Golfer Greg Norman Uses Tech to Bring Millennials Back to Game

the great White Shark has landed. Greg Norman, founder of the Greg Norman Company in West Palm Beach, has come to our cold little studio here in New York Studio at New York City. Greg, we're so happy to have you today. You announced a couple of partnerships your company, one with Verizon, and I want to start with the one with Verizon. It is seeking to modernize golf courses in the way that they are designed. Um, can you

just describe a little bit about what his agreement really means. Well, let me just touch on the what you just asked me then about modernizing golf courses. When you look at the golf course of design business, it's been pretty much the same cookie cutter standard for generations and generations. What Verizon has done through their IoT platform is, for example, like smart cities, UM, you can learn a lot of things about a lot of individuals and about energy savings

by being very, very smart. I actually think that technology works brilliantly in the golf course design business. It creates efficiencies and maintenance, It creates efficiencies and sustainability. So you make these golf courses smart and how do you make them smartest through connectivity and their actech platform? Is that it was really the reason why I fell in love with it when I saw what they were doing with the vineyards in wine districts and it's an automatic flow

over into the golf course design business. So just on that one platform a line wasn't the reason why I signed up with Verizon or partner with Verizon. There was because we recognized the space in the golf industry UM that had never been not taking advantage of never being utilized before. The golf industry has gone backwards in the last decade from thirty million golfers in the US down about five may maybe even less twenty four plus million and m So how do we entice these people back

to the game. Well, okay, so just to put this into perspective, you have more than one hundred Greg Norman designed golf courses around the world. Uh and and this sort of smart golf courses that Verizon could help plan, would as you were saying, would drive efficiency of course design, maintenance and sustainability. Will you talk about modernizing a golf course? You have to think there still are so many courses that don't allow you to even have your cell phone

with you, let alone on. So, I mean we talk about connectivity and golf course, it seems like something that it doesn't drive so well. No, that's true that there is going to be a a segment of the market, which is some golf cup golf courses will not allow that to happen. I get that, I understand it. But how do you grow something? How do you how do you reach down to the millennials who have walked away from the game of golf basically, and how do you

bring them back? You bring them back with their devices connectivity. Right, every second you're awake, you have a device in your hand, right, we all do. We're all sitting there, we all look at it. We will play with it, whether it's emails, texting, YadA, YadA, YadA. So at the same time, you have the opportunity of playing your music there. So if a kid wants to go to the golf course and experience some fun times with his other millennial friends, why not let him play music?

Why not let him be connected to a device? Do you do you let people play music on your golf courses? Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. I have a a very very well known sports figure, probably the number one non sports figure in the United States. At the golf course I designed to build in South Flower. He'll play in a six and like four golf carts and four different individuals with music playing. What kind of music? What are they listen whatever, whatever

they want to listen to. It doesn't really matter to people get mad at each other. No, look, I think it's great. I've played a golf course in the Bahamas, barefoot, no shirt on playing music and drinking. Margharita Gregor was wondering, you said, ask him what should I drink while I golf? So there you go, Margharita's is the answer. Just talking about expanding golf courses, which areas around the world and even in the US, do you see as the most

ripe for new golf courses and expansion of your business? Great? Question. Take a country like Japan, for example, Japan is no more room for golf. They have twenty five hundred golf clubs, and within a golf club that could be eighteen holes thirty six. They have no ruined to expand because the costability golf course in Japan on the side of the mountains is too prohibitive. Then you get into places like Mexico for example, Mexico's are booming market for golf. It's

a it's becoming a golf destination. Now. I've been going building golf course down there for twenty four twenty five years, and it's just increasing, increasing increasing. Take the Middle East. I built golf courses and Omar and I built golf courses in Jordan. We're gonna open up the first eighteen whole golf course in Jordan's. People go Jordan's, you know, and all of a sudden, the golf industry spreading their wings. Here in the United States, we're starting to see golf

get a little bit more energy about it. Why. People are getting a little bit more disposable income in their pocket, so therefore they want to go out and enjoy the hobbies they do. And on top of that, it's it's the housing markets pretty much bottomed out, so people are going to look for golf course residential communities coming online in the next three or four years. And obviously the the It's the president of day is very much more pro business and pro development than the past one has been.

Greg Norman, thank you so much for us. I should mention that not only do you have this arrangement with Verizon, but also you announced today that you have an agreement with Authentic Brands Group, which is an owner of a global portfolio fashion, sports, celebrity and entertainment brands. Uh, you're gonna be working on managing your brand, So congratulations to you. Thank you so much for joining us. Definitely fascinating to think of how different golf would be if people were

driving around carts, blaring music and drinking Margarita's. But perhaps that will be the future as millennials get brought into the fold. Thank you so much, Greg Norman. As founder of the Greg Norman Company in West Palm b I am thrilled to introduce Kathleen Gaffney. She is a giant

in the bond world. She's co director of Diversified Fixed Income at Eton Vance, which oversees three billion dollars in assets and is based in Boston, but she asiss here in our Bloomberg eleven three oh studio, Kathleen, So nice to see you. I want to start with how investors remain flexible in the current environment. We were just talking about how it is undergoing so much change, both on an economic and political level h in the US and globally,

so you were saying flexibility is particularly important. How do you remain flexible? I think one of the best ways to remain flexible is keeping some dry powder. Having some cash right now makes an awful lot of sense. They're just there isn't a tremendous amount of value out there. Uh. We're going through a period where the central banks are going to be handing over passing the baton to the politicians. Uh, and so that makes for a very interesting environment. Um

QUEWI took everything that was risk oriented. Uh, two levels that we haven't seen in a long time. So there's not a lot of value, but the fundamentals are not bad. So it's a good time to fare it around for good long term opportunities and have some cash for when the volatility picks up. Because it's certainly well. Have your cash allocations been going up in your funds. We've been holding it rather steady and around ten percent or so, which is pretty high on average, because average two, two

to five would be more of a normal level. But that ten percent gives us that dry powder, so that if there is a reaction in the market, and we had a little bit of risk off last week, UM, that we're able to take advantage of it. But we're being patient about deploying that cash. It's not just every cell off that we're finding great opportunities. UM. We we're

taking our time. You know. I was looking at one fund that you helped manage, the EAT Advanced Multisector Income Fund, which is performed better than percent of its peers according to Bloomberg data over the past year to date as well as the past three years. So UM, I was looking at some of the allocations. It looks like energy has contributed contributed to some of those gains. UM. Going forward, you're talking about looking for those ferreting around for those

longer term opportunities, where are they? Uh? Excellent, excellent question, because I think what what I'm excited about is that with multisector we do have that flexibility to look into areas such as emerging markets. Also with currency. Credit is a big component as well. But I'm so glad not to be tied to a specific benchmark because then I can avoid the expensive securities because I don't need to own them, so I can own exactly what I think

is going to generate good total return. So it was interesting that you say that because carl I Staid, who is a bond fund manager at Western Has Management, came on yesterday and he said that there's been sort of this recession going through different industries in the bond markets. He says that the next hit could be in telecommunications because some of the big behemoths have have levered up so much. We're talking to a T and T, we're

talking Verizon. Do you agree with him? Uh? I think that that's quite possible because you do have an industry that is under pressure in terms of pricing. There's not a lot of flexibility in terms of what they can charge consumers, and you've got a lot of different technologies going on that are competing in the same areas. So it's ripe for some kind of uh uh switch or

transition to a new technology. So I can see that they've been made, that we've seen some acquisitions, and yes, the leverages is going up at a time when if you can't grow out of it or UH receive better pricing, it's going to be challenging. So are you avoiding those bonds to A T and T and Verizon. Uh, they don't offer They definitely do not offer a lot of value,

so we have no exposure there. UM. One other thing, you were talking about emerging markets, and we've seen a lot of new issuance from a lot of UH developing markets in the dollar bond market. Um. There was news over the past few days that Papua New Guinea, one of the weakest Asian economies, is playing its debut issuance five million dollars in dollar denominated debt. Does this concern you at all? Uh, it does a little bit, because it's not as if emerging markets is the place to be.

You really have to be very selective. And it was interesting to note that this issuance, the supply that we started to see happened at the beginning of the year, with a big wave of it coming just prior to the inauguration. So I think there was a sense that, uh, some of these issuers, countries and companies wanted to get in ahead of the new administration in case there was

going to be volatility. But actually what we've seen is a much brighter global growth story and less of what we were most afraid about in terms of protectionism with the new administration, and so there there are some really positive stories. In fact, i'd almost say that emerging markets are going more mainstream and offer better upside than the developed world. We're really struggling to get our act together in terms of handling the politics and getting growth going.

Which three countries do you think offer the greatest promise in emerging markets? Mexico, Brazil and India. And then going back to what you're initially saying about this transition for monetary policy to fiscal policy, do you think that President Trump has enough political will to put forward his one trillion dollar infrastructure spending plan and if he does in give some kind of fiscal stimulus in that scale, well we see some kind of retraction, some kind of like

you know, retracement in the in the stock and bond markets. Well, my thoughts about what the new administration can do um infrastructure is something that the market has already started to price in, and it does seem that that would be a good way to get UH folks at work the jobs that he so often talks about. UH. I think prior to the election there really was a mandate coming from the country to get growth and jobs going. UM. So that is out there and it needs to be addressed.

The challenge is going to be how do we pay for it? UH. With the UH failure of the healthcare to repeal and replace, that was going to be some savings, and the other sources to help out with paying for the infrastructure are not as positive for the economy. So I think that's going to struggle. But I do think there's a momentum on both sides of the aisle to get infrastructure going real quick. Twenty seconds. What's the weakest part of credit markets right now? Oh, great question. I

would say high yield UM. Both investment grade and high yield look expensive in the US. In the US, but I do think that high yield has become a lot more rate sensitive, and for that reason, you've got folks who have shortened up duration wise and aren't prepared for what UH kind of downside risk exists there Kathleen Gaffney, Come back anytime. Always a thrill to speak with you. Kathleen Gaffney, co director of Diversified Fixed Income at Eaton Vans,

which oversees three billion dollars. Well, we heard a lot about the company Carrier, which makes heaters uh and as part of United Technology Companies, we heard a lot about it or United Technology Corporation. I should say we heard a lot of it last year when President Trump touted his plan to save almost a thousand jobs at a plant in Indianapolis. But since then, Carrier could kind of be seen as a small lens into a very big

issue of globalization and the tensions that have emerged. Brian Gruley, a Business Week reporter, highlighted some of these in a recent Business Week piece. That is really terrific. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. I just want to start with what has happened since President Trump did help negotiate this deal to keep certain jobs in the US for a Carrier. The main thing is the plant continues to churn out ten thousand furnaces, gas furnaces, and their

electric cousins band coils a day um. But at the same time they're moving some of the fan coil production. It's essentially two assembly lines to Mexico, and that will result in the loss of five hundred some jobs, while another seven hundred seven and fifty will remain in Indianapolis UM building gas furnaces for quite some time, and United Technologies will be UH investing about sixteen million dollars and upgrading that plant, including some automation. Brian, did you spend

time in Indianapolis when you were writing the story. I did a couple of times. I was down there. It's a nice town. What was the mood like among some of the factory workers that you spoke with. Do they seem to be less angry about some of the shifts that the presidentship was talking about. Well, I think, um, certainly they would rather have their jobs than not. Some of them were of an age where they decided, you know, there's there's been a buyout of sorts negotiated, so they thought,

I'm going to move on. Some We're gonna take the money and go, thinking they might get UH fired anyway. And um, there were some who were keeping their jobs. I remember one I spoke with who said, I'm happy for the people who keep their jobs. I'm happy to have my job, but it's not just about me and the people who kept them. It's about all of us,

and that just the whole thing just makes me sad. Yeah. Well, Brian, I thought that your story was really compelling because it highlighted how carriers business doesn't have a lot of ways to innovate other than being cheaper. Uh, and that carrier, despite some of the political rhetoric, will continue to ride the globalization wave. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, sure, you know the furnace industry, Leasa, it's uh, the furnace, while it's evolved over the years, is still a pretty

basic appliance. It's not like, um, you know, Apple has a secret phone that can outdo Samsung or Ice versa. They're all pretty much the same. And so people rely on mostly on the people who the contractors and retailers who sell the furnaces. That's that's where they find the competition. And of course people look for the lowest price from

the most reliable workers. So that puts the manufacturers in the position of having to build as as good a product as they can but keeping prices low, and there's certain things they cannot control the price steal, the price of aluminum, price of copper, etcetera. Um, but they can't control their labor. Labor costs for one thing, and so you can go seek lower, much lower labor costs, for instance, by going to Mexico where many of the furnace and

air conditioner makers have gone. Yeah, you highlighted in your article that carriers unionized workers in Indianapolis are paid on average about twenty three dollars an hour. That compares to about three dollars an hour UH for their Mexican counterparts. How big of a proportion of the cost of carrier furnaces comes from that labor, Well, we don't know exactly, Lisa, but um, we do have information suggests that labor is somewhere between twenty the cost of the furnace, and so

you know that's that's a pretty sizeable chunk. Whereas, for instance, on an elevator again technologies also builds otus elevators, labor only represents about three percent of the cost and so you can eat some higher wages wage levels there when it's a less of a big percentage of of your

overall costs. You know, another thing that you highlighted that I thought was really interesting was that most of Carrier's key arrivals we're talking about Lennox International, Ingersol, rand Re Manufacturing in NorTech all manufacture most of their products outside of the US. Have they come under political pressure to keep factories here or move jobs back? No? Well, they still manufacture quite a bit here, but they've also moved quite a bit, uh to Mexico in particular, and they

buy a lot from other countries. But the answer to your question is no, Uh, they've They've come under no political pressure. And interestingly, when I called those companies for some help with the story, they wanted nothing to do with it. Were you surprised? No, Um, wouldn't you talk to employees in Indianapolis? What did they think would be the solution? Because clearly, I mean, it's nice to keep a factory open, but longer term, the globalization wave isn't

going away so quickly. Well, the United Steelworkers who represent those workers, UM, they have some pretty specific ideas. Um. You know, they would be in favor of some of President Trump's own proposals or his own ideas for levying border taxes on imports, for making other other countries who are who are taking our jobs pay more money to

get the products sent back to here. Um. Of course, they're big on currency fluctuations and how China has supposedly manipulated its currency to give itself an advantage in trade. And the steel workers and other unions for that matter are big on those ideas, and President Trump has endorsed some of them. Brian, really, thank you so much for joining us. A really fascinating story that really highlights the broader issue that goes beyond one company and one factory.

Brian Grooley is Business Week reporter, and he spoke with us from Chicago. Yesterday. President Trump signed an executive order to roll back climate change policies that were implemented under former President Barack Obama. Uh, this will have pretty wide spread ramifications, but in particular for power plant carbon regulations. And to get more details on what this may mean, let's bring in Rob Barnett. He's senior energy policy analyst

for Bloomberg Intelligence. Rob, thank you so much for joining us. So what are the implications for power plant carving regulations that were I guess tightened under under former President Obama but had been in place before that. Right, Well, the basic answer is, we just don't know yet. The timing of the announcement yesterday has been expected for a while.

We we knew President Trump was going to take some of this kind of action, and yesterday's executive order gives us a little bit of a sense of their playbook. But frankly, it's going to take years in all likelihood

for everything to play out. So most immediately yesterday, UH lawyers for the Department of Justice asked the U. S. Circuit Court of Appeals to UH suspend an ongoing case against the Clean Power Plan, basically descend it back to the Environmental Protection Agency so that they could revisit the rule and craft it in a way that's UH certainly more lenient for electric utilities and folks who want to use coal, But there's no guarante hee that the courts

are gonna do that, and ultimately the U. S. Court system is going to be the arbiter of what happens, and the courts are pretty slow moving into ties, so I think it's going to be a while before we have a true sense of what's actually going to happen. Well, can you just break down what we're talking about with some of these regulations that have tamped down the release of carbon by coal mining companies, for example in West Virginia, Kentucky, Pennsylvania,

and others. I mean specific companies, specific actions. What have these regulations meant. Absolutely, So the grand irony of all of this is that the Clean Power Plan was actually stayed by the Supreme Court, so it's actually not an effect right now. Many of the coal regulations that are that have been drivers of coal retirements and the decline and coal use actually relate to conventional pollutants, so mercury requirements,

ozone requirements, sulfur, nitrogen oxides, I could go on. There's a whole portfolio of those regular lations that nobody is talking about. President Trump administration is not looking at rescinding any of those, and those have been a big driver of the decline and coal use we've seen here in

the United States over the past decade. Now, the Clean Power Plan, if it were to stay on the books, would sort of continue that trend into the next decade if it were to stay around, But broadly in the near term, it's these other regulations in our view, that have been really the key driver of the big changes

we've seen in the coal industry. Well, so you talk with a lot of people and lobbyists and regulators, and I mean, is there any push to get some of these other regulations overthrown or addressed by President Trump's administration. It's certainly something that many folks in the coal industry would like to see. But to go back and touch some of those other regulations, which we view as somewhat more important here in the near term, uh, you have to rewrite the Clean Air Act. Congress is very busy.

This is not something we expect to see, uh, serious efforts on in the Congress. So really we're likely in a situation where we've still got all of these conventional pollutant requirements and so maybe there's some relief on carbon, but in our broadest assessment, we think it's going to be very difficult to reboot the coal industry. And you've got to keep in mind that a big factor is an even policy related cheap shale natural gas has really been giving coal a run for its money, and that's

a big part of the narrative. I mean, we continue to track and observe coal power plant retirements even since Trump won election last November. Well, you know, I'm Looking at Peabody shares right now, which is a big coal company cold producer, UH shares are up, you know, more

than twenty three percent today. You have to think it has something to do with the news that President Trump is trying to make good on his promises to make coal great again and to and to bring back a lot of these energy sources that have been beaten down own. I mean, what are what are these shareholders seeing UH that that that you're not maybe with respect to how promising these the rollback really could be simply the way

markets work. I mean that. I think there's clearly a sense of optimism on the executive order and and the news that we saw yesterday. But keep in mind that there are twenty two gigawatts of announced coal retirements here in the United States, about eight percent of the capacity in the US. Utilities say they're going to retire. And by the way, that hasn't slowed down since President Trump

was elected. A big plant out in Arizona, the Navajo Plant, earlier this year in February said they were going to retire that plant. It's the one of the largest in the US. And in an in in Ohio, a state that Trump won. Uh. The Dayton Empower and Light Utility said just a week ago they're going to retire their J. M. Stewart plant, and they're killing coal plants. So we continue to see these big shifts in the type of fuel

that utilities want to use to generate electricity. And ultimately the big driver of coal demand is power sector use. And so if utilities are switching to other fuels, it's gonna be hard to see uh demand out there for coal. Uh, you know, even if there is a rollback of the Clean Power Plan or of some of the other greenhouse gas rules that President Trump has been targeting. Rob Burnett, thank you so much for joining us. Fascinating as always. Rubbernett,

Senior Energy policy analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at iTunes, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm out there on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm out there on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's one before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio. The d