Inflation, ESG, Video Games, And Streaming (Podcast)

I own partner, Oxbow Advisers. Chance you know the last I don't know four or five weeks have suggested that the market might be thinking maybe this FED can go slower rather than faster in terms of raising rates. How do you think about it? Yeah, Hi, Paul and Matt, I think yeah. It's been interesting to see this rally here July and into August. It seems like investors are getting more excited that the FED may be able to

pull off this soft landing. We don't think, though, that the lower than expected inflation number yesterday really changes the Fed's plans. We think they're still going to hike in September and November. You wouldn't really see them hit a point that you might think they'd be about done hiking until you see the federal funds rate above the two year rate. That's usually when you'd start to see maybe they would start to pivot in terms of their activity.

But we would expect the inflation rate to still only come down slowly, and we're still seeing an economic slowdown. So for us, our positions unchanged that we continue to be pretty cautious in this environment. We did see the two year come down drastically UM after the CPI number. Now it's at three spot one seven three per cent, so it looks like we need to go another sixty seven point three basis points. Do you think they're gonna go seventy five chance? I don't know. It seems like

maybe they just go with fifty um. Although when you have the equity market rising like this, they kind of given them permission to raise however much they want. Uh. Really, only when the equity market starts to go down into a significant extent that you think maybe that might really pressed whether they want to push through as many hikes as they'd intend to, especially with three and a half

percent unemployment. I know it's a backwards looking data point, but still, uh, they seem to be really interested in

front loading. I think that's the case. And I think the other thing to keep in mind is, even though the month over month number on inflation was lower than expected and you're starting to see, Okay, maybe we peaked at nine percent last month and now it's going to start trending down, you're still looking at an above eight percent annual inflation number and how many months in a row of real wages being negative for workers around the country.

And that's really where their top of mind is. And like you said, if the unemployment rate is this low, they're gonna want to keep pushing on that to try and get back to an inflation number that at least allows wage growth to be at least even, I know, rather than losing versus inflation. Yeah, but this you look at this equity markets chance and he really gets your attention here. I mean, we get the SMP up, you know, sixt offense low, the NaSTA on offense low. I mean,

you can't it's nothing to sneeze at. But is it now suggests that maybe there's some risk greater risk in the equity markets right here? Or do you think there's more upside to go? We certainly think there's greater risk at these prices. Just some numbers that we've been looking at. First, the forward price to earnings ratio is back to nearly eighteen times, which that's above the historic average, and that's

with earnings growth decelerating. We just went through a quarter of earnings reports where it really was the energy, materials, and industrial sectors that carried the earnings growth, and we would expect their contribution to fade a bit and the quarters that come considering the commodities prices are now starting to come down. And then just looking at our own portfolio are long term growth strategy that we managed for

our equity clients. We try to hold positions for the long term, but we look at all of the positions in there, there isn't a single one in that list that we would consider to be undervalued versus their UH on their current valuation versus their historic average. So it just tells you how much markets have rallied back and

we don't see much opportunity at these prices. We've had actually been reducing our exposure to cyclical sectors that typically do well late cycle but then start to underperform in a recession, So like financials, energy, and materials. We've been cutting back in those areas. How do you assess earning season so far? I mean what, um, you know, what kind of forward e from the forward price earnings ratio

can you gauge from what we've seen. Yeah, it seems like this current quarter that just we got done reporting, Uh, everyone has seemed to already expect there's going to be some disappointment. So it was actually the first quarter you had in quite a while where companies that reported mrs actually were up one percent the day after they reported, which that rarely ever happened. So that tells you how

low expectations were. But it is notable to us that companies with very long track records of outperforming expectations reported mrs, like Microsoft or Alphabet and uh, and that just tells you that it's going to be a more difficult environment in the quarters to come. And you're still seeing some news coming out like we're seeing with a Nvidia or icon that there's some weakness on the horizon. And uh, frankly, it's almost a quarter early for some of those semiconductor businesses.

I think it was gonna be more the third quarter that people were expecting to see that weakness and it arrived even sooner than that. So monitoring this closely. Alright, Chance, question of the morning. Here, You've got your undergraduate degree and your NBA Indiana. What the heck is a Hoosier? I actually I don't even have a great explanation for that. Nobody does. No, I don't know, um and I'm probably failing for everybody who who grew up and I went

to school at that there. But I wouldn't be able to agree with you a great definition. I mean, my mild definition. It's somebody from Indiana. I think that might be. It actually is basically it not based off an animal or anything like That's like, it wasn't the state bird? Is it a state? I got nothing, and I've asked every Indiana grad I know, I got nothing. But anyway, Chance, thanks for chipping in there. We appreciate it. Chance Fukan

c I O partner Oxbow Advisors. Danielle Bragg, a founder and CEO of Defined dot AI, joins US fashionating area of technology artificial intelligence. Danielle, thank you so much for joining us, just for my own sake. How do you define artificial intelligence? Hi? Medh and everybody? Well, artificial intelligence is the simulation of a of a human brain. And just like a name says artisticially, so it is it counts with unlight and unlike UH software, it is trained,

it is not coded. So it's just like a human brain. The more we learn, the more we can resolve daily situation. And you know, I think I heard a lot about this a couple of days ago as President Biden signed the Chips Act. Is the federal government subsidizing AI research? You think enough that we can keep up in the kind of race to win technology. Well, the the US government has been has been growing AI investment across all their uh, all the departments that that has been on

the rise in the last five years. We have now this Unair Task Force for the for the Investment of AI in the Nation, which I'm part of alongside with my colleagues twelve called well independent people. So yeah, the West CONN continues to pour. But the interesting thing is that the US on itself, the United States with the private sector part as well, has been has invested fifty two point nine billion last year, UH, followed by China

very far out with seventeen point two billions. So we are putting in the public and the private sector are a lot of investment. So where where where do you think the most I guess appealing or attractive applications for artificial intelligence are because you know, I listen to conference calls, quarterly earnings conference calls, and I've got companies from you know, like cookie makers, to technology companies, to entertainment companies, to

people who make shoes whatever, everybody's carmakers. Everybody talks about artificial intelligence in their business. So I'm just wondering, where do you think some of the most you know, tragic actuations are. Yeah, well, the thing is a lot of people talk about it and they're not doing AI. They are still doing rule based systems and they just INSERTA

to where they A because it looks more fancy. But where the thing is exciting right now, And you can see in the rise, including in our business, which is what we see our clients do is conversationally everywhere, which is this part of the I where you can talk two machine as you are talking to people. And this is happening across everywhere. So in fitness steak in of course, now we we are I mean in education and healthcare with tele medazine, with and the classic ones on virtual

systems and in the car and in the house. And if you combine conversationally I with robots, that will help you whether you're in a work setting on or you environ in a in a homesteading with daily tasks around the house. This is becoming really exciting. How long until it actually works? I mean I've been using the newest and best car in fontainment systems. You know, I test out new cars every every couple of weeks, and it

never really works. I'll say, you know, like play the grateful Dead channel for me and it'll call my mom that That is a great point. The investment done so far is still not up to the results the we should be at already. Uh And and on top of that, while language model language models are more capable than ever and you probably all know the latest on the the suspicion that Google has created as C D N A I, which is not We're so far from resolving the basics.

We can't get into the emotion emotionally I yet. But the problem with that is the as you as you grow more larger models, the models are more biased too, and the rise of the ethical AI is everywhere, which also translates into regulations, and we've seen from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one bills in twenty twenty five countries going from one to eighteen. And now you see all the data privacy all around. So now you're right, we're

very far. I'm glad you brought up the sentient AI at Google because that's one of my favorite stories, really non market stories of the here. But are we in a race to our own enslavement or death? I mean, isn't this AI going to eventually take us over or kill us? I mean a movie about that. I think Ellen must Bill Gates. All these people are worried about that the terminator, Well they yeah, they are really being in the space for twenty two years and understanding how

slow technology moves in these fields. We are still resolving barely, like you guys said, the narrow AI problem, which is resolving one task at the time. Lets let alone a contextual, contextual information interaction between systems. We're very sharp on that. We are in towards the world and more and more this ethically I is uh an every big company and

small company has this UH this charter. Now starting data, if you starting the data side but everybody is on the same path to work along machine and not replace humans. Humans activity will continue to be right for generations her years from now, I hope so. Daniel Le Bragga, founder and CEO of to Find dot Ai. Our next guest is from the Great State of Ohio. And remember Mary, yesterday we were talking about Cedar Point. They had the Gemini, they have the Demon draw but they but they never

to me. I never thought it was as good as King's Island, probably because King's I was a little bit further away. I couldn't get there as easily, and King's Island had the Beast, which was the largest wooden roller coaster in the whole world. Yeah. So the Beck Ramaswamy is in the studio with us right now. He has started um an asset management company called Strive Asset Management.

He's written a couple of books as well, um the most well, the first one being Woke Incorporated Inside Corporate America's Social Justice Scam, and the second book, I'm Gonna Guess is not yet published next month, next next month. So Beck is here with us in studio. I'm really excited because yesterday he launched his first E T F strive Asset Management's first e t f UM which is d r l L that's the ticker in the New York Stock Exchange, and uh, it was extremely successful. Tell

us about it. Yeah, we're happy to have seen this taken off. Hopefully that that, you know, trend continues, because I think it's really important what we hope to deliver to the U S energy sector the man It actually is really simple, dr LLL drill. It's a new what I call post E s G mandate to the U S energy sector, telling these companies that you should focus exclusively on what allows you to be most successful, most profitable over the long run, without regard to any other environmental, social,

or political agenda. As important as those agendas, maybe we should sort them out through the political process, but in the boardroom, we're focused exclusively on the success of companies and that's a really different message then you get from other large asset managers, and we think we need to have that debate well in the boardrooms. It was described to me yesterday when we were talking about your launch, because is we're gonna have you on Bloomberg's e t

f i Q on Monday UM. It was described to me as an anti woke e t F. And my first thought was, why would you want to do an anti woke or awoke e t F because you wanted the goal of investing is to make the most money you can. And then so it's not, actually it's anti woke e t F. It's not. I have I have literally no idea why the well, Actually, my best guess is in fairness, my book was called woking. I wrote

that in a personal capacity. So maybe people want to push this narrative together for a headline, but for Stripes purposes, our goal is to focus companies on excellence. There's nothing woke or anti woke about it. And you know what, I think that the E s G movement may have offered some useful lessons for energy companies in the last decade, maybe not the ones that they offered as their headlines, but energy companies did overspend and over lever in the

early twenty teens, saying they're investing for growth. The shale revolution was assigned shiny object. Interest rates were low, there

were some mistakes made for profitability in this sector. So I think there are good lessons learned, but I think the time has come to move past that e s G investment consensus to say, you know what, fossil fuels are not going anywhere after and if American energy companies can actually invest to fill a massive looming supply, demand and balance for global energy, that can lead these companies

to be more successful to trade at higher multiples. They traded a lower multiple than the SMP five hundred, certainly than US Tech today. They traded a lower multiple than they've traded over their last thirty year average. I think a b SG movement is in large part responsible for that.

We can unlock value by causing these companies to behave in a way that actually takes exclusively their own financial interests over the long run into account, rather than these environmental and social agendas that have been imposed on them top down by their shareholders. And it's interesting because when I went to business school many moons ago, I learned that the responsibility of the corporation was to maximize profits for shareholders. Uh that has changed, I guess over the

last six, seven, eight years. I think the Business Roundtable even came out with something saying kind of replacing shareholders with stakeholders, introducing this whole against certain elements of the E s G concept. Um, that's what I learned, and I went to the most leftist college in the entire country, exactly in Antioch. So what's the response been to your your book, this E T F. Maybe I know you've had discussions probably with investors, boards, things like that. What's

the feedback. So the feedback, certainly behind closed doors, is almost universally positive. And then I think even in the open what I've been pleased about is we're starting conversations that people were not having, and I want to see those conversations happen in the boardrooms of U S energy companies. I think we're gonna catalyze. It actually spoke to the one of the largest that might be the largest energy conference in the country. It was the Intercom conference in

Denver earlier this week. It was a room full of oil and gas ceo s. I don't think it's because of the quality of my speech, but I got a standing ovation at the end of the speech, which actually mystified.

There was a reporter in the room who tweeted about this, who said, wait a minute, why are the same oil executives who told me that they believe in their E S G principles giving a standing ovation to Vec ramist Amy speech because she, I think misunderstood it to be anti E s G. I think the things she missed is we're talking about moving forward past the E s G investment consensus to meet an important human need. We have a massive energy shortage, a supply demand imbalance that

isn't just short term. This isn't going away because systematic underinvestment in production is a multi year peycle, not being an energy When I see these energy prices going higher and higher and higher, that yes, come back a little bit. I see what's going on in Ukraine and Germany and the and the energy crisis they're having in Europe, which

is going to get even worse this winter. Mike's dumb question is like, just go build some more refineries on the Gulf coast and we'll crank all this stuff out. It would you really do that? In this regulatory environment that my own president goes to Saudi Arabia before he goes to Texas, Well, you know what it's it's it's really interesting. So I think that there's there's two shackles on the U s energy industry. One is imposed by policymakers.

The second is imposed by lowercase p policymakers through the E s G movement in the boardroom. I'm actually optimistic on the first of those. So here's something that I think most market participants have not caught up to yet.

But it was a big deal West Virginia versus e p A. I personally think it was the most important Supreme Court case on this year's docket, which found that one of the regulations imposed by the e p A on the coal industry was actually unconstitutional because it caused the EPA basically exceeded the scope of the statutory authority granted to it by Congress. If that was unconstitutional, then most of the regulations on the U. S energy industry

are also unconstitutional. And guess what the one way to fix that is for Congress. In the spring Court basically implies this Congress could pass the law and make it part of the law. That's not gonna happen after what's coming this November, after the changing political wins in this country.

So on the political and regulatory side, I think what people see as a headwind amongst investors could actually be a tail wind for the sector that leaves the real remaining obstacle to be in the boardrooms imposed by e SG linked asset managers. That's what we're hoping to fix it strip. By the way, a lot of people on the left also think that was the most important ruling,

but they're very much ended it right. Well, Congress is going to have to make laws for every single regulation rather than uh, you know, giving that power to a board like the body like the e p A exactly. Let let me ask quickly, how difficult is it to go up against the goliath in the E t F industry like black Rock, which does have some pretty strong E s G and sustainability principle. But we'll find out.

It's it's it's we announced it yesterday. I will say that the folks of the New York Stock Exchange told me it was one of the strongest, if not strongest launch of its kind in years that they had seen. And I think that again, I don't take credit for that.

I think that this is this is a demand that already exists amongst capital owners in this country, amongst everyday citizens whose money is today being invested by large asset managers who are delivering messages to the energy company's boardrooms that most of those everyday citizens disagree with. So that's what we have going for us is I think the majority of capital owners, the majority of capital does not want the black Rock message delivered to the boardrooms. They

want the Strive message, I believe, delivered to the boardrooms. Now. The question is there's a lot of plumbing to do to make sure that capital can actually flow through vehicles like ours that actually speak on their behalf. It's up to us to see if we can do it. All right, Thanks so much for joining us here in our studios. Here the fact. Ramiswanny, co founder and executive chairman of Strive Asset Management. I'm not a gamer, Matt, you probably know that. But our next guest is going to give

us a kind of lay of the land. What's going on in the world. I used to be a big gamer back in the day. I have. I've bought every single Call of Duty release and spent hundreds of dollars in the game up until what age, up until I had a baby, which was October. That's when I stopped putting in three to four hours the world. You're forty eight years of age, and but I will play until the end of my life. I love playing called. Mark Alfinbain,

CEO of X one e Sports, joins us. Mark, give us a sense of kind of where we are in the gaming market trends, you know, kind of prependemic, going into the pandemic and now coming out of the pandemic. Yeah, thanks for having me here today and just going back, if you held onto some of those video games you're talking about, they may actually be worth some money right now.

A lot of these video games self for like thousands of dollars on eBay, so you might want to hold onto the I've still got Duke Newcomb um for the Nintendo sixty four. I've still got Kid Chameleon, which is one of my all time favorite games um as well as obviously all the Mario titles. YEA, keep from a good condition and pass them down. But yeah, the the

you know, the industry really significantly increased. If we looked at the global value of the industry, just before COVID in around two thousand nineteen, the industry was around a hundred and thirty billion dollar industry, and by about two one it had grown to a hundred and eighty billion dollar industry. As you could imagine, um generations of people were at home and we're you know, spending a lot of time doing things like you know, looking at TikTok

videos and playing video games. So it generated a significant, uh, you know, sustainable bump for overall video game usage. I have to say, during the pandemic, I got this um high school friends chat group and we're all, you know, some of my buddies were paying like a grand for a Microsoft Xbox or for the PlayStation five because you couldn't just you couldn't find them anywhere. Is that demand? Has that fallen and has the supply caught up it? Actually,

interestingly it hasn't. So the you know, if you can find a PlayStation five right now, that's something you may also want to want to get your hands on. They've been very very elusive to find. Probably last year, I would say we're one of the largest Christmas gifts out there,

if you can, if you can get them. But between the consoles, the other thing really moving up on popularity is the virtual reality gaming we're seeing with the Oculus Quest, and that's almost like the next revolution of gaming as the aiming industry reinvents itself. Can you play legit games with that? I mean can you really, um have a first person shooter that works well with the oculus there are you know, there's a game up there called Population One,

which is a multiplayer game. UM and it's really the new form of social you know, kind of social communication. I would say, jumping on these multiplayer games, especially if you could imagine you're in the same virtual reality environment and your friends are, you know, people around the world. It's it's a really incredible experience. It's it's come a little bit since the days of Atari in the early eighties. I would say, I gotta say that's how I mean.

I've I was always into Atari and Nintendo and Sega. But when I first got a job and moved to Germany out of college, all my friends were scattered around the world and we couldn't really afford to call each other. So what we did is we all got xboxes, we all got Halo, and we would just sit in Halo in the chat, you know, and like shooting at each other. Well, it's also incredibly if you think about during COVID couldn't

really see people. People were are restricted, especially in certain parts of the world, and it's really was the only way to feel like you were with people during this time, which probably is the reason why the industry grew so tremendously during that cult period. Alright, Mark, I see on your CV that you have a bachelor's in business from the University of Manitoba. And to be honest to just to show my ignorance, I did not know where Manitoba was. I know it's in Canada, but wearing Canada. So I

go to my Google Maps. It's kind of right smack in the middle of Canada. It's home to Winnipeg and it's also home to Lake Winnipeg. Do people kind of is that a busy like summer place to go, like Winnipeg. Yeah, yeah, if you're if you're living in Winnipeg right now, chances you would not be in your home during the summertime. You're going to be at one of the lakes. Lake Winnipeg is a nice place called Grand Beach Um also a home actually of the NHL's Winnipeg jeff A Story franchise.

But the one thing I would say about Winnipeg, I think it might literally be the coldest place in the world, with the population of over five thousand people. I heard Philip, Well, so when you guys, have your fifteen minutes of summer. You've got to get out to Lake Winnipeg. It is so I think it's literally three months and you're really maximizing that time. So a lot of out there barbecues. Um, you do get de sensipized with the cold a little bit.

So if you come anywhere south of the border, winter is like summer too. All right, we gotta get you back on mar because I want to know about the the next sort of evolutions that are coming in the gaming industry. But we don't have any more time. So Mark elfen Bind, their CEO of x one E Sports, do a remote in Manitoba. The tick, yeah, we should do that. We should go up there. The ticker is this is on the Canadian Stock Exchange X one so

x O n E. That's some cool stuff. So yeah, I want to get to the sports next time we chat with them, because that's actually big business there. We're gonna talk about some this near and dear to my hard pol And I'm pretty excited about the story. Um, it's probably a big deal for you too, being a calms guy. Um, but the reporter we're gonna bring in he he dissed me pretty hard twice yesterday. Jerry Smith is a media reporter for Bloomberg News. One of them.

He wrote the story about CBS and NBC vying for the Big Ten um getting it from ESPN. And Jerry, you referred to the Buckeyes as Ohio State University, but you know it's the Ohio State University. Boy, And I can only imagine you did this because you're a Northwestern guy. Yeah. I just wanted to apologize personally to you for that and and I really do hope you forgive me. I even messaged you and you didn't message back. Busy guy. He's he's got big media moguls. He talks to Jerry

to me, the news was here the Big ten. You know, Big ten has been on ESPN for a very long time, and the ESPN kind of walked away. That's what shocked me. What's going on there? Yeah, so they walked away from the bidding, and it's it's a big deal because this is a relationship that ESPN has had with the Big Tent for about four decades UM, and the price just

got too high for them. Um. So what you know, what we expect to see now is that Big ten sports, with college football being the big draw, are going to be on Fox, CBS, and NBC. Fox is going to have that noon window, CBS will have a three thirty window, and and UM an NBC, which really to this point is just mostly broadcast Notre Dame football, they'll have the

evening window in prime time. So, I mean, I've covered the Walt Disney Company for decades from a financial analyst perspective, I I can't recall them walking away from too many marquee events. Now the Big ten here, we've got a cricket league, which I know that's a big fan of in India. I'm sorry, the India Cricket League. Um they walked away from that? Is? Well? Here is it? Are things changing at ESPN where they tightening their belts? Yeah, well,

I think a couple of things are happening. You. You're right. They are under pressure from Wall Street to UM you know, show more profits, particularly in streaming, and we saw that in UM some of the moves they're making, uh in their earnings yesterday where they're raising prices for their streaming services. Uh. So they are being a little more selective about what type of sports rights. Uh they go after and as

you know, sports rights to keep getting more expensive. Uh. The other thing to think about is ESPN is still has a lot of sports rights, and if you think about college they still have. They actually going to take over the SEC and a couple of years from CS and that's that's huge. I mean, that's arguably more popular

than the Big Ten in terms of college football. And then you've got you know, they have the rights to the a c S, the Big Twelve, the Pack twelve, which are going to be renewing renegotiating their rights soon. So I would not say that ESPN is walking away from college sports. They're very much uh still a major college sports broadcaster. But they did decide that the Big Ten is going to be too um, you know, just

too much too expenses for them. How about just broadly speaking about sports rights fees, Jerry, you can you cover a lot of these all these big media companies with court cutting at all and streaming taking a bigger percentage of viewership. How did the big media companies justify spending ever increasing amounts on sports rights when their audience is really in decline because of court cutting. Yeah, I mean, I think we're the media companies are really going to

start to feel the squeeze here going forward. I mean, on one hand, they're trying to protect the cable bundle and live sports is really the biggest reason why people are still subscribing to cable. But as you point out that there's cable subscriptions are really um. Cord cutting is accelerating, and the fees that these media companies get from cable subscribers is continuing to go down at the same time that they're paying more and more for these sports rights.

Uh So, yeah, it's um. That's part of why you're starting to see companies like ESPN be a little more selective because the money from the cable bundle UM is not supporting it's not going to support these ever escalating rights fees the way they used to. It hurts me to think of the SEC, well just in general, but as a better, more popular football company. It's close. No, it's I think it's it's not good what's happening. The Big Town was three and three against the SEC last season.

But I mean, Jerry, one of the things that we've seen is you know, these super the expansion Jerry, how how how much were the realignment really so you've got USC and U c l A going into the big tent exactly. And I mean it just kind of says, hey, Jerry, you're awake Forest undergrad. Like if you're the SEC for football, You're like, well, if I'm not in the SEC and I'm not in the Big Ten, where am I. I think we're seeing a real consolidation in both UM college

sports and college sports broadcasting. I think what you're starting to see now is that the Big Ten and the SEC are the super conferences, and ESPN and Fox are the broadcasters that have the rights. I mean, you know, Fox has UM, you know, part owner of a Big ten network, and they've got UM They've renewed their Big

Ten rights deal. And then ESPN as as chose in the SEC, so um, you know, and we I think we're going to start to see more schools that continue to go towards these bigger super conferences and UM it's really a rivalry that a lot of people feel like between ESPN and Fox here alright. So I mean I think that the question for a lot of folks is is it you know, if I'm a I don't know, the University of Colorado, If I'm Awake Force or even

a Duke. I mean, it just seems like if I'm not in one of these big power power conferences, I'm going to risk out on some of the losing the growth in the TV money which is kind of driving all of this. Um. I mean to put USC and U c l A to leave that Packed twelve or Pack ten, whatever it's called, it just seems sacrilege to me. And you're not gonna but it's all about the money, yeah, to eat TV money. So Jerry's just a trend that's

gonna continue. Do you think. I think the big test will be the next big college right sports rights deal, and that's going to be the Pack twelve. And then I think after that will be the Big twelve and we'll have to see, um, you know, whether the big broadcasters like ESPN are are willing to u spend um more and more money for these conferences that have lost some really popular teams. And then and then schools like Duke or Wake Forest aren't going to be able to

spend as much money on the program, right. So I mean, I mean, at least Duke has the hoops, which really drives the athletics. Well, wait for great football team they had for such how many people go there? Like a fifty people go to week for Erry Head Wait for you got thirty seconds Stary to give us breakdown wake Forest football? Why are they so good? You know, you'd have to have somebody smarter than me. But I feel like wake Forest has always um hunched above its weight.

I mean when I was there, there were four thousand undergrads and uh I was there when Chris Paul was there. Yeah, we had a nice run in basketball. Um so yeah, the conference is still is still strong. But um, you know, I think we're seeing with these sports right deals at Big ten and SEC really dominate, all right, Jerry good, good stuff. Jerry Smith excellent media reporter for Bloomberg News, phoning it in. I will note today thanks for listening

to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller three. Pet On false Sweeney I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio four