Sessions Pledges Crackdown on Violent Crime (Audio)

tacking up. He told the National Association of Attorneys General that one of his top priorities will be to reverse the rise in violent crimes, and that law enforcement needs to crack down on drug use, including marijuana. He also said the Justice Department would pull back on civil rights investigations of police departments that were a staple of the Obama administration. My guests are Douglas Burman, Professor at Ohio State University Moritz College of Law, and Eugene O'Donnell, professor

at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Eugene, let's start with Session statements that were in danger of rising violence. Do the statistics support him? Well, the statistics don't. But there's reason to believe that disorder is on the rise, and a sense of public our needs is on the rise, and there is gun violence. And the other thing the Astorney General said, which is crystal clear, is the police officers in this environment are afraid to initiate proactive activity

and are afraid indeed to solve crimes. So you have cities like Chicago where people are shooting and shooting again the scores of it's not hundreds of people unapprehended for murdering or shooting people, and a a environment in which an elite has captured This conversation pushed out people on the ground there wisdom, their sense of uh concern living in the in the neighborhoods has been obscured by people who,

frankly by their own public safety. At this point, we have an apart side system in which the four are left of their own devices, the well to do you'll secure themselves At this point, do you agree, Judd, uh? Well at nuanced in somewhat different ways. Actually had to start with the highlighting that the statistics do show in particular cities that we've had a pretty significant uptick in

violent crime. Uh. But that comes on the heels of in two thousand and fourteen record low levels across the board, and so that contextualizes a little bit that that uh A not that significant uptick, looks like a high percentage, but it is something worthy to be concerned about. At the same time, UH, there are some cities New York, Philadelphia, a few others where a violent crime continues to decline

to record low numbers. And so one of the things that I'm hopeful that the Attorney General is is going to try to do, and there's a new task force UH that's specifically designed to take a look at this is try to figure out, Okay, what is working in certain cities where there's the same sets of pressures, there's the same set of concerns about proactive policing, and yet crime keeps going down, whereas in other cities it seems as though those sets of concerns are UH perhaps leading

the police to pull back, perhaps contributing UH to violent crime and particularly low clearance rates that make it that much harder UH not only to police in area, but then once a crime has occurred, to make sure that the offender UH justifiably pays the punishment price. Eugene he announced the creation as Doug Mansion of a multi agency task force. And often task forces end up just making reports that don't go anywhere. What will this task force do? Well?

I hope that the national police in crisis, somebody wants to do that job. Those are on the street or trying to get off. You can't recruit people at this point. You're throwing cameras into the mix, which you're going to make the cops extremely hesitant to do anything. And uh, the pressor mentioned Philadelphia. When I'm sitting today, a recent poem Philadelphia showed public safety is a concern, has catapulted

to the top of people's concerns. Why is that? I think people over the neighborhoods know the cops are invisible and they're handcuffed and they're paralyzed. By the way you see this on the roadways. Also, you just don't see the cops out there anymore. So we need equilibrium, we need this echo. We need to stop this echo chamber of a right left conversation. We have to look at what works. But let's be very blunt here. The police has had un They've been kicked to the mercilessly in

the last two years, the professionists is hurting badly. Um, rather than the Justice Department coming in, you know, even industry of lawyers, law professors, second guessers who don't do anything except answering the police. We need assistance to the police first, how we get them, second, how we educate them, and then how we empower them through the work that we need to do. Not the trip wire them and constutely threatened them, which has been the environment over the

last two years. Again, every law school in America as one or two professors that spent all their time figuring out how not to protect the country. We haven't spent more time, then, well that's what they do. Well, it's not about terrorism, republic safety. We need affirmative strategies for protecting peas dou I'd like to give you a chance to respond to Eugene's comments about police officers pulling back on enforcement because of anxieties basically about videos and investigations

and the public's fears. Yeah, and I I certainly think there is ample anecdotal evidence and even you know, some more systematic evidence that there is a kind of police pullback in some respects and in some cities that different

communities are experiencing that in different kinds of ways. And that's itself where I think Eugene's point is is a sensible one that a new Attorney General is going to look at that and consider that and try to create a kind of balance in our conversations about policing and police activities. Uh though, Uh, there are still plenty of communities that feel over police or at least, you know,

have a kind of adversary relationship with police encounters. That is, it'sself part of a broader problem that hopefully the Attorney General will not only be looking into, but be looking how to build healthier relationships between communities and police in order to ensure that the sets of problems oscillating one

way or the other are not pervasive. And that's again where I'm hopeful that there are positive stories out there in different communities, positive stories in terms of continued reducing crime rates and good relationships between police and citizens that the any General task force will try to build upon, uh, to ensure those relationships are moving forward in a positive

way in every community. Eugene jeff Session says he's going to back away from the civil rights investigations of police departments. Aren't those investigations intended to help the police work with the community. Is there a problem with those investigations? I think there is, I think and some of these departments are off the rails and need to be ranked in.

But what we really need again as as as a blueprint for how do you get people that are the best mabrieties to go into police work and having you forster an environment where they're supporting when they're acting honorably.

And we have this really devastating uh dialogue that has basically created in the minds of some people, again let by an elite, that there's nothing worse in America than policing, and that the criminal justice system is so totally flawed that it's better to let people pick up guns and shoot than to invoke the system. It's a fragile system, it's a creey system. But the notion that everybody being locked up is falsely accused, uh, you know, is a

commonplace uh mindset. And we talk about what's not working. We've got cities all over the place that solved less than half of the shootings and homicides, meaning tons of people shoot and get away. Chicago can't solve eight percent of people should get away. No question about the fact that part of that is that it is the police are risk averse. They don't want to be an officer involved shooting. They don't want to go out at four o'clock in the morning and take to somebody from his

bed who's just shot somebody. And this is having a terrible impact down on the ground where people live, and they've been silenced. People have been silenced. This elite that has hijacked this conversation has created this notion that there's nothing worse than policing and the justice system and it's just falls and we need a correction. We don't need an ideological correction. We don't need a right wing uh you know, rerunning of a law and order campaign, but

we don't sensible, smart policing. And some people have to be locked up. Let's be very clear. I don't know who. I don't know that anyone disagrees with you that that some people have to be locked up who are tried and convicted of crimes. Uh, Doug, do you see Jeff Sessions with his emphasis on on crime and on you know, cutting back on crime and violence. Do you see this as a hundred and eighty degree turn from the Justice

Department over the last eight years. I'm not sure return, but it certainly is a significant turn, especially, you know, remembering a few years ago that Attorney General Holder, you know, talked about America locking up too many people for too long, for no good law enforcement reasons. That was his language. That was sort of piggybacking off of dis concern and concern that is statistically appropriate that America's still engaged in

what's often called mass incarceration. We have the world's largest prison population, and even though there have been some slight declines, UH, there still are an extraordinary number of Americans locked behind bars, and that UH is something that the Holder and then Lynch Department of Justice was eager to be supportive of modest reforms to whereas I do think Attorney General Sessions UH is of the mind and it seems like Eugene kind of reflects this as well, that the problem isn't

over incarceration, that the problem still maybe under incarceration, that there are still lots of bad people out there, and that they need to be put behind bars for public safety. And I think that view not only is one that is you know, more widely UH shared than maybe UH folks up here in the Ivory Tower realized. But it also is a function. I think of a view that all of the declines in crime over the last twenty years or so have been a product of a ramp

up in incarceration. And though there's mixed evidence about the relationship between increased incarceration UH and reductions in crime, I think Attorney General Sessions UH kind of stands as an individual who largely is inclined to embrace them and who largely will say when we're seeing an upticking crime, the way to respond is to ramp back up enforcement mechanisms and the sets of policies and attitudes that largely drove the run up and incarceration rates over the last thirty years.

In the first instance, we set thirty seconds. I'm going to ask you quickly, Eugene, if you if you have an answer for this. Is his idea about enforcing the marijuana laws realistic in light of the fact that Trump campaigned on leaving the issue up to the states, and more than half of the states have legalized medical uses of marijuana. Yeah, I think we should stop model in a lot of people locked up who shouldn't be, who

are non violent, non attrect to others. But the con under me there are a lot of people who are not locked up. Should you. That's the problem. We've got violent people running amok, and you've got people don't after a blood press go at a low level non violent people. So an equilibrium balance and what really works in the neighborhoods, that's what we need to be focused on. Thank you

both for being on Bloomberg Law. That's you, gen o'donald, Professor at John j College of Criminal Justice and Douglas Berman, Professor at Ohio State University Risk College of Law.