Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside my co host Matt Miller.
Every business day we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along with essential market moven news.
Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. All right, let's keep an eye on the market here, as John was just reporting kind of a red day on the screen here to s and p off one percent and to me, the question is where do you go here? This fed is going to keep it higher for longer. Let's check in with our next guest. He's probably got an informed opinion. David Diets, managing principle and
senior portfolio strategist at pepac Private Wealth Management. David, thanks for joining us again here. I'm a little concerned here that at the very least this stock market is range bound until we get a better sense of what this Federal Reserve is going to do here.
Well, it could be worse than range bound, as we saw in September, where is the worst month of the year for many sectors of the market. The s and p. Five hundred. If this ten year treasury yield keeps rising, that just puts pressure on all assets, whether that be real estate, whether that be stocks, whether that be tech stocks or utility stocks and so forth, because it reduces that present value. The question is what is ultimately going to break the rise and this interest rates, And we're
just not sure. But we're obviously we're looking at inflation, We're looking at the federal Reserve, We're looking at the amount of debt being issued by our federal government. We're wondering what central banks overseas are doing with their catch of US treasury securities that's all in the mix.
And looking at some of these long term yields here, I mean, the thirty are just on absolute tear today. Anything really that's like, you know, standing out to you in that part of the curve right now.
Well, certainly uncertainty.
We just got a piece of information today, the so called Jolt survey, which showed there were more job openings than we're expected, and that's really an athem about to bond prices and going to create higher yields because one of the concerns of the bond market is if this economy stays strong and the one of the most important parts of it is labor, then there's going to be more demand for borrowing, there's going to be more inflation,
there's going to be increasingly hawkish FED. So that has helped push yields up again today, and of course we're seeing the fallout of the market.
You know, I was taking a look into the jolt support a little bit further here, and I'm not sure how much of it you've seen, but you know, most of this rise in job openings came pretty much exclusively from professional business services and finance and insurance jobs like that was like the more or less the bulk of the jump and openings here. How much do you think the FED reads into something like that? And of course, you know, there is the bigger picture. The labor market
is still very strong. There still are a lot of job openings. But just looking at this one report here, seeing as it was so concentrated.
Yeah, so absolutely, well, you know, I do think that these are the types of jobs that pay a little bit better as opposed to the service sectors. So there's a couple of things you could read into it. One is that this initial surge and service sector jobs post pandemic is starting to ease. Maybe that's reflective of middle and lower income Americas having to pull in their belts just a little bit as interest rates go up and
inflation bites. And of course the other thing, if these higher paying jobs are the ones that are still most in demand, those ultimately pay a little bit more and that could exacerbate inflation. So you could make the case that this is not the best mixed from the point of view the Federal Reserve valuation.
David, You know, I guess there's a couple of ways to look at valuation here. A the market's pretty pricey given where rates are, but if you back out the magnificent seven, maybe it's not as bad. How do you think about valuation as we guroup for another round of earnings?
Yeah, absolutely, it is a tail to markets and so many different metrics. And Paul, your right to focus and valuation because now after the September and indeed the last two months of Q three plus of course Monday is mixed. Outing. If you strip out that magnificance magnificent seven, you've got a pe on the market that's only fifteen. You know, that's actually below what the average has been over the
last decade. But you're also right to point too. You know, you need to always compare these things versus the yields available on benchmark treasuries, of course, and you know, so people are gonna say, well, gee, if I can get four point seven percent risk free from a treasury, admittedly with no growth of that income, that looks pretty good, even relative to a fifteen pe on the market, particularly given the risk of recession and increasingly hawkers fed, so
valuations look better. That's reasons for optimism. But we're still looking over our shoulder at the bond market.
You know, David, I'm an economy person and I was personally banking on this week being fairly quiet, expecting there to be no Joltz report, no jobs report, but no such thing. You know, we got a deal and the government is the lights are on for now. So looking ahead a little bit to Friday, what are you thinking ahead of the jobs report?
Well, so it seems like the consensus on Wall Street is maybe some job creation, maybe one hundred thousand, and so we're going to be determining whether, you know, the actual jobs created are less or more. Unfortunately, we're in this situation here Molly, where good news has taken us bad news because you know, a better economy means potentially higher yields, which is going to cause people to rotate
out of stocks into these bombs. And so I think from Wall Street's perspective, you may want something under one hundred. Certainly if you are a bond investor, you want something well less than a hundred. And that could help us get you know, our feet back on the ground, and of course gives some pause to the Fed who keeps talking about higher for longer. If those job if that job creation comes in softer, that's to watch. Of course,
two other things to watch. One is you know the the weekly pay is that showing inflationary trends or backing off a little bit? And of course do they change the numbers for past months? If they revise them down, that could be a positive. The so called bad news is good news for stocks or could go the other way.
Corporate earnings start up and you know a week to ten days here, Yet again, what are you looking for in this earnings? Have we seen the worst of this earning cycle? Or we still have some more pain to go here?
In Q three, well, you know we are going to see some pain because the latest factset pronouncements show that on average we should just be a little bit below the flat line, which is going to reflect the third or fourth quarter in a row of negative year over year earnings. Well, you know, you buy stocks for earnings. If they're not making more money than they were the
prior year, Well, what's the point. Well, the point's going to be that forecasters are looking for a close to twelve percent jump in earnings in twenty twenty four, and you buy a stock not for the past quarters earnings, but for the upcoming earnings. So you know, all lives are really going to be focused, not necessarily in what they report, but what they say about conditions going forward. If they're upbeat and constructive, that's the reason to jump
back in. If not, people may want to hold their power, and that could be a more slogging that we're going to have to do in the market.
Here, tell us where you're at, David, for you know, looking into the November FOMC at this point and expectations for the rest of the year as well.
So I think it's a coin toss right now as to whether they're going to be another hike in November. Counseling for it is they don't want to have to say they're done, have assets take off and create another inflationary problem. Want they don't want to say that they're done and then have to come back in again. But on the other hand, you know, these interest rate hikes act with a long and variable lag. You know, I'm still looking at this residence or real estate market where
mortgage rates have more than doubled. You know, all things being equal, that means carrying costs have doubled. How can residents or real estate prices stay where they are? And that's consumer's biggest asset. So I think that there's a lot of reasons for caution on the part of the Federal Reserve. And so my best guess is they sit tight, but they say they're going to stay vigilant. But we all see all right.
David, thanks so much for joining us. We always appreciate getting your thoughts. David Deets, managing Principal and senior portfolio strategist at Peepeck Private Wealth Management.
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Let's go to our next guest, because I'm looking at this market and we had the job market, the job opening is the Jolts thing MEJIGGI that came in really strong, higher than any forecast out there. So of course the market says, well, the Fed's not going to be cutting rates anytime soon, maybe even raise rates. So let's check in with Meghan Horneman. She's a chief investment officer at Verdants. Megan, what do you make of the Jolts data we saw this morning and the market's reaction to it.
So it is one month, we have to remember that it has been consistently coming down. It was surprising to us. I mean it was very concentrated in some of the white collar jobs in finance, business education. It's going to be more important on how that translates into Friday's number, if it does at all. The one thing we took out of that report is the quits rate, So that's the amount of people that are voluntarily leaving their job,
and that still is very low. So that shows that there isn't a ton of confidence in the future of the labor market. People are holding on to their current jobs. Let's just see what happens on Friday. We've already been in the camp that there's more of a chance the FED will have to raise rates at least one more time this year. Whether it's November or December really will
depend on the data that's coming in. Right now. We do see, you know, the labor market in its entirety is still relatively strong, so the Fed can't necessarily pull back what they're doing. The other thing that has concerned us has been the fact that oil prices are back on the rise, So that's going to cost some volatility in the inflation data and make the job for the FED even more difficult.
You also mentioned in the Joltz report there's a layoffs also stayed low in addition to quits. And looking ahead then to Friday with the jobs report, I mean, where do you see the weakness coming from. It looks like, you know, people have been calling for the hiring to be slowing, and it is slowing. But I don't know. Some of these estimates in here, for like one hundred thousand down from one hundred and eighty seven that would be a huge drop off.
I mean, as far as weakness in the labor market, let's remember that the labor market is a lagging indicator. So a lot of people put so much kind of credence into every month's jobs report and the fact that it's strong and the Fed's going to have to do so much more. Let's just remember it's a lagging indicator. It is what's kept the economy afloat for this entire year. But going forward, there are some cracks that are starting
to emerge. When you look at some of the underlying indicators and some of the indexes in manufacturing or even the service side, this is showing weakness. We know that from the construction side there's weakness there with the housing market being in such disarray. So I don't necessarily think that, you know, from the weakness in the labor market will continue to materialize. It's just not going to materialize immediately. Also, we do, in reality have a structural issue with labor
market right now. We have some demographics that are concerning. But I do think if you look over a long period of time, so I'm not talking about this month or next month, there are other things that we have to member like AI. This will come in and also help with some of the structural issues in the labor market. I just think it's going to make the Fed's job very difficult and they're going to have to tread very lightly with this. Unfortunately, it looks like they're going to
push the economy into a recession, a needed recession. There are some excesses that need to be cleared out, but unfortunately, with the amount of tightening that they're doing and that they need to do, it's likely pushing the economy into recession.
Oh boy, all right, So I had taken recession off the table, Megan, three months ago, So we'll have to see how that plays out.
But I trust your opinion a lot more than mine. Looking at the S and P.
Five hundred, Megan, you know, we're still up ten percent for the year, but you know, down eight percent or so from that. I guess that high back in the July or so. Has a market adequally priced in higher for longer?
Or do we have more to go? Or are we going to tread water?
How do you kind of view the next three to six months.
I still don't think it's completely over. I think a lot of it has been done the damage, and we've seen this has been a pretty rapid move. I just don't think from a valuation perspective, there's two things. I think PE multiples still are a little too high given the higher for longer, and I also don't think I know you mentioned you took recession off the table three
months ago. We've kind of always been in the camp that there'd be a recession, but now there's more people coming back into the camp that unfortunately this will end in in a recession, whether it's a short and shallow recession, but some sort of a recession. The earnings expectations for next year aren't really reflecting that yet, so I'm afraid that we're going to see earnings expectations come down lower for next year, So that could put some more downward pressure on the market.
There's still so much division within the FED right now of where do we go from here, And you know, I want to ask Megan, maybe you've got a better idea then than they do right now of what the data is telling you in terms of the direction of rates. Right now, you think another hike maybe possible this year?
Yeah, And I won't say I'm smarter than anybody at the FED. But I will say that I think it is good to have some of the division there in the committee because we are walking such a line. Inflation is extraordinarily easy to reignite, especially if you start to give the signs that hey, we are done, rate cuts are done, or rate hikes, sorry, rate hikes are done, because then eventually people are going to be looking for
that rate cut. What my concern is that that rate cut isn't going to happen anytime soon because they're walking such a fine line with inflation. With the PCE core, we did just get below four percent on a year of a year basis. That's good, Inflation is going in the right direction. But there are some other factors that we're concerned what just cause a lot of volatility and inflation and make us getting from that four or five percent inflation down to two percent much more difficult.
WTI crude oil back around ninety dollars a barrel. Is there still an energy trade here for investors or has that kind of played out?
I think if you're just looking at from a return perspective, it is. Look, a lot of it has been priced into the market. We think it's definitely an issue from the inflation standpoint, but it's also something that can really hurt the consumer. Sometimes the cure for high prices is
high prices, and energy is one of those things. If this causes demand to pull back substantially, for the economy to fall into recession, commodities including oil, they're not They can't escape that weakness when we do fall into an economic contraction.
All right, Megan, thank you so much for joining us again. I always appreciate getting your thoughts. Megan Horneman, a chief investment officer at Verdants.
You're listening to the tape Can's our live program Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Josh Joseph, CEO of Big Plan Holdings, he joins us live here on our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. Josh, thanks so much for joining us here. What is Big Plan Holdings and how'd you get here?
Yeah?
Thank you for having me. Big Plan Holdings is a diversified family office that my wife and daughters run out of Nashville, Tennessee at this point, focused in cannabis, real estate, hospitality, fashion, professional sports, music, and entertainment.
You funded this family office with the sale.
Of your cannabis company, yeah, out of Chicago.
Yeah.
