Painter on Whether Ben Carson Violated Hatch Act (Audio)

After that introduction, the tweeting started. Did Carson violate the Hatch Act, which prevents executive branch employees from using their government positions to influence elections. Our guest is Richard Painter, former White House ethics lawyer and a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. Richard tell us a little bit more about this law from The Hatch Act was enacted to prevent federal government officials from using their official

position to influenced part as an election. Uh the Republicans and the House and Senate. Some of the Democrats are asserted about the Roosevelt administration chickler. When they're spending a lot of types throw the money, analysts as the programs, and I'm gonna using their official position to influence part as an election. So the Secretary of Health and Human Services, like other federal officials, is prohibited from using his official

title at a campaign rally. Whether or not he violated the Hatch Act will turn on whether he ought, drove, or encouraged someone she introduced him using his official pun. It was clearly anappropriate friends be introduced using his official cast title. The question really is who violated the Hatch Act, whether the person introducing him UH improperly used it or whether he UH do that that was going to happen or encouraged it, in which case he would face violation.

So us A Hot spokesman told The Washington Post that Carson did not hear his name before he was que to go on, and all other references during the event referred to him as Dr Carson. So if that's if that's true, that he didn't really know about the way he was going to be introduced, is that then not a violation? Well, I think that he would not have violated the Hatacks unless he himself used his official title or allows the one or tell from what they could

UH to avoid this type of thing. However, the Executive branch agency is as supposed to communicate with the campaign personnel people write a political rally, how important it is that the executive ranch official only appear at the rally in his or her personal capacity, that the official title never be use. So apparently that was not done. Um

so clear it was improper. The question whether this is uh ignorance of the law the part of the Trump campaign staff, which is entirely pop or whether it's something that Secretary Carlton Uh, whether he sucked your Carson encouraged it, uh, you know. And then the middle ground, you have a situation where his own staff and h g W you know was h h HS was with Carol zed and should have been more um forward leading and trying to prevent these types of violations. How does enforcement of a

violation of the Hatch Act work? Who reports it to whom? The Office Special Council is an agency set up to administer the Hatch Act, and they do investigate allegations of violations of the Hatch Act. Has been one violation by a member of the White House, for sure, who was tweeting using a White House Uh, we're using it a personal Twitter page that also is a White House photos and official titles on a purpose of advancing political campaigns. Um. So that's this type of thing some time at the

time the Special Council of that's the gate. Uh, and then make the recommendation as to what should be done and what can be done, what kinds of punishment. If someone is consciously, knowingly or recklessly violated the hattack, the usual sanction is for them to be fired, to be fired in um. In June, the incident that you were talking about was White House social media director Dan Scovino tweeted a call for the electoral defeative Republican Representative Justin

Amash of Michigan, who was often critical of Trump. He was just reprimanded by the Office of Special Counsel. Well, yes, the ulti Special Council cannot make the decision about where to fire somebody if they make a respectation. Uh, that's up to the president of this White House has had a somewhat laxed approach to the office issues. They did sanction Kelly and Conway at all with respected for violence of the ethics rules. That wasn't a violas match Act.

But she was using her official position to promote a vanka's clothing and the office governor. It's really very clear that was a violation, and they just got a lot of pushback to the White House of that. So at the end of the day, Uh, the President decides how strictly he's going to enforce these rules for his there and Richard, really everyone who when Ben Carson comes on stage,

just about everybody knows he's the HUD secretary. What harm or influence is there really in someone introducing him for

about ten seconds as the HUD secretary. Well, that's a very good question because I've taken the position that's what the law should be is the Cabinet secretary, high ranking executive branch officials should be prohibited for participating in campaign events while they are holding off the only hold office usually for a few years, and I think that's a time of focus of their official duties and not participating

the part of the politics at all. Um at least they shouldn't be going to fund break But that's my view of what the law should say. What the law is is that they are allowed to participate. Where we draw the lot and say, well, they cannot use their official title, Uh, they cannot use any government money for persons attending an event costs. Uh. And then they are, however, allowed to participate in their pression of the path. But either though, it's you're correctly quite out. Everybody knows who

they are. People go to these events in order to smooth these executive branch of social and uh. You know, I think it encourages the pay to play game in politics when we let executive branch official crisis cabinet sectaries go to political events. Let me ask you a question that is separate. Um, when President Trump endorses candidates or makes references to candidates in tweets one way or the other,

is that a problem an ethical problem? Uh? No, the hatchack does not apply to the press and uh and the vice president does not apply to the member Congress. We don't distinguish between their official capacity and their political capacity as we would for other executive branch employees other than the president of the vice president. So presidents have appeared uh uh quite recently, the introduced as president and

then they endorse a candidate. Uh. And uh. That that's why comments So I wouldn't I would expect to see more than was unusual. President Trump is of course, he's attacking so many members of his own party. Uh that I'm not there being a Republican to lest other times through. But that's a practical problem. Yes it is, all right. Thanks so much for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Richard Painter, and he is an ex ethics expert, if I can say that correctly. Thanks so much Richard for being on

Bloomberg Law. As always. He's a former ethics lawyer at the White's House and a professor at the Universe in Minnesota Law School.