Giuliani Says Trump `Immune' From Muller Subpoena

to adult film actress Stormy Daniels during the campaign. In tweets this morning, Trump confirmed what his new lead attorney, Rudy Giuliani said on Fox last night that he repaid his lawyer Michael Cohen for the one dollar payment Cohen

made to Daniels just days before the election. This morning, on Fox and Friends, Giuliani also discussed the changes the chances of the Special Council interviewing Trump before they rated a lawyer's office, which will turn out to be an outrageous uh violation the attorney client privilege, before they put out the questions and completely soil the atmosphere. The chances were pretty good. Now we're gonna have some convintion to do.

My guest is former federal prosecutor Reno Mariotti, a partner at Thompson Coburn, were not This new version of the facts is a hundred and eighty degree change from what Trump and Cohen had been saying previously. It's obviously a legal strategy. But what's your assessment of it? Wow, Well, it is a strategy, I'd say, if if I had to make sense of the strategy, which is a little

hard to make sense of. I think originally, what what Giuliani was trying to do last night on the Hannity Show before the comments this morning, was to try to help Michael Cohen. You know, we know that Michael Cohen is under investigation for campaign finance violations related to the

payments to Sturmy Daniels. Uh. And I think, you know, although the President had been trying to distance himself from Michael Cohen recently, you know, Um, the President did an interview recently and Fox and Friends where he said that Cohen didn't do much of his legal work and he was an independent businessman and so on. Um, it looks like, you know, they were It seemed to me like they were trying to help Michael Cohen here and try to

convince him not to flip um. But I think that, you know, and then the consequence of that, of course, is creating legal liability for the president Unlike Michael Cohen. You know, as president of the United States, Uh, Donald Trump can't get indicted while in office, or at least that's the current position of the Justice Department. Uh. And the Republicans and Congress can protect him from impeachment. Uh. And so um, you know, that's a way of transferring

liability from Cohen to Trump. But I think Giuliani's statements were so in artful that he may have actually harmed both Cohen and the president. One of the things I found odd in one of the interviews that Giuliani did on Foxes, he said, when I heard Cohen's retainer of thirty five thousand when he was doing no work for the president, I said, that's how he is repaying with a will profit in a little margin for paying taxes. Does that sound like Juliani came up with this new

explanation in a Eureka moment. I've seen this, and that's how I'll do it. And he even talked about funneling money, which is an odd term to use. It is a really term to use. And I have to say, UM, it's it's very odd and irregular. Why would somebody who purports to be a billionaire need to pay one hundred and thirty thousand dollars to their attorney over time and installments, UM, through a retainer. Um, it's very unusual. Um, it does

not really make a lot of sense. Uh. It seems to me more of a um after the fact explanation for this, rather than what was happening at the time. I mean, I think, um, you know, you know, it appears from what we know that at the time, you know, this was an arrangement that you know, perhaps not a lot of thought was given to the legality of this, and uh, you know now they're trying to scramble. I mean, the good news for Trump that still remains is, as

I said, he's president of the United States. UM, it can be hard to go at him personally legally, But Cohen knows a lot about the president. He was his attorney for a long period of time. There's a lot of issues related to what Cohen could tell prosecutors about Trump,

because obviously there might be attorney client privilege. But you know, what we've seen thus far indicates that Cohen hasn't been acting much as an attorney, So, um, you know, it's possible that this could really have very significant impact for the president. You wrote an editorial in The New York Times about those forty nine questions that Mueller could ask

Trump filtered through Trump's legal team. You said, they leave little doubt that Trump is in serious jeopardy, and the questions showed that Mueller has already thought about how he would prove his case on obstruction. Tell us how sure? So, Um, there's no doubt that the President did a number of things that you could construe his acts that might be influencing the investigation, like firing James Comey. The question is

all about his intent. You know, if the president fired James Comy because he thought he was a bad FBI director, that's one thing. He certainly is entitled to do that. But if he was firing James Comey because he was was upset that Comy was not going to stop the investigation of Michael Flynn and he wanted an FBI director who would be more amenable to um, you know, uh, interfering with the investigation, that would be a crime. And so the question all comes down to what was the

president's intent at the time, and to prove that. Really, what Mueller is doing is looking at the president's words and actions over a long period of time, not just what he said in the Lester whole interview, which a lot of people focus on, but you know the fact that, for example, he got very angry and erupted at the Attorney General Jeff Sessions, when Jeff Sessions told him that he recused himself. Reportedly, the president said, um that he wanted, uh,

the attorney general to protect him and to shield him. Um. You know. Similarly, the president has talked about firing the special counsel, Robert Mueller. So there's a whole series of events in which the president is shown is an intense interest in the Russia investigation and a desire to try to, you know, shut it down or cut it off or

stop it. And so uh, Mueller was asking very pointed questions, uh, you know in that list that we saw about what the President really intended and meant when he said and did all these various things. And really what that tells you is that the president is the one who's under investigation here. It is the president's intent that's an issue, and Giuliani was developing Excuse me, Giuliani, Mueller is developing that evidence, uh, in order to um, uh you know,

potentially prove that the President obstructed Justice Renaldo. The Trumps team seems to be putting out many reasons now why the interview won't take place in about a minute. Should Muller just issue the subpoena already before Trump has a chance to fire Rod Rosenstein something else? Well? Um, I think, um, you know, that's more of a political question. You know, if he let's say he issued the subpoena, now, I

mean Trump could still fire Rod Rosenstein. Uh. Realistically, Um, you know, if if if Trump appointed a new deputy Attorney general, or for example Mr Francisco stepped into the shoes who's the solicitor general, and next in line stepped into the shoes of Rod Rosenstein, he certainly could try to prevent Muller from issuing a subpoena. But I think that that would, you know, create additional problems for the Trump team. I suspect that at some point that would

become public and you know, would generate a lot of outrage. Um. I really think for for Trump and his team, at this point there there's there's savvast move and that's not that does not I do not mean to suggest that they will do this, but the Savvys move would be, I think, to keep Muller in place and then do continue doing whatever they can to discredit him and to

attack him. Because if they do get Muller out of there, rob Mula and rosen Stan out of there, they replace them with new people, and then they have to you have to cut you off there, thanks so much. That's when we're federal prosecutor. We're not on Mariotti. Justice Anthony Kennedy has been the swing vote on the Supreme Court

for more than ten years. For the second year, the one year old justice is the focus of retirement speculation, something that sends anxiety into the hearts of many liberals joining me to either put the speculation to rest or not is Bloomberg New Supreme Court reporter Greg's Store. Greg explain just how important Justice Kennedy is to the decisions in controversial issues that come before the Court June It

it's hard to overstate how important he is. Um he is usually the swing vote when you have a five to four Supreme Court decision. He's with the conservatives on things like campaign finance and the decision from a few years ago that that cut out up core part of the Voting Rights Act. He's with the liberals on gay rights and generally on abortion access. One Professor Michael Clarman of Harvard Law School said he is the most important

Supreme Court justice in history, and it's not close. You write that Kennedy's retirement quote would drop a political bomb into what's already one of the country's most divisive eras since the Civil War. What's likely to happen? Tell us how it would unfold? Well if he were to retire this term. Uh. And with Republicans having fifty one seats in the Senate out of the one, they don't need

democratic control. Uh So, as long as they can hold together, and that includes a couple of Republican senators Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski, who tend to be on the side of abortion rights. But as long as Republicans can can hold together, they can get a nominee. Confirmed that said, um, the magnitude of the shift on the court would mean

that um uh no holds will be barred. Uh. Liberals Democrats will fight as hard as they possibly can to derail a Trump nomination until the mid term when there's at least a chance that Democrats could take control of the Senate. Now, if let's suppose that Trump does nominate someone and that a Conservatives put on the court, would it be a lasting change on the court. Yeah, it would would in all likelihood be huge. Um. The the conservative members of the Court would all generally be uh,

relatively young. The oldest would be would be Justice Clarence Thomas um. And unless one of them were to leave during a democratic administration, and and it's hard to imagine any of them would do that voluntarily. Uh, it's it's a majority, a solid conservative majority. Uh, that that would last for decades. Kennedy has seen how Justice Neil Gorstch, who replaced the late Justice antonin Scalia, is a pretty

reliable conservative vote. So is staying on the court the only way that Kennedy could really protect some of his accomplishments like gay marriage. Yeah, well, well that's certainly what what folks on the progressive side are are saying, you know,

try and encourage him to stay. Um, you know, there's there's at least a theory that that the gay rights precedents on the Supreme Court are not going anywhere, that it is regardless of who who would succeed Kennedy, that were unlikely to see the Court try to revisit the Albergia Fell Gay marriage ruling, for example, whereas a decision like Roevie Wade could be overturned. Um. And on the other side, some of the decisions like Citizens United, where

Kennedy sides with the liberals excusing with the conservatives. Uh, those could be more vulnerable if a more liberal justice replaced Kennedy. So his legacy may be more secure in a sense, Uh, with his more liberal decisions, regardless of who who succeeds him. So Greg Supreme Court justices, well, we should know by the end of the term. Will we be hearing from Justice Kennedy. Yeah, We're definitely in

the season now when justices do announce their retirement. So the last two who have sept the step down who retired, Uh, John Paul Stevens and David Suitor both did it around this time. Some of the justices, if you go a little further back, Sandra Day O'Connor um third good Marshal Louis Powell retired at the very end of the term after the last decisions. So we're certainly going to be watching up until that last week of June when we expect the Court to finish its term. And so add

to the speculation here, what is Justice Kennedy likely to do? Boy? Uh, you know, there are no outward signs that he is going to retire. He he in the sense that he's hired his clerks for next term. He is going to teach in Austria like he does every summer. Um. But it would not be a surprise to anybody if indeed he does say that this is the end. He shows no signs of slowing down. When you when I listened to the oral arguments, you see him there. Do you

see anything that indicates that he's ready to slow down? No, certainly nothing I can point you to in any concrete sense. Um. You know, the thinking is really that he was appointed by a Republican Uh. Some of his former law clerks tell me, uh, you know, he still thinks of himself, as you know, coming from that from those roots, and would like a Republican president to nominate his successor. If

if um, and if he waits for another year. There's a possibility that Democrats take control of the Senate, and um, you know, maybe no nominee from Donald Trump could get onto the Court until the next presidential election. You right. And I was surprised by this that though I shouldn't be, conservative groups are already making plans to back any Trump nominee.

So in about a minute, tell us about that. Yeah. So, um, there's a group called the Judicial Crisis Network that uh, um is uh conservatives who have gone to bat went to bat for Neil Gorsich. It's sort of the genesis of it. Um was back uh in the George W. Bush administration supporting John Roberts and Sam Alito on the court. Uh,

conservatives have they're willing to. They run television advertisements, and many of those advertisements are likely to show up in states where, say, uh, Trump leaning states where a Democratic senator is up for re election, and they could be very powerful forces. Well, it's it's a really interesting story. And Greg, we will wait to hear from us to what Justice Kennedy is doing. Thanks so much. That's Bloomberg News Supreme Court reporter Greg Store, Thanks for listening to

the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brolso this is Bloomberg