This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best an economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App.
Joining us now is someone that makes you lean forward.
It is a multi asset strategy, but mostly his senior vice president courage to stay in the market at the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, Max Kapner darkets the London door today.
What is your new outlook? What is the.
Nuance of the last few weeks as you look forward into twenty twenty four?
Yeah?
Thanks, Some of the news is you've gus we'll talk about already right as oil prices, energy prices, perhaps that changes a little bit of the narrative, right paps Inflation does pick up a bit more in the US right towards Q four, So that's not particularly great news for a Goldilock scenario. I think the nuances is also going
into Q four, what can destroy that goldilocks picture? Because we're all talking about all these horrible things, right, like, you know, things like student loan repayments and are we hitting you know, are we hitting recession and all these things, and then we look at high yield spreads and they just going towards three fifty and yeah, it's for everyone, right, great, So I think the nuances are sort of trying to find out when is what what could potentially break all this?
Right?
What could potentially break that that sort of goldilocks?
And it's ninety five dollar crude. It's you don't think that a breakfast.
I don't think it's one nuance. I think it's one of those where to be fair, if I was the fair, if I was the SEBIA or the Bank of England, which you know, lucky for everyone that I'm not, but you know, if I were, I'd be basically saying, well, what should I do about that?
Right?
What can I do about I mean, I'm not an oil producer, so I can't really do anything, and I can sort of use it as saying, look, this is just energy prices. It's something transitory. It will be going away out of the calculation. When a couple of months, don't worry, right all the other rests, you know, excluding fifteen components from our preferred inflation baskets, then everything looks fine.
So I think that's the worry that I have, right that if we start looking at these inflation baskets that sort of exclude everything that we need for the everyday life,
that they is starting to pack up again. And to be fair, if you look at things like super core inflation, right, the action components, the broad based nature of it hasn't really dramatically changed over the last twelve eighteen months, So that is perhaps something towards Q four where perhaps inflation does pick up beyond just energy prices, not a new
inflation wave, but basically an interruption from that. Okay, inflation has gone down in one straight line now to actually now we're getting sort of this bumpy bumpy road ahead, right an inflation Well, we've got to play those turning points in it.
Max.
The question everyone wants us to ask. Still in a window where you think equities can do well, oh yeah, one hundred percent, until when how big is that win?
Look to be perfectly honest, if we think about it, and I know it sounds stupid, but imagine if yields go up, imagine the tenure goes to four and a half. What's the reality of the reality is it's probably going to do it because growth is better, right, and because once again growth expectations actually turn out to be too pessimistic. Right. If you look at Q four US growth expectations, it's sort of the Q one next year is also close to zero, so the bar to be just relatively low.
So if you get yields moving higher, that's probably in response to growth doing better, So you buy equities. If yields go down, right, then probably rates of all goes down, and then you buy the nastak so to be fair, Yeah, great, I'll just buy equities.
Can big tech still lead though? And we've seen a recent kind of weakening in the tech profile and an underperformance there. Some people are saying this is the beginning of the end of the tech trade? Are you on that train?
Well, we've heard that for I think sixteen years, fifteen years, so you know, it's been a lot of beginnings of the end. Now, look, I don't know, I want to be too cynical for it, but.
Last year was pretty brutal for the text, right, just be clear.
So, but to be perfect, you're honest, I think TEX still has a bit of a room to go. In the next couple of weeks. There is probably a window around Q four where I'd been moving more towards really the value side of things, right, tactically, right, if we get that bump and inflation, particularly in the US, even higher, you know, you want to probably prefer then for a couple of months, things like bands energy over tech. But for now, I think energy still has or text still has a way to go.
You mentioned all of the dark clouds, including people repaying their debts, and also this question around a government shutdown, which seems like an increasing inevitability in the US amid this backdrop of strikes. In a question of just general just discsatisfaction, which of those kinds of things do you care most about could actually have the most impact on your call.
Look, I think the government shot down not really right, because we kind of got used to every other quarter. So from an equity perspective, you know, I know it sounds depressing, but if for hous right, it was a shock twelve years ago, it's not particularly a shock anymore.
Right.
So from an equity perspective, from a risk acid perspective, that's not the main worry. The student loan repayments also not particularly worried about it, because you can also make a positive spin out of right. Right. You can also say, look, actually, from the end of July up until now, repayments have shot higher because actually economic agents I eat, normal people like us, they're acting completely rationally, right, They're seeing that, Okay,
this is starting to kick in. So instead of starting to or having to start to actually pay interest on it again, I'm going to repay it early and guess what, I have the money, so let me repay as much as I can. So actually, you can also make a positive spin out of it, right and say, look, people apparently still have the money to do that, right, They still have sufficient money to do these pretty chunky repayments early. So all of that doesn't really really keep me that much.
Quick questionaire, can you figme out SPX five thousand? I gotta make some news today. I got to justify the trip to London. Can you give me five thousand SPX?
I think you know, if we think about next year, to be fair, it's not an awful lot of weight, right, it's twelve twelve percent awaight, Right, but if we're still in a fairly high ish inflation environment, right, and earnings growth is still relatively fine. Yeah.
When Old Quinn's all longer today, he's doing something with the United Nations. I'm not sure what it is. Nold Quinn listens to Max Katner. HSBC is a prism to Asia like.
No one else.
I personally witnessed it across that little Hong Kong trolley in Asia. How do you link China trauma, in particularly domestic trauma into all the toxic.
Brew of gloom in the West.
How do you link Hong Kong and Shanghai over to London in New York.
Look, I think what's what's very clear with regards to Europe and with regards to China and now a little bit less in the US is like you've said, there's all this doom and gloom, right, there's all these expectations around doom and gloom. I don't think you guys have had any guests on probably for weeks who are saying, look, you know what, twenty twenty three has been better than expected. We were a bitter wrong right on Europe and in the US. But guess what, twenty twenty four is going
to be even better? Right, So I can't I just genuinely cannot see how we're gonna get, you know, start to think about twenty twenty four, how we're actually going to see twenty twenty four. It looks where people say, look, you know what, China's going to do great, Europe's gonna be even better, and US is going to shoot the lighter. I just cannot see anyone doing that.
So do you want to take the other side of that?
I want to take that side, yeah, because knowing the thing is right, So you're giving us a twenty four call right now? No, Look, the one thing that I am not asked at all about and for months is what could actually go right? What can guy right actually
in the next six twelve months three? What's actually one thing where we could be saying, hey, you know what, maybe I'm asking So the answer, the answer to me is, as long as we still have these really low growth expectations, you have a low bar to be and you keep rolling goldilocks and goldilocks and goldilocks, and.
It's great goldilocks forever into twenty four yeah, okay.
I think it is a lonely car. I mean, we're but it's a really I'm.
Wrong, cool charter to you bank, Max Curtener, HSBC. There's a couple others out there.
You know, Max has been right. I think we should put that out there first. You've been right all year.
Max.
We'll see about twenty twenty four. That's quite cool. Max Kenada of HSBC. Joining us now is Ed j R. Denny, President of the Danny Research Ed wonderful to have you with us on the show We call it with Max Kettener of HSBC in the previous hour, and he said we need to focus on what could go right in twenty two twenty four? Are you more focused on what could go right or what could go wrong?
My view of twenty twenty four is that that could be a better year than certainly twenty twenty two was, or even twenty twenty three. Not that twenty twenty three is turning out to be a very bad year. As we know, the third quarter is turning out to be remarkably strong. So all in all, I think that we'll get through a lot of these challenges and twenty twenty four should be a better year for earnings with the market doing better too.
Danny, you and real Franko for have been way out front of this on the October rally, and we've talked about a second leg of a bullmarkt As John mentions, mister Cuttner of HSBC shares your enthusiasm. The arch pullback of this is the great moderation over? Is the great moderation over? And does that mean you can't make money in stocks?
Well, I've been really debating in my commentaries about whether it's going to be the Great Inflation of the nineteen seventies or it might very well turn out to be the Roaring twenty twenties. And I've been inclined to believe that on a longer term basis, we will see that the twenty twenties will be a period of tremendous progress
and productivity. And I was making that point before the pandemic, and the pandemic sort of gotten the way because it really messed up the productivity story big time as people quit left and right. But I think we're making a comeback. I think productivity bottom actually in twenty and twenty fifteen in terms of its growth rate, it was only zero
point five percent on a twenty quarter trailing basis. I think it's going up to four percent by the end of the decade, which sounds delusional, sounds for our fetched, I'll admit, but those are the kind of peaks we've had in previous growth cycles in productivity, and I think that's where we're heading.
Does a real rate, and some would say a higher real rate and an inflation adjusted rate, does that impinge on your enthusiasm?
Not really. I think we're going back to normal.
The new abnormal was the period between the Great Financial Crisis and the Great Virus Crisis, and back then interest rates were at record lows. I think we're going back to the environment just prior to the Great Financial Crisis, where the tip shield was around two percent for the ten uere and the inflation premium was around two to two and a half percent. So four to four and a half percent is kind of where the bond yield should be in a return to the old normal, and
I think that's what we're doing. I think the economy and the stock market have already demonstrated that they can both live with these kind of levels of interest rates.
So you and Max Kettner seemed to be on the same page, and Max came on the show early and said, you guys all worry too much. No one asks me what can go right, how good things can be, and as they should be asking. But it is my job to worry.
That is true what I do.
So I'm curious, from your vantage point, where does oil fit into this at a time where it's risen thirty percent since June.
Yeah, well, I didn't expect it. I don't think anybody really expected it. I think the widespread perception was, oh, yeah, yeah, the Saudi's are going to cut production, and the Russians of cut production. But China's week, Europe's week, the US is sort of muddling along. And that means that oil prices aren't going to go up as the Saudis would like.
But they've been right so far.
And so that's a new variable that I've had to incorporate into my thinking. And so just recently the past few days, I just to demonstrate that I am realistic and I'm looking at the world.
As it is, not as I'd like it to be.
I did raise my outlook for a recession risk from fifteen percent to twenty five percent and unfortunately there is a certain the sense of dejav all over again. We had two oil spikes back in the nineteen seventies. So far, the first oil spike we had last year hasn't caused a recession and hasn't been anywhere near but we had back in the seventies, and I don't think this one's going to be.
A major oil spike either.
I think we are going to find that the demand responds pretty quickly to these price hikes and it slows down and oil prices come back down, not dramatically, but at least they stop going up.
What's the break point in terms of when prices of oil really do create a serious headwind and increase the chance of recession.
Well, I think they're already starting to impact demand. You know, it's clearly getting a tremendous amount of visibility in the press, and of course, the price of gasoline is the most visible price of them all. We all go driving around filling up our tanks, and everybody's seeing that the price of oil gasoline is going up dramatically.
So I think we're at the point where.
It doesn't cause a recession, but it causes some demand destruction. For gasoline and for other energy products, and that being
the case, that could bring the price back down. I don't think it's going to cause a recession, but I think, you know, if we sustainably, if we see at the price of oil staates sustainably at one hundred, one hundred and ten dollars a barrel, in the price of gasoline four and a half to five dollars a gallon, I think that could certainly risk a much greater slowdown on the economy than I've been thinking.
Certainly going to case some paine at Danny, thank you if any race.
She is Jane Foley of Robbo Bank, and the heritage of Robbo Bank is commodities in the foreign exchange, and Jane Foley, I want to look out three years and five years to the climate change effect, Sugar to the moon, cocoa to the moon, a few other things, even cattles up and up here as well. How is the Rabobank world going to change with climate change and what appear to be surging commodity prices.
It's going to be tough now. Of course, in the short term, we don't necessarily have surging food prices because prices were high last year there was lots of planting. But I think we can all agree that over the longer term, you have climate issues. You have issues that could create inflationary surprises in the form of food prices over the next few years. And it was at the supply so, I mean, look what's happened in the Panama Canal. You know, shortages of water, restrictions on shipping that can
go through impacts to the supply chain. So we know that climate change can bring us inflationary shucks. We know that it can have a detrimental impact on growth. We know that it could potentially make interest rates higher. So the environment that that suggests is not particularly.
This is critical, and that all the focus in the financial media is how to make a speculative return on euro, yen or whatever. And there's a whole other world out there of hedging commodity transactions.
Okay, so interesting question chain for you. Climate can lead to inflationary outcomes. Can the policy changes to address climate change also lead to inflationary outcomes? Is this lose lose on the front.
You know, I think this is a really really interesting question because we have so many elections next year. So next year I saw a statistic recently that said countries with a collective population of four billions, that's over half the world's population go to the polls next year. So we've got the US, we've got the EU, we've got India,
we've got Russia, we've got Mexico and various other countries. Now, amongst those issues that people are going to be talking about is of course the impact of climate change, but also the green transition. And what we've been seen is people, because of the cost of living, because of the energy crisis, because of you know, the impact of inflation, are losing patients with the politician that the push towards the green transition.
And we're really seeing this in Europe. Support for so the Germany's Green Party really gone down, support for the far right really gone out. And this is fairly uniform because people are saying, we can't afford to lose our jobs because of the green transition, because in Germany, for instance, lots of jobs in the supply chain for car manufacturers will go and people are saying, you know, we can't
afford to buy these electric cars. We cannot afford necessarily the green transition, and that's a real problem.
How do you price that into a foreign exchange car. I mean, and had to be too base here, but there's really a question of who's doing the best job in counteracting some of the inflationary forces in this swirling brew of uncertainty of how you're going to deal with this. I mean, this is what we're dealing with the UAW and the US.
In some respects.
I think the answer is quite easy, because when you are really confused, when you don't know what's going on, people tend to buy the dollar. It is that you know that the safe haven. And I think for an awful lot of these political challenges, they're going to be
felt on both sides of the Atlantic. But I think it's a Euro that will feel the impact of these political crisis a lot more relative to the dollar, because the dollar, of course is the currency of the global payment system, and people need dollars in terms of crisis, and therefore the dollar in a way gets protected even its own fundamentals look a little bit questionable.
And we've seen this dollar strength and it really has upended a lot of people who thought that the ECB would do way more and that the Euro would gain against the dollar, possibly even being in a better situation next year than the US. How much do you think the dollar has to run here if you do see this uncertainty pushing people toward the world's currency and you also see a stronger than expected outcome in the economy.
There, yeah, well you have it. You have this much more resilience in the US economy. You have Germany in recession. You have the ECB bringing down its grawthfuecasts for the Eurozone last week, and in fact they still look optimistic compared with our forecast for next year. So you have all of these issues. You've got the e elections in June. You're going to have to see concessions made towards the
far right. And when I say the far right, there is a little bit of a difference here because many of these what we would say far right in Europe. Yes they might be anti immigration, yes they may be really nationalistic when it comes to cultural concerns, but actually they have often little left wing tendencies in their fiscal policy. So then you get concerns about the debt out. You've got German, sorry, Italy and Spain's debt rising already through
some of the parameters that the EU would prefer. Does that mean there's going to be a debt crisis? Well no, But does it mean to say that people are going to start wondering about the debt and being concerned about that debt?
Well yes.
So I think there's lots of economic factors really facing the Eurozone in the next you know, which are going to come to the fore in the next twelve months, and I think the euro is going to be in the backfoot a.
Great pace on the Italian budget coming up very soon in the Financial Times this morning worth a read if you can get hold of a paper or the online edition. Bradmo, I think I've said it a million times already over the last two days since we've been here. Europe. What a tough spot for the Europeans soun pretty much every single topic we're talking about right now, including.
This one, and this to me is really going to be a question going forward of how you unify a place with all of these very idiosyncratic stories, including in Italy.
Twenty seconds, what's your ural call? Then let's go from high minded climate analysis three years, give me a euro call us six months.
We need to revise it because our forecast for now was one of six and we're nearly there. So you know, I haven't got around.
To our last year.
I would say parity next year will be being talked about.
Thank you here, Jane Filey back to parents. It's tradable, Jane Fully of Rather Bank.
We follow under.
Other central bank discussions, Simon French Chief economist Palmer Gordon has been just wonderful with his experience in the British government of framing out a governor of the Bank of England who said, well, we're not going to declare victory.
And boys the news come down the pipeline.
Since since Bailey said that what are the ramifications of higher interest rates in the United States?
In the United Kingdom, we think there's about sixty percent of the five hundred and fifteen basis points delivered by the Bank of England still to crystallize, principally for household sector in the UK. And that lagged defect is an elongated lag from previous economic cycles where the structure of the UK housing market, secured debt market was very different.
And that is why I think Andrew Bailey has a really difficult task on his hands later in the week, because all the indicators I'm seeing is with that long lead in time and the majority the impulse still to come, we're seeing quite a rapid slow down in payroll wage inflation. We're seeing a slow down in core inflation. With the eighteen month two year lag whatever frame, we think it'll peak around Q four, twenty twenty four. In terms of
the tightening of financial conditions of the households. He knows that he sees the inflation picture coming down, and yet he's allowed market to guide the policy expectations rather than lead them.
The Durham you were steeped in the economic history of all this. How close is the United Kingdom Bailey analog to the United States Powell analog? How separate are those discussions?
I think they're really separate, actually, And I think last time I was on the show, I talked about the biggest decoupling of the policy environment in Europe from the United States. But it's not just the pathway, it's also the management of market expectations.
Here.
We've had some speeches from the MPC, the Munty Policy Committee, from the Chief economist que Pill in South Africa about ten days ago talking about a potential plateau, but the market basically didn't believe that and sees the likelihod of a twenty five base AP pointed eighty percent. As I
left my terminal earlier. That is not where the Bank of England wants to be if it's going to carve out a narrative base on the latest data points, which is still quite a rapid sharpening of economic momentum and also price setting behavior in the UK.
I won't allow the point you're making to get lost. This is so important. I landed here over the weekend. I read the recent communication from the Bank of England. Then I looked at all the economics economists expectations and they were saying hike, and the Bank of England was basically saying we're not hiking. And I couldn't make sense of it. Are you saying the threat needle straight as a massive credibility problem at the moment and basically the markets are in charge?
Yes, I am. I think they're getting the wrong sort of criticism. They're getting criticism for being too slow in terms of take off from the policy path. But actually they moved earlier than the FED, they moved earlier than the ECB. Actually it has been the communications through this cycle part of it's been quite cumbersome in terms of, you know, getting into the wage bard beginning negotiation, the
profit margin negotiation with corporates, with the household sector. That's not the role as I see it, of central banks. Central banks, if you see a dislocation between the way the market is pricing your optimal path monetary policy for financial conditions, you intervene and it can be quite close to a policy meeting, which is to Tom's question about the decoupling between the Bailey led Bank of England and
the FED. The Power led Fed, they've been reactive, not proactive in terms of managing expectations for this meeting, and it's been a regular pattern, unfortunately over the last eighteen months.
So even though you don't think they should, do you think they will hike on Thursday.
It's difficult, isn't it. I remember very clear that my reading of the data, and look, I don't want to sit here and pretend that you know, I have a better reading than the nine members of the Mounted Policy Committee, but I do think that the market has allowed itself to get expectations of a RATAG that I think the Managing Policy Committee probably look at the latest and the most timely indicator of core inflation and wages, which they set out their August Manety Policy Report with their key
data points. Those have slowed in July, those have slowed in August. That's the new data that's come into the marketplace. Taking account of that, there's time. There's only six weeks till the next policy meeting when they'll have a new set of economic forecasts. You can pause that one out. You can say we're aligning ourselves with the potential pause in the US and in the Eurozone and not be an outlier. You don't want to be a monetary policy outlier in the UK.
There is a question though, about a reacceleration inflation, especially on the heels of oil prices that have been climbing. We just got news from Canada that inflation came in at four percent year over year in August versus a three point eight percent estimate. We have seen this again
and again. What's to say that there isn't something underpinning those inflation figures that will reaccelerate that does warrant what we heard from Jennifer McEwan, which is a fifty basis point rate hike at Thursday's meeting.
You speak to exactly why in extra six weeks is most valuable, because those oil price assumptions were seeing similar turbulence in soft commodity markets are leading indicator of food
price inflation. The bank having redes its forecasts in the first week of November, in fact it does it in late October, it will have at its disposal for the MPC the type of impulse that will come through from those higher prices in terms of headline inflation and the potential second order effects in terms of core price setting. Why would you not give yourself the optionality of an extra six weeks to appraise those leading indicators but also model the impact of those core inputs.
If what you said earlier, though, is true that this is a central bank that has lost credibility and lost the plot, then wouldn't you see a pound that just weakens dramatically if they were to do that, if they were to pause, even in the face of people saying you need to hike, and you need to hike more aggressively.
But my reading of the way people are trading sterling, it's not based on a spread of central bank policy rates. It's spread of credibility. If you do a credible pause, you enhance your credibility. I'd expect Sterling to strengthen against its major pairs. Against that backdrop, if you deliver a message that says, we understand how this economy is evolving. We're in front of the data. We're guiding the market rather than being reactive to each each bit of pricing that they're seeing.
We've got a bunch of thugs asking questions at your own power here tomorrow?
What question would you ask your own power?
Well, I'd be fascinated to see what themc come out in terms of long term our star. I think for me that's the key data point in the summary of economic projections we get. Do they believe it's still in that two and a half to three and a half percent range? Given all the way out to two years
we're seeing potential FED funds raided north of five. Have we reached a situation where actually the FMC have got to throw in the towel in terms of long and the repricing that that would have across equity markets, fixed income markets.
That's WoT do you think they're ready to do that?
Ask the question you might get you might be surprised by their propensity.
Just didn't seem wanted to go there in Jackson hole in the speech, he's.
The skill of the Bloomberg team better yes than I am.
Williams will go there? The New York Fed President. What's the guy that you would take from a man like that on where this might be going?
Uh influence. So the degree with which a debate you're right almost certainly, you know j Power is far too good an operator to to even get tempted into that debate. The degree to which other members of the f MC can start to frame that debate and say, actually, part of and we've seen financial conditions loosened quite appreciably in
the US economy. Part of keeper yeah, part of keeping those elevated actually is to have that debate in public such the markets can understand what that pathway is for long term master in the economy, because at the moment, the summary of economic projections do not tell you that story.
Lazayne Sanders was brilliant on this yesterday, John looking at the Bloomberg financial conditions as next it's screaming accommodation right now.
This speaks to a phrase that Lisa used reacceleration, and I think we're talking about the UK at the time in that conversation, and that part of this conversation the prospect of reacceleration in the US. Something that we've heard a few times from various guests is this current disinflationary trend is transitory? Would you go that far?
All the dangers of using that word. Look, there is no doubt. I mean, if we're talking in the context of the US economy, the oil price is more significant. Actually domestically in the UK, the gas price is more significant, which hasn't taken place and hasn't moved up in the
same way. Would I Look, central banks have carved out in the last six to nine months of focus on core inflation, and therefore are we now going to sort of pivot back to focusing on headline inflation and give them the impulse seems to be through the oil and commodity markets. It's going to be the first order impact and pushing headline it means like you it feels like you're moving the target every single time the data doesn't conform to your narrative. That's a very we're talking about
credibility to about the credibility of central banks. You've got to be consistent through the cycle, not just to fit your narrative.
If I could put you in a press conference right and now, it wouldn't be the FEDS, it would be the next Bank of England. Yeah, decision in a couple of months time. That decision is it November? The November one with the news conference that is going to be what are those forecasts going to look like for inflation?
Do you think?
Well?
In terms of that, this is why it's the opportunity to talk about how the relevance of gas, wholesale gas in the UK economy being the more relevant one. Actually, I suspect the expectations for inflation will actually be lower for twenty twenty four that we saw last week from the ECB. Remember what spooked the markets in terms of a north of three percent inflation print in the Eurozone in twenty twenty four we go from the OECD to
day two point nine percent in the UK. I think the bank will back into that forecast, a sub three percent forecast for CPI because of the relevance of gas, which on the two year curve is about eighty percent lower than it was in the summer of twenty twenty two, when UK macro became the front page story. We had Yellen talking about it. We told Larry Summers talking about it because the mini budget. But it was not just
the mini budget. It was the dislocation of gas prices and how impact that is on reel incomes in the UK.
You're talking natural gas, natural gas. In America we would say petrol.
I mean petrol.
We confuse that we see gasoline.
And I allow you to translate my narrative, Tom and keep up with In London, I did the.
Leader of Gas two hours ago.
We were talking about where does it hurt in the United Kingdom, like where will it actually affect Bank of England There it is John seven fifty two dollars per lease.
So I also company, I spell leader. It's the one year anniversary of the mini budget, isn't it? It's Saturday? It is Simon, thank you. Always a pleasure. I always learned something Simon French. There of panroa Ordan.
Subscribe to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live every weekday starting at seven am Easter. I'm Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app tune In.
And the Bloomberg Business app.
You can watch us live on Bloomberg Television and always I'm the Bloomberg Terminal.
Thanks for listening.
I'm Tom Keen, and this is Bloomberg