Ramifications for Giuliani After Ukraine Allies' Arrests

and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Another dramatic twist to the impeachment inquiry, putting Rudy Giuliani closer to the center of that inquiry into whether President Trump wrongly pressured the Ukrainian government to investigate his political rival while withholding aid to the country. Two of Giuliani's associates have been indicted on campaign finance charges for criminal charges including conspiracy,

falsifying records, and lying to the Federal Election Commission. Joining me as former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, head of the white collar practice at McCarter in English. So people often here campaign finance charges and dismiss them as something that's not that serious. Just how serious are these charges? Well, these are very serious charges, and they carry potential lengthy

prison sentences if somebody is convicted. And essentially what federal law prohibits here are foreign campaign contributions to American politicians at any level of government, and the idea behind this is simply that we don't want foreign governments to be interfering in our electoral process, whether that's on the state or federal level. These two men were arrested at the airport as they were about to board a flight to Germany with one way plane tickets. That's something that juries

can really latch onto. Here. What we had was what's called a sealed indictment. That means that these individuals a four individuals charged in this case had already been indicted by a federal grand jury, and the U. S. Attorney's

Office simply had not unsealed that indictment. What they did was, as soon as they found out that these two individuals were about to board a plane to leave the country and had one way tickets, they went out and arrested them immediately because there was certainly a chance that they would go to a country where extradition would be difficult or perhaps impossible, and then it would be almost impossible

to ultimately bring these two individuals to justice. So would jury draw an adverse inference from that that they were had one weight plane tickets, Well, it really depends on the circumstances. Of their departure. If they could, for example, point to the fact that they were traveling overseas for some legitimate business reason, or that they had traveled overseas on a routine basis, it might not appear as necessarious.

On the other hand, if prosecutors can point to the fact that these individuals had gotten wind of these charges or knew that the government may have been closing in on them, and then boarded a plane to travel overseas, that could be some indication of consciousness of guilt. House Democrats have subpoenaed the two associates for their communications with Giuliani, and they've also subpoenaed Giuliani for his communications with them, among other things. Are there any grounds for them to

oppose handing over the documents. Well, the two individuals that have now been indicted are unlikely to cooperate with any congressional investigations, are now facing federal criminal charges, and they will undoubtedly assert their Fifth Amendment right and perhaps also a certifistmen or right against turning over any documents. Rudy Giuliani, on the other hand, is in a different situation. He's

obviously not being charged with any criminal offense. Here is not directly related to any of the criminal charges that have been filed against these individuals. But on the other hand, he is a central witness in this criminal case, so any testimony that he would give before Congress would certainly

involve these allegations. And he's in a bit of a box here because he has to decide whether to be forthcoming and completely cooperate with Congressional investigators, which could potentially imperil him in a criminal case, or whether to decide to refuse to cooperate. Bob, he said so much already, and a lot of it contradictory. So is the difference here that he would be testifying under oath and not

just talking to a news host. I think the difference here is that he is now, while not charged himself with any criminal wrongdoing, he is just a little bit

closer to individuals who have been charged. Giuliani has acknowledged that these two individuals who have been charged in this election interference case worked with him as he attempted to try to get the Ukrainian government to investigate the bidens, So they are linked with him in a way that puts him in greater peril where he decided to testify

freely before Congress. In most cases like this, the two men are facing prison time, you'd expect that they would make a deal with prosecutors give information on someone higher up the chain in exchange for leniency. How much pressure will they be under to flip and give information, perhaps on Giuliani. Well, like any defendants who have been charged with a federal crime and our fasting significant jail time, one way out of their troubles is to decide to

join the government's team and cooperate. That could essentially buy their way out of jail. It really depends on the individuals, how much j time they're facing, and whether or not they're willing to roll the dice and take their case to trial, knowing that if they lose, they'll wind up in jail for months and perhaps in even years. The U S attorney in Manhattan said, the investigation is ongoing, and it's the SDN wise Public Corruption Unit that's involved

in the investigation. That's the same unit of prosecutors that handle the case against Michael Cohen, President Trump's former personal lawyer. What does that tell you, Well, any case that involves potential election interference is going to typically be prosecuted by the Public Corruption Unit in the U. S. Attorney's Office.

But we also know that Michael Cohen has cooperated with the Manhattan District Attorney's office and is apparently eager to continue to cooperate, so there's a possibility that his cooperation played some role in this investigation. We know that he had some ties to the Ukraine, so that's really an unanswered question, but we may learn more about that as

this case unfolds. So Giuliani is being scrutinized by federal investigators for his financial dealings a core to Bloomberg sources, this is a man who made his reputation as a crusading prosecutor who took down dirty financiers and organized crime when he himself was the U. S. Attorney in Manhattan. Wouldn't he know enough to avoid the pitfalls? And that's

a great question. Certainly. People who have followed Rudy Giuliani's career have seen a stark contrast between the way he conducted himself as a U. S. Attorney and as the mayor of the City of New York and the way he has conducted himself more recently, both in terms of his business dealings with Ukraine and his representation of the president.

It's really hard to square the two um and it's hard to know what's going on inside Rudy Giuliani's mind, but he certainly has to be giving serious thought to the fact that he is being drawn into this criminal investigation. And it also raises the interesting question of whether or not Giuliani can continue to act as an attorney for the president now that he is at least a witness

in this federal criminal prosecution. Is Giuliani more like Michael Cohen, who flipped on President Trump, or more like former presidential aid g. Gordon Liddy, who refused to flip on President Nixon. That's a very difficult question. But so far, Rudy Giuliani has displayed complete loyalty to the President and has been one of his most vigorous advocates at every stage of the process, both during the campaign, during the Muller investigation,

and now during this impeachment inquiry. So I think it would be very surprising to see him alter his position from that role, and I think will continue to see him defending the president. The only question now is will he also have to be defending his own actions. Thanks for being on Bloomberg Law, Bob. That's Robert Man's a partner McCarter in English. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

Law podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg m