Surveillance: Marangi Sees Value In Small Caps

at the Peterson Institute as well. Adam, I'm gonna cut to the chase. This is a massive victory lap for Olivier Blanchard. He was half a decade, if not more, out front on this concept. What does Olivier Blanchard said of this historic moment. I don't have anything public from the Vier to say. I hope you'll have him on to speak for himself, Tom, But I think all of us said Peterson, and all of us have been engaging

in monetary policy. View this as a victory that since maybe a decade ago, certainly since we've been asking the FED and the other major central banks to recognize the reality that the inflation response to unemployment is much lower. It's meaning a flatter Phillips curven than. I thought that there is reason in distributional terms for equity as well as economic efficiency to push the economy hot, that the NEHRU was being too precisely incorrectly estimated and relied on

too much. And we've seen in a series of steps from chair Pal, Vice Chair Clarata, lit Brainerd and others them moving towards this more reality based monitor. I think it's a huge step. The Latin phrases here are ex ante an ex post let's translated on a Monday morning, which is I think of a Georgia school. Richard Timberlake, Robert McTier and others saying, look, you've got to wait

to see the evidence before you move. Is this a fed that can actually get out front of events or do they completely capitulate to an after the fact policy. I think they are rationally deciding that being ex anti oriented wasn't working. And the biggest thing you can take away from chair Pal's remarks is this sense of pragmatism, and the only reason not to be pragmatic is fear of instability, which doesn't seem to be in the car.

I mean remember, Thomas, you've said, as everyone is said the Fed, as the quotes from the federals are bank presidents you had on the clips, the FED is undershot its inflation target, undershot its forecast for years. So the idea that somehow this ex anti preemptive approach is working was a mistake. And I think there were others, including Charlie Evans of at Chicago, Larry Summers, myself, Olivier who you mentioned, who we're talking about things like wait till

inflation appears. And as I cited in a recent blog post, the Nobel Laureate Bob Solo was debating that favor of experimenting on lower unemployment against John Taylor's rules back and

they're running. This argument has been there, and I really want to emphasize here Mr Evans of Chicago Folks, who's been extremely articulate and laying this out as a public official, obviously president of Chicago Fed, ad imposing to me what's so important here is not so much the theory of John B. Taylor of Stanford, but the granularity and data dependence of Alan Greenspan and the idea of a measured approach.

Should we fear being less measured. No. I think, if anything, this is a move back towards the green span of the mid nineties, that you are increasing discretion at the same time you're increasing a commitment to what you're calling granularity, which is real world, real time data. You can't do it totally without there, you can't do it totally without

some discipline. But the whole point of inflation targeting, which Bernankee, Louboch Michigan, and I argued now twenty years ago, was that it's trying to calibrate a right balance between discretion and rules and anchor your expectations through transparency, through a discourse with the public and markets about what's really going on. And that's Greenspan wasn't great on the discourse part, but

he was good on the rest of it. We've been sorry. Well, we're writing for Robert Samuelson to publish a course at the Washington Post and his great one volume, a nice, good read on Walter Heller in the time of the sixties, and it goes to this phrase stop go policy, where yeah, you're more you're more ad hoc, you're more looser in your policy. But do we risk the stop go volatility of pol let's see that we witnessed in the late

sixties into the seventies. We risk it slightly, but I don't think it's a realistic risk, and especially compared to what we've already seen, not a risk, which is the kind of secular stagnation and the lack of traction of monetary policy, and most of all, as chair Poal I think has rightly put it, or I rephrase chair Pal, they left potential employment gains on the table for years for no good purpose. And again ex anti ex post

x anti. You can understand why they were changed, why those decisions were made, even though some of us aregued against them, but the ex post is clear that they were leaving output employment opportunities, convergence in real wages across racial groups on the table out of fear for inflation.

That didn't come that. This issue is if this flips us into a high inflation world of say the Phillips curved king, like my colleague Joe Gannon and Kristin Forbes are, it's pretty easy for the Fed to go back and raise right. So I don't view this as that risky path. People will say that the next post they're going to find out it's not imposing. Right now history is being made with an American delegation and Mr Kusher on board. L all One is well out over the southern southeastern

Saudi Peninsula, making the bank turn into Abu Dhabi. This is the politics of a fractious region hinged together by central banking and finance. Tell us about not the integrity, but tell us about the solidity of the central banks

of the United Arab Emirates. I'm not an expert on that region, but I do know that they together with the central banks and BRAIN and Saudi, they they are professionally run, they are part of the central banking community, and they of course have been running this coordinated peg on the doll and this is where it all comes together. Other because you have the FED continuing to anchor worldwide

use of the dollar. The other way this Middle Eastern issue comes in those um is the US government, increasingly under Trump but also with democratic use and encouragement, keeps overusing unilateral financial sanctions. And if they keep doing that, you you you overuse it. Then you incentivize places like Foudy, like the UA about to mention China and Russia to get out from under the dollar and out from under the US financial system, and that's going to be something

to watch and coming years. The FED can make it attractive to being the dollar, but the U. S Government of using the role of the dollar and overusing sanctions can make it very unattractive. And that's when you start getting alternatives being put forward. Go back to Carney's speech at Jackson Hole a year ago. Dr Posen, thank you so much, always informative adam posing of the Peterson Institute. Right now we migrate to a discussion here in an

important discussion of the view forward given equity valuations. We do that with Sebastian page of t ro Price. Sebastian, I've got to rip up the script here and go to your hugely anticipated book out in November. Beyond diversification. This has been a huge theme of my work here recently. Are we over diversified? Just simply, Sebastian, to the heart of your book. Are we too diversified and too diffuse in our potential return? I don't think we are. In fact,

to me, it's very simple. Diversification fails exactly when we needed the most, and we've just lived through this during COVID now you know this, most investors know this, But in the book I argue that the magnitude and the prevalence of the failure of diversification is very much underestimated

and buy investment pros. And you know, every time we get crisis like the one we just had in a big market sell off, people seem surprised that correlations that are normally in the zero to fift range jump to the nine plus percent range. There are huge investment implications to that. Tom, your question is about are we over diversified? I would say I don't think so, but I don't think that we are well diversified either. With a focus on those market sell offs, those tail risks, if you will.

Is Mr Buffett buying into diversification with his five trading companies. These are the historic companies of Japan with an absolutely unique, some would say over diversified, hyper risk managed industrial structure.

Is that a constructive diversification? I think he is because he's getting international diversification and it's not hear what he's doing with the current series, but he's also potentially getting exposure to that factor, and he also remains quite diversified if you think about it, with his cash buffer, and the whole idea is that when Marcus sell off, the way you think you're diversified really doesn't play out. And I keep coming back to this idea of of downside

versus upside diversifications. On Buffett's case, I think here he's increasing what I would call it good aspect of diversification, which is global diversification. There's also a question of whether bonds provide the same sort of diversification. Just crossing the Bloomberg, I should mention that German the German inflation rate fell to negative zero point one percent versus the expectation for a rise of zero point one percent, giving an ongoing

bid to German debt US treasuries. This idea of no inflation going forward is the sixty four any portfolio dead, Lisa, We've been debating the role of treasuries in particular as diversifiers and investors portfolios. We all know that when markets sell off, risk assets sell off together, even if in normal times they have different fundamental That leaves you with

the duration factor. The role of treasuries and portfolios. When we hit the zero bound, treasuries are not as good a diversifier as they as you would expect or as you would need them to be. I looked at the nominal yield on the Barclays Global aggregate this morning, and I know on the show you like to talk about nominal versus real yield, but let's just stick the nomenal yield ninety one basis points on my Bloomberg this morning, right,

nine one basis points on the Barclays Global aggregate. So if we get a sell off, there's high valuations, markets are fragile, we're going through on certain recovery. If we get a sell off, what kind of rally can we get in bonds when the starting yield is ninety one basis points? Well, and that goes to the Warren buffet beat, the basic diversification as the place to look for income. How much is the currency play the main play here, the look for some sort of haven and the yen

being that Sowart versus U S bonds. Yeah, I think you have to begin to look through asset classes to the underlying factors. So currencies can play a role in diversification, but you also have to begin to think about hedging strategies. You have to begin to think about more dynamics strategies like directly managing your volatility. All these different approaches, including active management and the long short investing, become more important in the portfolio in a world where you don't get

much diversification from your trashuries. Semester too short of visit will have to do this again, and of course this autumn will have a celebration of his book Beyond Diversification Sebastian page with tro Price. Right now, this is a really important interview, she writes in fancy medical journals. Mercedes Karnathon is a Northwestern University professor of medicine. There with the workout of Stanford and North Carolina over the years,

and we're thrilled she could join us. And I don't want to talk fancy medicine professor, I want to talk your glorious interview with w L S in Chicago back in June, where someone is knowledgeable as you worried about the sweat of what you do with your kids in this pandemic to get them to socially interact. We are back to school now, who's doing back to school best? You know? Those questions are really critical and I find it to be critical across our society and medicine, as

well as how it contributes to our economy. So the places that are going to do the best with returning to school safely are going to be those locations where the community spread is fairly low. And that's because what we can expect to see within a school is a reflection of what's currently circulating in the community. And so in places such as Florida and Georgia and Texas, which coincidentally open schools the earliest and try to open schools amidst high case rates in the community, we see a

lot of reports of outbreaks. I'm very hopeful that places such as the Northeast that are opening up early in September, we'll have a different experience because their community burden is lower. But do your very emotional article for w l S and Chicago, folks. It was really something about the sweat of parents with young children, like, actually, what do you do in London? They are begging for people to them back to the office. People up there, Dr Carnathon are

afraid to go to work. And I want to say, folks, Bloomberg has been phenomenal with me and Lisa about getting us safely to work every day Pharaoh, they don't give a damn about but me and Lisa, they'd be really really good about. Dr Carnathon, Are we over doing this? Should we get back to work? And get back to work? Now you have the challenge of getting back to work is whether or not we can actually find somewhere for

young children to go. I have a five and seven year old who will be home all day with me today, So what I get done is very questionable. And I think businesses feel this, and they see this, and they walk their employees back and rightly so. However, for the millions of working parents who've got extremely young children who can't stay alone, that's not going to be feasible without some sort of notable intervention, Dr Carnathon. At the heart of this question is how much we know about the

transmission of COVID nineteen. Do we have a sense of just how contagious it is whether you're outside or inside. Yes. What we know so far, and it's certainly emerging, is that rates of transmission are lower when you're outside because the air droplets they get dispersed a little more. We know that protecting ourselves wearing masks can prevent the spread in cases where we can't socially distance, and some of those cases are going to be workplaces, and they're going

to be schools and as well as hospitals. You think about workers within a hospital setting. We haven't seen the extremely high numbers of infected medical personnel as of late that we saw back in early March. So we know that protective equipment does work, and that's what we're going to need to be able to get people back to

work in inside settings. You know, Tom, The reason why I asked this is because I was out and about in the city over the weekend and there are tons of people outside and they're eating at restaurants and they're not exactly socially distanced, And yet we haven't really seen the upsurge in cases, and some people are questioning whether this is herd immunity. Some people are saying, well, there just isn't the same sort of transmissionary outside. Still a

question tomes Lisa. But to your point in folks, I was a guest of the New York Islanders this weekend, so so sort of the social life that Lisa lives that I don't live in my sequestion. Then, But Lisa, what's so important. I want you to go to Dr Carnathon on this, Lisa. What is so important here is if we're socializing like that on the street, why can't we socialize like that at the office? Well? And and Dr Carnathon have we seen I mean to Tom's point, is it's safe to be less than six ft apart

without a mask when you're outside? And is it possible that if you are six feet in the office you're fine? Me six feet was a number that was generated based on a few experiments and based on evidence suggesting an appropriate distance. We know for sure that these respiratory droplets

can travel further than six ft. You know, when we think about setting such as the choir, the outbreaks that happened in Washington State around a choir practice, or when you're shouting or exercising and breathing heavily, six ft isn't going to be sufficient. Whether it's going to be sufficient for eating indoors, that's not entirely clear. I know that I wouldn't roll the dice on that in an indoor setting.

And similarly, workplaces are very different. It's very different if you have a private office than if you're working in a cubicle or other shared space. Dr Karne thought, I want to switch gears here. We do this on Bloomberg Surveillance. Stay with us. And I'm not going to ask you cubs white socks. That would be too stressful, but because maybe okay, but not that stressful, not that stressful. But I do want to talk about what you have been doing.

You have been a leader in the framework, the mental framework of women to have a vision of a champion. That's a title from another book that you didn't write. Give us an update right now. And what you see in women's sports in framing women to be more intrinsically competitive. Yeah, you know, that's another favorite of mine as a former

athlete and raising young children, one of whom as a girl. Um, I think it's really critically important that we emphasize to women the importance of learning to compete, of not being afraid to beat someone else and being unapologetic about it. You know, the last thing you'd want would be a world leader or a CFO who feels shy or hesitant

about beating someone. And I think a lot of those lessons about competition are learned through sports, So I think it's critically important that girls get out there, they get on the field and they learn to compete. And for everyone sports isn't going to be their thing. But there are other competitive venues. Yeah, there's a debate, not a sport, but certainly competitive. They're the arts where you need to be your best and quite often you're going to be

ranked by subjective criteria. So having the competition, the competitive spirit, having the focus to be able to practice to be your best, I think that's critically important, especially for women. Dr Knne from Thank You so much, greatly appreciated. She is a professor at Northwestern University on the pandemic and on some of the social aspects of our path forward right now and this is gonna be a lot of fun.

Is Michael Dows, who's iconic at Wilson, And all you need to know is if it's a grass court, there's a certain ball, or a clay court like the French Open, a certain ball, and then there's hard court tennis and Wilson and Michael does have on that for over four decades. You use Wilson tennis balls, you do nothing else, and you believe in innovation. He was so good out at the United States Tennis Association dragged him pe pre pandemic over into their combine to keep tennis magic going, and

he's been given a pandemic. We're thrilled that Mr Dallas could join us with Miss Azararenka in the background screaming every third hit as well. Michael, congratulations on keeping it going. What have you learned from the other sports about what not to do if this us open? Well, not to take it lightly and Tom les and thanks for having me on the show today. And it is true. Victoria's back here hitting the way, so hopefully it's not too noisy.

But what we learned is we've got to take this serious and and never take anything for granted, and have great partnership and teamwork with the pro Tours, but more importantly the government right the federal government, the City of New York, in the State of government. There was a lot of moving parts and we had to pull all this together to assure a safe and healthy tournament. There are jump conditions for tennis. It's always been that kind

of sport. There was a guy named James Connors who had a Wilson to two thousand racket a few years ago and level the way the sport was played. Are you at a point of innovation now? Is tennis ready for a new jump condition of skill and speed? Oh? I think the game is completely evolved over the years. The amount of athleticism is incredible. But having said that, it's a sport for all. If you think about it, tennis is one of the few sports you can start when you're five or six years old and you can

play all the way into your eighties. We host tournaments from tenna nunners to eighty and over, so it's not only the greatest athletes in the world, but it's all people can play our sport. Micah, It's interesting when you think about tennis. You think of two people at opposite sides of the court, They're going to be naturally socially distanced.

What have some of the challenge has been for you to bring some of these tennis professionals, the legends of the world together at a time of the raging pandemic that you really hadn't thought about before. Yeah, it was a real lot of international cooperation and working with the

pro Tour. Did you think about it. We have players from over sixty countries, so the dynamics we had to work with are quite a bit different than the professional leagues here in the US, so we had to get collaboration from several governments in Europe not just get the athletes in, but to assure we can get him back to Europe after the tournament. And again we had to work with the City of New York and the State of New York to make sure our health protocols were

buttoned down and perfect to run this tournament. So, Mike, there's been a lot of controversy over crowd noise. Tom Keane has demonstrated his own version of crowd noise and in tennis it's polite clapping and things like that. Are you just gonna have it silent or are you going to engage in some sort of crowd environment that's manufactured. Personally, I'm a fan of crowd noise, so the more crowd

noise we have, the better. But for this year, obviously without fans on site, we've partnered with one of our partners, IBM, to come up with taking crowd noise from last year. They they run their AI magic to it and this year it's going to simulate the crowd noise from last year. So we think it's gonna be pretty unique versus some of what some of the other sports have done. At this point, Mike, how are you going to get America

back into tennis? You've got ms Azarenka of Belarus batting the ball around behind you, making a horrific racket, her hero Stefe, her hero Steffie Graph, etcetera, etcetera. But there's this crying need to get America re engaged in what is now an international sport. How do you do it? Butn't completely agree. More tennis is so important to us through to US tennis, we have to get it going. But what I'm excited about, in a strange way, the pandemic could be what Billy Jean King and Body Riggs

were for tennis in the seventies. The pandemic could be got and what. So we just got some statistics fact that tennis participation in the US for entry level players has doubled in the last three months. So if you think about it, when you were in quarantine, you didn't get any exercise, you didn't socialize with anyone, and you didn't have really a lot of intellecttion stimulation. As you go out to tennis courts, you can have all those benefits.

We saw mass merchant tennis racket sales for entry level tennis rack it's nearly double in the last three months, So we see tennis coming out of this potentially with a big boom again. Well, Mike, to that point, have you seen a pretty big financial hit from the lack of live games and in games that could be broadcast. Are you seeing actually a boom on the other side because of the ability to do this sport with some

social distancing. Yeah. I mean as far as the industry, it's coming back strong after being shut down for about sixty days, and as I mentioned, entry level tennis is where it's really taking up. Specific to the USC, it is a challenge this year without fans, our revenue or net income, I should say, it will be down about so it's it's a big hit for us this year.

But even with that, we've had some reserves. Fortunately in our lines of credit, we're able to continue and still offer pretty equivalent prize money to last year and keep the operation going. Michael, the only way we're gonna keep this going is next time instead of as a renk, I want John mckin rowing the background warming up and that will make it good. Mr Dallas is with the United States Tennis Association. Our chief executive officer and executive director, Michael,

thank you so much. Our next guests with a little shop that has been investing in tech media telecom names successfully for decades. Chris Maranghi, Gabelly Funds CO Chief investment Officer, joins us here. Chris, thanks so much for joining us once again. Let's start with some of those high flying tech names that have experienced something that we don't talk about too often, which is stock splits. We've had Apple, We've had Tesla split their stocks. You're a grizzled veteran

on the institutional money management side. Do you care about this stuff? Well, first of all, thank you for having me. That's great to be here. UM, so of course we care. Um. You know, stock splits don't impact the value of the company. They shouldn't impact the price of a company, but as

we're seeing with Apple this morning, they probably do. Behavioral economics, behavioral finance has been a very powerful force for as long as the markets have been trading, and um, for whatever reason, investors are putting a higher price on on Apple this morning, even though the fundamentals really haven't changed. All Right, so you at the good folks at Gabelly, you've been in these tech names, these media names, these telecom names for since the beginning here, and they've been

the real drivers of the market here. How do you feel about some of these names, the fag plus names here. Had they gotten out over their skis or are the fundamentals still they're supporting these names? Well, these were unquestionally great companies, strong cash flow, wide modes, all the kind of things that we as value investors and people seeking

quality would look for. But yes, the prices obviously have gone parabolic um in some cases um over the last several months, and they probably have gotten out under their skis. Apple at a mirror one trillion dollar valuation, you could probably justify kind of twenty times twelve times free cash flow UM. At two trillion, I think it's harder to do. It's still a wonderful company, but I think investors are discounting most of the upside that's left in that stock

at this point. Are we going to see more stock splits? I mean, as like lemons off a cliff, somebody goes, hey, they did it, we gotta do it? Is that how it works? It generally does, although you know you're probably not going to see them from something you like Brokeshire Hathaway. I think what you're going to see, potentially depending on what happens with the election, are more special dividends. I think that's something that you'll see this wall. We saw

that in the last Well describe that to it. That's that's that's a mass. I mean, good Belly wouldn't say that. Maringue, he would say that, Paul. But what's a special dividend? Is it special? It is? And we've seen a few of them. Um, Liberty is Liberty Media, John Malone's company. John is a very tax sufficient investor, perhaps the most taxes sensitive other than Warren Buffett. And you know this would be an effort to distribute cash to shareholders at

more favorable rates. Um, with the assumption that all kinds of tax rates are going up next year. Chris, how what do you guys? How are you guys thinking about the markets right here? Where do you see value here? We've had again that the dramatic pullback in March and April of the markets as a pandemic really shocked the market. And then thanks to the Federal Reserve and some other moves. We've had a sharp, sharp rebound of the market back to or near all time highs. Where do you guys

see value right now? Yeah, so we're seeing value really in the in the smaller end of the market. Um, it's where we tend to concentrate, have concentrated over many decades. And you know, you've got the Russell two thousand value which reflects the smaller stocks still down fift and the quarter of the stocks are down. So you know, a lot of the stocks and that index is not rebounded, um. And you know, depending on the trajectory of economic recovery. Um,

they're bargains. Their bargains today, they're based on our outlook. You know, I look, Chris at what Mr Buffet has done here, and it hearkens back without even a legitimate comparison to the huge conglomerates of another time in place. And maybe that was American companies trying to be like the Japanese. You look on the surface, dollar converted, the dividends are ample, The dividend growth is certainly there for some of these Japanese companies, and they've got remarkable free

cash flow. Because I was thunderstruck at how low the capex was of these hugely established things. Does that attract a vailue guy like you? It certainly has. Japan unfortunately has been a bit of a value trap exactly. Um. And you know, we thought ebonomics would change things, and it has gradually changed things, although at a Japanese pace

which sends to be very slow. So yeah, I think this is a This is this investment by perture Hathaway in these Japanese training companies is a significant event for a number of reasons, including perhaps it's a signal that and perhaps a catalyst itself that things might change in the Japanese corporate market. I mean, Paul, I am I'm looking at about to fall off my chair. How about a five point three three percent yield? Let me go,

let am I in? Yeah, I guess I'm in dollar equivalency five point three three percent yield, five year, thirteen percent dividend growth in playing eighties, six thousand people. And the pe is when Marangue was in his ute. I mean, the it's a nine and based off I guess some ugly growth, it's a sixteen. That's an outrageous valuation, Paul, it is, and I think that's rich the things that attracted Mr Buffett as a value investor. So, Chris, I know you and and and Mary have been uh invested

all across the media space for decades. What's your view of media today? Um? Is there a It just seems like it's never been more uncertain given the last four or five six months as consumer behaviors change. How do you kind of view some of the traditional media verticals. Yeah, so, you know, we split the market as many due between distribution and content, and obviously the distribution side has done

quite well. Those are the cable companies erstwhile cable companies now known as broadband infrastructure companies, and their future I think is as bright as ever. We've proven how important broadband is to the household, and they have enormous pricing power. Uh. In that, the question comes in on the content companies and um, you know, obviously the old way of doing business,

the old Hollywood machine is changed and probably changed forever. UM. A lot of the content companies that grew around the growth of cable distribution, the viacoms and A M C s UH and Discoveries of the world, have some significant challenges that have gotten worse during this crisis, secular challenges, cord cutting popular than known, and that's not going to change. But they're trying to change themselves and they're they're going to get there. The question is what do you want

to pay for that on a risk adjusted basis? And some of those companies I think remain attractive given given where they trade. Christy, you, I mean, this is a question I asked Paul, but instead I'm gonna ask you, Chris Marangy. If you bring in a dollar of streaming monthly income, what are the income statement margins on that? Like? Do they do they bring down to the middle line? I mean, is it that profitable? Well, at the moment,

it's not. It's not. These are generally subscale businesses. The way the old media model was probably the profit maximizing model. That is, you've got monthly recurring revenue, it's paid to you by the cable company, and then you've got money from advertising. Um In most of the streaming models, not all. Peacock, which is contast model, is an advertising base model, but

most of them are to exclude advertising. So you've excluded somebody very revenue stream and you're expecting consumers to pay a premium in effect for at content and at the moment um, you know, at six at six seven dollars, things like Disney Plus are not are not particularly profitable, and the question is can they raise prices Netflix did and become more profitable over time, and they probably can, but again that is a there's a multi year process.

I mean, Paul, I just don't get it. I mean, I'm looking at my TV and folks, I'm like the biggest amateur of this anybody out there, I mean, you know, I you know, you're paying everybody, you know. I just thought it was like talking about Mandalorian, which is old news. I guess I didn't even know about Baby Yoda, you know.

But but does anybody make money at this Paul Sweeney, Well, I think we're starting to see in the US, and Chris knows, well, Uh, the US for Netflix is profitable and uh, you know, but the problem for a lot of these other issues is, as Chris mentioned, their subscale. Uh, and so the revenue is not there to pay for this huge programming bill that they have, so right now the answer is no. Hopefully they can scale into it.

And Chris Tom asked me a question just just a few minutes ago about the few ture of movie theaters. Are we ever going to go back to the movie theaters? Were starting to see some states open up their movie theaters, and I'm just not sure about the future of people going back to the theaters now that they've spent five, six, seven months in their homes and they've got all these

streaming services. Yeah, for somebody like me with a big family, UM, it's certainly a lot more cost effective to stay home and Netflix. Um. But yeah, you know the experience of going out to a theater, going to dinner, and that I think it's still valuable and people are gonna go back to the theaters when this is over, but it's

certainly probably a lower um, lower attendance. And obviously the exhibition companies have a lot of debt themselves, so they've got to work through some of their issues as we go along. Very good, uh, Christopher, and thank you so much, greatly appreciate that their optimism from Cabelly looking at the markets. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast

platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter, at Tom Keane before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio.