This is breaking the loose from Bloomberg. A jury here in New York has reached a verdict in the Sam Bankman freed fraud trial. He has been found guilty on all seven counts that include fraud and conspiracy. Let's bring in Bloomberg Radio legal analyst June Grosso, also host of Bloomberg Law. June, is this a surprise to you?
It's not a surprise because the evidence against him was overwhelming, and in the closing arguments, the prosecutor kept mentioning, if you believe Caroline Allison, if you believe Gary Wong, if you believe this one, then he's guilty. And it was really a masterful close. But I think, what did it is? Sam Bankminfried took stand in his own defense, And when a defendant takes the stand that way, the whole thing in the jury's mind becomes a credibility game. How credible
do they find him? And though he was good on direct during cross he was caught up a lot by the prosecution. He said I don't know, I don't know, over and over again, and he had a problem with all the statements he's made. He made in between the time that STX went bankrupt and the time when he was arrested, So he talked to so many people, reporters and all, and did interviews after interviews, and he was
confronted with some of the statements he said there. So it was a really difficult, uphill battle and the only thing that would have saved him is if he convinced one jur or two jurors you know he was, were sympathetic to him, and he convinced them that he didn't have fraudulent intent as if it didn't happen.
You and I were talking earlier today and I asked you whether there was the basis for a successful appeal here? Is there one?
Well, I don't know about successful because appeals of criminal convictions are so difficult. It's so difficult to get a criminal conviction overturned. But the defense certainly has a lot
of grounds to work with. I mean, the judge made so many rulings that were against the defense here, and one of the ones that comes to my mind, actually couple come to mind, but one is that the judge decided not to allow him pursue and advice an advice of council defense, which is a defense that my lawyers you know, I relied on my lawyers in this case and that's why I did what I did. So that
was a big thing. And the judge also didn't allow some of the expert witnesses you wanted to call, so in the end, it basically was Sam Bankman breed testifying in his own defense. So those are grounds were appealed, certainly. I also want to say, Doug that keeping the jury, but telling the jury that you're going to stay here till eight fifteen and then they come in at you know,
close to eight o'clock. This is like a typical Friday verdict where the jurors feel pressured to come in with a vertic and I think, you know, the judge keeping them over time didn't help them. Bankment freed despite the pizzas that he got in the Ubers.
When it comes to sentencing, what we are learning now is that he's been found guilty of all seven charges that include fraud and conspiracy. In terms of what he could be facing, is it not decades in prison?
It is decades in prison. But you know, the judge doesn't have to sentence him to decades in prison. I mean, look at what happened in San Francisco with I can't think of her name right now. You know the the blood chesting machines, Yes, yes, yes, so Elizabeth Holmes. So you know she got under twenty years at fourteen. I think it was so, I mean, he doesn't have to sentence him to that much. But a lot of money was lost here and that's in the calculation, and you know,
we'll see what the probation office is. We'll see what the prosecutors ask for. I mean, the prosecutors are probably gonna try to max out a lot of this because they never offered him a deal. From what I understand and from what was sit in court, they offered deals to Caroline Ellison, Gary Wong and the third person who was the engineer, but they didn't offer him a deal. So I think they're trying to send a message to cryptocurrency and everyone else that they're going to be tough
on this. So I think they're probably going to ask for a long sentenceier.
So now you mentioned the three witnesses former colleagues of bankman Freed. Now that the case against bankman Freed is essentially over, the jury has found him guilty on these seven counts, will we get kind of sentencing or punishment for those who kind of dealt with the government in cooperating, but they themselves face you know, some type of punishment, do they not, Well, yes they do.
And you know, I have talked to different people have different feelings about whether they're going to get jail time or not. Some of the people I talked to said they're definitely going to get at jail time because you know, there are substantial crimes that they pleaded to and people were hurt in these cases. So that's the feeling that they'll get substantial But some people say, you know, maybe they'll get time served. So it's up to the judge
and it's up to the prosecution. They apparently cooperated very well. Sam mcminfree was convicted, so they seem to have fulfilled their part of the bargain with the prosecution. And now the question is, and it's probably going to be this, It's going to be this judge who sentences them, So he'll have to determine, you know, what he thinks is sufficient to send a message that you know, you it's good to cooperate. If you cooperate before trial, you can
get a deal. But at the same time, send a message that you don't get off scott free when you cooperate. There is you know, there is some there is a consequence to doing what you did. And let's say that they pleaded to some very serious crimes. They were involved in this in many ways, and they were you know, changing code, they were changing the balance sheets. I mean, there was a lot that they were doing in this case.
So I think that they'll get some serious jail time, but definitely not as much as Bangmin Freed's going to get.
Well, you mentioned the judge Lewis Kaplan, the US district judge here in New York. How do you think he did in running this proceeding?
Oh, don't ask me that question, Donnie. I mean, I just I just saw that. To me, it seemed like a lot of his a lot of his decisions were pro prosecution.
Okay, Well, let me ask it in another way. What is he known for based on trials in the past of this is you know, similar nature.
He's known for being a very good judge and running a very tight courtroom. When you're a reporter, you go in that courtroom, you don't want your phone to go off, Doug, because if it does, you could end up in jail. So, I mean he runs a very tight courtroom. During the cross examination of Carol and Ellison, there were so many objections and he sustained so many objections that the defense
couldn't even get their rhythm in cross examination. You know, when you're cross examining, you know, and even direct rhythm is is a lot about what it's about, you know, how you how you manage the cross examination. If you keep getting interrupted and you and you can't ask the questions, you know, it can room that. So now and apparently the cross is they made very little headway on the cross examinations of the three major witnesses, the three witnesses
who flipped. So he runs a very tight courtroom, is what I'll say. And remember he's also the one that threw Sankmin Freed into jail before the trial, despite the fact that he had this huge ail package and the fact that the defense came to the steering expecting to agree to a gag order and instead of the gag order,
the judge said, no, you're going to jail. So and that's you know, that makes it much more difficult for a defendant to prepare for trial and for you know, for his attorneys to prepare for trial, So so you know this judge is not fooling around.
And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the trial of Sam Bankman freed. The jury tonight in New York has found him guilty on seven counts, including fraud and conspiracy. And I'm speaking with June Grosso, our in house legal analyst, and we were talking about Judge Lewis Kaplan. What he is known for, so is will the judge allow a period here now for defense to file and appeal if they so choose, before he then moves to the sentencing phase.
I think the sentencing will happen first the defense has The defense is definitely going to appeal, and they have a certain amount of time to appeal. That's going to happen. They're going to file their notice of appeal, They're probably going to file for emotion notwithstanding the verdict. I mean, all that stuff will happen, but I think even he'll be sentenced before the appeal goes through, and the appeals
can take so long. They'll file for a notice. They have to get back all the transcripts of what happened at trial. They have to prepare and to and they've brief and stuff. So it's going to take a long time. And you know he's going to be sent.
To prison, so in the interim he'll be confined, I would imagine, to some type of jail situation right awaiting sentencing.
I think he'll probably stay. He's at the Brooklyn Detention Center,
I think so. I think he'll probably stay there pending the the So what happens now is not only do does the prosecution of the defense, you know, prepare their sentencing requests and recommendations, and I'm sure some people will write in, you have letters written in, and also the probation department will do a report on him and you know where where they think he should be sent and where and how much time they think he should get.
So that all takes a while. But I think I don't know if the judge has sent a sentencing.
We just got it now, just the moment that you uttered those remarks June March twenty eighth, that can't be, it said, I'm looking at March twenty eighth. That's got to be you know, three months from now.
Yeah, yeah, So you know that's giving them plenty of time to make their arguments. But I think you know it takes like this. The judge has stat through the entire trial, the free trial motions and all that, so you know, they can submit their requests and the prosecution can ask for Max and they could submit their arguments. But he already knows what happened in this trial and he has his own opinion of fam Maak been freed at this point, So he'll read those and I'm sure
take them, you know, into account. He knows it all by this point, right. He knows what was allowed in, he knows what was not allowed in. He knows how Sam Beankman freed was on the stand. So you know, Judge Kaplan has done this many many times, and I'm sure he'll he'll look at it all and then make his own mind up.
Talking to Junie Grosso, in house legal analyst for Bloomberg Radio about the trial of Sam Bankman free tonight. A jury here in New York has found him guilty on seven counts. The counts include fraud and conspiracy. This is after a month long trial where he, as June noted a moment ago, took the stand in his own defense. Are there sentencing guidelines.
Now, yes, there are sentencing guidelines, but I'll tell you I don't know what they are in this case, and they also can be very complicated to figure out. So I'm not even going to go get But I mean, technically everyone would think you could get one hundred years, but that's not going to happen. But that just shows you that it will be substantial.
June hold on, I want to bring in our own Angelo Moon, a Bloomberg legal reporter who joins us on the line from here in New York. This deliberation really didn't take that long, did.
It, right? It took about five hours, which is really unheard of. This is very very especially for a very high profile criminal cases. And you know, we knew that the judge was asking the jurors to stay really late into the evening, but you know, there was really less than ten percent chance really that we thought the verdict
was going to be delivered. But we have that now, which means that the jurors were pretty convinced from very earlier on that this was a fraud chase and the same and that Sam Brik mcfred was really the one who was orchestrating the fall of the FTX from very from very earlier on in this child.
I just want to be clear that this was a unanimous decision on the part of the jury, right, a unanimous guilty decision, right, correct.
And not only that they found him guilty of seven counts of fraud and conspiracy. You know, we were expecting initially that there will be you know, he would be you know, found guilty of some accounts. But this is really an unanimous decision and there was. It means that there was really no question about the kind of fraud, the kind of crimes that he committed.
One of the things that I'm trying to nail down. Maybe you can help me, and it fits ambiguous at this point, Angela, please, you know, uh, don't be led into this territory. But has the judge offered a sentencing date.
He has, so it's going to be March next year. So we were expecting the sentencing to be coming earlier next year, so there's really no surprise there. But that also means that we will see, you know what what it means for the collaborators that he's inner circle who already pled it, fled guilty, and was cooperating with the prosecutors. We'll see what kind of sent thing or what kind of you know, outcome it is for them as well.
Early next year, let's bring June Grosso back into the conversation. Bloomberg in house legal analyst, June this March twenty eighth of next year. That seems like a long period of time, does it not?
It does, But as I said, a lot has to happen in between now and then, and the judge is giving them time to you know, prepare their motions and for the probation department to make its report, and for the prosecution to prepare its recommendation. So, you know, better to have more time than less time. I don't think it matters much for Sam meg and Freed at this point. He's going to be in one prison or another.
When the judge it arrives at the sentencing. We were talking about sentencing guidelines earlier. Is anyone allowed to kind of enter into a conversation with a judge to influence his or her decision making?
Well, I mean you can send I mean I assume you mean like relatives that's like his mom, his dad, his friends. They can send letters to the judge and in some cases I mean, there have been cases where hundreds of letters were sent to judges and the judges do go over those letters, and sometimes they'll even refer
to them in the sentencing. They'll say, you know, you had I read this about you and that, and then they'll but I think, you know, despite all that, as I've said before, this judge knows all the evidence in this case, and he's seen it all, and he knows what was what was admitted into evidence and what was not admitted to evidence because he was the one who
made those decisions. So he knows what happened. And you know, I think that he will have an idea himself of where he wants to go here, and but he'll read the recommendations. He'll perhaps be persuaded by some but you know, usually the judges, the trial judges know.
Yeah, for a man as young as bankman Freed, I mean to be dealing with and you I think you put a figure of what one hundred years potentially worst case scenario after you've been convicted for these crimes.
That's just that's just ridiculous. I said it because that's like the outer limit of what people have been saying. He's facing one hundred years. That will never happen, never, never, never. But I mean that's just the outer limit if you are convicted of these seven you know, selonies. So it won't be it won't be that. I mean, I don't want to take a guess because I don't want to do that. But you know, yes, probably between ten and twenty and eighty. I don't know, Okay, it's hard to say.
June Grasso there Bloomberg in house legal analyst for Bloomberg Radio, and we're talking about the conviction of Sam Bankman free to jury here in New York, finding him guilty on seven counts of fraud and conspiracy.
Uh.
Jury here in Manhattan, deliberated for less than five hours, and the judge in this case, Lewis Kaplan, has now set a sentencing date of March twenty eighth of next year. What should we be looking for next? I mean, if we're trying to read the tea leaves here, June, is there anything to give us guidance on the severity of punishment?
Well, you know, we'd have to have someone who who studies the sentencing guidelines take a look at it. But you know, as I said, you look at Elizabeth Holmes. I mean, she was facing far more time when you added it all up than what she got. So, you know, I really don't know how to go about speculated sort of figuring out. I don't. I already speculated. Don't get it all.
Right, No more speculating, June.
You pushed me, and I speculated. I regretted already. But because you know, I just don't know how the judge is going to go here. But I just think it's going to be substantial. I don't thinks he's going to, you know, get out, get out very quickly.
I'm going to throw you another curveball because you're so good at fielding curveballs. In terms of being eligible for parole in a case like this, can the judge going into sentencing set limitations on that or is that entirely up to the parole board.
It's that's usually up to the parole board. So the judge will set a sentence, and I mean there might be a minimum and a maximum, but I think he'll just set a sentence. And I'm not as familiar with federal with federal prison Thomas, I am with state. So he'll set a sentence, and then the parole board, and I think in federal you know, I think we're gonna have to get an expert on this, because I am not an expert in federal, but I know the judge just set a sentence and then it'll be up. Parole
is a different thing. I don't know if you're thinking about parole or probation.
Okay, Jim will leave it there, Thank you so much. Sam Bankman Freed is what we've been talking about. His conviction today massive fraud that obviously led to the collapse of his cryptocurrency exchange FTX. Mister bankmin Freed found guilty tonight by a jury in Manhattan on all seven counts of fraud and conspiracy. June Grasso has been in conversation with US June, of course, Bloomberg Radio in house legal analyst