Terrorism Investigations Hurt by Shutdown

Intelligence Committee. Needless to say, we're still assessing the overall operational impact of the shutdown, but what's quite clear is that it was incredibly negative and painful for the thirty seven thousand men and women of the FBI and their families. In fact, years of work on terrorism investigations may be wasted due to the government shutdown. Here to tell us more is Jordan Reuben, Bloomberg Law Legal Editor. He's coming to us from the Bloomberg Law Studio in Arlington, Virginia.

Jordan's explain how the shutdown effect did intelligence gathering and counter terrorism efforts. Sure so, one of the most noteworthy and really even scary negative impacts of the government shutdown was how it affected operations of the FBI as a whole, And one important facet of that is, as you mentioned,

how it affected counter terrorism counter intelligence investigations. We have word from the FBI Agents Association, which represents thousands of agents, which reported that in at least one investigation, they obviously wouldn't go into the details, but they lost sensitive intelligence, sensitive sources, and that essentially led to months of work for some sources, years of work for others, essentially being

down the drain. It may seem ironic to some that drug and immigration cases at the border were affected negatively, and those are the two areas the President often points to in support of the need for a border wall exactly. So one of the things that I took a look at was at a border state like Arizona, for example, drug interdictions saw a drop during the government shutdown. Certain filings in for example, a district in Tucson near the

border saw a drop in illegal immigration cases. And that was something that was surprising to people who follow these sorts of things. And so the question is whether that was a direct impact from the government shutdown, and it is, as you point out, ironic, because that is the sort of thing that the President does talk about as a need for a southern border wall to stop these sort

of things. There's a cascading effect. The shutdown didn't directly affects state and local law enforcement, but it indirectly affected them and their relationship with the FBI, and that affects the future relationship with the FBI. Explain how that went down or didn't go down, Sure So, one of the

many complaints that we had from FBI agents. One of them was, for example, a call to the FBI to assist on a local homicide investigation, but due to lack of funds during the government shutdown, the FBI could not assist. And so the concern from the FBI there is not only that they weren't able to help out on an important investigation, but going forward, that could harm the relationship between state and local officials and the FBI when there's

help needed going the other ways. That's again one of the many negative consequences from the FBI's point of view of the government shutdown. Your story mentioned something which I didn't think about, which is paying snitches. I guess it's what you'd call them. Sure So, the lack of funds, touches,

all sorts of things. It's not just a matter of employees not getting their regular paycheck, which obviously is incredibly important, but the FBI requires operational funding to actually go and do things that are needed for investigations, whether it's paying informants to do buys of drugs for an undercover investigation. Again, that's something that's hurting the drug prosecutions that a southern

border wall would supposedly help to stem. As we also discussed paying confidential sources when it comes to terrorism type of investigations. So that's one of the many facets of the government shutdown that harmed FBI investigations. Are some of those source is perhaps lost forever or can they pick up and start paying them now, Well, at least some of them, according to some FBI agents, are lost forever, and of course even for the ones that aren't lost forever.

Like anybody else who relies on a steady paycheck, whether you're a regular government employee or whether you're drug buying informant, you need a regular source of income. And so if the government isn't going to be a steady paycheck, then you might look elsewhere in order to get your regular money. Not only the FBI, but prosecutors, public defenders and other judiciary employees that it takes to run the system orn't being paid. So I take it that's a hit too morale.

But what about retention and attraction of people in the future. Sure, So that was one concern that was sort of a constant across all facets of the justice system and people that I spoke to. There's the uncertainty, there's the low morale. There's a concern that people will look at this situation who maybe have other options in the private sector and say, you know what, I don't need to go through this. I could be making more money in some sort of

private sector job. And maybe this is someone who does think that public service is important, but it's just too uncertain if they're going to not be able to rely on a regular paycheck from the government and you know, the justice system and counter terrorism or their contractors involved. Sure. So that's one of the many indirect impacts of the government shutdown. And the worst part about it is for people who are contractors as opposed to employees, is that

they won't necessarily get back pay. And so whether it's someone like an interpreter who might be contracted out, whether it's through a prosecutor's office, whether it's through a court, whether it's through a public defender's office. That's the type of service that's needed in order to, for example, carry out certain investigations. The FBI mentioned that that was a problem as well, whether it's in terms of a gang investigation or a drug investigation. Interpreting services are something that

the government relies on a lot. And that's one example of someone who could be a third party contractor who is also affected by the shutdown indirectly. And another thing didn't think about until I read your article was the gathering of evidence crimes that were committed. There might perhaps

be evidence that's lost now or was collected sloppily. Well. Sure, when there's a strain on resources, whether it's in terms of not having the regular amount of personnel, whether it's the personnel that you have worrying about where they're going to get their next paycheck from, things inevitably are going

to fall through the cracks. And so the concern obviously in part stems from things that we can point to, but one of the most concerning aspects are the things that we won't be able to point to the cases that won't be able to get made in the first place, the strain on the public defender, who isn't able to put forth as vigorous a defense of their client as

they would like to. And so these are the sort of things that, whether you can quantify them or not, everyone who's involved in the justice system seems to agree was an extremely negative impact of the shutdown. It was amazing that the courts kept operating. Were there any courts we have about a minute here, were there any courts

that closed down during the shutdown? I would say the main issue wasn't necessar fairly so much the outright closure of courts, but they just weren't really necessarily operating at full steam at all facets. The criminal cases did take a priority. Some civil cases were put on hold, and

they're very important consequences to there too. So from some people's point of view, if their case wasn't heard at the time that it was supposed to be, then in some ways, you know, they didn't really get the sort of justice that they had anticipated from the system due to the shutdown. It's amazing all the indirect effects that we don't think about Thanks so much. Jordan's that's Jordan Reuben. He's at Bloomberg Law, Legal editor, and he's coming to

us from the Bloomberg Law Studio in Arlington, Virginia. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Basso. This is Bloomberg Ye.