Robert Mueller's appointment a special Council marks a pivotal moment for Donald Trump's presidency and the investigation into possible links between his campaign and the Russian government. The former FBI director will have broad powers, including the authority to pursue criminal charges. He won't have complete independence, but he will have a longer lease than a traditional federal prosecutor would have.
With us to discuss the appointment and what it could mean are William Wild, former governor of Massachusetts and also former U S Attorney in Boston, where one of the lawyers working under him was Robert Mueller. And William Banks, who was a director of the Institute for National Security and counter Terrorism at Syracuse Law School. Welcome to you both, Governor. UM, I do want to get into how much both power
and independence Bob Muller will have. But but if I could just briefly get your reaction to the appointment of Mueller by the Deputy Attorney General. Was this a good move? Oh? I think it's a good move for the entire country and and for the world. I mean, I've known Bob Mueller for a long time. I I hired him to the San Francisco U S. Attorney's office. Way back in two he came to Boston where I was the U S Attorney and became head of the Criminal Division, the
deputy U S Attorney. Then he succeeded me as U S Attorney. I went to Washington to be head of the Criminal Division and main Justice. He succeeded me in that position. And uh, you know, he's just the straightest guy I've ever met in my life and very able. So I think the country and the world can have confidence that no stone will be left unturned. On the other hand, there's gonna be no slanting of anything, there will not be a witch hunt, there will not be
politics involved in this investigation. Director Banks, the office into which he is stepping is different from the office occupied by independent councils like Kenneth Starr and Lawrence Walsh. And I wanted you to explain just what the differences are, how he is not entirely separate from the Justice Department.
It's a good question, because Governor Weld said, because this is Bob Mueller, the differences that we can identify now aren't going to matter so much because of his tremendous integrity and the reputation that he brings to this assignment. Absolutely no one will have any doubt about the independence of the investigation, or, as the Governor said, the thoroughness
that said, the regulations now are Justice Department regulations. So unlike the the independent councils of old, the Lawrence Walsh and ken Starr investigations and others, this one is not authorized by statute. It's authorized by the Department itself. So in theory and in practice, Mueller will report to the Attorney General. UH So he's he's uh, he's authorized under this uh, this notice from Mr Rosenstein to conduct the investigation that was described and confirmed James Colemey and his
testimony before the House Intelligence Committee. He's authorized to look into any links or coordination between the Russian government and those associated with the Trump campaign. And he matters that arose or could rise directly from that investigation and any other matters within the scope of federal law. So it's a very broad uh mandate. And and indeed, in theory he could be questioned by the Attorney General. But because it's Bob Muller, I think none of us will worry
about that. Governor. Well, one difference is that Ken Starr could not be fired by the president. Um as if I understand this correctly, Donald Trump could actually direct that that Bob Muller be fired. Do you think that will affect his work, make it more difficult for him? No, it's not going to slow him down one iota because he wouldn't care if somebody did the wrong thing and and fired him. He's just going to get to the
bottom of it. He would be a complete terrier. Uh. And as I say it's gonna be, it's gonna be even handed, I would expect. And by the way, special counsel don't have to indict anybody just because they have that power. And and you know, when I was head of the Criminal Division and Main Justice, I operated under that uh independent Council statute. And my memory is more often than not no charges were filed. So people shouldn't rush to assume that they're going to be criminal indictments
out of this. Uh. My My guess is that under all the circumstances, uh, Mr Muller might find it appropriate to issue a report of his findings with the FBI's findings at the end of the investigation, which he certainly has the power to do. I mean, even a grand jury can issue a report of its findings if it if it wants to, and that would I think make
everybody feel better. We're talking about Robert Mueller's appointment as special counsel with William Well, the former governor of Massachusetts and a man who hired Robert Mueller for the U. S. Attorney's Office in Boston, and William Banks, he is the director of the Institute for National Security and counter Terrorism at Syracuse Law School. Governor World, you were talking a moment ago about the possibility that this wouldn't end up
with any criminal charges but instead a report. How long would you expect this whole process to take this this the allegations here are are quite quite varied, and it seems like there are a number of prongs and that it could be could be certainly months before we get a resolution for this. Oh yeah, it could be months, but that's nothing in complicated criminal investigations. You know, a typical long lead time grand jury investigation in the financial area,
it might take eighteen months. But they're not going to let this happen. The Bureau is going to bring all its resources to bear and uh, you know it'll it'll be counted in months, but I think the number will probably be you know, fewer than six, uh and you know, three or four if if possible. But it's a complex
investigations the the interest. An interesting point that I think you mentioned earlier is the relationship between the Justice Department investigation and congressional investigations, and conflicts can arise there when Congress immunizes witnesses in order to give testimony publicly before Congress, because once that happens, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to prosecute the person criminally, because you have to prove that none of your leads, none of your evidence, came
from the public testimony. That happened with Colonel Oliver North and I ran contra uh in when I was in Washington handling that one, and he could never be prosecuted. I'm not saying he would have been, but he never could be. And if I were Michael Flynn's lawyer right now, I would be running, not walking, to the Senate Committee saying we're happy to testify in front of your August bodies.
Just understand, my man's a witness, so we'll be there under immunity and boy, do we have a tale to tell that can be very tangy to Congress, and they feel a responsibility to get facts out there, just as the Justice Department does. But we'll see, we'll see how that rolls out, Director Banks. If there are no criminal charges that are likely to come from this, what will be the ultimate use of the final report? Uh? From
Mr Muller, I think Governor Well put it well. Many times these investigations do not lead to criminal indictments, but instead to a report, and the report its purposes not to answer public questions about what happened, but to determine a set of foreign intelligence and counter intelligence objectives that may or may not have criminal attributes. So it will be important to put the possibility of criminal conduct in
this area to rest. What what was not emphasized in the appointment of Mueller for obvious reasons, is that the underlying investigation remains about the influences of Russia on the presidential election. So whatever Congress does going forward will certainly
focus on that question. It's a very important question. Uh. You know, it could get into questions about whether sanctions are appropriate in response to the activity of a hostile foreign power, whether the oversight powers of Congress have revealed something about fraud or abuse in the executive branch, and whether Congress might need new legislative measures to protect our electoral system. What about I'm sorry, just what about Trump's
possible obstruction of justice? Who was investigating that? Well, that would be Mr Mueller. It's possible for Congress to conduct its own investigation, but to the extent there's criminal wrongdoing that's encompassed in the Justice Department writ governor world Uh
the um his uh. Mr Muller's law firm, Wilmer Hale is old law firm apparently represented Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort, all players in this whole whole affair, and in Richard Painter, the former chief astic ethics officer in the in the George W. Bush administration, has suggested that Bob Mauler might need to recuse himself from decisions involving those people because of the involvement of his former law firm. If that happens, Um, how much of a complication is
that for this investigation? You know, I'm not sure I see Bob needing to recuse himself because of relationships of his former law firm. Uh. You know, if he personally worked on those cases, which I very much doubt, that would be a different matter. But I'm not I'm not sure I see that as a big stumbling uh block
to his investigation and Director Banks. Do we need a select committee or some other kind of independent commission in addition to Muller's investigation and those already going on in Congress? I think to focus on the underlying question of the Russian involvement in the election and future threats to the integrity of our electoral system, something like an independent commission would be a very a good idea. It's it's follows a different path and has different objectives than an investigation
of any association of the Trump campaign with this matter. Governor, Well, let me just give you the last word that there's a Law Street Journal editorial today that said that Mr Muller will be quote under pressure to bring criminal indictments of some kind to justify his existence. Uh. They worry that he will become also quote de facto untouchable. Well, we only have about thirty seconds left. Let maybe I
could get your reaction to that. Well, if anybody's not going to buckle the pressure, it's going to be Bob Mueller. He has nothing, nothing to prove to anybody. He doesn't have to go out and make a name for himself. He's He's made a great name and life for himself already. So I don't think that he would succumb in any degree to political pressure. It wouldn't matter who was yelling at him or pointing fingers. That's one advantage of having led a long, good and productive life, as he has. Well.
People yelling at other people and pointing fingers is what happens in this town, so there may well be some of that. I want to thank our guests William Well, former Massachusetts governor, and William Banks, director of the Institute for National Security and counter Terrorism at Syracuse Law School, for joining us here on Bloomberg Law coming up. The eye word is in the air. That's impeachment. But is it perhaps Democrats who have something to worry about and
maybe they should be careful. We'll discuss discuss that in a few moments. You're listening to Bloomberg Law. This is Bloomberg