Graham Promises `Holy Hell’ if Trump Fires Sessions (Audio)

and his campaign seems to be backfiring. Senate Republicans are furious at the treatment of one of their respected colleagues, and a number of Republicans have called White House officials and even Trump personally to warn him against removing Sessions.

According to a Senate geopaid who asked not to be identified, last night, Senate Judiciary Chairman Chuck Grasslely tweeted there was no way his panel would consider the nomination of a replacement for Sessions, and this morning, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina issued a more far reaching warning, there will be no confirmation hearing for new Attorney general. Uh if Jeff Session is fired, there will be holy Hill to pay. Any effort to go after Mueller could be

the beginning of the ends at the Trump presidency. Unless Mueller did something wrong right now, I have no reason to believe that Mueller is compromised, and Sessions has shown no signs of stepping down. My guests are Aims Growert, counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jane Healy, vice president of the Cato Institute. Aims presidents have been

angry with their ages before. Bill Clinton reportedly furious with Attorney General Janet Reno over her decision to expand Special Prosecutor Ken Stars authority in the Monica Lewinsky matter, but there was no public statement or attempt to fire Reno. What are the consequences of the president attempting to or appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department? Actually, all right, okay, we're having a problem with his line. We'll try to reconnect him. Let's go to Jean Healy

with that question. Gene, what are the consequences of the president appearing to interfere in the activities of the Justice Department. Well, it could be very far reaching, up to an including impeachment. We had the first article of impeachment formally introduced in the in the House two weeks ago by a representative Brad Sherman, and it's based on obstruction of justice in the Comy firing. It's unlikely to go anywhere right about now,

but it's it's become increasingly difficult to tell. The Trump administration comes at you fast. That's certainly true. I understand that Aims is back with us Aims. The President has also publicly criticized Depp, the Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, acting FBI Director Andrew McCabe. He's criticized the intelligence agencies. Of course, he fired James Comey. What are the consequences to the public who sees this of politicizing the people who handle

the nation's security and law enforcement. Sure, thanks for having me first. I'm so glad we were able to reconnect um this. Actually, it puts groups like the Brennan Center in a tough position because I think if you know our work, you know we're no huge fan of how Attorney General Jeff Sessions has been managing his Jeffice Department. But the flip side of that is we're we're also

we also stand by the rule of law. We don't want to see a situation where an attorney General like Jeff Sessions, is fired for anything other than his performance, which we view them view there are problems with and I do think it risks undermining the rule of law

and Americans trusts and their government gene. The Washington Post reply order that Trump has discussed with advisors the possibility of avoiding Senate confirmation of another a G by trying to install a new a G through a recess appointment if Sessions were to resign or be fired at the White House denied that, calling it fake news. But Senate Republicans have been holding proform as sessions every few days, haven't they? When the Senate is otherwise in recess? Will

you explain what they're doing? Well, Yeah, this is something that came up in the Obama administration, and it's a it's a good in in hindsight that the President does not have the power to declare UH the Senate actually in session UH during these proformer sessions. This should be an obstacle to UH. To Trump trying to recess a

point a new attorney general. He seems to think that the role of the Attorney General is to be his UH sort of Tom Hagen, his counciliary and run interference for him, and that's not the proper role of the attorney general. And uh I there are reports that he will get serious pushback from Republicans if he even thinks about trying this gambit. I've been talking to Ames Growit, counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Jeane Healy, vice president of the Cato Institute, about the standing feud

between President Trump and his Attorney General Jeff Sessions. There have been no tweets this morning, so that's one thing um Ames Graham Lindsay Graham. Congressman Lindsay Grant said in a separate interview on Fox News that he's preparing new legislation that would require a dismissal of the Special Counsel to be reviewed by the courts to protect against the abuse of power by anyone. If he gets that legislation on the floor, will will he be able to get

the votes for it? Do you think That's a pretty interesting question, And I think it will be a big test for where exactly a Republicans Democrats see their role in this process. I think that could be a good way to make sure that um things don't go out of hand very quickly. If Trump gets his way and is able to either four Sessions out or directly fire him. Um, I think that will test a lot of We've seen tests for a lot of our institutions, and this will

be just one more. Geane, what's your opinion about whether he could get that signed, well, not signed, actually not signed. You would have to have I'm just I'm just thinking it through now. The signing might be a problem. Well, look, you know, short of legislation, they're they're consequences for these sorts of behaviors. I mean, the irony is that he seems to think that the Trump seems to think that it was sessions refusal that got him into this as uh,

and it wasn't. It was firing Comey using uh deputy attorned General Rosenstein's cover, uh and then admitting on national TV a couple of days later that there that the reason he the real reason he did it was over the quote this Russia thing. I mean that that pretty much made the appointment of a Special Council almost inevitable. And uh, you know, you you're seeing reports that you know, he's asked advisors about his ability to pardon friends and

associates and even himself. Uh, any number of these things could be attempted, but I think they're there will be and should be political consequences for them, up to and possibly including impeachment if he decides to go that route. Games let's turn to that surprise announcement on Twitter yesterday that has many people questioning what's going on for the thousands of transgender people currently serving, where Trump said that they would not be serving and the Defense Department came

out with a statement saying that they would that. Um, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs made it clear to Top Press that there will be no changes now and that President Trump has to give direction to the Defense Secretary, and the secretary has issued implementation guidance. What is the president's power as far as enacting something like that. Yeah, I think, like so many stories we've seen in this in this new Trump era, there there are two levels

for this one. There there's the one, there's the stubsitive problem that it's it's it's a flap in the face to the many transgendered people who served with honor in the military. And then the second one is, Uh, President Trump doesn't seem to know that he should consult with the Defense Department before making broad sweeping proclamations like this.

It's it's it's somewhat of a good and a bad thing that we have um that there are officials in the government that know what their roles are and know how the system works. On the flip side, we've seen um Jeff Sessions, who has been planning for a role like his current one as Attorney General for all his life,

and he he knows how to run it well. And that's that's that's bad for some of us who think that he's using that power in a way that's destructive to attempts to reform a criminal justice system, for example. But on the flip side, it's it's he's one of the he's an adult in the room, and it seems like the Defense Department is as well. In a check

on the sort of surprising impulses we're seeing. Emanate from Pennsylvania and gene Marine General Joe Dunford who wrote that message, he said, quote, we will continue to treat all of our personnel with respect. Is there a hint in there? Possibly it is, you know, whateveryone thinks of this see and some of the other policies pursued by the Trump administration. There is a basic question of competence. Uh. You know, you don't have uh executive orders on immigration drafted by

the former head of Bright part News. Uh you know, the does will tend not to be affected. You don't announce a sweeping change to military policy that has an impacts on uh many people's lives over Twitter. Uh you know it's uh, it's it's really it's tough to keep up with this. It seems that it's not enough to check in the morning in the evening anymore. You have

to be checking constantly throughout the day. So finally, we just have about a minute here, Aims, I'm going to ask you how long do you think Jeff Sessions will last in his off us. Uh. We we have sort of a running debt on that around the office. I think the really interesting thing about Jeff Sessions he comes to this position after you know, a long career in the Senate love it or hate him, or love him or hate him, where he made a lot of friends.

He's leaned him at Senate courtesy. We saw in the in the Russia hearing where you know, called out over specific misstatements, he'd say you know, my colleagues here know that I've always been honest with them, and we can we we can. I expect that he can use that same cache to protect himself in this job, unfortunately for a lot of damage. And we're almost out of time. Are you going to give me a number? Well, last through this administration? Will he last through the end of administration?

I think he will, alright, Jean, yes or no on that one. Uh, he will last till the end of the administration. Whenever that is all right, Great answers for both of you. That's Gene Healy, vice president of the CATO in Student Aims grow at Counsel at the Brennan Center of Justice.