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Joining us Michael Mullen.
He will always be Adam Mullin's seventeenth Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and someone that pioneered all sorts of transition in a Pentagon. This will be a good, lengthy conversation and we're privileged by that today. How did you find Lloyd Austin, the former Secretary of Defense? You brought him up through the ranks. How did you find someone like Lloyd Austin? Process?
He was a three star when I met him, so he'd already along.
With the ranks at that point.
But actually he was the ground commander in Iraq when I was Chairman on a visit, and I would go into theater about once every quarter, and that's where I met him and spent the better part of a day in an evening with him, and of all of the ground commanders that I had run into, I just found him to have a more comprehensive view of ground, the ground warfare, and the requirements and the execution all the way from northern Iraq down to.
Basra, southern Iraq.
And when I returned to Washington, I good friend of mine was the chief of Staff of the Army, George Casey. And I asked Casey, I said, is Austin on your list? And he said no. I said, put him.
On the list.
And that was a command.
And to give George credit, he did.
And then I but then I brought him in to work for me Lloyd, because one thing to sort of spend a day and understand that. But and so he was the senior officer three star on the Joint Staff, the director of the Joint.
Staff, and he was extraordinary there. And then obviously from there.
Erymull and I've got to ask a question, I'd say to other friends of surveillance. I think of General Kimmitt, General Ben Hodges, obviously Stravet assistant. So much for us and for the nation, is well the state of our Pentagon today? What can you report about our officers and gentlemen and gentlewomen.
I should well, is a what's the state appen It's a time of great change. Obviously there's a there is a with a new administration and a new secretary, you know, a significant change in focus. I still think it's relatively early days. I think with that kind of change there there comes a great deal of uncertainty. There certainly has been concern with a number of officers who have senior officers who've been either retired or retired on their own volition,
or have actually been fired. And the uncertainty that comes with that is something that's that's I would say normal, not that the firings are, but normal and you know, where do we go from here kind of thing. It's very clear, and I think the operations there are recent strike operations in the Caribbean or an example that there is there is more of a local focus in terms
of the capability. I mean when I was there, and it's been a while now, but this was the most extraordinary military in the history of the world.
It still is.
But I would say more than anything else right now, there's just a lot of uncertainty about about where we're headed.
So that probably starts from the very top with this president. This president seemed to be making America great again. America first, that suggests that perhaps the US is or will be or has withdrawn from some of its commitments. How do you view our commitments to Natar, commitments to our friends around the world, our allies, our historic allies around the world.
I'd almost reverse the question in terms of those we have been committed to. How do they see us in the future, And it's the same, I'd answer it with the same word. There's a lot of uncertainty about our commitments, a lot of uncertainty about where we're headed. I think clearly there is a or there will be. It looks like,
you know, a significant reduction in those commitments around the world. Listen, when I was chairman, I was one, and I spent a lot of time in NATO, and I was one of those individuals that argued strongly for significantly increasing the commitments of our NATO partners, and they didn't do that. You know, I'd give President Trump a lot of credit.
He clearly has their attention. They clearly are committed at a time also where particularly in Europe, you know, it's quote unquote war on the continent, which we've feared for decades.
Let's go there right now.
We'll with us Michael Mullen with us an extended conversation here at the Bloomberg Global Forum. Paul Smenia and Tom Keen across this nation, across Canada, thank you for listening. Good Morning ninety nine one FM at the Pentagon in Washington, and good Morning on YouTube across the nation.
Paul Admiral talk to us about how you think we should What do you think the policy should be as a relates to Ukraine. I mean, it seems like an intractable situation there, but the policy seems to be shifting almost on a daily basis here and I guess that's more uncertainty for all those involved as well.
Yeah, I mean the way I've looked at this, and this is really since the Ukraine, since Putin invaded. I think Putin's the most dangerous guy on the planet. Have thought that for a long time. He has actually overseen a Russian resurgence that many of us thought could not take place. And my friends in Europe in particular consider this an existential threat because it's not just going to stop with Ukraine. Putin isn't going to stop with Ukraine.
My friends historically and the Baltics that are always nervous on the best day, on their best day, they were nervous that Russia would soon be coming their way, in addition to some of the larger countries like Poland for example, So there's huge concern over there, and I think it's a you know, we're at a really important inflection point about are we going to support our European friends and in particular Ukraine, or are we going to let Putin
march on? And I think he without the US, he will continue to march on.
Edroll I would suggest.
I mentioned this yesterday with Jen's Nordvigan, who's expert on foreign exchange. He's from Copenhagen in Denmark, and I informed that that I think most Americans would know the Baltic Sea if you know, they got a map out, including the President of the United States. If you were back running a gasoline tanker the USS Naxibi. Did I pronounce it right? Would you take it into the Baltic Sea right now?
Yeah, I'd be comfortable with that.
What is our of about a sea we don't even know about, other than it's somewhere near a good dinner in Coconhata.
Well, there's a lot of people actually in the military and certainly the Navy that we know a lot about, but Americans still understand that. And I think back to the challenge in Europe. There's no better indication of the response, the fear and the response than Finland and Sweden literally joining NATO overnight.
I know those countries.
Well, they are historically very neutral, did not want to join NATO and just overnight particularly, and obviously they live in the Baltic area and that's the concern, and so I think Europe's going to have to come together more with respect to that space, and they do not. The Nordics have always handled Russia pretty well, but that change was a sea change from my perspective, and an indication of how serious this threat is.
China.
What should the policy be here, How should we think about China over the next several years.
Our relationship with China has been deteriorating over the last ten years, twelve years, and the way I've felt about this is unless our president and the president of China tend to this relationship, we will continue to come apart across the board. I'm hugely concerned about it. It is the one existential threat to the United States of America and to the western world, China and where Shishinping goes,
and what he does matters greatly. I'm somewhat comforted by the interaction of our economies, the interdependence of our economies, which I think can bound how strongly we would react in terms of whether there would be conflict or not. But those two individuals need to manage this relationship, and if they do, I think it get better. If they don't, it's going to get worse.
What do you think, presidents she's I guess global ambitions are are they regional too?
I think he starts regionally.
I think that part of the world, but clearly he's invested globally, you know, around the world. And in many ways he's copied us. You know, he's copied what the United States has done since the early nineteen hundreds, including the South China Sea in the early nineteen hundreds, we wanted to figure out how to take care of our home waters in the Caribbean. So he continues to copy us. His military continues to grow. He's got a lot of
churn in the military. He has fired a lot of his senior officers, so I don't know how much he trusts his military leadership. But I back to what I said, I think it's got to be our president and their president that make sure nothing bad really happened.
Michael Mullin with us here.
The Admiral of course, in the seventeenth Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Robert T. Kaplan the number of years ago. I throw it at kids, I say, shut up and read this. It's Asia's cauldron and the South China Sea. What is our submarine capability with that island off China where they they're building subs and building up.
What is their capability?
What is our capability in the South China Sea?
Right now most important weapons system in the United States military with respect to China as our submarine force, and we need to continue to build it. China is obviously understands a lot of that. But I mean, when the Wall came down in the late eighties, it turns out the Soviets were not ten feet tall. The Chinese are not ten feet tall. So they've got huge challenges. We know that, but that capability, that underwater capability, threatens them.
Back to Lloyd Austin, to General Austin, the basic idea of the Americans considering four bases in the Philippines with young Marcos, what does that sea change on the Pacific rim of our showing the flag in the Philippines.
It's huge and it sends a very strong signal to China. And when you talk to I talked to my Chinese counterparts, they're concerned.
We are.
Our strategy is containing them, surrounding them, and it's hard to even though we say we don't do that, when you're looking at it from Beijing, it sort of looks like that. But that's a really important relationship and a very very strong shift in terms of our strategy with respect to China and all.
Can you give us a sense of how are men and women in uniform today, how do they feel, how do they feel about their calling, what they're doing, their missions?
Can you characterize it a little bit?
Yeah, I mean these young people and so this from e goes back obviously a long time, but during the Wars, I was so taken by this younger generation and who they were and where they came from and what they were committed to. That has continued. So there's a lot of churn at the top. I get that, but my own experience over many decades. Is for the most part, the troops ignore that they've got a mission. They care
about the country. They're very patriotic and they want to do well by the country and represent the United States, and they do so and their extraordinary.
How is our ability to attract and retain?
You talk to any CEO we put in your seat, and they will say one of the biggest challenges is attracting and retaining good personnel.
How is it with the military?
Well, I mean we historically we've gone up and down.
We had two or three years ago we had a pretty significant downturn. The services have all recognized that, and from what I understand now, that's been turned around, and so it continues to be very, very attractive from a recruiting standpoint, and we recruit. My own view is we need to recruit from all over the country from every background because of the military, and I states military needs to represent America.
And that's really a key two questions.
I don't want to spend a lot of time in this, but it's certainly germane to Bloomberg news Our editor in chief John Micklethwaite, and that is the Pentagon has decided to curtail the reporting of the media on our military affairs. It just seems across the span of America back to the Civil War, even farther back, just outrageous. Your thoughts on a limitation of journalism at the Pentagon.
I think it's, first of all, almost can't do it. The reporting is going to continue to happen no matter paper well, I mean it's it's I mean that's I grew up in that world and feel very strongly about that. I think we've been through a lot of this discussion, and I think it's been pretty healthy in the last two weeks tied to that tragedy, that tragic assassination of
Charlie Kirk. I think one of the core pillars of the United States of American art democracy is free speech, and we cannot and should not restrict that in any way.
I have to talk about my seminal book on leadership with a hat tip to James Tavetus and his Leader's bookshelf, and that is Everardlrab sat down with the admirals of World War Two as they're all becoming more agent not young spring chickens like Michael Mullen. The Navy, which is the arc of generations from Nimics and.
Sprague over to where we are now.
Is it a new navy to Michael mullen or is there an arc of integrity there within all the turmoil of the Pentagon?
Would there is an arc of integrity? That's who we are And it's not just the Navy. I think it's the military that is our core value. It is service, It is strategically led, and I know a lot of the leaders and they're incredibly capable. Obviously the world has changed dramatically, but I think this Navy and its leadership is very well positioned to focus on the requirements that we have right now, which are vastly different from way back,
way back then. But it takes that kind of focus from leaders to bring the Navy and actually the rest of the military to meet the needs that we have right now, which is I think we're at an inflection point. We're probably at the most dangerous time in my life in terms of what's changing in the world, and our military is obviously a big part of that. It's not
the only part. We've got other parts of our government, particularly from an economic standpoint, from a diplomatic standpoint, that must also focus on our own security, and we do that together, and the better we do it together, the better our security is going to be.
Again, going back to America first, that is a change in doctrine since the end of the Second World War, where we found ourselves in a leadership position. Whether we wanted to be there or not, we were there, and I think that's created NATO and the whole world order that we've all grown up with.
Is that a risk of changing this is?
Well?
I mean, if you listen to the discussion, it may be. And I think we need to pay attention to what's actually happening on the ground. How many forces have actually come home not that many. How many commitments have been reduced, not that many. We're still in the Gulf, We're still in Europe obviously, we're still in the Western Pacific in that part of the world. So I would look at execution as opposed to just paying attention to what's being said.
What is ancient heir?
As a final question, ad well, is America has to show the flag?
How do we do that?
Well, I mean, I'm a I'm a joint guy, but I'm a Navy guy.
Straveta said, you have to understand he is a Navy guy.
One of the one of the things you learn when you grow up is you're showing the flag and you're showing it in places that other people one haven't even heard of and two maybe not they the people, the locals have not heard of us. And that that flag represents so much to so many not just to Americans. I've been around the world a lot for decades, and that flag means so much to so many people in terms of freedom, opportunity, uh and and a better future.
And that continues to be the case, and we need to continue to show it.
Ederyl, thank you so much. Edylan with us here at the.
Bloomberg Global Forum. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance coming up after this.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from seven to ten am Eastern Listen on Applecarplay and Android Otto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.
Joined us always in forever with the Bank of America and of course rivercon Carbon chairwoman. Today here at the Bloomberg Global Forum. I'd lead with the Red Sox, but I guess I won't it's fun to watch them here in September. I'm going to lead with you and I shared a stage at Davos a million years ago. Savita Supermanian was in the audience, Savia Bloss and all it was cop Whatever is COP thirty coming up in Brazil? Is it even remotely like what you and I did in Davos years ago?
Well, I think the issues are the same. I think that the enthusiasm is, let's say, a bit depleted these days. But I think it's more confusion than depletion. If right, to be honest.
Can the world go alone without America and move forward? And the debates in the financing of climate change?
No, but I think the financing of climate change is happening anyway, So it is. First of all, it's a market opportunity which has been lost along the way. And climate change is real. We can debate that, but the scientists don't debate it. And honestly, the largest corporations in the world aren't debating it. Europe is not debating it. Their rules are being implemented as we speak two and twenty six, twenty twenty seven. So there'll be a market, a cap and trade market that will be real.
I've got to.
Enterrupt Paul, this headline that's just out and live. This oracle looks to raise fifteen billion dollars on corporate bond sale, which is life goes on. You know, if transactions happen, you do this, you do that, and you go to the bond market with Bank of America and you raise money.
I mean, life goes on, Paul, Just so, I thought that was important.
I know, we'll talk to some dead people about that. So what does it mean? And when the President of the United States gets up in front of the United Nations General Assembly yesterday and says, effectively climate change is a hoax?
What does that mean to the whole movement?
I guess globally, Well, I'm sure it's suppressing to the movement, but I also think that people largely believe climate change is not a hoax and they see very real things in front of them. I do think it was a mistake in years past to talk about the Arctic or coral reefs or icebergs melting, because people don't relate to that.
What they do relate to is.
Extreme weather. Insurance prices going up in coastal areas asthma on the rise. Very prosaic things, maybe, but they're the very real things. The fact that farmland has been degraded, forests are degraded, and we have emerging markets that all want to industrialize and they'd love to do it more quickly, and they could do it more cheaply with clean energy than they can do with fossil fuels. This isn't an
anti fossil fuels dietripe. It is just a matter of clean energy is cheaper, and it's what's on the rise, and it's what's happening in emerging markets.
But it has to be financed.
Talk to us about the financing house. The environment changed over the last year, last two or three years.
Well, there were products like Rubicon is a carbon credits company, and that had great promise in twenty twenty one. By twenty twenty three it was in a depression. But twenty
twenty four to twenty twenty five has been better. It promises to be many times this size by twenty thirty, which is companies figure out what their carbon footprints and they buy carbon credits to sort of cover the delta between what is today and what they need to do in the future, and that money to everything from biodiversity, you know, reforesting places in the world or farmland, or it can go into industrial kinds of direct air capture,
or it can be concessionary capital for emerging markets so that they can get going.
And what you.
Invented at Bank of America with Sevina Supermania of Berkeley, it was extraordinary. You brought I mean this seriously, folks, an infinite can brought math and Excel spreadsheets to climate machine. Everybody else was you know, peace, love, dope, you know, candles lit. You know we're going to save the world. We are the world. And you said, wait a minute, we got to quantify it. What do those Excel spreadsheets look like right now?
Well, what they look like right now is I have to tell you huge companies like Microsoft are deeply involved in this. They just they did a deal with Rubicon just a few months ago for eighteen million tons of carbon credits. So companies are evaluating their footprint, they're putting money into it. This is trillions of dollars eventually in terms of the change in energy use, I think a lot of it will happen as emerging markets become industrialized.
I think some of it will happen in the United States. It is demanded in Europe, and another generation will also demand it.
So I'm gonna get to say, what's a pixie does in Texas? Why is Texas different than Massachusetts or any other state out there.
Well, it's wind and solar is actually superior to anywhere else. As you know, they may be the land of fossil fuels, but they're also the land of solar and wind.
Okay, we have to go and thank you so much for being with dis greatly appreciate infinchcating with us, and she is of course with a Rubicon and always forever with Bank of America.
Stay with us.
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This guest is the oddest guest in New York.
She has made the circuit of philanthropy not only on the island of Manhattan, but to the five Burroughs. I want to start with the best playgrounds in the world, which are Central Park playgrounds. You were instrumental and saying, hey, we need a playground at Fifth Avenue and whatever.
They're packed all the time, aren't they you?
Thank you?
They are they are.
What was the fight like to get playgrounds on the hello turf of Central Park?
You know, thankfully.
I think all of the leadership of the city and the Central Park Conservancy is always believed in having parks and our kids need them.
David Kelly, I assume a JP Morgan's worried about the ten year yield.
You're not.
You're worried about fistfights among families. You have arguably the most delicate job at JP Morgan. We're just explained to the parents that the young brats aren't on page.
What are we going to do to make wealth more intelligent?
Describe the biggest challenge right now in dealing with generational dynamics among JP.
Morgan Wealth Well, I'd like to say the clients I work with, Yes, they are the ultra high networth and high net worth clients that we are supporting in JP Morgan Wealth Management and helping them navigate with intention those opportunities and the challenges as you mentioned with wealth, and what I always say is it's the financial advisors who prepare the assets, and we are preparing the family for
the assets. There's a playbook and research and frameworks about this that can help families navigate this well and proven methods at help families succeed and carry that well through three generations. And that really is at the core of the playbook. So for us, it's really meeting those needs that the families have and providing also the lifestyle needs that they have. So there's an adjacent team too that can do everything from home staffing and.
Bill play and all of that.
So it's really the products and services that our clients need to meet you know, their well.
I have so many time questions, why don't you save an interview and take.
Over How does philanthropy work into your work with some of these high networth folks, because I know a lot of folks do have you know, they do have plans and how does that work?
So that's exactly right. So philanthropy is a key piece. When I just mentioned that roadmap that we work on with families, philanthropy is a key piece of that and so there's a number of us on the team that serve as philanthropic advisors to our clients. That can be everything from working with a patriarch and a matriarch who have set up a family foundation. They're very proud of it, but then their three children perhaps have moved to other
cities and have different interests. Maybe they're more in true climate change, and the parents were supporting the hospitals in the city in which they were born. So there's really something there about helping the family to navigate and move from that stage of expectations to actual agreements in the family. They're also come over to my house and definitely happy too.
We would be delighted to have as a client. And I also think that a very common case study that we work with working alongside our bankers, will be working with entrepreneurs. Perhaps they've had a sale of a business
and then they're thinking about their vibrant next chapter. A big part of that can be philanthropy, and as we have been talking today with the generational wealth transfer that's going on, helping to prepare that next gen to accept this wealth, you know, with a plan with the skills they need, really does take a coach, and as you've intimated, oftentimes, what we hear from our client hands is that having someone like us that's brought in the kids might tend
to listen to us a little bit more than their parents. I'm sure I think we all know that as parents ourselves talk to.
Us about that wealth transfer, it's something that might One of my offspring is in the financial services business, and I'm telling them you're in a great position because there is this wealth a transfer that's taking place. How do you guys think about it and size it up for your clients?
It is It is a growth business, right so thoroughly Associates said one hundred and five trillion will pass between generations exactly, enormous numbers by twenty forty five. What I think is interesting about it and what we're focused on at JP Morgan Wealth Management there first is this horizontal transfer. You know, women have live men on a global average by five years, and so the women will get the wealth first. I just wrote a paper on this that's
on our JP Morgan Family Wealth Institute. You know, women are taking over sixty one percent our leaders of foundations. Now, they tend to be a little bit more collaborative in their giving, they participate in giving circles. They want to pay forward their learnings in slightly different ways than we saw a thirty years ago when I was starting out my career. So I think it's that first level, and
then it's the generational level. So when we're thinking of that next gen and you think of your kids, for example, to help with the children, we run boot camps for our kids that are helping them to be strategic, impactful philanthropists and sort of understand the supports and the best practices there. And then it sounds a little bit more ephemeral, but I can't emphasize enough its importance is having a
family value statement. And so we'll work with the patriarchs matrix and then the family that really gives a family a running start, whether it's running a family business, a family office, you know, or a family foundation.
You're going to get this in real quick. It's too important.
The sterio, the stereotype today is the older generation loaded up at well all very philanthropic in medicine and education, and the tech brats aren't giving.
Is that a stereotype or is it true?
That's a stereotype. That's a stereotype. So the rising generation, I mean they are looking for purpose across everything, as we all know. They want purpose in their careers, they want purpose in their giving.
So donating fifty million to while Cornell is not purpose.
You're gonna that is? That is so you're going to see what I'm saying is I don't think that will change.
It is and we have breaking news. You've got to go to it. But thank you, so can you please come back.
I would be delighted to come back.
Thank you very hash is at lexing to them black with JP Morgan here on one of the huge, huge issues for families.
Stay with us.
More from Bloomberg Surveillance coming up after this.
This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at seven am Eastern on Apple Clock and Android Otto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal.
Joining us is Henry Fernandez's philanthropy to New York City is noted with a Council on Foreign Relations and of course with MSCI importantly a former Deputy governor of his Dominican Republic as well.
I have to start with the New.
York vignette, and it's what the spirit of New York is. You've provided major commitment to Memorial slum kettering. And just as an example, you had a phone call from someone abroad and they said, I'm sick, I need to come to New York.
That happens every day at Memorial Sloan.
Doesn't it totally?
And you know that well because of the great surveys your wife gave Memorials.
So it's about It's about.
Boston's the same way they get any all this negativity.
Guess what, when they get sick, they go to JFK or Logan, don't they?
And the Anderson in Houston.
But you know it's long Catoring is by far the most attractive one because it's New York City, and we see that people calling and wanting to come because this is the best cancer research center and treatment in the world. So therefore, talk about American exceptionalism, there's an example of that right there.
If you were speaking with President Trump right now about the virtues of our diverse cities, what would you say to him?
First of all, I'm very proud to be twenty percent of the Latino population in America that we're contributing four trillion dollars of GDP and twenty three percent of the economic growth of the country. And there are a lot of other people like that that want to contribute in America. So that's number one. I know immigration is an issue, but a lot of us have come to this country to give our blood, sweat and tear for the economic development and the.
Progress and the success of this country. So that would be my first message to it MSCI.
When we talk about ms CI, we think about emerging markets and the growth of emerging markets and how to measure the growth of emerging market assets. Talk to us about China. I mean, it's such a big part of the MSCI in next thirty thirty percent. What's your view of China? How you know, it seems like there's a cold war economic cold war between China and the West. How do you think about that as a global investor?
Well, China, first of all, the second largest economy in the world in PPT terms, purchasing you know, parity terms, it's probably even larger, and it's got a very diverse secuity market. You know, it's got to lead is a leader in many areas of the various industries around the world, including climate change industries. So therefore, how could you not invest in the country. It's investable, you can be there.
There are, of course geopolitical issues. There are of course potential military issues that could create sanctions and other things, and you've got to be mindful of that and careful with that risk. Other than that, you know, it's an open country. You can invest from anywhere in the world, and the more capital that is tied together between two societies, hopefully, the lower probability of a conflict.
Right as a global investor, thinking about emerging markets, we've got a US president, US administration, the US view that de globalization, maybe making America greater, maybe pulling back from some of our economic commitments, some of our geopolitical commitments.
How's that being viewed by the emerging markets?
Well, first of all, I don't think we are in a deglobalizing world, okay at all.
Okay, I think we are in a reglobalizing world. Trade last year.
Increased three hundred billion dollars global trade. We do not see trade, you know, going down, you know, maybe it slows down a little bit. The trade between the big superpowers. You know, China, US obviously is slowing down. The trade among Southeast Asian countries is increasing dramatically, the trade within Europe is increasing dramatically, and the like.
So you have a.
Reglobalizing right, and therefore it's going to present new opportunities for investment. Companies that are more in the cross hair of this are going to not do as well, but there are a lot of other companies and economists that are going to do well in this reglobalizing environment.
You tell young to remember the nifty to fifty, I unfortunately remember it with the concentration. How does mscies work? It's math change because of the concentration in mag seven.
Well, I happen to look very young, but I do remember that period of cigars. I do remember that period of time. There are there have been at least three periods of time in which the US equity market has been about seventy percent of the global you know equity markets.
That period was one of them.
The other one, right was right around the Internet bubble, and this period again, so there have been periods in history like this in the last forty fifty years. So we'll say, you know, is in our case right now is the big tech firms with AI and all of that. But they have good earners, they have good cash flows. They have that it's not like air, you know, in air, so but they will reverse itself at some point when you see other opportunities in other places.
Now, thank you so much for joining Bloomberg today, Henry Fernandez Folks philanthropis of New York City and of course with MSCI as their chairman in chief executive officer.
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