We founded a company in Chicago in the Chicago Land area back in twenty fourteen fifteen, and grew that to the largest privately held cannabis company in the US upon an exit in July twenty two. Would you to cure Leaf acquired US. That's a public traded yeah company, Yeah, public Canadian company. Yeah, you can only be public right now in Canada in the cannabis space.
That's a good American story. Yeah.
So what's the steely this story with the legality of cannabis and Tennessee right now?
Not much of one. Yeah, not much Yeah, not much of one. Yeah.
Tennessee is going to be one of the last remaining states to fall, is my guess at this point. So has that you know, Tennessee is a very strong state. So you know, more often than not, the states will jump in because of you know, needing some additional money to come in and you know, right size budgets, et cetera. Tennessee's fiscally strong. I think politics also, of course plays a role in that as well. And I think that they'll be one of the last states to fall.
So when you say fiscally strong, AKA, they don't have much of a financial incentive here, correct.
Okay, So where we on the national legislation for cannabis, because it feels like that domino has to fall before banking can have you know, it just seems like that has to happen.
At some point.
Yeah, A lot of people think that federal legalization is the key. I actually don't. I think a lot of us who've been in the business, you know, I've been in it since twenty fourteen, which is, you know, about fifty years in any other industry, I think federal legalization really is We're fine keeping it at the state level in this industry. But how about like banking, Yeah, what we need to happen, what we need to have happened,
or two or three things there, three or four things really. Recently, the Department of Health and Human Services just about two weeks ago made a recommendation to reschedule cannabis to a Schedule three drug from a Schedule one that would allow a couple of things, a couple dominoes to fall into place, that would allow hopefully what will be safe banking to be passed on Capitol Hill, which has already passed through the House seven times and has failed in the Senate
each time. So we're hoping that with this most recent subcommittee bipartisan subcommittee legislation from a week or two ago that came.
Through that hopefully we'll get that passed.
There's something in the IRS tax co to ADE that we are not allowed to use in cannabis.
We are very very hopeful.
That we will be allowed to use to ADE and exercise that to allow for the appropriate deductions to be taken, which will almost automatically allow for all the big MSOs and larger operators to be profitable right away, almost overnight, and then being uplisted and being allowed to be listed on the Nasdaq would be absolutely tremendous. So right now you can only be listed in Canada. So that's why federal legalization really it doesn't matter if that makes sense all that much.
It looks like this bill that that just went through the Senate Banking Committee seems pretty serious. This is kind of crazy to me. I had no idea that cannabis related companies right now are forced to operate using only cash. Is that true?
Yeah, Yeah, it's aund so archaic.
It's really really antiquated. Yeah, really antiquated.
It's a real challenge in the industry for you know, as you scale your business, it's a tremendous, tremendous challenge. Is a consumer or a patient or a consumer, it's a challenge. And so this would allow really, you know, for the big banks, the FDIC insured banks, to be able to take our money and also provide loans to us, because as of now, to scale your business in the cannabis industry, it's really all cash. You can't provide any no one can provide you any leverage in the public markets.
So you're getting leveraged from private investors like ourselves. You know, we'll we'll, we'll lend to certain cannabis operators, et cetera. But they don't come they don't come cheap.
Yep.
All right, So we have legal cannabis here in New York. But if you I'm sure you've walked down the streets of New York City there's these cheesy weed shops two or three to every block.
What did the city do so get.
So incredibly wrong here?
Yeah?
The state, So it's yeah, it's it's at the state level. And in my opinion, it's it's at the state level. States state will you know, enact legislation, filled adopt rules and rigs as we call them, and you know, and then New York like so many other states, unfortunately, will roll out a program and they're just not ready for it. And time and time again we've seen this over the last decade when states roll them out, especially in limited
license states. There's rightfully, there's been a real big push for DEI diversity, equity and inclusion, social equity participation in the cannabis industry, and there are just not the appropriate tool for a lot of these states when they roll out programs to allow for the influx of interest that they're getting that these cannabis commissions are getting. And so New York is one of many many states. Really, Yeah, can you put the genie back in the bottle here?
It's tough. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. You know, they're going to try, they're trying right now. But it's a challenge.
Because you're supposed to have approved, state approved dispensaries, which we have a couple or three here in the city. Matt Miller would know the details better than me. But then we have the unlicensed ones, right, and I guess the law enforcements just has chosen not to enforce.
Yeah, that's that's what they've chosen to do. You know, at this point, you know they're a bigger fish to fry from a law enforcement standpoint, and so it is tough to put the genie back in the bottle.
To your question, is.
That a problem in other states too? Or is it just US city folks complaining here?
No, I think it is.
I think New York, though, has really has a real issue. Actually job yeah, yeah, I think I think you have a real issue. Coming from Illinois, coming from the Chicagoland area, I will say as is screwed up as our state, my home, my former home state of Illinois is in many respects Illinois cannabis program. We were the eleventh state back in twenty fourteen. They actually did a really nice job crafting a program that did not provide for what is happening here in New York.
What are the economics for a state for the cannabis.
Business, does it?
What are the what are the revenue arguments that are being made have been made, and are they coming to fruition?
Yeah? They are? Yeah.
I mean you know, Illinois recently, you know, had more in sales tax revenue, as an example, in cannabis sales.
Than alcohol sales.
Really yeah, and you're going to continue to see that trend around the country, is my guess. So you know, when these states are putting together annual budgets, you know, this cannabis tax that's coming in is rather significant. You know, I can talk to you, you know about Illinois just for a second, just because that was where I started. And you know, if you're a medical patient, you're going
to pay about three or four percent. I want to say, if you're an adult use customer, you're going to pay somewhere between thirty and forty percent of tax based upon you So figure you're you're at a thirty five percent average tax.
So yeah, it adds up, you know, pretty significantly.
When we're looking at you know, next states that could legalize weed, cannabis.
Cannabis, cannabis, yes, cannabis.
Is proper word. Here can we not say weed.
Is that weird?
Of course?
Okay, oh right, yes, excuse me, right, that one of our new favorite tickers. But when we're looking at legalization for future states, I mean, is it really a political argument? Is it a fiscal one?
Like?
What are the big talking points here?
Yeah?
What happens is every every state will always roll out a medical program first, every single one. They will typically let that go for a year, two years. They'll see how it goes. They will notice that there is not an uptick in criminal activity, they will notice that there is not an uptick in DUIs and all of that kind of stuff that folks get scared of, that officials get scared of. Then they start talking about adult use.
You're a recreational use, and so it takes a couple of minutes for a state to come around, and you know, and then once they do it, then takes a little bit more time for them to enact adult use legislation. We're seeing it move a little bit quicker now, just because we have so many states that have opted into
medical programs. I think we're up to thirty seven I want to say states plus four territories that I could be off by one or two, but around that number that have at least medical programs, and then when you break that down, you're having the low twenties on adult use.
Hey, Josh, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate you coming in here.
Josh Joseph, CEO of Big Plan Holdings talking about the cannabis business. Make a lot of movement here on the state level.
You're listening to the Team Can't Live program Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts.
Satalie Traetrevetic Joints.
So she's had an investment grade credit strategy at paid in and regal. What should I do with a credit side because for the first time in like forever, I can get yield here.
Yield at six point one five percent are pretty attractive. But these days it always seems like the best day to buy bonds is tomorrow. So it seems to be going higher and higher. We think we are near the top and you kind of can lock in rates today
at these higher levels. You mentioned the two year at five in a little bit is nice, but we were seeing investors want to go further out the curve, even if it means taking the lower yield, you can still get close to those six percent on ten year corporates, and we find that pretty compelling.
Natalie True Trevethic Joints is she's had investment grade credit strategy at paid In and Regal.
Thanks Natalie for joining us. And yeah, you know, Paul was right. I am a bit of a credit person, at least in a former life here, and you know, I'm looking at investment grade bond yields right now, and spreads are still pretty tight all things considered. There there is a little bit of widening here. But I guess like the question for you right now is probably what like there probably is no need to take any credit risk right like, you know, duration is just like doing all the work for you.
Duration is doing the bulk of the work. But getting that extra one hundred and twenty five basis points by going into id credit still seems to make sense. There has been this tug of war between credit looking rich on a spread basis but attractive on a yield basis, and all factors are signaling that people are yield buyers and are really looking at these high yields that you can get in high yield a year or two ago and seeing it as a relatively safe have in place to park their money.
Natalie, how do you guys think about it over there at paid and Regal in terms of what this filter reserve is going to do here? Is there another one move higher or do you think they can stay here?
We think there's one move higher. The issue which we think is going to propel that is just still strong employment. Consumers still have a lot of money. Maybe the savings rate is coming down, but their expenditures are still below what they're earning, so we still feel that the consumer has some strength behind them.
Yeah, that's got to be a factor. Then concerning for the Fed here and we obviously saw the jolts support this morning, job openings not coming down. You must be looking ahead then to Friday and I'm the next catalyst then on the jobs report then for rates, any expectations as we're looking into later this week.
Yeah, we think as long as you get one hundred thousand of job growth per month, that could keep us at an unemployment rate of three point eight percent. So for the catalyst for the unemployment rate to move higher, which would really maybe give the FED more reason to pause. We just don't really see that in the cards in the near term.
Not only in a credit space. Are there certain industries that you guys feel more comfortable here or some industries that maybe represent better value right here given where we are in the economic cycle.
Sure, from the credit perspective, we're actually liking the utility sector right now. We've seen valuations cheap and up there, and they tend to be higher quality bonds which are also secured, so we're seeing better value in that sector today. We're also seeing value in some of the consumer sectors. Autos have also cheapened up a little because of the strike, and we don't think this is going to be a long term burden on their ability to continue to earn
strong cash flows. So that's a sector we also like buying on this little bit of weakness.
How about in terms of credit quality, you think this is a time to maybe be greedy, reached down a little bit, or no need.
Well, we like investment, great credit, but we are fine going down into the triple B space. A lot of the single lay names have had so much demand that you aren't offering you a big premium over treasuries. We also think there's some value in the high yield market. We don't think there's going to be a big wave of defaults here, so playing some of that crossover space is pretty attractive because then you get yields closer to seven percent.
How about do you.
Guys have much exposure to the mortgage backed securities market, because it just seems crazy with mortgage rates and what's going on in the housing market.
I'm not sure if that's where you guys play as well.
Yeah.
Paydon as a firm has a lot of investments across mbs. It's not my area of expertise, though.
Do you look at anything else in like the asset backspace? I mean, I guess I would also maybe be a little concerned with like auto loans right now and just anything as you're saying, you know, if consumer spending might be slowing here just looking at it from that macro perspective.
Yeah, from the macro perspective, we do see a little bit of weakness, but the strength of some of these securities, particularly in the triple A buckets, it's still very strong, and we have seen valuations cheapen up here, so it actually can be a bit of an opportunity to buy in this weakness.
Now on what is seeing the new issue market, I'd be you know, I can I wonder what the issuers are thinking about here with these rates continuing to move higher.
What do you have like when your discussions with new issuers.
Yeah, there's been a lot of issuance in September, but at underwhelmed relative to expectations. And what we're seeing is a little bit of a dichotomy between what buyers want to buy, which is ten and thirty year bonds, and what issuers want to issue, which is really the front end of the curve. We're seeing a lot more to your issuance this year than we have before, and deals are with a lot of two three, five sevens because they rather have these higher rates for a shorter period
of time. And they also bought so much thirty year paper post pandemic at virtually free rates, so they already have that part of their maturity wall very full. So we see them kind of topping up more the belly of the curve here.
So what are your contacts on the sell side saying about this? Are the issues going to start giving you what you want.
No, deals have been coming up very tight levels, very aggressive typically, you know, pricing twenty five basis points tighter than their initial price talk and dealers and investors aren't dropping from these deals. So the demand just is outweighing the supply right now. So we think it's a little bit more of a seller's market. And also you have to think that these companies aren't refinancing their entire debt
stack at these higher yields of six percent. They've been able to borrow very cheaply for many years, so they aren't going to stop boring just because interest rates have gone up. They want to maintain their access to the capital markets.
All right, Natalie, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate you taking the time as always. Natalie Trevithick, head of investment grade credit strategy at Payden and Regal.
Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller nineteen seventy three.
And I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio