process and most people see certain decisions like Bush frie Gore as political. Uh, he doesn't agree with that, but there's no doubt that today I think the court has seen is more political than

than it was before. And that's something he's not happy about, but it's not much he can really do about it. And at least so what's so important here, growing up with Jerry Brown and Lawrence Tribe and the rest that Brier did is the heritage of the country. You're expert on this, working you know it's Chicago and studying in

the milia of Richard Posner and all. Well, the idea here of constitutional law being increasingly politicized as you have this core of six justices right now deeply in the conservative wing and definitely voting as as a pack when it comes to certain things like abortion rights at least so far, uh and and and all of these more

politicized issues. There's a deeper issue, though, David, and as an investor, you have deep respect for trying to game out how Washington acts and your experience on Capitol Hill. Has there ever been more of a sense of unpassable gridlock at a time when even the parties are divided to such a degree. I've not seen anything like this in the last hundred years. Anything I've read about ever

in the last hundred years. Obviously during the Civil War was like this, But now we don't have any sense that cooperating is a good thing, and bipartisanship is just out the window. You can't even get a bipartisan vote to pass the debt limit, for example, anymore. So I'm saddened by it. I think most people are as well. The Supreme Court is trying to avoid being seen as political, but I think many people still see it as somewhat political. Unfortunately, that, David,

is the grace of the Court gone. When you look at the clerk system, the cadence of top students becoming clerks, with all that competition and then going on to different appointments and judges. Is the grace still there in our judiciary. Well, it's still a great honor. Each Justice gets four clerks and it's a big honor to be one of those clerks. I should point out that my law school this year has nine clerks, which is the most they've ever had,

and so we're very pleased with that. But these are the leading students in the country and many of them do become Justice of the Supreme Court themselves. Justice Brier was a clerk for Justice Goldberg, so many of these people do come back. And Justice Roberts was a clerk as well in the court. So you've seen many of these justices coming back having been clerks in the court before.

These are very very smart people, UM. And I do want to point out that the Court, while it's seen us some political by by by many people, UM, is still probably the most respected of the three branches of government. And I think it increasingly people say, well, what the court says is that's the law of the land. In other countries, uh, it's not necessarily the case. And when the when their top court says something, people obey it.

But here, when people say the Supreme Court says something, even it's five to four, we do recognize that's the law of the land, and the rule of law is very important to this country. So I do think the Court, while it's unfortunately seen its political for reasons beyond its control, is still more respected honestly than the executive branch or the legislative branch. To that point, David, aside from the big polemics of the day, how much consensus is there

on the court? Basically, how many cases do we see that are eight to one or even unanimous? Uh? That that really go to the heart of of how we rule here in the United States. UM. A few years ago, the Court used to do twenty cases or so a year. Now they're down to about seventy five case of the year for lots of technical reasons. I would say probably half of them are unanimous. They don't get any attention, but they're relatively on exciting bankruptcy cases or other kinds

of things. Uh. The cases that are five to four probably about I would say about the cases or five to four or the equivalent of five to four, So that that that's when you get most the attention. And then Obviously there's only things like abortion, or redistricting or or voting rights or things like that, but on most cases they're generally fairly straightforward in terms of the law. In most cases honestly are or if not unanimous, close

to being unanimous. David, congratulations on this interview. Did the Rubinstein host apear to your conversations with Justice prior? Look for that tonight nine pm. Of course with the Carlisle Group as well. This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us live weekdays from seven to ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio and on Bloomberg Television each day from six to nine am for insight from the

best in economics, finance, investment, and international relations. And subscribe to the Surveillance podcast on Apple, podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot com, and of course on the terminal. I'm Tom Keene and this is Bloomberg