In an interview this week with The New York Times, President Trump made some remarkably pointed remarks, including this one about Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the Russia investigation. I think it's very unfair to the president. How do you take a job and then refuse yourself. If he would have refused himself before the job, I would have said, thanks, Jeff, But I can't. You know, I'm not gonna thank you. It's extremely unfair, and that's a mild word to the president.
So he recuses himself. I then end up with a second man, who's a deputy President. Trump also claimed that Special Counsel Robert Mueller, who's conducting the investigation, has conflicts of interest and should not investigate President Trump's personal finances, although Bloomberg News reported yesterday that Mueller's office has already expanded its investigation into Trump business transactions, and The Washington Post reported last night the Trump lawyers and staffers are
investigating the investigators working in Mueller's office and that the president may be examining his power to pardon those under investigation. Well, that's an awful lot going on, but here to talk with us about what this is likely to mean for the investigation into Russian colusion. Are two attorneys with exceptional records of public service uh AND who have looked at elected officials over the years. Peter Zeidenberg, a partner at Aaron Fox who in many years at the Justice Department
UH included time at in the public Integrity section. And Richard ben venist Day, a partner at brayermnt LP who is one of the lead prosecutors on the Watergate Special Prosecution Task Force. Richard, the president is said a lot in this interview about UM different officials who the FBI that the thinks the FBI Report Director reports directly to the president, talked about his ability to get rid of the investigation entirely made the comments I mentioned earlier and
the one we played. What he's got this investigation going on? What can you discern in terms of what the president and strategy is here? I don't see that the president has any strategy. He's created chaos throughout at least the Justice Department UH and has repeatedly made contradictory statements UH and statements that go on the will beyond the pale in terms of being the subject of an investigation which
by this time, no doubt President Trump is. And so I think you start with the notion that h he has been stealing like a tea kettle and may reach the boil at any moment, provoking a constitutional crisis. Uh, he cannot abide the situation he finds himself in with Sessions quite properly recusing and Trump seething at sessions decision that put in Starring in the position as acting Attorney General, a man wide widely praised on both sides of the aisle, and confirmed I think by a vote of two um.
So he's Trump's pick. And then he promptly appoints Bob Mueller as UH special counsel. Now, Bob Muller has bipartisans support, and rightly so, because he is an extraordinary pick to leave the investigation. He is a man of unmatched integrity, great experience as a former federal prosecutor and the former FBI director, and there's no one who could suggest that he lacks the integrity to conduct the investigation. Peter, let's talk a little bit about President Trump being very upset
about his personal finances being looked into. Mueller is empowered to look at any matters arising from his investigation. Everyone who knows these kinds of investigations, No, you follow the money?
Is he is following the money within his purview? Yeah? Absolutely, Um, you know, you're, you're, any investigation is going to be looking at these financial relationships, um, with Russians and with Russia and trying to understand um for one thing, motive um, which could explain the relationships and the behavior, you know, the frankly bizarre behavior um of the president in regards to Russia and why he may have colluded, which is
part of the investigation. So if there is indebtedness that he has with Russia or Russians that these old arks with business with loans, um, then it's absolutely fair game. And in fact, he would be derelict if look at it this way. Let's let's say he looked at it narrowly.
I'm only gonna look at the last sixteen months. President Trump's apparent unhappiness with the investigation into possible collusion with Russia manifested itself this week in a number of statements the President made, including assertions that the special investigator has conflicts of interest and that it would cross a red line if the investigation looks at his finances. We're talking about the investigation with two former government officials, Peter Zeidenberg
of Aaron Fox and Richard Benveniste of Mayor Brown. Peter, the President does appear to be doing trying to do something to affect at least perception of this investigation by making all these comments. Is it likely to have any impact on Special Counsel Robert Mueller? Not directly on Mueller or his team. This is pure background noise to them, and they're not gonna it's not gonna make one bit of difference to them at all. They're not going to
be intimidated by it. They're not going to be particularly bothered by it. But it's more of a political question, um, because he's trying to stir up his base and to get put out talking points for Fox News and for you know, avid supporters of of the president to uh. And it's it's really just a political gamp, but not a legal one. And um, Richard, he's also been talking, according to what Washington Post last night, he's been the President has been asking about his partnering power and even
about partnering himself. Can a president pardon himself? It's not been determined by the courts whether that's possible. Um. I think the stronger argument is that it's not. If you look at the history of the pardon power, and he may be sending a message to those who have information damaging to the president, um, that he has his power and is prepared to use it. So they ought to
stay in line. Now he can pardon anyone other than himself. Uh, there there will be tremendous political consequences for him doing so,
because that would truncate the investigation certainly at this early point. Peter, you know, when you when you look at these comments the president has made, and the fact is thinking about pardons, that they're investigating, the investigators who are investigating them, that he is uh that you know, he said all these things about who reports to who, and whether Sessions should
be attorney general. One wonders about, in the context of the obstruction of justice investigation, what does the president seem to think about? You know, what do these comments tell us about the way the president thinks about his relationship
to other officials in the government. Well, I'll make the same observations that others have made in the last day or so, which is this is all of a piece that shows that, you know, the president seems to think that he treats the government like he's the CEO of an organization and everyone reports to him and he's the boss of everyone. UM. That's not the way d o J, for instance, works. UM. The FBI director doesn't report directly to the president, like he said, he reports to the
attorney general, actually the deputy attorney general. So there are structures in place and UM and norms in place, and the president has no understanding how any of that works.
And that's to put it charitably. UM. Just on the point that Richard made about UM the pardon power of parting one self, whether he could pardon himself, I think that that is UM an issue that's really an away academic because I don't think it's likely or or even in the realm of possibility, that he would be indicted anyway. I think the light more much greater likelihood is that he would be impeached, in which case partying himself would
only make it more likely he'd be impeached, not less likely. Richard, you were Watergate prosecutor, and there has been some noise that President Trump might try to fire the special counsel as he fired Jim Comey. Would that parallel the seventy three Saturday Night massacre? I think it would be even worse on the circumstances where he's already used his executive power to fire Jim Comey, who was investigating him and other aspects. Um, He's also fired Tree Baha, the U
S Attorney for the Southern District of New York. So you see a pattern of firing people who have the power to do him harm, and they do him harm only in connection with their legal authority to investigate longdoing each of these steps makes Trump look more and more guilty of something. And if, in fact, Uh he fires Mueller or attempts to do so through the chain of command that the Justice Department by firing people who refuse to do so until he gets to one who will,
then he's created a constitutional crisis in this country. He
looks guilty as hell as Nixon did. By the way, when he fired Archibald cox Um, people who are on the sidelines are under side did said to themselves, what is he hiding to incur this kind of chaos upon the country, Uh, Peter, In just about twenty seconds, do you think that what the President said makes the case easier for Muller to make, uh, you know, because of an obstruction you know, he has made so many comments, um like this to show state of mind in terms
of a possible obstruction case. You know, at this point, it's it's just guilding the lily. He's made it very clear why he fired uh Comey and his interest in firing Mueller. So he's just digging the hole deeper. Well, we're gonna have to leave it there. Are thanks to Peter Zeidenberg of Aaron Fox and Richard Bandernisti of Mayor
Brown for being here. On Bloomberg Law. Coming up, we're gonna be talking about whether the Federal Trade Commission is acting as aggressively under President Trump as it did under President Obama. That's right ahead on Bloomberg Law. You're listening to Bloomberg Radio. This is Bloomberg m