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Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside my co host Matt Miller.
Every business day we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along with essential market movin news.
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Well, let's keep the conversation going as to whether we will see an extension of us close Rally into the Moon music for January and February. We've got Christina Hooper joining us now Chief global market strategist over at Invesco, Christina. Always great to have your voice across our programming, and you seem to be liking equities at this particular moment in terms of risk sentiment.
Oh, absolutely, Caroline. What I would anticipate is that as we head into twenty twenty four, we're likely to see markets discount in economic reacceleration in the back half of twenty four, and that should benefit small caps and cyclicals the most. In fact, I think we've already seen a preview of that late in twenty three. I think that
continues now on the back half of the year. We could see some give back just because markets will then start to discount twenty twenty five, but I do believe the early part of twenty four is likely to be very positive, although there could be some volatility because there still is some confusion around FED policy given that the Fed dot protests too much.
Okay, so talk to us a little. We're going to dig into perhaps where the FED is going to go throughout the show. What do you make of central bank policy? Do you think that they will be cutting as much as the market seems to be.
Think they will be I think they ultimately will. I think they have another goal right now, though, which is to tamp down and easing of financial conditions, and so that's why we're seeing predictions there on dot plot saying only seventy five basis points in cuts this year, and of course some of the hawkish language we've heard recently. I think that ultimately will be a non event that we will see probably between one hundred and one hundred
and fifty basis points in cuts. Not because the economy deteriorates a lot. I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's because where monetary policy is is quite restrictive, especially if disinflation continues.
Christine, reading through your notes, I found a juicy nugget here in your ex his outlook, we see the greatest potential in emerging markets.
Talk to us about that.
Sure, well, emerging markets are likely to perform well historically they have when the dollar has weakened, and I think we're certainly seeing that trend start and I think it will continue in twenty four. Emerging markets are well positioned.
We saw some emerging market central banks act more quickly in the face of inflation, so they're in a better place in terms of normalizing monetary policy, and I think we're likely to see especially Asia em perform quite well this year, and I think that is going to be one of the key stories of twenty four.
That's a good one.
I like that we're going to circle back on that throughout the year. I look at my Bloomberg Index browser Christina, which allows me to see total returns in the fixed income space, and the good news is for bond investors they have positive returns in twenty twenty three versus some brutally negative returns in twenty twenty two. What's your fixed income outlook here after a decent twenty three.
Well, investors certainly went through a lot of pain in twenty two and certainly saw a better environment twenty three. I think that fixed income is well positioned in twenty four. Yields are certainly higher, and my expectation is that investment grade bonds are going to be an area of particular opportunity.
I don't anticipate a soft landing so much as more of a bumpy landing in the first half of the year, and I think that the sweet spot for the economy will be investment grade corporates also excited about emerging market debt. I think this is a time where we want to be. We want to have a more waiting to both emerging markets equities and emerging markets debt. In terms of duration, longer duration, we've been taught about that for months now.
We think that going long is important, and I think ultimately, when we've looked at past cycles, it has been a good time to go long duration.
One interesting point from your notes as well was alternative assets and within their commercial real estate you like it, you fav why and what part?
Well.
First, I have to say commercial real estate covers a large swath of territory. Office space is only a relatively small portion of the commercial real estate picture. But even within office space, I think we've seen the worst in terms of occupancies. We're in recovery mode. It could take some time. But the key is that rates are coming down and that has played such an outsized role in pricing for real estate. So I think that twenty twenty
four represents opportunities for commercial real estate. If, as we anticipate, rates come down, mortgage rates come down, this could be quite an attractive environment, you know.
Christina mentioning and discussing emerging markets. It makes me think about China because it's such a big part of the MSCI. China was a disappointing story for most investors in twenty twenty three. The economy did not rebound as much as people thought on.
The great reopening. If you will, how do you view China in twenty twenty four.
So China is an interesting investment landscape because you're absolutely right, there was some level of disappointment in twenty twenty three. The economy had a nice reopening, but it wasn't as strong as many anticipated. If we were to sort of dive down, services did a lot better than manufacturing, and I would argue that manufacturing disappointment was largely about a
increased global demand that impacted many economies. Now, there of course were issues, and I think they were largely around a consumer sentiment in China and a view that there was a need for more stimulus. So we have seen in the back half of twenty three more of a rollout of policy that has been quite targeted, and I think if we see a continuation of target targeted stimulative policies coming from China, it could be quite a good year for consumer spending.
Christine, if we think about this time last year, we thought China was going to do well, we thought the US was going to dip into recession. We got a lot of calls wrong, and we're going to be dipping into that entire discussion a little bit later.
But what out of all of.
This viewpoint that you have in terms of potentially a little bit of refirming in China, the fact that US equities is going to be good, what are the risks to that from your perspective?
Well, I think the greatest risk facing investors right now is that we do see a hard landing for the economy. I would assign that a very low probability. But I do believe that when you have incredibly aggressive monetary policy and it's quite synchronized across a number of different major economies, that is the single biggest risk. And of course that could take down a stock market that has a very
different expectation for the economy. But again I would say that is a very low risk now in terms of whim which markets are going to perform better than others, I think because we're going to see that weakening in the US dollar, and I think that's I have a lot of conviction in that call that that should bode well for economies outside the US, and I think there are of course other factors at play as well. But at the end of the day, we can be wrong,
especially when it comes to tactical allocations. Everyone can be and that's the importance of being well diverse.
Christina, thank you so much for joining us. As always, we're a little bit smarter after spending some time with you. Christina Hooper, chief Global market strategist at a little firm called Invesco.
You're listening to the team Ken's are Live program Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am eastering on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts.
Looking back on twenty twenty three, boy geopolitics was front and center, probably a lot more than people would like for a lot of reasons. For he had Ukraine and now the Middle East flaring up yet again, and you have to factor that into your investment outlook.
That's certainly been the case throughout this year.
That's why we're happy to speak with Wendy Shulder, Professor at Brown University, professor, thanks so much for joining us. I want to start just on the domestic political front here. There are a lot of states that are questioning whether former president of Biden can even be on the ballot. Trump, former president, thank you very much, can never even be on the ballot this year. How do you make what do you make of what's happening here on some of these states.
Well, I mean we've had Colorado and the state Supreme Court ruled there, and then Maine. It was a decision by the Secretary of State of Maine. And the issue is, you know, did Donald Trump commit insurrection in allegedly inciting the January sixth riots, but also you know, trying to sort of undermine or change the electoral results of twenty
twenty fake elector schemes. You know, all of his claims were thrown out sixty different court cases, but he was not ever convicted of insurrection, which is really important part for the fourteenth Amendment. If you commit insurrection, if you were a Confederate soldier and you took up arms against the United States the Union, you were considered an insurrectionist. But even Jack Smith is not charging former President Trump
with insurrection. So in this case, it's a pretty wide application of the Fourteenth Amendment for somebody who has not been convicted in the court of law of insurrection.
Nevertheless, does it set the stage for some sort of constitutional showdown as some experts think, is this going to the Supreme Court?
Well, the Supreme Court has to decide. Certainly the decision in the colle or state supreme court. That's a natural path to go from a state supreme court to the federal courts. And of course this is a state question.
Who gets on the ballot?
Is time manner in place? In other words, that clause of the Constitution that's controlled by states, not the federal government unless it's overridden by a federal law. We don't have actual massive federal law on ballot access.
We leave that to the states.
So Supreme Court has to decide, are they going to punt it and just say this is a state matter altogether they've been devolving a lot of things to the state in their term, or will they say this is a misapplication of the provision of the Fourteenth Amendment and get involved. And I think people don't know yet, but now that there's a second state involved, I do think it's going to be more pressurable build on them to at least hear the coloradle case.
Meanwhile, of course many anticipate here is indeed the front Russer runner as it stands for the Republican nomination. We also know he'll be up against one current President Biden. President Biden being busy at the moment, he's taking to the air waves talking about an overnight Russia attack launched larged aerial assault on Ukraine and the latest attack shows Putin's objective remains unchanged. All of this while really President Brden tries to garner some sort of support for further
aid to Ukraine and indeed to Israel. At that how much is that likely to be passed? How much is that going to be taking up the headspace of well the administration at the moment.
Well, the issue is that there's a very short window until the first deadline for refunding the government for fiscal year twenty twenty four comes, which is January nineteenth, and then the bigger blow up date is February second, And so the House of Representatives is the place to watch certainly living you know Linston, the leader from Louisiana, and thinking about the speaker, thinking about whether that clucus can hold together. There's a very strong opposition to sending more
money to on behalf of Ukraine. Certainly the amount of the bid administration is asking for, which is fifty or sixty billion, there's only fourteen billion or so for Israel. Point is, there's enough people in that Republican clock is to kill any aid bill, So Democrats will have to come to the rescue and Israel. Gauzla is very controversial
in the Democrat Party. So the appetite for sending more money to overseas countries while you're fighting about cutting the US budget, which is the fight the Democrats and Republicans are going to have. That is an incredibly difficult path to walk for the current speaker in a divided Republican.
Claus And when it appears that one of the strategies from the Republican Party is to tie any aid to Ukraine and Israel to border security and maybe border policy, what's the status of that.
Well, that's actually a win for the administration. If the bidenmistration is forced quote unquote to accept more aid to reinforce the border, that means that they'll probably reinforce the border and diminish some of the migration that's happening, which is a soft spot for Biden going into twenty four. So if he has to quote unquote compromise, it's actually something that is in his favor because it better insulates
him against charges on the border. We saw the Sector of State actually go to Mexico to talk about how we can get.
Mexico to help with the border.
So I think the Biden administration realizes this is a very important factor going into the election. Even people very far away from the border seem to be very concerned about it, And there's a big balance between worrying about Ukraine and Israel and our southern border.
But that's a gift to Biden.
Even though Republicans want it and they'll claim credit for it, it's also a gift to Biden that I think he'll happily accept.
Hey, Wendy, want are good friends in Washington do come back to work in the new year.
They've got a big to do list.
I wonder what's a I would guess at the top of that to do list is it's keeping this government open and funded. How is that going to proceed? Do you think are we just going to kick the can down the road the entire year.
Well, I mean, because of the debtinally negotiations, it's very difficult to kick the can down the road. If they don't do certain things, bigger cuts will happen in the summer, which is closer to the November elections, so very few people want that. The problem for the Republicans is Donald Trump may very well win the Iowa caucuses on January fifteenth, The deadline is the nineteenth, and then he's propelled into
the twenty third, which is New Hampshire primary. He is going to be the spokesperson for the Republican Party and for some people that's fantastic news. For other people, that's chaos. So if the Republicans in the House do not manage to keep the government open, that's further chaos. So it sets the stage for the Republicans bearing the label of chaotic and unable to govern. And I think that's what the Democrats are counting on to push Republicans to prevent any long term shutdown.
This kind of takes us a nicely full circle back to the discussion of an election of twenty twenty four and who will be the front run of for the Republicans. I mean, just of late, we've seen Nicki Haley, who is gaining some momentum, sort of do an unforced era once again, sort of being brought into a racially charged controversy that seems to be coming time and time again. And then twenty twenty four fight, is she just unlikely to manage to win out Anne indeed Dessantis at that point.
Well, we have to look at Iowa. You know, Trump has such a big lead in Iowa. Does that translate into a really big win in the caucuses or does it really tighten up when they go in to vote. And if there's actually momentum, If either disantras Her or Nicki Elli gets something like thirty percent of the caucus vote rather than where they are on the polls now or thirty five percent, that shows some vulnerability for Trump
going to New Hampshire. If Nicki Alli doesn't win but comes in a really close second, for example, again more momentum for the challengers to Trump, then I think it's a little bit less certain that the party goes with Trump. So I think that's the big thing to watch in the next couple of weeks. Nickielli's remarks really reflect the divide in the Republican Party. Desantans has already gone this way in Florida on the issue of revisiting slavery, discrimination,
the legacy of the country. You know, there's a real appetite to move on from that in the Republican Party. But the independent voters and suburban voters that might be Nikki Haley's big base that can cross over and vote Republican primaries, for example, they're uncomfortable with abandoning that and they don't like that side of the Republican Party. So she's really caught strategically in a really difficult place and who she appeals to in the next basically the next month.
Wendy Schiller.
There's a lot of topics, and I think we're going to be talking to you often in the new year as we think about domestic politics, geopolitics.
In an election year.
Wendy Schiller, she is professor at Brown University, and there's a lot of ground to cover in that type of discussion.
You're listening to the tape cans are live program Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio. Tune it up Bloomberg dot Com Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
And continuing on personal finance, you got to talk about residential real estate and real estate in general because for many Americans, their home is their biggest asset.
And boy, we've had a.
Really really high interest rates and real shock to the system. But now rates you're coming back down. So what does that mean for the residential real estate market. Well, Selma Hepp joined us. She's a chief economist at Core Logic. Salma, thanks so much for joining us here. I mean, I guess the key question for me is affordability. That is really a challenge for many folks out there.
Talk to us about where we are there.
Yeah, so, I mean, we're seeing definitely a lot of improvement in terms of affordability simply because you're paying much more on your cosset of home ownership is much lower with decline and mortgage rates. So let's put this in numbers.
You know, when mortgage rates were over eight percent and with the decline now to six point six six percent over the last week, you're looking at the saving of about three hundred dollars on a five hundred thousand dollars mortgage, right, And so the more expensive the mortgage gets, the more
the more of savings you have. The issue really these days is in terms of affordability, even when mortgage rates come down, is that it's really difficult in many ways to find to get a mortgage unless you are a very credit worthy borrower.
And also you're competing a lot against a lot of people that.
Have cash or are coming down with large cash down payments, and so you know, there's many aspects of affordability.
It's not just mortgage rates at the moment exactly right.
And you know what I'm kind of thinking about is one of the key issues in the real estate market is nobody wants to move out of their house. Therefore there's no existing home sales or they're very very low.
If you want a home, you got to go look for a new one.
So my question, is there a mortgage rate do you think that would kind of like be a clearing rate, if you will, where it would entice sellers to sell and buyers to buy. Deserves when you talk to you get a sensor's a clearing rate, Yeah.
That's a billion dollar question this year because everybody is asking at what point people will give up that inventory. There's been some surveys out and they show that five point five percent seems to be a magic rate.
It's really difficult to say that.
That would actually happen, at least for sellers because a majority the median rate is still about three point eight percent, so people are still locked in in that rate and they bought probably before you know more home prices have gone up some forty percent. So when you think about how much you've seen how much appreciation we've had over the last few years.
It's been forty percent. So that's a lot to consider.
You know, it's not just your mortgage rates you're giving up, but you're also giving up the much lower of a home, so you know, so that's.
You know, that's kind of I think. What's going to keep people put for a little while.
What is sentiment like right now? How many consumers out there think this is a decent time to buy.
Or not many? Not many?
And it's actually that sentiment has been on a decline at least until you know, We'll see what happens in next month or two. With the decline that we solve over the last couple of weeks. I think that will improve the sentiment. The other thing is, you know, we are going into spring home buying season that tends to be see a better sentiment, and people do tend to
come out in a spring home buying season. And you know, if you remember what happened last year, mortgage rates peaked in November and then they declined coming into spring home buying season, and we had a really good season at least in terms.
Of how many buyers came out.
The problem was that sellers didn't come out, and so we saw a lot of home press appreciation. That actually may happen again this year. We'll see more buyers than sellers. It will put pressure on home prices and that tends to challenge affordability again.
Hey sama, one of the challenges I know out there is that while the builders and their home building company stocks have just ripped in twenty twenty three, done really really well because there's so much demand out there, But I'm wondering what are they building. Are they just building the next McMansion around the corner, or are they building the homes that kind of starter homes that you.
Young people need to get into the market.
We have a sense of what's coming onto the market in terms of new construction.
Yeah, it does feel like they are tending to move towards more traditional, smaller homes. In the data we've seen recently the size of a home declined by some ten percent for twenty twenty builds versus twenty twenty three builds, So it does seem like they're building smaller home They're trying to adjust to who their buyers are at the moment.
One thing I suppose while consumers out there don't feel like it's a good time to buy, there are people sitting pretty. There are people who have looked at the you of the home equity and probably felt a little bit more buoyant and stride in their step. Who have those people been Where have been benefiting the most of.
Like, Yeah, that's the really interesting is that, you know, Ecological we do a home equity report every quarter and in the last report we saw home equity increase to about three hundred and four thousand dollars on average per mortgage borrowers. So that means across country right on average, people have over three hundred.
Thousand dollars in equity.
Now that's much larger in more expensive markets and more markets that have seen.
More appreciation over time.
So one market that leads, one state that leads is Hawaii, that's over six hundred thousand dollars on average in equity, followed by California about five hundred and eighty thousand dollars. So some of that what's interesting about this is particularly California for example, or Washington State.
Those are also the markets where we see a lot of migration from.
So those folks not only have tend to have higher incomes, but they also have more of that cash saved up, you know, and so that actually tends to feed into home press appreciation in other markets that they're moving to.
Hey, some interesting development, A bill introduced in the House and Senate would prevent hedge funds from owning single family host houses in the United States. From your perspective, how prevalent has Wall Street institutional investors been in buying up residential real estate over the last several years.
Yeah, much more so during the pandemic. Before the pandemic, we saw about eighteen percent of single family homes being bought by investors, and that share increased to about twenty eight percent at the peak of the pandemic, but actually it remained there. The reason is that overall sales are up, so as a share it does remain elevated. But one thing to keep in mind is that it's mostly small investors. Over fifty percent of these purchases are actually small and
medium investors. At large investors, the institutional investors that we're worried about, they actually comprise pretty small share overall purchases of single family homes.
Samma, it's great to have you from Colgank.
It's the chief.
Economist Selma hat joining us on all things real to state, whether it's hedge funders, whether it's me mortals trying to be buying a home.
You're listening to the tape cans our live program, Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Let's get more on what exactly travel trends are looking like. Joining us now is the Points guy, Brian Kelly. Very nice to have him on the program. Brian, Obviously we're coming out of the holiday travel season for twenty twenty three. We're just coming out of twenty twenty three as a whole, and when you're looking ahead to twenty twenty four, how
much is that travel demand going to be resilient? The CEO of Carnival there just suggested that this is no longer revenge travel, that we're seeing that that's over and demand is still sticking around. How do you see it?
Yeah, I see it the same. You know, revenge travel to me is sort of like people were paying ridiculous amounts to go to Miami. I remember when hotel rooms in Miami were like two thousand dollars a night, and I think now consumers are much more discriminating. They want
better experiences. So we're seeing a big shift into adventure travel on hotels dot Com hold a bunch of data recently people are now looking to stay at really unique accommodations and riokens and going to Morocco and staying at riodds. So I think consumers are spending they just don't want to do get stuck in that pandemic habit of overpaying for moderate hotels.
So, Brian, where are we?
You know, we just heard the CEO, Josh To CEO of Carnival, talking about he's just mentioning he was in a New York's in a New York hotel and it's not having a great experience. Some of the services maybe have been cut back. You know, initially when things were opening back up, hotels would say we're not going to make your room every day, We'll make it once every two or three days. And you know, we did see some service issues as that industry tried to get back.
On its feet.
Understandably, where we in terms of the hotel industry and staffing and service levels, are we back to pre pandemic levels.
We are not at pre pandemic levels. And really that in the mid tier they took the pandemic as an opportunity to roll back room service, cleaning. You kind of still have to argue at some of those mid tier properties to get those same perks back. I think at the luxury side of things, the luxury hotels are now competing like never before. I think the service levels are
back at the high end of the spectrum. But now in general, a lot of hotel chains took this as an opportunity to cost cut in the name of safety and then really take it back to where it was.
Well, Brian, you talk about the high end of the spectrum, what is the difference between kind of the luxury tourism and travel now and those seeking deals? Are there still good deals to be found and where are they?
Yeah, there are actually really good deals and airfare has come down quite a bit. Gas prices are down as well, so there is the positive outlook for travelers in twenty twenty four. The budget airlines are actually struggling because the consumers are spending on these bespoke experiences and they're spending in first and business class. I don't know if any of you looked at flights to Europe this past summer. I was absolutely shot eight thousand dollars to go to
Paris from the US. So the airlines are making a fortune. You know. United has a big bet on the Pacific. They just launched a new route to christ Church, New Zealand. They're seeing strong bookings Asias now, not quite back to where it was, but increasing dramatically. So the gains in travel I think are international and luxury. You know, the loes and spirits of the world. They have a much less rosy outlook. And I was just checking. And back
to your question on where to find the deals. I love this tip and no one knows about but Google flights. So Google dot com slash flights. That's where most people travel experts go to search airfare. They have a little feature called Explore, so it'll say flights. Click the Explore map. You can actually type in New York to say Caribbean, so you want to go for a week in March. You can basically reverse engineer. And this is what I'm
telling people. There are deals out there, you just need to know where they are, so you can put New York to Caribbean and see where the cheap flights are. That's how you find your parises.
Always not me on Fogle flights right now, Yes, I know, I'll take a so Brian.
My personal flying policy these days is I only fly when I get paid to fly, with a couple of exceptions coming up. But where's the airline industry in terms of capacity today? Can they handle these record flights and record number of flyers we're seeing and that includes the whole tsa folks, Where's our system these days.
You reminded me of Naomi Campbell. You only get out of bed for ten thousand dollars or more.
I like it.
So capacity is an issue. You know, there still are strains on air traffic. The FAA actually just opened up new lanes along the East Coast to allow more planes to fly. But our airports are congested, especially in New York. And while there are some renovations going on at JFK and some of our nation's biggest airports, it's not really going to create the capacity we need, so there are issues there. Airlines can't just expand and add tons of
new routes, especially to places like London. We've seen Jeff Blue try to expand to Amsterdam and London. They're getting the second tier airports. So you know, these airlines are struggling to grow and running into a lot of challenges. So they need to figure out how to maximize the revenue of what they have today. And that's why we've seen airlines really charge up premium and customers are paying
for first class. You know, ten years ago, eighty percent of first class seats on Delta were given to elite members for free. Now it's flipped. Eighty percent of people are buying first class and twenty percent are going to elite travelers. So the airlines are doing whatever they can to maximize everything on board that they have today.
Yeah.
I just recently went to Europe, and to your point, Brian, the actual business class tickets where you get the live flat seats and everything were wildly expensive. So I did premium economy from the first time.
Yeah, how was us?
It's pretty nice, you know, it definitely made a difference.
Also, I couldn't do that.
Yeah, please, okay, not for everybody. And Brian, you've got me on Google Flights now. Yeah, just so you're aware. Sixty seven dollars round trip New York to Miami January twenty first to twenty seventh on Frontier on fothing tells me maybe Paul wouldn't.
Be a fly in Frontier.
Brian, you were talking about how airlines are able to maximize all this stuff. They're getting people to pay for first class, and that brings me to lounges. When we think about points and rewards, it feels like everybody gets to in the lounge now, and the lounges are too crowded and they're starting to pull everything back. How much more kind of restriction in that are we going to see?
Well, so back to the point, the airlines need to make more money out of what they have today adding tons of new planes and routes. They can't even buy new planes, you know, there's backlogs. So what they're doing is turning to loyalty. All of the credit card you know, all the major airlines, Delta, United, American, they're making billions
from their credit card partnerships and they're doubling down. So what we're seeing now in terms of lounge access, you know, Delta really is pulling back next year and especially in twenty twenty five. American Express Platinum used to be able to use that to get in the Delta lounges and even bring guests into their own Sentorian lounges. Now they're making you spend at least seventy five thousand dollars on the card to get a perk that used to be
for free. So and it's brilliant business when you think about it, because every time you use a credit card or an airline co branding card, that airline's making money. So they need to figure out how to take their customers at fly a couple times a year and get a piece said, They're spend every single day. So that's the trend. These frequent flyer programs are now frequent buyer programs.
Real quickly, Brian thirty seconds. What's a wellness resort? It doesn't sound like something that's down my alley.
Yeah, yoga, you know, no ask Actually some of them have alcohol. Mira Ball and Mira Ball's a Hiatt property. You can use your Higatt points at Mirrorball properties. But you know that definitely is a trend people wanting to escape and focus on wellness.
But all right, I like the escape part, I'm just not sure sure about the wellness.
Brian Kelly, Thank you very much, Brian Kelly. He's the Points Guy.
We always learn something today every time we speak to Brian.
He's the founder and CEO of the Points Guy.
Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews in Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller nineteen seventy three and on Ball.
Sweeney I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio