This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. The Supreme Court has at least five cases on its dock at this term that could potentially reshape the employment law landscape. The cases cover a broad range of issues, from a failed drug test by a truck driver suing CBD makers using the Rico statute to an Ohio public employees claim that she was denied promotion and demoted because
she's a heterosexual. The first case that Justice has heard this term on Monday involve workers suing Alabama over unemployment benefits who are stuck in a sort of catch twenty two. Here's how Justice Sonya Sotomayor put it. See it really stuck in a state process with a loop that you can't get out of. Joining me is an expert in employment law, Anthony Ancidi, a partner scour Tony. The Justices kicked off the term with an employment law case tell us about it.
This case involves residents of Alabama who had applied for unemployment benefits during the COVID pandemic, and they challenged the way that the State of Alabama had handled their claims. They sought to bring claims under a federal Statute Section nineteen eighty three, and that allows individuals to sue the state government and officials of the state government for violating
the civil rights under federal law. They alleged that the state's policies and its practices and its procedures related to unemployment compensation applications violated the Social Security Act of nineteen thirty five, which is obviously a federal statute. They also claimed that they had suffered a violation of their due
process rights under the Constitution. This case comes to the US Supreme Court from the Alabama Supreme Court, which said that state law requires that the plaintiffs in the case first bring their claims to the state's Department of Labor and exhaust all administrative remedies that are available under state law, and according to the Alabama Court, that is supported by Supreme Court precedents, saying that that requirement does exist with
respect to these claims. So the issue is whether these workers who are seeking unemployment benefits need to exhaust state administrative remedies before they can bring a claim under a
federal civil rights law. The reason why this is going to be important, I think probably in these cases is because they didn't do that, and if it is determined that they were required to exhaust state administrative remedies, that that could jeopardize the federal claims that they're seeking to make under Section nineteen eighty three in this case.
And tell us about the Supreme Court's prior rulings in this area in the cases of Patsy versus Board of Regents and Felder versus Casey, and.
That's exactly what the Alabama Supreme Court relied upon. And the fact that the US Supreme Court then took this case up may mean that there has been a shift or a change in the Supreme Court's point of view with respect to this because the US Supreme Court has, of course complete discretion as to what cases it does or does not take, and it takes obviously a very
small handful of cases every year. And the fact that they have granted sorcherai that is the Latin word for the review that is granted in this case and in these cases generally, may suggest that there is a different point of view.
During the oral arguments, Justice Sonia Sotomayor told the plaintiff's lawyer that he was really stuck in a state process with a loop that you can't.
Get out of right. And I think again, this is one of those situations where it may seem like a technicality, but there is a lot of law with respect to these issues in the ployment context and in the administrative context that does exist. We see this all the time, where these administrative filings and processes, although they do sometimes take on somewhat of a pro forma status, meaning that the lawyer representing the claimant simply has to file something
and often can do it online. And in California, where I'm most familiar with administrative filings and the employment context, the state administrative agency California Civil Rights Department, will open and close the administrative file the very same day, and in almost every single case, the administrative apparatus is not
triggered and they don't get involved. But if the plaintiff has not done that first and proceeds directly to court without having exhausted those remedies, that's a means by which the defense can then say you can't proceed in the case because you should have at least given the administrative
apparatus or the agency some opportunity to prosecute this. I think some of this is a result of just the passage of time, because many of these civil rights statutes, for example, when they were first passed, they were not intended to directly lead to litigation or court cases or jury trials or any of this. They were supposed to be and they were often designed to be decided by administrative agencies, which is obviously a somewhat lesser formal proceeding
than having a case go to court. In the way in which the laws developed, though, and procedures have developed, and I think really administrative agencies have just been overwhelmed with the number of claims. The administrative apparatus is kind of atrophied in these cases, and so as a result of that, it may seem again like a technicality that that has to be done. But the law has not
been changed in most places. And that's I think what is probably at the root of what Justice Sodomayer was talking about.
So you think that the court is going to uphold the requirement of exhausting administrative remedies.
It seems like they should probably is something that ultimately would have to be decided or probably better decided and a remedied. If a remedy is going to be obtained from a legislative body that would look at something like this and make the determination that, as I said, some of these administrative agencies have atrophied, and there's really not as much of a reason today as there might have been thirty or forty years ago to require those processes.
Next week, the court is going to hear the case of medical marijuana versus Horn. This case intrigues me because it involves a truck driver, medical marijuana and the RICO Act.
Walked into a bar. Yeah, it's a group of unlikely entities and parties I suppose that are involved in this case, and the set of circumstances is somewhat unique. This was a commercial truck driver who was required to pass periodic drug screen and he was fired when he tested positive for THHC, which of course is the psychoactive compound that is part of the cannabis plant and that is triggered
in the event that one consumes or smokes cannabis. The driver claimed that he had not intentionally ingested THHC, but that he had used an elixir an interesting word for severe pain that was marked as containing only CBD, which is another compound that comes from marijuana. But which is not psychoactive and is not illegal. It's generally legal to consume CBD. So his argument was I essentially consume something that was mislabeled and by the way that mislabeling then
led to his being fired. He has now made this claim in the form of a assertion of fraud under the RICO the Racketeer Influenced in Corrupt Organizations Act, which typically originally was I think intended to reach mafia members but often gets thrown around these days in different types of cases. But it's known by the acronym RICO riico, and he's claiming that the CBD maker slash. I guess the thhc CBD maker in this case has conducted itself
in a way that it has violated. The RICO statute, usually, as I say, was typically used for targeting organized crime, but it does allow plaintiffs to bring certain civil cases for fraud and potentially collect triple damages. So in this case, the damages that he'll be seeking presumably will be the lost wages and benefits that flowed from his loss of employment. I suppose there may be other damages that he's going
to seek as well. This case found itself to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, and that court allowed the driver to proceed with his claim. But other appeals courts have tossed similar lawsuits where there was an attempt to seek monetary damages under RICO for personal injuries. I don't know that it's arisen previously in the context of CBD THCHC, but that happens to be the factual
scenario in this case. And so in this case, the CBD manufacturer wants the Supreme Court to dismiss the RICO claim, asserting that it's merely a garden variety products liability suit and that it should not be able to proceed under the Rico statute.
There's a split in the circuits on this. Do you think the Supreme Court took the case to overturn the Second Circuit?
It sounds like they might. Again. You never can tell, because it certainly is not the case that every time the US Supreme Court, or really any appellate court takes a case when they have discretion that they are accepting review to affirm. I guess the inclination is, why not just leave well enough alone? If they're just going to affirm the lower court. You typically think that they will do something different, but they obviously don't always affirm the
lower court. And in this situation, as I said, there is a conflict among the circuits, and that's typically when the US Supreme Court does get involved. So they may grant a review in a case in which one of seven circuits rules one and the other sixth rule another way. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to affirm or reverse that one circuit. It just means they're trying to resolve whether the other six were right and this one was wrong, or vice versa. And I guess we're not going to
really know for a time. We should also say these are all cases that are in the current term of the US Supreme Court, which begins every year on the first Monday of October, and the term then usually concludes with a great degree of drama and fireworks in late
June early July. I've often said that the Supreme Court has an unerring sense of drama and of entertainment in some ways, I suppose because they saved the biggest cases for the last as they did the last term when they had a number of very significant opinions that came out in late June. They're almost all out, I think, without exception before the fourth of July holiday.
Absolutely.
See.
My theory is they're not saving the best for a last, They're saving the most controversial for last, and then they take off on their three month vacation.
But you know that's perhaps and avoid any demonstrations some of their opinions.
On November fifth, there will be oral arguments in a case involving Overton exemptions, of.
Course, I know, you know, and we should mention that November fifth, something else is happening that day, really election den Yes, So this this case involves Again it sounds like somewhat of a dry issue, but I think it's an extremely important one, especially for employers and employees. That's the context in which it arises, and it arises under a statute known as the Fair Labor Standards Act, which is a federal law that protects wage an hour practices
of employees and employers that governs those situations. And the question here has to do with the preponderance of evidence standard of proof versus what's called the clear and convincing standard of evidence. And I should say that there are at least three differing standards of proof that typically arise in the case. In most civil cases, you have the
preponderance of evidence standard. Law students are taught that that means that the plaintiff has to prove basically about fifty one percent of the evidence in their favorite that's kind of a rough way of saying it. But it doesn't have to be a huge amount in the favor of the plaintiff, meaning that the burden of proof is not that particularly burden some but the preponderance means that more than not the evidence needs to point in the favor of the plaintiff in order for the plaintiff to win.
The other standard that we're all pretty familiar with just from watching TV shows is the beyond the reasonable doubt standard, which is a much higher burden of proof. That is the criminal standard of evidence that is required to get a criminal conviction, So the prosecution needs to prove that the defendant in a criminal case violated the law beyond
the reasonable doubt. Somewhere floating between those two standards is the clear and convincing evidence standard, meaning it's got to be a little bit more than half, but a lot less than what you would need for beyond a reasonable doubt,
their floats somewhere in between. And that's the very question that that issue in this case, as comes out of Richmond, Virginia, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, The question is does an employer have to prove, because the employee does have the burden of proof on these cases, that when an employee claims that they've been misclassified, meaning that they didn't get overtime and they should have, they were misclassified for some reason as exempt from overtime, does the employer have
to prove that the employee was properly classified by the clear and convincing standard, which is that medium proof standard, or just the preponderance of the evidence standard, which is an easier burden to meet. Obviously, the plaintiffs in a case like this are going to be pushing for clear and convincing because that would mean it's going to be harder for the employer to win, and in this case,
that's going to be the issue. A number of federal circuit Courts of Appeals have already weighed in on this, including the Fifth, sixth, seventh, ninth, ten to eleven, and they've all applied the lower standard of preponderance of the evidence. In this case, the Fourth Circuit Court said that the clear and convincing standard is the one that applies.
I'm betting on the fifth, sixth, seventh, ninth, tenth, and eleventh Circuits in this case.
Yes, If the number of courts is the deciding factor, then I think you're probably right. The Fourth seems to be standing alone in connection with its determination on this case.
Coming up next a case claiming reverse discrimination. I'm June Grosso. When you're listening to Bloomberg, the Supreme Court is scheduled to hear at least five cases involving employment law and a range of issues. I've been talking to Anthony on CD, a partner at Prosskauer. Next, we have a case with six circuits split on former employees suing under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
This is an interesting case and it could affect obviously many many employees, former employees, retired employees, in particular, as the population continues to age. I saw statistic the other day it said that more people are are reaching their sixty fifth birthday this year. Then I guess has ever occurred on planet early or certainly in the United States. You know, it's sort of the tail end of the Baby Boomers have now reached retirement age in many instances,
and that's really what's that issue. In this particular case, this was a plaintiff a former firefighter for the City of Sanford, Florida, and she retired due to Parkinson's disease in twenty eighteen. She had served as a firefighter for about nineteen years when she joined the fire department in nineteen ninety nine. The city's policy was that it would provide free health insurance until age sixty five from employees
who were retiring due to a disability. In two thousand and three, the city changed its plan and it limited the health insurance subsidy that disability retirees would get to twenty four months post retirement, meaning it wouldn't go until the age of sixty five. It would only go for
twenty four months. In this case, former firefighter who did retire due to a disability out suit before her subsidy was set to expire, and she said that this change in policy was a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Rehabilitation Act, and then some statutory provisions under Florida law, as well as the Equal Protection clause under the Constitution. The district court dismissed and granted some re judgment on other claims, but otherwise disposed of her case and ruled
in favor of the city. And the reason they did that again sound somewhat like a technicality, but obviously a very important one. They ruled that the statutes that she was proceeding under only applied to plaintiffs who quote hold or desire an employment position with the defendant at the time of the defendants allegedly wrongful act, and of course she neither held nor did she desire to hold, which really is a different word for saying an applicant unemployment
position at the time of the alleged wrongful act. And so the precise question is ken a retiree such as the plaintiff in this case, sue for discrimination under the Americans with Disabilities Act over post employment fringe benefits that, had she said, been taken away on the basis of a discriminatory policy.
Does this come up often, Tony, that a retiree is trying to sue over the ADA.
You know, I don't think so. It's not something that I've seen a lot of. But again, since we're having a lot more retirees who are moving into that status. I would not be surprised if there are not other cases like this in the very near future where policies have been changed, because what is common, I can tell you, is the pairing down and in some cases eliminating the
actual benefits that employees have received. There was a period of time when retirees, you know of the our companies and many other industries in the United States, would receive what's called a defined benefit plan, meaning they knew that when they retired they would get x hundred or thousand
dollars a month as part of their retirement. Because those policies became so expensive due to inflation and and just any number of other factors, most employers have long since shifted away from what are called defined benefit plans like that to what's called a defined contribution plan, which is more like a four toh one K, which is there's a certain maximum amount you can contribute to those plans, or that the employer will contribute on your behalf, but
there's no guarantee you're going to get x amount at the time that you retire. If you invest in the stock market, which of course the stock market over the last seventy or eighty years has had a fairly good track record ten percent plus. I think the returns on average over that period of time. You may very well be able to sort of ballpark what your retirement benefits are, but that's not exactly the same thing as knowing for sure what you're going to have plopped into your bank
account every month. And that's what a defined benefit plan is, and those are few and far between these days.
Just last Friday, the Court agreed to take a case challenging a rule by an Ohio public employee who claim she's a victim of reverse discrimination.
Yes, you saved perhaps the most controversial case so far this term for last June. As I know, you have that unerring sense of drama like the Supreme Court.
So you've been accused of worse though.
So as you say, the review petition was granted just last Friday. There's no oral argument yet schedule, but it will be heard and decided before the fourth of July twenty twenty five. And in this case, the employee sues the Ohio Department of Youth Services, where she had worked for I believe several decades of public service. She had been earlier in her employment assigned to a new supervisor who was gay. She I should say, is a white, heterosexual,
female former employee. She was assigned to a new supervisor who was gay. In twenty nineteen. She applied to be the department's bureau chief of quality, so she was seeking a promotion. She did not receive that position. In a few days later, she learned that she was being removed from her administrator position, the lower position that she had.
The decision to remove her from the administrator position was made by not the gay supervisor, who was the first level supervisor above her position, but the second level supervisor and the department's director, both of whom were straight. So this becomes a somewhat problem issue for her in this case because the fact that she's being supervised by a gay employee seemingly had no effect at least as the case is currently framed upon. The demotion and the failure
to give her the promotion. The department then awarded her former administrator position to a twenty five year old gay mad The department then selected a gay woman to serve as its bureau chief of quality. She then filed claims of discrimination the straight white female employee. She filed claims a discrimination based on her sexual orientation and gender against the department. She said that she was discriminated against on
the base of being a heterosexual female. What happens next, The district Court, which is the trial court in the southern District of Ohio, grants some rey judgment to the employer and dismisses the case, and the Sixth Circuit in this case, which is based in Cincinnati, Ohio, affirms that dismissal. The basis for the dismissal and the affirming of the dismissal is as follows. They say that this plaintiff did not establish the necessary quote background circumstances close quote to
sustain her claim of sexual orientation. So what's going on in this case? Why is the Supreme Court interested in it? The reason the Supreme Court's interested in it is because this element that both the district court, the trial court, and the appellate court applied, that is, requiring the employee to prove these background circumstances only exists if the plaintiff happens to be in the majority, meaning if it's a white employee, heterosexual employee, or in this case, I guess
for gender reasons female. I guess there may be more females than males. I'm not sure how that's going to work out. But the real question is whether or not there is an additional burden placed upon a so called majority plaintiff that does not exist for a minority plaintiff or a plaintiff that is a member of a protected class that is a minority. Typically, in a discrimination case under Title seven, which is the federal anti discrimination law, an employee must show first of all, they belonged to
a protected class. Two, they did well in their position, but were terminated, or they were demoted, or they didn't get a promotion, some other adverse action happened, and then they were third replaced by or treated worse than someone outside of the protected class. But if the person who's challenging the adverse action, as this plaintiff is, is a member of the traditional majority, for example, a white employee bringing a race discrimination claim or a male employee bringing
a sex discrimination claim, that does not apply. We've seen in this case that plaintiff must prove an additional element, and that is they must demonstrate background circumstances which proves that their employer is the unusual one. That's the language of the court, unusual one who discriminates against the majority to sustain their claims. And this is another example, as you mentioned earlier, of all kinds of courts at the
appellate level ruling in different ways. There again, is there very much a circuit split on this question of whether there really needs to be this additional factor proven by the plaintiff if they are a member of a majority group.
How do you think the Supreme Court, without hearing the oral arguments, are seeing the briefing, do you have a feel.
For how they Yeah, My feel is that this is the next shoe. I don't think it's going to be the last shoe, but this is the next shoe falling in the affirmative action changes that have begun already at the Supreme Court level, which we saw last year in
twenty twenty three with respect to college admissions. Everybody who does represent employers and employees in the employment bar throughout the United States is waiting for the US Supreme Court to take further action with respect to both affirmative action in the workplace and now in this case, discrimination claims
in the workplace. And my suspicion is that there will be a split in the Supreme Court, and I suspect it will be probably either a six y three or a five to four, depending on the Chief Justice rules in favor of abandoning the background circumstances test and saying, as some circuits have said, and indeed, as one of the concurring judges said in this case, that discrimination is discrimination, and if a white employee, or a male employee, or
anybody who's member of a quote majority group is discriminated against on the basis of their being a part of that group, they have a right to proceed with an anti discrimination claim irrespective of whether they have these so called background circumstances, in addition to the other things that a member of a minority group would have to show.
I agree with you one hundred percent, and I am going to play this when we get the decision, we'll see if it's six.
To three, I mean, if past is prologue, I suppose then we have a pretty good idea of what's going to happen.
We really do. Thanks so much, Tony for giving us this preview of the term. That's Anthony Oncidi of Proskauer coming up next, TikTok gets sued again. This is Bloomberg. More than a dozen states and the District of Columbia sued TikTok this week, saying the popular short term video app is designed to be addictive to kids and harms their mental health. The lawsuits stem from a national investigation into TikTok launched in March of twenty twenty two by
a bipartisan coalition of attorneys general. The lawsuits claim that TikTok design features that addict children to the platform, such as the ability to scroll endlessly through content, push notifications that come with built in buzzes, and face filters that create unattainable appearances for users. A TikTok spokesman said they strongly disagree with the claims, many of which they believed
to be inaccurate and misleading. Joining me is Eric Goldman, a professor at Santa Clara University Law School and co director of the school's High Tech Law Institute. What are the claims here against TikTok?
State's trains General are taking a position that TikTok has designed its service in a way that hurts its users, and that its design is both legally problematic, as well as its failure to disclose some of the information it had was also problematic.
The California Attorney General Rob Bonta said that California's investigation found that TikTok offers unique safety features for users in China that are not available to users in the US, including usage time limits. But I thought there were default screen time limits and other different safeguards that they've introduced.
To mean that observation is frankly irrelevant. Every service customizes for local conditions, whether that's because the users have different needs or because the law is different. For example, in other countries they don't have the First Amendment, and so service in the US just routinely look different than they do in other parts of the world.
Washington's lawsuit accused TikTok of facilitating sexual exploitation of underage users, saying TikTok's live streaming and virtual currency operate like a virtual strip club with no age restrictions. Is that the use of exaggeration to show a point or can they prove that?
Certainly, any efforts to engage in sexual predation on any site is troubling, and I wish that didn't occur. I
wish that wasn't part of the human condition. However, it's easy enough for the regulators to point to specific actions that they don't like, but it's harder to talk about how TikTok might design a service that would prevent those actions from ever taking place, and some of the solutions that might prevent it would have other collateral damage that could to materially degrade the service for everybody, or make it impossible for anyone to talk to each other, And
so it's not really super insightful to talk about the virtual crime scene without contemplating the overall ecosystem.
Are these suits under different states consumer protection laws?
That's my understanding. So each s they filed its own complaint, and each complaint that would have referenced its local statutes as part of the allegations, so it's.
Not one class action lawsuit.
Well have to be a class action lawsuit for it to be consolidated. So over forty state attorney generals are coordinating their efforts in a single challenge against Facebook, But in this case, for reasons that are unclear to me, each state is doing their own thing, but obviously they're coordinated as well. But each state is incurring significantly higher enforcement costs than if they were to combine their resources.
Do you think that this is a strong lawsuit?
The short answers, we don't know how strong these lawsuits are because none of the similar lawsuits have reached a final resolution that answers the key legal questions. There have been many challenges in many different venues against social media services for a variety of alleged misdeeds, and many of us are still working through the court system waiting appeal or additional review by higher courts. And until we hear
from the higher courts, the data is noisy. We can't really tell where the line is today legally, and so it's hard to judge the efficacy of these particular suits until we get additional data from the appellate courts.
I feel like another day, another lawsuit against TikTok. Is there a point in this sort of piling on? It seems like there are many many lawsuits against TikTok already.
It's a great point, and I would take it one step further. California recently passed the law that was designed to target alleged addiction of users by the social media that won't go into effect for a few years. California's involvement in this particular enforced action is basically trying to move up the time period of that law before when the legislature thinks that the community is ready for it.
So basically Bonta is jumping the gun on a statute that's designed to accomplish the exact same goals, which is an unusual and somewhat troubling allocation of prosecutorial resources. Why not wait until the statue comes in ef fact that the legislature is carefully crafted and it believes requires some
compliance time to go into effect. Having said that, you know, I think that all of the lawsuits and the statutes are going to be sort of substantial criticism when they go up on appeal, and so nobody really knows the laws, and I'm the investment in new lawsuits without uncertainty is just in a sense, piling on.
As TikTok spokesperson pointed to the safeguards that were introduced by the company, including default screen time limits, family pairing, and privacy defaults for minors under sixteen, Do you see that as their defense or might they have another defense?
It's impossible to talk about a defense until we understand precisely what problem the state ages are concerned about, and for all of the negativity they introduce, it's not entirely clear that we can precisely identify the problem and the
solution that would ameliorate that problem. So, for example, when we talk about this concept of addiction that's not necessarily in a clinical sense, that might be more of a lay term, and so we don't really have a scientifically authorized protocol for how to deal with the clinical condition
of social media addiction. So in that sense, everyone's kind of guessing at what actually will help and what troubles means when the state decides to put its finger on the scale of those guesses and say we're going to side for you, with no clinical evidence to back us up, and then no consideration for how the solution might actually not solve the problem or actually might make things worse.
So the FTC sued TikTok in August for violating the federal Children's Privacy Law. Is that a different kind of suit than this or are they all based on the same sort of allegations?
All of them derived from a core impulse, which is that the governments decided that it wants to determine how social services should operate. It's tired of letting services negotiate
that directly with their audience. So whether it's framed as a privacy lawsuit or an addiction targeting lawsuit, or a statute that designed to hard code specific operational practices, they're all reflecting this basic underlying impulse that the government's taking over here, and they're going to decide for everyone.
I mean, they might have waited to see if TikTok is even in existence in a few years. What's happening with TikTok battling the US law that could ban.
The app Congress enacted the law earlier this year that forces TikTok to change its ownership structure and failing that, to be kicked out of the US market entirely. And I still find people who have no idea that Congress has literally banned TikTok. It's really a shocking development when people think about it. Everyone, including Congress, contemplated that the
law would be subject to a legal challenge. That legal challenge is currently pending with the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, But the real action is going to come from the Supreme Court. Whatever the DC Circuit says is going to go to the Supreme Court and then we're going to get more of our answer. So until we hear for the Supreme Court, everything is pretty speculative.
The oral arguments at the DC Circuit didn't seem to be leaning in TikTok's favor.
Whatever the DC Circuit opinion says will be of interest, but it's going to be subject to review by the Supreme Court. So I've not invested a lot of emotional energy and the possibility that they're going to do something weird, because it really doesn't matter. They're just warming up act before the Supreme Court, you know, they're like the opening knack to the main scene.
And what about the lawsuits by private plaintiffs in California federal and state court, So.
That battle is well ahead of this battle, and so it's entirely likely that we're going to get answers from that court case that will influence this one. And again raises the consideration that maybe the AGS pulled the trigger a little bit early. They didn't wait to see what happened with those cases and didn't then iterate based on the less from those cases. They're basically replicating the same
claims that have been made elsewhere. So there's an enormous sense of deja vous about this particular stive enforcement actions.
There certainly is. Thanks so much, Eric. That's Professor Eric Goleman of Santa Clara University School of Law. And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Podcast. Remember you can always get the latest legal news by subscribing and listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, Slash Law. I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg
