Challenge to the FTC's Independence - podcast episode cover

Challenge to the FTC's Independence

Aug 08, 202523 min
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Episode description

William Kovacic, former FTC Chairman and a Professor at the George Mason University School of Law, discusses the implications of President Trump’s attack on the independence of the Federal Trade Commission. June Grasso hosts.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

Speaker 2

The Trump administration has been mounting an unprecedented campaign to reign in independent agencies and increase executive authority. To that end, President Trump has fired more than a dozen leaders of independent agencies without cause. What stands out in the long list is Trump firing the two Democratic members of the Federal Trade Commission. Rebecca Kelly. Slaughter is fighting her dismissal in court, arguing that it was illegal.

Speaker 3

Only one time in history has a president attempted to remove an FTC commissioner over a policy disagreement. It was ninety years ago President Roosevelt tried to remove Commissioner Humphrey, and in the face of the clear language of the statute, the Supreme Court said that was illegal, that the statute is constitutional, and that FTC commissioner and other commissioners of multi member bipartisan agencies cannot be simply removed because the president doesn't agree with them.

Speaker 2

But the Justice Department has said it's going to ask the Supreme Court to reverse that ninety year old president called Humphrey's executor. Legal experts say they'll be broad ramifications if the President can fire FTC commissioners at will, and the agency is no longer independent. My guest is William Kavasik, former FDC chair and a professor at the George Mason University School of Law. Bill tell us about the president firing Slaughter.

Speaker 1

Yeah, the President decided that he has the authority to simply fire members of the FTC without any cause, and this contradicts a nineteen thirty five Supreme Court decision called Humphrey's Executor that said that FTC commissioners can be removed only for good cause. The President clearly wanted to remove the two Democrats from the FTC, Rebecca Kelly Slaughter and

Alvaro Beadoya, and he simply dismissed them. So he decided not just for the FTC, but I think as part of a program for government generally, decided to assert executive authority to control more directly who can serve on these regulatory agencies.

Speaker 2

Slaughter won her first battle in court. A federal judge reinstated her last month, although that reinstatement has been put on hold pending an appeals court decision. Explain the judge's reasons for reinstating her.

Speaker 1

Now. She concluded that the president's authority is defined by the nineteen thirty five Supreme Court decision, and the nineteen thirty five Supreme Court decision said that the president can remove Federal Trade Commissioners only for good cost, that the limitation on removal was established in the FTC Statute adopted in nineteen fourteen, and that the Supreme Court's interpretation of that statute limited the circumstances in which the present and

it could remove FPC commissioners. Judge Ali Khan and the District Court opinion concluded that those authorities are controlling, that the statute itself makes clear the conditions enrich removal can take place, and the Supreme Court upheld the limitation on executive power, and she said the President contradicted that approach, and until the Supreme Court says otherwise about it's nineteen thirty five decision, that decision is binding on me and commissioners,

Slaughter is entitled to be reinstated.

Speaker 2

It seems like Humphrey's executor is in jeopardy at the Supreme Court. In July, the Court allowed the Trump administration to remove three democratic members of the Consumer Product's Safety Commission that were fired by Trump and then reinstated by a federal judge. And it may the Court rule that the democratic members of the NLRB and Merit Systems Protection Board couldn't return to their jobs because the government was likely to be able to show that the agency's exercised

considerable independent power. So does it seem like the Supreme Court is ready to overturn Humphrey's Executor.

Speaker 1

As you say, June, The Court's given a number of hints that it is ready to revisit Humphrey's executor and to overturn it. The Court has cautioned that every burn in the road that we're not making a final decision on the merit, that that fuller evaluation of the merit of Humphrey and its vitality today remains to take place.

So they've said we're not deciding now, but the way in which they've written the decisions that you referred to, even these preliminary rulings where they're not offering a final view about the legitimacy of the challenges at issue, have given hints that at least three members of the Court think that Humphreys must be overturned, maybe two more members of the Court are wavering in their support of Humphreys.

I suppose if you were making a wager now about whether Humphrey's will live through the end of twenty twenty six, I suppose the way to bet would be to say no, that it won't. I don't think the possibilities for Humphrey's

executors to survive have been extinguished. There's still possibilities that the Court might reflect on the basis for the creation of the limit on removal, might think more completely about existing controls that the President already has over administrative agency discretion, to realize that the choice here is not between having

no control and absolute control over appointments and removal. The president already has a number of tools at the president's disposal to influence the way in which the Federal Trade Commission and similar agencies operate. The real issue here is whether that control must be absolute, and the Court might reflect on that in a more elaborate way and come

to a different conclusion. But that's a long way of saying that Humphrey's Executor appears to be in peril, and that when the Court does come at some point, perhaps in twenty twenty six, to confront the continuing vitalent of Hunfrees executive, it will probably say that we've decided to change our minds.

Speaker 2

Bill. Is the FDC right now a fully independent agency?

Speaker 1

When you look at the design, organization and operation of the agency, I think we discover that the English word independence is badly ill suited to describe the Commission's place in the political landscape. You know, first, the President gets to designate the chair from among existing members of the Commission, and that only takes signing a letter that says you're

the chair. That comes with a lot of power, because since nineteen forty nine nineteen fifty, the chair of the so called independent agencies has been the chief operating officer and the chief executive of these agencies and exercises extraordinary authority as part of that reshuffling of government power that took place in the Government Reorganization Act of nineteen forty nine and a reorganization plan that put in place for the FTC in nineteen fifty. So that already gives the

president a lot of power. Of course, the White House submits the budget on behalf of the United States to the Congress. The FDC does not do that. Directly, so the FTC's budget requests have to be filtered through the white The White House controls whether FTC officials can go overseas. The Executive Branch gives permission to FDC officials to travel abroad for government purposes, So if they don't want the FTC roaming the global landscape speaking on its own, they

can stop that right away. The Department of Justice intervenes in a number of instances in the cases of the

FTC to oppose the FTC. This is a short list of ways in which the FTC is not independent, and in a broader sense, when we look at Congress, the Congress, of course controls the FTC's budget, and every year the FTC has to go ask for money, I would say that an agency that every year has to ask Congress for an allowance is not very independent, no more independent than a college student is going to their parents at the beginning every school year and saying, top up my allowance.

That independence is severely constrained, and maybe a better way to describe the FTC's relationship to the political process is semi autonomous with respect to some functions like adjudication, But independence is a badly inaccurate way to describe its place in the political ecology.

Speaker 2

Let's talk about what would happen the changes if the FDC loses the independence it now has. It's been said that one casualty would be the in house adjudication system.

Speaker 1

I think that's right too, and I think the administrative in house adjudication system ultimately topples. For this reason, I think crucial to the legitimacy of any judicial dispute resolution tribunal is some degree of autonomy. This is where the autonomy is most important for legitimacy. Once times a parent that the president can simply fire Federal Trade commissioners because he doesn't like their work, doesn't like their philosophy, I

think that system unravels. You can't have courts where the judges are aware that a decision or a specific approach taken in a given case could cause their dismissal, and the FTC commissioners serve as adjudicators when the FTC uses that internal mechanism. So, I think a domino that falls if Humphrey's executor is overturned is the perceived legitimacy and functioning of the administrative adjudication system That disappears.

Speaker 2

And even now we're seeing motions to dismiss FTC cases, eleging that the FTC structure is unconstitutional because of this weight over Humphreys, I.

Speaker 1

Think the deeper threat to the FTC's effectiveness is that when it goes to court, it has always had the capacity to tell the court the positions we are taking are the result of our best professional judgment, and as an expert body, we are asking for respect for our judgments because they're based on our accumulated experience, our research in the field of competition and consumer protection, and the expertise that individual members of the Commission bring to the

analysis of specific cases. When you put all of those together, you have a key element of professional judgment that might not be always correct, but it deserves respect because it is more likely to be correct than the judgment of individual federal judges, the parties, and the cases. That is that that judgment is worthy of respect. It doesn't mean that the FDC is always going to prevail in court.

The moment that courts perceive that you are using your authority not because of your best professional judgment, but because you are simply an extension of the political process and you are serving the specific interests or whims and the chief executive, that element of professional judgment and respect disappear. They're gone. So I think a consequence ipumphrase dies is that the Commission loses the ability to scand before the

courts and say you can trust us. And in so many ways, that's what government agencies ask court is trust us because we are the professionals. We're using professional judgment, and that's why you can have confidence in the judgments we're making. You take protection against removal except for a good cause away the basis for asserting that respect disappears, and I think it means that, simply stated, you have a harder time winning your cases when you go to court.

Speaker 2

Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lan Show, I'll continue this conversation with former FTC chair Bill Kvasik. We'll talk about a bill to consolidate anti trust authority solely in the Justice Department. You're listening to Bloomberg. I'm talking to former FTC chair William Kavasik about the Trump administration's campaign to reign in independent agencies and increase executive power.

Speaker 4

Bill. Is there any argument that you see for a president having the ability to fire commissioners at will.

Speaker 1

I guess the best argument would be this. I mean, suppose you're an incoming president and the existing configuration of the commission means that there is nobody from your political party on the board. Imagine a commission of five and you have two vacancies, and the vacancies ordinarily would be

your party, but nobody's been confirmed. In that insense, you can make an argument that the president ought to be able to put the president's preferred person on the board, although even there they have to go through Senate confirmation. They'd have to go through Senate confirmation. And if you have a vacancy, you can you can appoint somebody to fill that spot. I guess the other argument one could make is that in d need, these agencies exercise significant discretion.

They have considerable powers. The FPC has a broad mandate with a number of policymaking tools to implement it, and those are significant economically important. And if I'm the president, I'm saying I have to have the ability to determine

how this large machine of government functions and where it's going. Now, again, as I've said before, I think the president already has a lot of tools to influence that and what you have in the status quo embodied in cases like Humphreys is basically a bargain between the legislature and the President over how oversight functions will be allocated. Some of those functions reside in the White House today already, such as the ability to designate the scare among members of the Commission.

Others such as congressional oversight control of the budget, reside in the Congress. One way to put it is that it is shared oversight and accountability that engages the Congress, the President, and indeed the Federal Court. So my view, and this is very much based on my experience that the FTC is a member of the Commission for a year is chair that I was always aware of the capacity of the White House to shape what we were doing in key respects. That is, from the place that

we occupied on Pennsylvania Avenue. I was always aware of both ends of the avenue, that both of them had a lot to do to shape the environment in which we worked in. And when I looked out the window at the front of the building, they're also sat the Federal Courthouse for the District of Columbia. So I always knew that we were working in an environment when all three could hold us to account, and I was aware of the history that showed that they certainly would.

Speaker 2

Slaughter has said there are two lines of pushback, one legal, the other political. Quote.

Speaker 4

The legal fight we're having in the court, but the political fight is in the court of public opinion. Do you think that the public is aware of what's happening with these agencies?

Speaker 1

For the broader public, I have re doubts. I suspect that there are many in the public, for a variety of reasons, who are aware that there's something called the Federal Trade Commission. But if you gave the ordinary American citizen a short quiz, true false questions or multiple choice questions, I don't know how many would answer it in a way that reflected a real understanding of how these agencies

function and what they do. So, if we're talking about the US public writ large, I doubt there's a keen awareness of the governance mechanism of the FPC and what removal of commissioners does to that framework. The larger public might be aware of efforts by the President to consolidate

power in the White House. They've probably noticed in this barely six months of the second Trump presidency, that the President is doing a number of things to exercise power, imposing tariffs, for example, setting in motion dramatic reductions in force for individual real agencies. And maybe they're aware of the dismissals of heads of different institutions at a high level. They may be aware that the presidents seeking to exert

more control over how the government operates. So that awareness I suspect exists, and certainly to the extent of the public she is speaking about, includes the Congress of the United States. I assume that more keenly than the ordinary citizen, they are very aware of the reallocation of power that's taking place in Washington and ought to be concerned about, especially because in the case of the FTC, when Congress created the FTC in nineteen fourteen, their unmistakable view is

that the FTC would be accountable through the Congress. First and foremost. Here are debate in the Senate, for example, where members of the Senate asked, as part of the colloquy that takes place in the legislative debates, aren't we giving a lot of fairly open ended power to the federal Trade Commission, shouldn't we specify more carefully what the relevant offenses might be? And the defenders of the FTC Act has ultimately adopted said, you need a flexible, adaptable mandate.

That's why we're putting it that way. And if the STC ever misused that mandate, we, the Congress that created it, could abolish it. In the words of one senator, we created it, we could destroy it. So there was no doubt in the minds of Congress that this institution, with its considerable authority, will answer first and foremost to us. So the Congress ought to be keenly aware of the process by which the relevant oversight, responsibility and accountability mechanisms are changing.

Speaker 2

Can you give us the broader reasons why you think the FTC's independence is critical.

Speaker 1

The broader, high level reason is that the FTC exercises significant economic policy making functions and as broad regulatory responsibilities.

I think in any economy, and certainly in our market economy, the business community, the citizens as a whole have to have confidence that that authority is being used in a principled way, and then when it's used, it reflects truly the exercise of high quality professional judgment from an agency that has special expertise broad experience, and then when it's making those judgments, it's making it on the basis of

sound policy analysis. That assumption and confidence vanishes if the head of State can simply designate outcomes or point the agency in a specific direction. I mean, it's the same concern we have about the Federal Reserve Board and monetary policy. Notice how the markets lose their minds when it appears as though the Fed might lose that insallation from direct

political influence over the monetary system. I can't quite assert that the FTC occupies the same position in the minds of business leaders and others about its role in the economy, but I think it is nonetheless and important pillar of

the regulatory mechanism in the US. If you take away some measure of autonomy, especially in the decision to prosecute, the decision to impose sanctions, the decision to do things that in a broad sense hurt, you take away that presumption of good professional judgment and autonomy with respect to those functions. I think it underminds confidence in the regulatory process itself, and at a higher level, for our entire

political economy. And our stature in the world. For the last thirty plus years, we have been telling the world that these key economic regulatory functions must have some element of protection with respect to these fundamental decisions about prosecuting cases, initiating rules, that there has to be an accountability regime.

But you can't have political leadership telling the agency to punish enemies, reward friends, and otherwise simply be party to a negotiation between top political leadership and individual business interests. So once you do that, confidence in the entire system of governments tends to erode. And if the Humphries executive protections against removal except for good cause disappear, that's a step in the direction of diminishing that confidence and legitimacy for the regulatory process.

Speaker 2

I want to get.

Speaker 4

Your input on the bill to consolidate federal antitrust authority solely within the Justice Department's Antitrust Division, so that would lead the FTC as a consumer protection agency. What's your take on that.

Speaker 1

I think it's a bad time to do that. I think the question of whether you want two federal agencies to occupy in many ways the same policy domain is a very useful and important issue. That's worthy of debate. I would hope that that debate would involve a more nuanced than careful consideration of what the FTC has brought to the mix. I mentioned the FTC because the assumption always is, as you say, all that authority will be

given to the Department of Justice. The main reason I think it's a bad tub to do this is that in the area of all things digital and information systems platforms, there is a growing global awareness that the solution to problems observed in that area and the disciplines that have to be brought to bear to come up with good policy foundations include competition law, antitrust, consumer protection law, and

privacy data protection law. There is one agency in the world that has all three of those mandates under its umbrella in its portfolio. That's a Federal Trade Commission, which also has distinctive information gathering powers and report writing powers, has a collection of policy making tools that can bring all of these policy domains to bear on specific issues.

I think in a time when we are seeing that policy making involving information systems digital AI involve an intersection of these different policy areas, I think that's exactly the wrong time to divest the FPC of its Competition Policy mandate, also because I think the Competition Policy Mandate has brought

useful discipline and direction to the consumer protection program. And if you sever the competition mandate from the Consumer Protection mandate, I think the consumer Protection Mandate and the Data Protection Mandate they both suffer.

Speaker 2

It's always great to have you on Bill, Thanks so much. That's former FTC Chair William Kavasik, a professor at George Mason University School of Law. And that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight

at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm Jim Grosso and your listen listening to Bloomberg.

Speaker 4

Hmm

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