Surveillance: Quite Muted Growth In 2019, Marangi Says

begin with our top story. According to people familiar with the matter, President Donald Trump is considering pushing back the deadline for imposition of higher tariffs on Chinese imports by full sixty days as the world's two biggest economies try to negotiate a solution to their trade dispute. JO want to us here in New York and please to say is Chris Marangia, Belly Funds CO Chief investment Officer. Good

morning to Chris, Good morning, glad to be here. Let's talk about the prospect of a grand bargain that we the Chinese and the United States. Your view unlikely. UM. I think we get a a minor bargain, perhaps that kicks the can down the road, avoids the tariffs coming in in March one. Um, but beyond that, I don't I don't think we get nearly the scope that the

President is looking for. Something we've discussed on this program over the last couple of days, is how difficult it is to position yourself for the political story in financial markets. It seems to me that short term sentiment is somewhat geared to whatever comes out of the president's mouth next on trade or perhaps even the government's shut down as well. How difficult is it to price the politics of Washington, d c. And should you even bother trying? Yeah, those

some politics are always part of the investment mosaic. They've been a little bigger part of the investment mosaic over the last couple of years, a couple of months in particular. Um, but yeah, the market is clearly looking to put the trade issue behind it, whether we get a grand bargain or not, and move on to the fun, the real

fundamentals of earnings. Let's get to the earnings. An earnings recess, that is the base case for a few people out there looking ahead to the earnings in the United States of America. What is your base case, Chris? Some sensitive earnings. So we're, you know, about halfway through the fourth quarter earning season. Earnings in general have been pretty good outlooks.

I would say, yeah, I would support the case that growth is going to be quite muted in so you see some I think we'll see some earnings growth, but nothing obviously like we did eighteen, which was powered in part by, of course, the tax cuts. We've seen some great earnings from some really significant companies in the last twenty four hours, Cisco being one of them, and together with the earnings, they come out with it a boost to their buy back program fifteen billion dollars additional boost

to the buy back program. What do you make of the politics of buying backs in the last couple of weeks. Yeah, so clearly the Democrats are going to make income inequality a campaign issue in the lex selection, and they're trying to attack it in a number of different ways, including

wealth tax, higher marginal rates, and buy backs. I think the misconception around buy backs is that the money that goes into buy backs just goes into a vault somewhere against earned in the street, when the reality is that when we sell into when we sell harvest an investment and sell into a buyback or sell to another investor, the money gets redeployed into high in better uses, and that is what leads to productivity growth and growth in the economy. Coca Cola just came out and headlined four

earnings growth. I remember eighteen months ago, two years ago, Honeywell came out and said eight percent earnings growth. It was a buoyant revenue growth. Does your world change with low single digit revenue growth? Yeah, that's the world that we live in based on based on population and productivity growth, which ultimately drive real growth. UM. So you know, copies are trying to boost that by improving margins and we're probably sort of at the late innings and that, uh,

and obviously through buybacks. This question came up this weekend. What does that do to companies that can develop double digit revenue growth? It makes it makes makes makes more valuable. Then how much on a multiple do you take that a given twenty multiple? How much do you grows the

pe multiple because they can do double digit revenue growth? Yeah, I mean, clearly the companies that there is a scarcity of growth, and that has driven some of the valuations that we've seen around the Fang for example, and as I mentioned earlier, I think it also drives M and A. Companies that have strong balance sheets are going to look to buy growth well, let's talk about the Biback story a little bit more, because you've touched on it, and

I think it's really important. Is there any evidence whatsoever that suggests that buybacks are done at the expense of investing in R and date, any evidence whatsoever not that I've seen, And I would say I would go further and say that I think that it's more likely that money ends up in the vault of a company or getting burned in the street, per per se by a company if they're not allowed to buy back stock, because you know, they're more managements are more prone to to

waste the money. And ultimately, what the Rubyo proposal is as a tax increase, a corporate tax increase, and he is implying essentially that the federal government is a better capital allocator than the private sector, which is contrary to a lot of Republicans country, to the lot of thought of the individuals listening to this program. I'm sure as well the broader issue. If you've touched on, you you agree that the government is better at distributing capital than

