President Biden's Debt Ceiling Options - podcast episode cover

President Biden's Debt Ceiling Options

May 26, 202317 min
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Episode description

Constitutional law professor Michael Dorf of Cornell Law School, discusses whether President Biden can invoke the 14th Amendment to go around Congress and other options if an agreement on the debt ceiling is not reached. June Grasso hosts.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

Speaker 2

Is imposing the fourteenth Amendment a perfect solution? No it is not, but using the fourteenth Amendment would allow the United States to continue to pay its bills on time and without delay, prevent an economic catastrophe.

Speaker 1

With no sign of a debt limit deal in sight, some progressive Democrats, like Senator Bernie Sanders are urging President Biden to invoke the fourteenth Amendment to go around Congress to pay off the nation's debts. Biden believes he has the legal right to do that, but doesn't necessarily know if he has the time because of the expected legal challenges.

Speaker 2

I'm looking at the fourteenth Amendment whether or not we have the authority. I think we have the authority. The question is could it be done and invoked in time?

Speaker 1

Joining me is Michael Dorf, a professor at Cornell Law School who's been studying and writing about this issue for some twelve years. So the White House has appeared to rule out invoking the fourteenth Amendment, even though President Biden said this week that he believes he has the legal right to invoke it. So tell us what the argument is there? For the Fourteenth Amendment.

Speaker 3

So Section four of the Fourteenth Amendment says that the validity of the public debt of the United States shall not be questioned. And it was adopted in eighteen sixty eight in response to the fear that representatives of the states of the former Confederacy in Congress might not pay

for the Union side debts from the Civil War. But the language is much clearly broader than simply Civil War debts, and so it is taken by everybody to be a general statement of the proposition that the federal government should pay its debts. There is debate over or what counts as part of the public debt. Does that mean, as some people say, only principle and interest payments on bonds, or does it mean, as simplical say, in the other direction,

everything that the government has agreed to pay. So that includes, of course bond principle and interest, but also paying creditors for services rendered, such as hospitals and doctors who perform medical services pursued to medicare social security recipients who are owed the money by virtue of entitlement legislation, and so forth.

So that's the question, and the theory is that if the government is unable to pay all of its bills, then that is either a default, or even if not a default, it calls into question the validity of the public debt. So some people argue, and I think this is a pretty plausible argument, that if the government fails to raise the debt feeling and can't come up with the money to pay all of its bills some other way by taxes or selling property or what have you,

then that would violate the fourteenth Amendment. And under those circumstances, the debt sealing statute would be unconstitutional. And so the president, by so called invoking that would be saying, well, if the debt stealing statute is unconstitutional, we do what we do with any unconstituted statute. We put it aside. And then there are other statutory provisions that authorize the government to borrow so much money as is necessary to pay

the government's bills. So that's the theory behind invoking the fourteenth Amendment. And as I say, it's pretty good. What President Biden expressed a worry about is that, as he said, it would have to be litigated. Now I don't think that's literally accurate. It wouldn't have to be litigated, but it almost certainly would be litigated. So, as a practical matter, his concern is legitimate people would sue. Possibly House Republicans

would sue. You could imagine investors in pension funds and the like suing to stop the funds from purchasing bonds of questionable legality, and so there would be litigation, and that would mean that there would be uncertainty about the new debt that had been issued. At the very least, there would be an interest premium that the government would have to offer investors to accept bonds that might not later be declared valid.

Speaker 1

Has this been tested in the courts at all? Barack Obama also rejected this option during the twenty eleven debt sealing crisis. Why are presidents so reluctant to.

Speaker 3

Use this well, precisely because it hasn't been tested in the courts. The way that our legal system works is you can't get into federal court just to ask a question. You can do that in some state court systems. There are many other countries in which you can do that. You can get a so called advisory opinion from a constitutional court. Until relatively recently that was the only kind

of ruling you could get in France, for example. But our courts do not issue advisory opinions, and so the only way to find out the answer to a legal question is to do it in real time, as it were.

And so I think the reason that both President Obama and now President Biden were reluctant to go that route was because if you do, and then subsequently the courts say, actually, you can't do that because the fourteenth Senment has a narrower scope, or because even if the dead ceiling is unconstitutionally you still don't have the power to borrow money.

Then you only find out after the fact, and in the meantime a whole lot of people might have purchased bonds, and that could add to the chaos, uncertainty, and economic damage.

Speaker 1

There is a lawsuit filed by a federal workers' union in Massachusetts. Is it on the theory that you have said is a possible alternative to the fourteenth Amendment?

Speaker 3

Yes, So that lawsuit, which I think is very well crafted, is on behalf of unionized federal workers, thousands of them who would risk not getting paid on time and being unable to pay the bills. For their families, if the government does not raise the dead feeling, and if the administration then goes through with what is sometimes thought to be the conventional wisdom of then prioritizing paying people who have bonds and deprioritizing other government bills, so not paying

federal workers. Their theory is not that this would violate the fourteenth Amendment, but following a line of reasoning that I and Neil Buchanan, who's a macroeconomist at the University of Florida, have articulated over the last dozen or so years, the theory would be that this would be a violation of separation of powers. And let me explain why that

would be so. Article one, section eight of the Constitution gives to Congress all of the relevant powers of the purse, the power to tax, the power to spend, and the power to borrow. If the government passes sets of laws that say, collectively, spend more money than the combination of what you take in through taxation and borrowing, Professor Buchanan and I say, well, that means that the government can't comply with all three of those things simultaneously. Something has

got to give. Our analysis has always been that what has to give then should be the debt sealing that the debt sealing provision would be the one that you don't comply with. And the reason is that you can't do either of the other two things. Certainly, the president isn't going to raise taxes on his own. That's not power the president has. But the president also doesn't have the power to prioritize, that is to say, to cut spending. That's the power of Congress. The Constitution says Congress gets

decide how much we spend money on. And it's not just that the president can't spend money without authorization. The president also can't not spend money that he's been authorized to spend. I can give you two relatively recent examples of this. So President Nixon tried to do this. He impounded, that is to say, didn't spend a whole bunch of money that Congress had appropriated, and that was eventually slapped

down by the court. When President Trump did this with respect to the money that was supposed to go to Ukraine, that ended up being the first basis for the articles of impeachment against him in twenty nineteen. Right, the idea that you can't fail to spend money that Congress has said you should spend. And the reason for that is simple. Congress has the power of the purse. Budget deals are

carefully negotiated. There's all sorts of bargaining going on. If the president could just decide, you know what, I didn't want to spend the money on this combat fighter plane or for this environmental project, so I'm just not going to spend it, you would be taking over legislative power.

And so what this lawsuit argues is if the president, in a debt sealing crisis were to say, I'm going to pay the bondholders, I'm going to pay federal military contractors, but I'm not going to pay all of these federal workers. That would be a usurpation of legislative power, far worse than for the president simply to instruct the Secretary of the Treasury continue borrowing money the way you always do,

but only in the amount necessary to cover the revenue gap. Crucially, what the lawsuit says is that Congress could, if it wanted to give to the president discretion not to spend

certain funds. But it hasn't done that here, and it certainly hasn't provided any kind of what is sometimes called an intelligible principle, by which the president is supposed to make the decision of whom to pay, when to pay, whom to stiff by how much, and so forth, so that in the absence of congressional legislation specifying a prioritization scheme, it is a usurpation of legislative power because of the vast scope of presidential discretion. As I say, that is

the theory of this lawsuit. It is also more or less the view that Professor Buchanan and I have been arguing for now for about a dozen years.

Speaker 1

The judge in Boston has ordered a hearing for next week on May thirty first, on this key argument, But the Justice Department lawyer didn't take a position on that question at issue.

Speaker 3

So far right, So this goes back to a point you made earlier, which is that although President Biden has seemed to rule out the so called fourteenth Amendment option, neither he nor Secretary Yellen has taken off the table all of the other possible workarounds in the event that

a deal doesn't get through Congress. I suspect that what the Justice Department is doing here is sort of holding their cards as close to the vest as possible, because they undoubtedly have a Plan B, but they want to keep the pressure on the Congress to make a deal by not saying what that Plan B is. I should

say this is not necessarily the best bargaining strategy. Sometimes you want to make clearer to your bargaining partner what you'll do in the event that the negotiations break down, because arguably by ruling out or seeming to rule out, these other workarounds, what the administration is doing is telling Speaker McCarthy, hey, we've got no Plan B, and so

we need this more than you do. What you really want is to put the pressure on the other side to think that they need it more than you do, and so ruling out Plan B doesn't seem to do that. But as I say, I don't think that President Biden has fully ruled out other options, whether it's the fourteenth Amendment or even better, this separation of powers argument, or some of the other ideas that have been floated.

Speaker 1

So as the Union was pushed for the case to be put on an even faster track, the federal judge Richard Stern said, if the emergency is as dire as you think it is. I would think that it's within the power of the president to address it using executive branch authority. What do you think he was saying there? It's not my value Wick, So I'm.

Speaker 3

Not really sure. Until we hit the so called X date, right, the date in which the government runs out of money, the president isn't going to address it by borrowing additional funds, and for the moment, the Treasury is paying all of the bills in full and on time. Now, maybe he's suggesting that the administration could issue an executive order stating what it's going to do in the event that the

clock strikes midnight with no legislation. But of course the Union is suing the administration right, Saying that the administration could do something seems like it's confusing who the plaintiff and the defendant are, right, the plaintiffs of the and who are saying, yeah, they should do something, so give them an order to do it.

Speaker 1

How likely is it that the judge would give them an order to do it?

Speaker 3

I think it's quite unlikely. Before you know, June one or June two, that is, I think the judge here quite understandably is hoping to be let off the hook and waiting to see whether Congress enacts something in the next few days.

Speaker 1

In the area of I told you so, the president could have announced from the start that the debt ceiling was unconstitutional and it won't stop him from paying the country's bills, and that's it.

Speaker 3

So let me be clear. I have never said, and I don't think that there is any good way around the debt ceiling if Congress doesn't raise it. All we're talking about are what are the less bad ways around it.

And it's not necessarily even my view that the debt feeling is unconstitutional the way Professor Buchanan and I talk about it, As we say, violating the debt ceiling is less unconstitutional than the other plausible options, in particular, less unconstitutional than usurping legislative power to make the president have

the decision over the entire budget. But what I have said, and this is more as a matter of sort of strategy and tactics and constitutional law, is that the president's hand would be strengthened in any bargaining were he to announce that, if push comes to shove, I'm going to continue to issue debt. I should say I'm not a professional strategist, tactician, or politician. And so when I say that they should have announced that, I don't say that

with enormous confidence. I have greater confidence in my legal analysis than I do in my ability to project how all the politics plays out.

Speaker 1

But no one has that ability, as we've seen. What are some of the other suggestions out there?

Speaker 3

There are other suggestions floating about. One that was popular back in twenty eleven and has been refloated this time around is a seemingly crazy idea to have the US Mint create a coin with a face value of approximately three trillion dollars and deposit this with the Federal Reserve, which would then credit the Treasury's account by three trillion dollars, and they would use that money to pay the government's bills. The idea is so facially outlandish that I believe the

administration has ruled it out. In addition, I don't actually believe it has the legal advantages that as proponents say. That is to say, I don't think the statute authorizing the creation of these coins is for anything other than collector's items and commemorative coins. But that's one idea that's floating around a somewhat less ridiculous idea is to have the government borrow money but to issue bonds that either have no expiration date or that pay a super premium

rate of interest. And the reason to do that is that, given that the way that the Debt Feeling Statute is written, the face value of those bonds would be much lower than what the government could sell them for, and so the government would be able to actually issue a lot of debt, not all of which would count against the debt fealing, and so that would buy a whole lot

of time potentially. I think this argument is somewhat more plausible as a matter of the statutory text, but it would also be subject to the same problem that the President had with invoking the fourteenth Amendment, namely, there would undoubtedly be litigation over the validity of those bonds.

Speaker 1

Well, thanks so much for covering the entire landscape for us. That's Professor Michael Dorf of Cornell Law School, and that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Glaw Show. Remember you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg

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