Surveillance: Recovery Trade With Abby Joseph Cohen

On Women's International International Women's Day, It's very important that we speak and get the current thoughts of Abbe Joseph Cohen of Goldman Sachs advisory director and their senior investment strategist. Abby, you have seen this too many times before, the angst of the ambiguity up we go almost the fear of economic and GDP success. How do equities react when you get a surge in g d P as we anticipate. Well, Tom, first of all, thank you very much for including me

today in the discussion. Uh. It is an important day in an important week for women. Um. You are asking exactly the right question about the markets uh. And that is this um is it good news or bad news for the economy to be recovering, And I would say it is good news. Now. We are seeing, of course,

this very significant rotation in terms of views. Those stocks that have performed extremely well only because interest rates were down uh and low may have a problem, but there are plenty of other opportunities in the equity market as we do see a rotation towards those stocks that do better when we feel work comfortable with the pace of economic recovery and hopefully over the next couple of years

true economic expansion. UH. These of course include the small cap names, also the value names where there's been this wide gap in things like pe ratios and so on. We're also seeing an improvement in stocks that are great sensitive. There are some security some companies that do better when interest rates are a little bit higher, and we of course are seeing some movement now in those seens that do better when we come out of lockdown. And the good news on the vaccine UH will I think be helpful.

And of course those areas include things like restaurants and accommodation. I mean, I'm not going to mince words. Goldman Sachs has been out front on a bull call. Constant has led the way to sp xtree. What does the gloom

crew get wrong? Well, the the argument behind this really great outlook from from David is also based upon the above consensus for you from Jon hot Sis, our chief economist, who believes that this year the US will see g d P of close to seven percent, and it's even better fourth quarter over fourth quarter, basically about seven point seven percent. And that's based upon let's say four factors. Number one, this very robust fiscal package. Number two, the

Fed staying basically friendly, UH. Number three, UH, the virus to press sectors beginning to rebound. And also let's remember that there's an awful lot of pent up savings in the economy. UH, the average consumer balance sheet and again I'm looking at the media and there are many exceptions, but the average exactly actually looking good. Debt balances are down, savings are up. And when people feel a little bit better about the outlook, UH, they'll start to to move

forward um and and start set think. And that's great for the economy. But you asked about the gloom crowd, and I think with the gloom crowd keeps coming back to is that there could be an uptick in inflation. Wouldn't be surprising. That's built into Yahn's forecast as well. But let's look at inflation as being a function of two different things. Number One, there are some special factors happening this year. Maybe it's the energy prices and so on.

And there's also, of course that quick rebound um in prices from the very depressed levels that we saw in some sectors. But the second important reason that inflation may move up a little bit um is that we are seeing an improved economy, and I think that's great news. You know, it's the opposite side of the coin. On one side, the economy is doing better. On the other side,

prices are not quite so depressed. The Goldman Sax forecast on cp I does show it moving up from about a one point one last year to two point five this year. But we're looking at CPI that by historical levels, that is not a problematic level for inflation, and by the way, that is the FEDS target level for inflation. About I think you've seen it all, and many people come on this program and they try and look to history to find a parallel with the moment we're in

right now. How original is this moment and what makes it unique? That's a great question. And I think what makes it unique is that none of us, regardless of how long we've been in the markets, have seen a pandemic inspired recession, UM bear market, and now of course the recovery. And what pleases us in terms of what might happen is that we are seeing policies that are aimed at providing relief. So we've had a friendly federal Reserve and other central banks are doing what they can

as well. And now, of course we have this very meaningful relief package coming in the form of fiscal policy. And I think it's important not to categorize this totally is a stimulus package, because it's not. It's a relief

package aimed at getting us out of the hole. And the next important thing to be watching is what the Congress can pass and the President can sign with regard to really moving us forward UM, and that would include UM, you know, things like the infrastructure reform, things like addressing some of the big issues in the labor markets, UM

and UH. There are some underlying problems that really must meet must be addressed, and are not quite addressed yet, even in this very large package that we expect to be assigned into law later this week. I mean, that's on the fundamental side, or it's become the fundamentals in terms of fiscal support. There's also a question on the technical side what that means in markets we've seen coming

into this year. This year is different also because the global reflation trade trade has not come along with a weeker dollar. In fact, the dollar is stronger against every single emerging markets currency major one out there a year a year to date, and we're looking today at the biggest cell off of the ms c I Emerging Market Currency Index versus the dollar going back to last March.

How does that alter your views going forward or do you think that this is the indication of a different regime where the dollar can strength and yields can rise and that doesn't come along with the rest of the rest of the world improving at the same pace. Yea, So let's let's step back for just a moment um.

When we do currency forecast, obviously we're looking at all the same factors that other people are, but one factor really has dominated since the beginning of the pandemic, and that is the safe haven nature of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency UM, and if anything, that has been somewhat in anst UM over the recent past, in part because the United States UM has been able to take somewhat more aggressive measures than other nations in coming out and we also are now looking a little

bit better in terms of vaccination rate and so on. What happens going forward in will be a function not just of US, but it's two of all currencies. What happens to other nations UM. So far we have seen some disappointment with regard to some of the emerging economies. But one thing we should all be watching is whether an improved tone in US economic activity will help bring our trading partners along with US. And that certainly would be a good new scenario. You know, John, you mentioned

that last week. I mean one final question, if we can on this day as we look to women like you that were out front. You know this and I know this from the CFA Institute that securities research lead the way, whether we're Abby Joseph Cohen, Luis Humata, what Sally Crocheck did at Bernstein, and the wonderful Alice bb Longley, who I read religiously years ago. I believe it at d l J. How do we impart what securities research did with women over to other parts of the financial industry, Tom,

It's a vexing question. What we basically see in financial services and some other industries as well, is that there may be a large number of women coming in at the bottom end of that pyramid, and we all have to do better, not just in financial services but other industries in enhancing that pipeline. So, for example, we do see that women are well represented in the number of industries, but as you move up, say to the VP level or the empty level, that's where we see uh flattening out.

And by the way, while we can point to problems here in the US, it's worse in most other countries. Um and and so they're looking to us interestingly to get things better. But let me spend just one more moment, you know, we we tend to think about these professional

white collar jobs. The real problem for many women in this has not been a good year for women who are really on the front line, those who are heavily represented in some of those virus afflicted sectors, including restaurants and accommodation, but also in state and local governments where women tend to be overrepresented by numbers in physitions like

teachers and social workers. And over the last year, state and local governments have in fact reduced jobs by something like nine hundred thousand, and that affects women much more dramatically. The labor force rate for women now is much lower than for men. If you look at adults, it's about participation for men, it's only for women, and this has long term consequences in terms of potential scarring of the

labor force, especially for women. I'll be really important issues and we appreciate your time coming on this probably around this morning to share them. Abbe Joseph coming that of Gellman sax An International Women's Day. We have been flattered by how our team has gotten us some important voices.

Abby Joseph Cohen on the Marcus Elizabeth economy in China and now Deborah Fuller from the number one microbiology platform in America that is all known as a University of Washington and their School of Medicine and Microbiology, where she provides important research leadership. Were thrilled she could bring us up to date on the pandemic. Deborah Fuller, there's so

many looking at the clear and present. You and your leadership at Washington are trying to figure out where we'll be on COVID two years from now, five years from now, and even indeed out the two thousand thirty one. How

do we prepare for the next virus? Right? So, right now we uh, we're doing great against the current viruses, but as we can see that, we're constantly battling new variants that are coming out Already the manufacturers Jane J. Mcdonna Viiser, they're updating their vaccines to combat the next

one to come. And so we're we're gonna enter in the cycle that would be similar to two flu, where we're just going to have to constantly get another update and and always lingering in the background would be uh, the potential that a new variant could emerge, It could cause yet another pandemic. That's the case for flu, and

that's the case for coronaviruses. So what we're working on is really thinking about the future, is really about developing what we would call hand coronavirus vaccine, one that would be able to induce immune responses against parts of the virus that are very conserved and and allow us to have immunity against not just the current variants, but future variants to come in and provide us protection against the

future pandemics. Are we constrained because we don't have an efficacious vaccine that can go worldwide and particularly to worldwide impoverished areas that we don't need the refrigeration or the fanciness of m RNA vaccines. Do we need to get to a basic vaccine? Absolutely. I have always said that the ideal pandemic vaccine is one that could be UH stored at room temperature and administered in a single shot

and ideally self administered. That is really the way to effectively and rapidly distribute and get a vaccine quickly worldwide, in into core as well as wealthy countries. That's another area that we're working on. We're working on a room temperature stable UH nucleic acid vaccine that's actually based on DNA rather than RNA, because that's much more stable and when that can be self administered without a need on syringe.

It's about to say self administered with a needle might be a different proposition, DOT or full or perhaps people wouldn't be that excited about that. There is There is a question though, whether the mr and A technology is shortened the time from the discovery of how to combat a new strain of either coronavirus or some other virus to actually getting vaccines rolled out into people's arms. How

much have we shortened the vaccine rollout? Oh substantially? With the RNA vaccines as well as the new viral vector vaccines that Jane j is developing, enables really rapid update because you only need the sequence of whatever variant is emerging to Traditionally, vaccines would take eight nine months to update. With these new technologies, we're looking at eight nine weeks to be able to update and then roll out a new version. Dr Fuller, How different are these vaccines from

one another? Base of this idea that a lot of officials are trying to prevent people from vaccine shopping, and yet there have been different efficacy rates, right they The efficacy rates are really based on the fact that the vaccines were at really different times. The Madonna Advisor m RNA vaccines were tested when the first variants emerged, and these vaccines, all three vaccines, were designed to combat that

initial variant. So so the the RNA vaccines were actually the world variant with stacked in favor of making those look actually better because when you have a vaccine that is a better match to the current variant, you're going to get better efficacy. So J and J by the time they got to their clinical trial, the variants had emerged, and so the differences I think in efficacy really can't interpret that to mean that to one vaccine is better

than the other. What's really important is if you look at real lot, real world impact, what we're seeing is all three of these vaccines have a profound impact and protecting against severe disease and death. I mean we're closed to protection from death. And that's really what's important. That's what we're after with vaccines is to get it to a point where we don't have to be afraid of the high mortality rate of this virus. To that point,

it's very close. Don't thanks few times today, don't to Debora full of that, the University of Washington School of Medicine professor. There is a point, is Liz Goldenberg lectured me years ago, where you switch from yield to a price analysis. Cathy Jones at Schwab Center for Financial Research, and knows this very well. She watches the flows of

what people are doing with their money. And Cathy, I calculate from the end of August, I have a tenure yield down a good amount in price, eight point three percent down in price. Are we heading for a bond bear market? You know? I think we could be over the long run. I certainly think that the lows that we've put in UH, those very very low yields around half of one percent on the ten year or I think a third of one percent of the tenure UH

is probably the low for a long time. But bear market is you know, price over time or yield over time. So we're looking out two to five years down the read. Yeah, I think that yields continue to go higher as long as the economy does recover from the COVID COVID nineteen crisis, as it continues to do. But the magnitude of the move from here is not likely to be nearly as fast or as great I think in the next leg

as it has been from that previous flow. Kathy, we discussed so many times about how self limiting a move high would be because of the amount of debt that we've added to this economy. I remember in and around one percent talking about one maybe it was maybe it was one fifty, one sixty Right now, where is it in your mind? Well, you know, one sixty was our target coming into the year, and now that we're here, we do start to see a little bit of that

pushback from the risk markets and risk assets. But certainly yields are not so high that we're going to see a huge economic deterioration from here unless unless we start to see credit spread blow out or something like that. You know, you push up towards positive real rate and the two percent plus area, and then we're probably going to see a negative feedback loop work its way through.

You know, you have a lot of companies, the smaller, low rated, unrated companies, the zombie companies that have been rolling over debt for a long time. Their ability to continue to do that if rates push up another forty fifty basis points is going to be challenged. Wait, that's important. Another forty fifty basis points. That's all it would take for some of these companies to face true financing pressures.

You're talking about in the high yield space in particular, Yeah, we just did an analysis of some of the zombie companies. That's hard to get really good data, but a lot of have been really living on fumes. And so you know, if you if you look at the private debt area, the really low rated UM bonds, they're going to be challenged unless unless the conditions changed in terms of revenue.

Well from here, the reason why this is such an important point, Cathy, is because people have come on this show and others and said that the real rate risk is for rates increasing, right, is duration and not credit because credit looks good given the backdrop that we have

in the easy financing conditions. Are you saying that that story is changing, that credit is starting to matter that much more because as you get that rise and interest rates, some of these credits are that much more sensitive to any tightening, let alone forty fifty basis points. Well, I think you have to differentiate between saying, you know, investment grade where we've seen a sell off from the investment

grade market basically because of duration, not credit risk. Right, And we're not worried about i G. Even in the higher rated part of hill, We're not worried as much because you know, this is a potent um combination of easy fiscal a very accommodative monetary policy, and very expansive fiscal policy. That's good for credit. But when you get into the lower rated credit where are you've seen this big build up of debt and the lack of earnings that we've seen. Unless they start to kick in on

those earnings, we're going to see some deterioration there. Well, Kathy, we have to talk about the next logical question then, and that's the maturity wall funding requirements, And from what we've seen in the last twelve months is an extension of the average maturity for so many of these companies because funding conditions have been so good. It's there a maturity wall on the horizon. I haven't heard about it.

Do you see it? Yeah? I don't have an askment of maturity wall that we're particularly worried about at this stage of the game. Um, you know, there is a lot of that build up and we're certainly going to face some financing problems down the road, but I think it continues to get pushed out, so that's not something we're worried about for this year or even early next year. Kathy. Always good to see you as always Kathy Jones of

the SWAB Center for Financial Research. We've been the great privilege of talking to those within the Ethan Harris shop at Bank of American Securities. As we mentioned with Dr Harris the other day, Michelle Meyer has been absolutely brilliant over the years and the pulse of the American economy. She joined us here with their leadership and not only that but her symbolism of International Women's Day and getting

it done. Michelle, you know we have followed followed your career and it's always narrow questions about this and that. I want to give you a broader question. What is the quality of US seven point three percent economic growth? What's the makeup of that big number you have Q four to Q four. Thanks Tom, and thanks for the

question having me on today on an important day. UM So, when you think about the drivers of US economic growth, and particularly this year with a studying we're forecasting seven point three percent growth, when you measured on that Q four of a Q four basis, we think a lot of it has to do with the consumer. It has to do with the resolve of the consumer to spend

and the ability of the consumer to spend. I mean, this is a household sector that is sitting on very strong balance sheets, that is sitting on a lot of dry powder in terms of the amount of cash that is accumulated and more to come um, which as a result of the latest stimulus spill um and and the consumer has already engaged, it's proven to be resilient, and we think there's a lot more to come um in the coming months and quarters as the economy continues to

move forward and it's reopening. Michelle, do you think that the concerns have been overstated that people have been holding cash simply to pay down debt going forward that's been deferred. I think that has been overblown on an aggregate basis. I'm sure that is happening on a on a micro level, and you certainly see that in some of the narratives and in the anecdotes that are out there, but you're

not seeing that on aggregate. I mean, when you think about the debt levels, we don't have that much debt to pay down. It's not the the two thousand eight period, or you had very very very much the case that there was access debt, you needed to deleverage. Households need to clean up their balance sheets. It's not the case today. We entered this crisis, this pandemic with pretty low debt ratios,

historically low financial obligations ratios. Um And I think yes, some will we go Some of that excess cash will be going to pay down debt, but the majority will be able to be used in some form, to be able to be kind of pumped back into the economy via spending. Well, the economy have the same sort of composition when people start pumping their money back in other word, services goods, given that that dynamic has shifted quite a

bit during the pandemic. In other words, are we going back to normal or is this going to be a new normal with perhaps more goods and fewer services just in general? Well, I don't think we Yeah, I don't think we should assume that we're going to go back to the economy as it looked prior to the pandemic.

Too much has changed in the world and in the economy in the last year, um And, I mean certainly the the embrace of more to technology, the embrace of an online retailer that has now you know, shown itself through a variety of different categories and sectors, to spend um. But you know, when you think about the basket spend right when the pandemic hit, Yes, people were predominantly spending on goods because they couldn't spend on leisure and other

types of services. Once they are able to spend on leisure and services, there will be a certain amount of demand that shows through for those categories, but that will be the equilibrium either. Right. We have to get past that pent up demand and then we'll figure out what that right balance is between goods and services. Michelle, do you know what's so original about this moment? I'd love

to get some insight into your conversations with clients. The bulls and bears both agree on whether data is going to be in about four months. They just disagree on how they think the fetes going to respond to it in the months after that. When you speak to clients, how many of them just roughly just throw out a number, how many of them are convinced by the FETs reaction function when data actually starts to pick up aggressively, when

inflation and starts to pick up too. You know, I would say the majority of the clients we talked to UM have an appreciation for the fence reaction function in that they recognize it is different than the prior cycle, that this is not a FED that is looking to normalize. This is not a FED that's going to hike upon a falling unemployment rate, And it's not a FAT that's going to hike when they start to sniff out inflation.

They are going to wait until the unemployment rate is below estimates of NERO, until you've reached that maximum employment measure. They're gonna wait until you properly have inflation. But here's here's the Here's I think the distinction where there's a debate. It's what's the level of inflation? Right? So is it that they need to say two percent inflation and they're going to want to get going, or will theF that actually be able to tolerate something above two percent for

a period of time. And that's where I think you do have a little bit of a disagreement amongst market participants that want to try to urge the FED along in their hiking cycle. And John, do you really really important question four months out? It's not only about the FED. It's this disagreement about the makeup of the American economy. It's raging debate and the darkts have changed, Michelle, the

targets in the labor market change. For this Federal Reserve and for market participants, we have to change what we're looking at too. It's not about aggregant numbers. It's about disparity. By definition, does not just mean Michelle, the Fed moves much later than they would have otherwise in previous cycles. Yes, that is exactly what the Fed is trying to communicate, and I think for very good reasons. They're saying, it's not just about getting that you three, that aggregate and

measure of the employment rate down. It's much more than that. Maximum employment is to be able to get people to re engage in the labor force. So look at these broader measures. I've include labor force participation rates. It's about getting the unemploymer rate down across income, racial and income. They said income divides, right, So it's it's broad based, it's complete. And the key to that is that it

will make it sustainable. Right, if you have an unemployment rate, if you have a labor market that's tight enough across the board, it could last, It could it could feed upon itself, and you can have a much stronger and more persistent recovery. What percent of the agony here the job agony forward is restaurants, bars, hospitality, What percent of it is pandemic jobs, and what percent is the greater

American economy jobs. So there's a lot of room for expansions still in those categories leisure in hospitality, and we saw that in the last jobs report the majority of jobs creed in the private sector were in leisure on hospitality, which was a payback from the decline we have seen in December of January and those categories. So, um, as economy reopens, you naturally will get a big jump in job creation in those categories. Will it get all the

way back to pre pandemic levels. I think that's debatable. There probably will be some inevitable scarring in those in those sectors, but yes, you will have certainly a good amount of job creation there. The key, though, I think, is what comes next as you know that tom right, once you get past that just kind of mechanical reopening swing, what does the economy look like. What's the momentum for growth,

and that I think will ultimately be field void. How much consumers are spending and how that this naturally feeds back into broad based business investment, which then feeds back into the labor market through your job creations. So you need to get to that positive feedback loop ultimately, UM, to get to get a better appreciation of what the economy looks like after this ALF set and done. Is it too early to do? Right? Hot? Guess is? Do

you have a right hot guest at this point? Miche three? Four? Yeah, Um, so we're in the camp that the FEDS first site will be in three more likely in the second half, in the first half, but that's you know, still up to up to the data. Frankly, Um, you know, to get the FETE to hike before that. To get the FETE to think about a hike next year, you know, a lot would have to go very, very very right. And again we are forecasting a lot to go right.

We are forecasting a very strong economy. But I think for the FETE to feel comfortable a lift off that quick, they would need to see the inflation cycle really really speed up, Inflation expectations move up in a meaningful way. UM wage growth showing signs again of increasing across the board, and that would convince them that inflation will be able to take off, and I'm just not convinced that will

happen by the end of next year. Michelle tremendous as always and good to see a michellema of Banks America Securities on this better Outlook, this better economy. This is a joy. Very Grant is with bursting and UH with the senior portfolio manager responsible investing, and she brings to the job and this concludes the s G and the rest of it. She brings to the job a prodigious resume and ability and all the different aspects of investing, including with the CFA Institute in her work years ago

on the study of shorting and such. She's just immensely accomp We're thrilled to a a value Grant. Whether it's your valerie. When did you realize on International Women's Day? Did it was a little bit challenging for women? Did that happen early on or did that happen when you walked through the door of the house at Sally Crawchuck Built. Oh

my goodness, well, good morning everyone. Um. I would say that, you know, that was sort of a realization for me as a young girl, but it's not something that I paid a lot of attention to or view necessarily as something to slow me down. And that's because of my mother. My mother was a very unconventional person in many ways. She was a mathematician by training, and she worked for the U. S Department of Defense as an operations research analyst.

So she was extremely smart and had a quite unconventional career for a woman at that time. And so I saw her, you know, get up and do what she was doing, and I said, well, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, and um, I just repeat it from there, so to speak. How do we extend that? Or Lisa Abramoins was telling me this morning of the challenges that her Chicago, of everybody in the room was a guy except her, and some of the fancy math she did.

I think of, you know what Sally Cratchuck did at your Alliance Bernstein then Sanford Bernstein and building out their research capability. How do we get more women doing what young Valerie Grant did, which is doing math, doing statistics. How do we how do we jump start that? Well? I think that really just making the the the learning experience perhaps more accessible and more engaging. And then also I think there's a lot of work to be done just to talk about how fun and how enjoyable a

career in finance can be. I think sometimes that's overlooked. People talk about the struggles and the challenges, but it's actually a really fun job interesting. Every day is different and new, and so I think we have to begin to convey that part of it more um and encourage women to to stick with it and to find their find their spot. My colleague Paul Sweeney has been miserable

every single day financial career. Yeah, Valerie, you know, I worked at twenty years on Wall Street as a research channelis and then I helped build the research department here a Bloomberg for about ten years. And what I found was, you know, some of those incoming classes of analysts, whether it's going into into the investment bank where they hire a couple hundred kids every year at a school or m MBA programs, they look pretty diverse. The statistics are

pretty darn good. But then when you get seven to ten years later, when you start talking managing director or partner, not so diverse anymore. It's it's that interim period where uh, women and other minorities seem to fall out of the workforce. It seems like you know that that's true. I think that there is certainly less diversity at the top of the house, so to speak. We are seeing some progress. I have my actually Harvard Business Field classmate, Jane Fraser

over at City running a major financial institution. There are several other women. Uh the Sunda Brown Ducket who just was named CEO at t I a A Is another example. So there are some examples of that glass ceiling being shattered. But I do think it's important for organizations to take a close look at their culture. They have to look at pay equity. They have to look at pay equity, and I repeat that at third time. They have to

look at pay equity because that's a signal. It says to a young woman or a person of color, or quite frankly, to white men, you'll be treated fairly here. Everybody has a fair shot. And I think that's something that the financial services UM industry, if you will, could do a better job on transparency, on pay equity, and also just you know, making sure that they're um they are actually enforcing those types of policies and practices is very important as a motivating factor. Yeah, all right, let's

shift to the markets, Valerie. You know we're hearing more and more about E s G investing, environmental social governance. Bloomberg certainly features a lot of data on the terminal to help investors with their investing looking at E s G. Talk to us about how you view uh this part of you know, portfolio management. I think that responsible investing, or the integration of environmental, social and governance factors into traditional approaches to investing is one of the most exciting

areas in asset management right now. Um. I think that what we've seen, particularly over the last couple of years is just an acceleration and focus on issues like climb change, diversity and inclusion, pay equity, which we've already discussed, worker safety, and data privacy and security, and all of these used to be considered ancillary issues. But I think what investors have realized is that they often have a direct impact

on equity values. And then if you look at the fixed income side of the house, there there are consequences there as well in terms of the credit worthiness of some of the issuers out there. So, um, it's exciting and I'm I'm happy to be part of it. Valerie when I look at E. S. G and you know it's all the rage. Let's be honest, all our radar, Valerie Grants radar, my radar, Paul Sweeney's radars up. Because when every something is the rage, it usually doesn't turn

out good. Are you concerned that it's so in that it could be challenging? I don't think so, because the reality is that they're still lot of work to be done in terms of even just basic levels of disclosure, corporate disclosure on material, environmental, social and governance issues. I

think that the data currently is still very uneven. So for those of you have been in the investing business a long time, you can probably remember back in the old days when the data even on basic financial performance perhaps was very inconsistently reported. So I think there's still a lot of opportunity for both fundamental approaches and systematic approaches in responsible investing. And I just think that the demand will continue for some time. Yeah, not enough time,

very Grant. We have to get you on again. Thank you so much for joining us with Alliance Bernstein and really running all of their responsible investing operations. Just hugely qualified value. Grant. Thank you so much. This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us live weekdays from seven to two Nami Eastern on Bloomberg Radio and on Bloomberg Television each day from six to nine am for insight from the best in economics, finance, investment, and

international relations. And subscribe to the Surveillance podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot com, and of course, on the terminal. I'm Tom Keene, and this is Bloomberg