Giuliani `Truth' Comments Put Trump Interview in Doubt

Commander in chief to testify in the Russia probe. Speaking on NBC's Meet the Press, Rudy Giuliani said he doesn't want President Trump to be stuck in a perjury trap. And when you tell me that, you know he should testify because he's going to tell the truth and he shouldn't worry. Well, that's so silly because it's somebody's version of the truth, not the truth. He didn't have a conversation this truth. I don't mean to go like, I know,

it isn't truth. Truth isn't truth. Joining us as William Banks, professor at Syracuse University Law School, Bill, We've talked before about Rudy Giuliani's misstatements of law and fact, but I don't even know where to go with his statement on the truth isn't the truth, and now it's the overwell

comes to mind is one place to go. But you know, it's certainly the case that the work that's been done by Don McGann to testify for what is at seventy thirty hours before the Muller team puts President Trump in an even more difficult position. He's sort of damned if he does agree to an interview, because he may he may be contradicting some things that McGann has has said. Uh, But he's also damned if he doesn't, because then it's McGann's version of the events that is going to be

controlling more than likely in Muller's report eventually. So uh, always there different versions of events that happened from two persons point of view, and the President and McGann may have different ones. But the statement that that, uh, that the truth isn't the truth is not a way to

try to bring them into one. Uh. Lens Well, And I wonder if what he was trying to say there was that there are facts and then you know, I don't know if he was trying to make a distinction there and what's kind of on the spot, but you know, there are facts and then there are people's opinions about what happened around those facts. That's correct, and of course

he may have a different interpretation. But it seems unlikely to me now that the President would decline to speak to the to the Infant Council, given all the record material that McGann has provided them. Let's talk about McGann talking to the Special Counsel. A lot was made of it because of the New York Times story, But does he really have a choice about testifying to the Independent Council. I mean, he's representing the White House, not the President,

that's right. He represents the office, and in that respect, he's like any other government employees, So he really didn't have much of a of a choice. He or through his counsel, they could have negotiated the terms and conditions of the interview and the subjects that he felt were

was appropriate for them to speak to. And it sounds like he didn't do that because the approach of the White House at the time, to Mr Giolanni's predecessors, was to be h broadly, transparent and open with the Special Counsel. They would certainly like to walk that back now, but it's too late. Well, there might not be attorney client pro furtilage here, but is there any chance that there

could be executive privilege? Yeah, these questions were you know, these were litigated, these questions during the Clinton UH scandals twenty years ago, more than twenty and UH in both cases on executive privilege and attorney client UH McGann side would have come out on top. That is, there wasn't an executive privilege because of the ongoing investigation that could

lead to criminal charges. It's a similar scenario that the Clinton indictment, eventual indictments could have presented that there were potential criminal charges from the conduct being investigated, so the need for the information outweighed any interest in confidentiality or privilege. Bill, I want to test your memory for a moment, because

I think it's better than mine. But this this morning, President Trump was tweeting about collusion and how Muller first said it was collusion, now he said it was it could be obstruction along those lines who first mentioned collusion, because as we've discussed before, there is no crime called collusion, and I don't remember it ever coming from the Muller team, which has only dealt in you know, facts, hard facts, well facts and law, and as the Muller team knows,

to a man and woman, there is no such crime is collusion. There's conspiracy and they know that. Backwards and forwards, I think we started talking about collusion. Yeah, I think someone in the Trump group used that phrase originally, but my memory is not better than yours, June, and I'm not sure who was. Yeah, well, but you you do.

I'm sure remember back to John Deane and Nixon obviously, and uh and so we're so, you know, the president is reviving memories of that of all that, well he is, and you know, I don't think it's fair to to equate or even compare, uh Don McGann to John Deane.

But McGann, you know, he was he was wise enough and counsel enough to get the advice of counsel before he agreed to speak to Mulla, and he was advised along the way about the subjects that he should speak to and about the depths and clarity of the answers

that he should give. And he's you know, he was determined to protect his uh, his own skin here because I don't think we would put it beyond the president to try to place Don McGann in a bad life or blame any missteps or legal wrongdoing on on the

advice of his counsel. I want to change topics a little here and go to George Papadopoulos, who pleaded guilty and it's going to be sentenced because the prosecutors, the Muller prosecutors put in a memo to the court about how much how much time he should get, suggesting it and it's it's quite stark in their decision or their opinion that he really did not cooperate with them, and they didn't recommend a good sentence. They recommended guidelines, right.

I think that is a bit surprising. We were we never knew as much about the Papidopolis and aspect of the investigation on the details concerning it, as we did about several other pieces. Sometimes people for got, many of us forget that it was really the Papadopoulos UH investigation that broke open the Russia the Russian inquiry, because people now associate the beginning of it with the so called

Steele Do Cia. But Papa was turned evidence or turned material over to the UH, to the media and then to investigators before the steel issue ever came to light. The other thing that that surprised me. I had thought that he please admit a deal with Mueller. But in the in the memorandum, they say that there wasn't a deal. It was just cooperation. Yes, I think that, you know, they probably were inching toward a deal, but he did not give them as much as they felt they needed

to to get it. So we'll see what his sentence turns out to be. All Right, thanks so much, Bill, Always a pleasure. That's William Banks. He's a professor at Syracuse Unit City Law School. It's day three of jury deliberations and the trial of former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manifort for bank and tax fraud. Speaking to reporters on Friday, President Trump commented about the trial but declined to say

whether he would pardon Manifort. I think the whole man of Port trial is very sad when you look at what's going on there. I think it's a very sad day for our country. He worked for me for a very short period of time, but you know what, he happens to be a very good person. Joining us from our Bloomberg studios in Washington is Kevin Whitelaw Bloomberg News deputy managing editor. So Kevin the President took to Twitter again this morning, ratcheting up the attack on Mueller. Where's

the collusion? They made up a phony crime call collusion, and when there was no collusion, they say there was obstruction. What what do you think is going on with this ratcheting up of the tax on Mueller day after day? Well, I mean, I think, you know, this is a continuation of what he's been doing for for weeks now and months. So at some point, I don't know it. It's a little hard to measure when the temperature goes up or down. Um, I think the um he clearly feels that he's making

headway on shaping some public opinion. It sort of keeps his base short up in theory, and at least so is a certain amount of doubt among other other people. Opinion polls do suggest that that you know, Mueller's doesn't have the highest ratings, uh, sort of you know, trust popularity wise. So so some of these attacks are making a bit of an impact. Uh. And and he's trying to prepare the battlefield. I mean, keep in mind, and it's not clear that Mueller has the authority to indict

a sitting president. But so so the biggest risk to Trump could simply be impeachment, impeachments of political process. So and you're trying to inoculate yourself against a political threat, you know, sometimes you go on the offensive, and that's that's uh, that's what he's doing. What's the over under on a pardon for Manafort. It's unclear. I mean, you know, I think that um, Trump has enjoyed using the pardon power.

Would be pretty decently uncharted territory for for him to issue a pardon like this one uncharted territory politically, and and I mean, he has the authority to do it, but the political consequences of it are complicated. Manaford also faces another trial, so you'd be looking like you're sort of actively undercutting a political investigation in a way he hasn't quite done yet. Um. There is also the possibility that instead of pardoning him, he could commute a sentence

after he's sentenced. Um, So that'd be a way to keep him at jail, but but not quite a full pardon or obviously, you know, he might he might not do anything. We we don't have a good sense of of what he's thinking. On that. This is, of course, assuming he's convicted, although there are eighteen counts, which I think explains why the jury is taking a few days to to sort of work through them all. Kevin, how

would a pardon really help the press? Because partning Manafort means that Manafort can be called before a grand jury and then he can't take the fifth he has to testify. That might be the risk, which is why commuting a sentence might, um, you know, it might be a more attractive way because it could it could make it at least more complicated down the line. He we don't really

know it. I think, you know, to the degree that if Manafort was going to cut some kind of a deal with prosecutors, he obviously sort of missed his opportunity in this trial. So um he could, uh you know, I guess still sort of do one down the line, but uh uh in terms, you know, in return for sentencing relief. It's not clear he even has anything to to give. But if if Trump wants to muddy up the probe, undercut it, you know that he could try

all kinds of different things. I suppose. Let's shift over to Michael Cohen, the president's former attorney personal attorney Fixer, according to The New York Times, now under investigation for bank fraud and tax fraud around his UM taxi businesses. What's that about? Yes, Well, I think we've known for a while that that that the prosecutors have been looking into loans that he made, uh, that that he got for his taxi business, that that he probably shouldn't have UM.

And I think he's he's in some pretty serious legal jeopardy over those. That's sort of its own thing. I think it it it. We also know that prosecutors have been asking questions about the various payments he helped arrange to two women, including Stormy Daniels on behalf of the president and others. That's obviously much more significant from a

sort of political standpoint and from even from a legal standpoint. Uh. If if the prosecutors are going there, and I think we have less clarity about how far down the line they are and trying to do some of those charges and and where that stands, Uh, it does seem that uh Cohen is you know, signaling that he wants he'd be interested in trying to make a deal with prosecutors. It's not clear they're interested. It's not clear at this point whether Cohen even has anything to offer that Pross

Skeeters actually want. That's that's what's really interesting, is that he's been sending out these signals. He hired Lannie Davis, who has also been sending out signals. Seems like, I'll make a deal. I'll make a deal. But if prosecutors want to make a deal, they know how to call the his attorney, and his attorney knows how to get

in touch with them. That's exactly right, And it's you know, we we don't obviously know whether there's been any conversations, but uh, it doesn't seem like it, given that he's still signaling it. Remember, they've raided his house, his office, his hotel room, so there's a bit of a question about what he'd even have to offer them that they

don't already have if they want to do something. This case has been separated away from from from Mueller's case, so you know, unlike some of the witnesses, a referral from Mueller's office was a referral US attorney in the right, so right, So it's not clear how, if at all, Mueller's case would factor into they're thinking when it comes

to a deal. So even if Cohen had something to offer related to Muller's case, you know, st n Y gets to make its own set of decisions and coordination with Main Justice about you know what what they what kind of deal they might Kevin one minute here, but Main Justice, I mean, if there's if there's information that will help the Mueller probe, Mueller will know about it if he doesn't know about it already. Yes, I mean I think there's there's a fair amount of coordination that

would go through. But st n wise a decently independent operation as well, so they've got a fair amount of room to maneuver when it comes to these things. But yeah, i'd imagine that if they could, if they had something related to mother's case, they'd pass it on to Main Justice and Muller's prosecutors. So that would be a complicated decision at some point that would probably involve the Deputy

Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, who's the man overseeing proble. He is in the middle of everything, which is why there is so much attention on him. I don't know if any Deputy attorney to know we ever knew the name of before even all right, Thanks so much, Kevin. That's Kevin Whitelaw, Bloomberg News Deputy Managing editor. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg

dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg. H m hm