than financial private actors. Valentine's Day, in Love with every You're in love with the government, Okay, big government big government, big government, Valentine. Okay, well, happy Valentine's Day to you. The broader issue, quite clearly is wealth inequality, and when that becomes the broader issue, I'm just wondering where the capitalism and financial markets get caught up in this and how we need to think about this really key issue

going into Chris. How do you think about it? Yeah, so, you know, I think you saw some of that late

last year in the multiple. Right, the airrings are going to be what they're going to be, and then you put a you put a multiple on that, and that multiple reflects a lot of factors, including expectations about interest rates and growth and productivity, and also has some embedded expectations about what the political environment is going to be and if it's gonna be worse it's gonna be, if it's gonna be more hostile to capitalism, then you're we

should require a higher equity premium, in other words, put a lower multiple on those earnings. Really, and that's something we should be thinking about doing now as opposed to something that may come up and maybe we're relevant next year. I think it's it's it's something always worth reflecting upon. It's something that we reflect upon. Um, you know, we don't, you know, amongst many other factors. But but I think the market didn't think about that. And like last year,

That's what a fund interesting about all this. There's there's new uncertainties to think about. There always are whenever you're looking at financial markets and financial market history. There is always something new to worry about. And it was only a couple of months ago that it was almost seen as sufficient, we can just get through all of this. If we just get some kind of trade truce and the fedbacks away, that would be sufficient for risk markets

to perform. Is that enough anymore? Well, there's yeah, there's always another hurdle to jump. Um, you know, if we get beyond the trade deal, I'm sure the focus will return to to Brexit, Italy, slowing growth in China, et cetera. Yeah, but even within what I hear, it was maringue caution and is a value shop belly. What I'm hearing is be in the markets. Understand it's not going to be a bang up year, but you've got to participate because the cash is going to keep coming down the income statement.

Is that right? That's exactly right? I mean, listen over a long period of time. If you look at the chart, if you look at the evocent data going back, you know years. Market generally rises over time, and it's based on again population growth, productivity growth, and uh. And you stay in the market and and you continue to grow your assets. John, is there a publicly traded Premier League soccer team? Is there one that you can buy shares

in where you can actually make money? Manchester United's listed. Okay, this gentleman here is a larger shareholder of the Atlanta Braves baseball team as well. Explain to our audience and dazzlement of Donaldson and Company down in Atlanta. Well, our clients are the largest shareholders of the Braves. So the Braves are public company. It's actually Tracker stock controlled by John Malone. It's Liberty Braves. And the attraction is the same attraction that a lot of other wealthy people have

to sports franchises, which they're they're great stores of value. Um, they've got a lot of secular tail winds behind them. Um, millennials love do they don't always cash? Do you and your shareholders? How do they do not pay a dividend? They do not buy backstock today? They are deploying cash in I guess what you'd call R and D, which is buying new players and which is a second you know the cut off, and we're very hopeful for the season this year, but you know the value of that team.

This is cf A institute level two is not the phrase I'm very hopeful. Is not all that correlated to the performance on But yeah, you look at the most valuable franchise in the NBA. It's ten wins this year. So there are a lot of other factors. But what about Celtics up in Boston. Did they do a public thing? Did you guys play with that? We we didn't. That was a quasi public. But there is one other public sports franchise which Johnson nobat, which is Brusia Dortmund traded

in Germany. And Stock is not performing. You sit up, Oh, this is more interesting than the Atlanta Braves by by your tots son Son getting done. Um. But but this is important, John Freud. I mean, if I say to Chris marangi is Mario Gabelly doing the tomahawk chop. We're rooting for the Stock, We're rooting for the Yankees, but we're rooting for Shane fond of the Tomahawk chops part of the American fab Michael Barr help us out here, please, Yeah, that's what are they gonna go? Oh? You know the

Indian thing we doing. If you have a chance to go to SunTrust Park, their new park, do it or the BB and T SunTrust Park, whatever it is. Chris MARANGI think is so much Liberty Braves the largest holding for Gabelly Tom. The latest day around of Germany is not looking pretty barely avoiding recession in the final quarter of people saying yeah, but it's almost research growth totally stagnating and for the continent, for the Eurozone GDP coming

in at zero point two for the fourth quarter. I think the big question for market participants, Tom is is that as bad as it gets, do we stabilize here? Is this an inflation point? Have we bottomed out for European growth? I want to bring in, Carolyn, look from Frankfurt Bloomberg Economy and ECB report and let's talk about the economy. Then the potential for a policy response, Carolyn, Is there a belief that the worst is behind us for the German and Eurozone economy? Hi? John, Um, that's

a very good question. You're very right that GDP is the key data point coming out of Europe today. And we had a lot of attention, especially on the German release UM, where you know, we had the economy stagnating, which was worse than a lot of analysts expected. But if you look at the market um reading of those figures so far, it seemed that it wasn't enough to you know, spark another big sell off in the euro.

So the story behind that is that UM, there are still quite strong underlying fundamentals UM, and that's what the market is reading into. And the Economy Ministry said as much. They said that domestic demand was still supporting growth in Germany and any weakness that we're seeing right now, it is really due to an industrial recession. Okay, I'll go with that, and maybe then has to fold over to trade. The Commerce Bank CFO this morning alluded to the reality

of negative interest rates. Caroline, Look, you are living negative interest rates. What do negative interest rates? Due to the culture and fabric of Europe and particularly Germany. I mean, Germany is uh famous for not being a fan of negative interest rates. UM. I think at the moment the focus of the ECB is more um to to kind of wait and see how the economy responds to their

having tapped QUI purchases. Um So, ECP officials really haven't said very much about interest rates beyond the fact that they're going to keep them at their current levels through the summer. Um So, I think what they're looking at is is data releases like the one that we saw this morning and trying to see, you know, is this transitory or is there something more protracted going on? And a lot of that depends on on trade, on certainties, and on Chinese growth. Um So, it's a lot of

it is beyond Europe's controls. Yeah. But but John Ferre, I think this is important. I walked down the street in New York and if I see a three month c D, you know, it's a minuscule yield, but there it is. Caroline, do you walk down the street in Frankfort and rates? Did they do they advertise negative rates? I'm serious. Uh, they definitely don't. But I did have I did have an interesting conversation with a taxi driver the other day. He was asking me, when, uh, interest

rates might be going up? Um, you know, after after I told him what I do and uh, I told him about how the the narrative at the moment was about you know, waiting and seeing and seeing how current economic weakness plays out. And he had no idea that there was any economic weakness going on. And that's that's amazing. You really do have a very strong domestic economy here. You know, you have a very strong labor market, you

have growing real income. So he was like, you know what, I have no idea but that that's even going on, because that's that's really a separate part of it. You guys have touched on something important. We joke about the fact that you don't advertise negative interest rates. The problem is when you look at the German curve toom it's actually really stayed compared to the United States. Well certain, but as you know, as a bank, you borrow short, you lend long. But the banks can't pass on the

negative interest rates to the deposit base. They have to absorb the costs themselves. And that's why many people consider this to be a tax on the bank. And what's so important here, folks, for you in America listening to this mus look is in Germany living this where economists in bow ties paper you're talking about yourself. But it's sterile. What I would say, Caroline, is it's sterile analysis versus

the malaise that Germany's living. Um. Yeah, yeah, I mean, but as as as John was already saying, I mean, we don't really feel the impact of that, and um, you know it's it's it's really the banks that are absorbing this. And you know that kind of makes sense then in terms of why you often hear this narrative coming from the banks who are complaining more about negative interest, it's because you have a very bank based economy in Europe, right, so for them it hurts for the consumer not so much.

I want to pick up on a point that you've made, and I want to leave it here because I think it's critical how you untangle the slowdown in Europe, whether it is based on the trade story, the slowdown in China, or whether there's something more domestic taking place that the Europeans can address. Which one is it, Carolyn, I mean, at the moment, it really seems to be more down to ex ternal factors. Um. You know, in Germany in particular, you're really focused on exports and trade, and you know

the situation with growth in China. UM. But you're right that there is also something to be said about the domestic situation. You know, how can the euro Area boost its innovation? It's productivity, um. And you know that's something where the ECB has been very vocal about hosting fiscal reforms. UM. Right, that that kind of thing. So it's it's a bit of both. Really, Caroline, thank you so much, Thank you, really really really interesting. We look forward to speaking to

you when interest rates go positive. That's going to be like five, ten years, maybe twenty. I don't get. You don't get. This week marks the twentieth anniversary of Japan taking interest rates to zero, and it makes you think about Europe and the position that the ECB is in and how long we're going to be down here. I'm going to give you credit, Chan, I'm looking to the German tenure point one zero and you said, what three or four weeks ago? Whoa look at that? And there

it is and with an effect on America. Much much to talk about this morning. There's a little bit of Brexity news for those to keep up with the soap opera. The Prime Minister, I guess has a vote in Parliament today. Johnny blurs. Ohanna Edwards is a saint. She really tries to keep up with it. I really get the whole team in London is a fantastic job. You try as well, Anna and I try, but not like you. A Brexit tourist a couple of times a year. Yeah that's that's nice.

We gotta Washington Terms chief correspondent of Brexit every now and again. I've in London. I enjoy it when you go over that. I love you, Fridge of Brexit. Yeah, well you know, why don't you bring in Mr Freyn. I'm going to okay over there. Yeah, we did Equity Murder. Ye, are just set up for you in the Real Yield tomorrow's show. The Real Yield is undermind. Yeah that one pm? Thank Easton. Aren't you off tomorrow? I am so off. Does that mean you've got a big date tonight? Yeah,

with afterthought. It's a Valentine's date date with afterthought. Yeah, that's gonna be good fun. You booked a restaurant, yeah, McDonald's third ever, maybe first ever McDonald Matt fraud Great to have you with us. Colambos Advisor's head of fixed income Strategies and coat ce Io there is a hope Matt, that we can engineer a soft landing. What's the soft landing? And can we engineer one? So I think we absolutely

can engineer a soft landing. I think that, Uh. My definition is where growth moderates, where the FEDS objectives of keeping inflation under control keeping an employment high are met, and I think we're on that path. The wild cards, though, are all of the global soap operas that you were talking about and FED policy itself. Are they going to overdo it? And so far we don't think they have any signs of something evolving that would encourage the federals of to come back in put a one in the

way they've pulled one over the last culture. Well, I think people have really misunderstood what the FED did. I I think the Fed um was did the right thing. In December they raised rates. The market was expecting a hike sometimes in December or January. Where they got it wrong was the communication afterwards. And I think we're at a stage now where if risk assets continue to do well, if the economy here domestically get some traction um, I think it's quite possible that the FED will be back

raising rates later in the year if things. If that doesn't happen, I think we're going to see a long pause. You had such a long history in the business, and then you join this magnificent columbuside of you know, out of Illinois, way out of Chicago, Naper Villain and all that, and you guys own what I'm going to call the early derivative train of fixed income here synthetic things and goofy things if you will. Within fixed income, you guys are decades out in front on all that. John Klumus

wrote the book. He wrote the book on this, He literally invented the book, folks on some of the odd things in fixed income. Is it a full faith in credit market, which is what we quote all the time, or our listeners are they missing a true yield opportunity away from government paper? So I think they absolutely are. One of the messages that we try to give is that it is not just one bond market. It is

a market ad bonds. And in any given day there are sectors that we like and we think have opportunity. Their sectors that are overvalued and that we we think you want to start with the over valid Where do our where does our audience need to run from right now. So I think the biggest question marks in my mind are the weaker part of the investment grade market. We've seen tremendous growth. There a lot of companies issuing debt

to buy backstock. We think that there's potentially a lot of problems there when the market, So you're going to quality is the opportunity. Well, so it's really a barbelled approach because I think on the other side, the high yield market gets tarnished in this whole credit problem. High yield has been very well behaved. There's a handful of deals that we don't like that maybe the covenants were too far, but really the high yield market is also

still healthy. Let's talk about the dividing line between investment grade and high yield, triple bays and double bays. That spread is as tight as it has been for the last decade. What's the story in the price action and that's spread right now? Yeah, So I would tell you that it's it's hard to speak in large generalities. And here's why. You can find um single b bonds that are much tighter than double bees. You can find investment grade wider than double bees or or single bees, and

so it's really name specific and sector specific. What I guide you to is that well known names, decent liquidity, good business plans there those are still relative in our mind, very attractive three to five years. It's some of the esoteric stuff where you can get into let's go into the triple base and go a bit deeper, maybe sector specific, maybe even company specific, if you'll allow us to go there.

There is a concern that a lot of those companies have massive debtloads, that leverages being picking up and they're going to drop down into high yield, into junk full and angels that's sitting on this market is big concerned the triple B universe which has become bigger and bigger and bigger. Can the c suite engineer turnaround where they can defend their credit rating? Are you hopeful that can happen?

And where are you hopeful that is happening? So I think that the message went out last year in the second half that this idea that you can borrow forever to buy back stock is a strategy that you need to rein in a little bit, and we think that we're seeing that. So I think, no, don't continue so so so your point is really a good one, and um, we think that that activity is going to uh soften, and we think that you know, for on the equity side.

Uh you know you heard Doug before. I mean, that's a source of buying that I don't think is going to be there until balance sheets are are repaired. The rough math, um, so the triple be market, the week trip will be market is about two times the high yield market, and about half of that of that has what used to be when I started in the business high yield statistics from leverage. Wow, that's that's actually some really important math. I'm going to suggest John Colombos did

not invent invent the loan market. The senior loan. John was the upwar last year peak of the market. Everybody couldn't sell this stuff fast enough. Leverage loans, that's right. I mean your thoughts on what everybody was talking about six months ago? Was it all clear? Uh So? I think leverage loans can be a very attractive investment. Going from high yield of leverage loans could make sense. Well, so leverage loans are Jeff, generally top of the credit stack.

Uh so they're gonna get paid back first to the extent that there are covenants, they generally have them, uh, and they're a floating rate instrument. If you're worried about rates still going up, the problem is going to be the people who are stretching from the investment rate space going into loans because it can have a very different return characteristics. So it's de risking from the high yield side, but it's taking more. But you have to be so

active about doing this. And I'll and I'll say why some and I think this is really important. We often hear a lot of people say this is secure to higher up in the capital structure. That's great, so long as you've got something beneath you. The worry is in leverage loans as there are so many loan only companies. Now why you think you are up in the capital structure, But you're it because there's nothing below. So you have to turn around and see if there's anybody back in

back of you in the line. And that's absolutely right. So that's that's a newer development, and that's something that we're very cautious in. You're very cautious in that. So well, when I think so it's name specific, but you don't so Basically you're saying, don't buy the index, you do the legs, high yield or loans. It's idiosyncratic. There are art sectors to like and not like. Let's do some math.

How much yield can we pick up with a Colamos approach off of what the perceived yield is of the market, because I think people don't realize they can pick up more than fifty basis points. Have a percentage point? Are yield? Oh sure so? Um so the high yield market today is yielding seven seven and a quarter Depending on the yield, we generally yield a little bit more than that. We take a very bond by bond approach. Uh so more like seven and a half. You have to deduct fees.

So why now today after fees you're probably talking something in the mid six is that that we can give? The great news here is that you don't have a lot of duration if you're worried about that, because if you're picking up we're picking up three hundred basis points. Yeah, so the ration of the high yield market is generally a three to four years sort of, I think John, I think that's the number one thing about the real yield tomorrow and Bloomberg Television people think hi Yield is

twenty year paper. Do you when it comes to the unitorial mating, No, I don't need to come To've never been in the show. Did duration of how Yield already have the market last year? It sure did? And then the on the other part, the duration of the investment grade market is the longest that it's almost ever. I always go back to eighty nine because that's when I started in the business, and it's almost never been longer than it is today. Are you gonna be here tomorrow? Uh? No,

Actually I'm flying back. That was so brilliant. A email McKinnon, who does all of our social media, I said, please put that front out on the podcast today. That was a clinic. That was folks. If that's what this is all about, is talking to people that really inform and advance the dialect. Map prone with Klamas of Chicago and

annoying definitive bond House, this is a joy. Mona Mahajan is with Alliance Alian's Global Investors rather Alian's Global Investors, and what's cool about her is she has one of the most coolest double majors of any school. In the world. She's got the Wharton's economics Like, that's a big deal. But the magic the Pixie dust down at Wharton is to dual major economics and computer sciences. I mean it's very few mona. How how did you get through that grind? Oh?

Thank you Tom, great to be on first of all, and happy Valentine's Day. Um, that was quite a grind doing that dual degree in squeezing it in four years. Anything since then has not been as challenge. Give us the mathematics or the organizational structure of the chaos out of December in the equity markets. If you do a

matrix analysis on it, you do it? Can you? That was very unexpected, that December move across the board, So yes, I don't think any models predicted that, although the quantitative analysis may have exacerbated it so soon it How about how about the January rallies? You put the December pullback in context of what we've seen so far in how do you square that peg right there? It seems like

the volatility there was just extraordinary. Yeah, you know, it's interesting the December pullback so down, uh, peak to trough and the SMP followed by almost a complete reversal of that from decembery to where we are today about up seventeen percent um. You know what what I'd say is the December pullback a lot of that had to do with US recession fears UM and recession fears that were

probably early and somewhat unwarranted. Now the pullback from that, you know, we've we've recovered almost all of it um. But I think the next leg up the next five to will be a little bit more challenging and a little bit more volatile. We obviously still have to climb a few walls of worry, not only from the geopolitical side,

but from the economic side. And clearly you know tomorrow will get government shutdown news March first, well we'll talk trade March twentieth, another f O m C meeting, and then of course somewhere in the background there Brexit has to uh secure itself for finalize at the end of March. So we're watching all these events pretty closely as we

move on through the next few weeks. So when you mentioned some of those macro items, and they seem to have been you know, one of the components in the December slide, how much do you think, um, they really drove December. And then conversely, maybe we're getting some light at the end of the tunnel as it relates to trade deals and government shutdowns and how much is that impacting kind of what is going on in the markets today.

It seemed to be pretty pronounced. Yeah, you know, I do think that the markets have priced in or have climbed some of these walls of worry one by one. So we are seeing, you know, on the shutdown front, President Trump has said he will likely sign some committee resolution tomorrow. On the trade front, we're getting pretty positive feedback.

You know. I think the fact that President she is actually meeting with some of our U S delegates out there, um adds a note of you know, gravitas to the whole process, adds some real you know, hope as well. So I think that's that's the positive. And I think, you know, given what's happened with retail sales clearly this morning, I do think the Fed, you know, for clearly for in March twentie uh f O MC meeting is off the table. So um, those are that's a pretty positive

background for markets overall. And I think that's what we're seeing. Um, you know, every time you get this kind of move, you always have to worry about the markets don't go in this kind of straight line forever. So we are cautious about some point taking that maker. The big institutional car right now is everybody's on board e M. After an ugly two eighteen, is Alian's onboard em And can you do that with dollar strengths? A great point on

the dollar strength. So, you know, our our general view coming into the year was that looking globally, we had a somewhat of a barbell approach. So on one hand of that barbell was the US, which remains kind of the best on the block in terms of the developed market at least and clearly compared to what's happening in

the European economies. The other hand of that barbell was China in particular and then selective e M. Part of that story was, you know, not only the trade progress, but clearly some of the fiscal stimulus that's being injected in China in particular, and valuations were pretty attractive supported by you know, a dollar. You know, at least, the story was the dollar may stabilize this year even weekend um. What we've seen clearly, at least in the last month

of dollar has been up almost nine percent UM. When the FED kind of paused or reversed, we did see some dollar softening or dollar weakness, but that quickly reversed when the rest of the world followed suit. So we saw surprise rate cuts from you know, Bank of Australia, Bank of India, you know, Bank of England followed suit. And so the FED is now not the only on the block, you know, pursuing this somewhat easing strategy, and so I think that's kind of creating some more dollar strength.

And so clearly one of the tail wins for the e M story is now kind of being taken off the table. And so we're watching that carefully. EM's had a great run already. Um So I do think, uh, you know, for it to go up another leg higher, we need not only a decent resolution on trade, um, a decent you know, the fiscal stimulus to start kicking in, but perhaps some more stabilization in the dollar some on it.

Just real quickly twenty seconds, how important our earnings here with the FED on the sideline, what you know, maybe have an earnings trough here in the first quarter. How closely do you need earnings to really support this market? Yeah, you know, I think earnings will be critical going forward for this year. I'm clearly Q one will be soft, and we've seen estimates already come down. We're actually um positive on that that they've come down to now, I

think about negative one point two for Q one. Um. What we're really watching is on a year on your basis, our call is for four to six percent earning score owth for two. That number has actually come down quite a bit um from you know, early last year to even the end the last end of two thou eighteen. So if we can get that, we do think Mitchell digit or equity returns are feasibly you know, four to six percent earnings growth plus two percent dived in deield

and perhaps some multiple compressions. So we remain hopeful for that that outcome. That Mona. Thank you so much motivation with this Allian's Global Partners. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keane before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio