GDP, Markets, And Frontier Airlines (Podcast)

it simple that I can understand stuff. Elena, she left Diva, is one of them. She's the senior US economist for Bloomberg News, and Elana lots to parts over. I know you guys at Bloomberg Economics have been super busy. Uh this week. Let's talk about this morning's g d P print. UH much lower than expected, a negative number. What do you take away from it? So? I think in terms of recession and not I think maybe not yet, but that clearly significantly raises risks for recess to happen this year.

And the reason is not just you know, the two consecutive negative readings, but if you look beneath the surface, you will see that, for example, final sales to domestic purchases that GDP that excludes a volatile categories such as trade and inventories that fail for the first time since the COVID recession. So that is telling you that underlying demand is weakening significantly. Another thing that I would like to highlight is real services. You know, we we were

talking about people going on vacations. We were just discussing, we were planning some vacations too. That was supposed to be strong in June. But if you look at the data and you calculate, uh, the implied growth rate in June from the data we have, that will show you services spending is slowing into the end of the second quarter. I haven't seen my visable from July from my Hawaii trip, but the data telling you that things are slowing down quotes the end of the quarter, which creates risks for

the third quarter. So it was an ugly headline. Sounds like the details under the surface where messy. Two When it comes to GDP, I do want to talk about the FED a little bit and where exactly they are on the curve because it caught my eye yesterday. I mean, everyone has an opinion about the FED. But we heard from Scott Minor and Order Guggenheim, So his fear is that, you know, perhaps the Central Bank opened the door a little bit too wide to the possibility of cooling down

in terms of their rate hikes. Then you heard from double and Jeff Gunlock, for example, saying that the FED is no longer behind the curve. I would love to

hear where you fall on that debate. So I think the FED will try to do as much as they can at this point, and you know, they are going to find reasons to keep saying that the economy remains strong, you know, as long as the labor market continues to deliver, right, I think that they will have to step back at some point, you know, if if you know, if we

see the data start crippling. Look at jobless claims data for example, So we're like halfway through from the trophy and jobless claims in March to uh the level that is associated with the start of a recession. So we already halfway through in terms of the climb in jobless claims.

But I think what will be interesting to see next week we're gonna get another Pail's report is where the deceleration in job creation is happening which sectors, like, is it just concentrated in housing and certain you know, goods related sectors, or is it a broader slowing in the labor So are you concerned about the labor market because that's certainly one of the pillars that the argument and the people that make the argument or we're not in

a recession because the labor market is so strong. The data are so contradicting, and uh, you know, on the one hand, you see diffusion index for example, that shows breasts of job creation that was really strong in the previous report in June, But what will July data they're gonna tell us. On the other hand, I already mentioned jobless claims are creeping higher, and we can see some slow down in wage growth as well. Alright, so keep

an eye on the labor market. Let's talk about inflation though, because it's interesting to me that if you look at, you know, some of the measures of inflation expectations, whether that's break evens in the bond market, if you look at some of these surveys, it seems that expectations at least have peaked. But when it comes to inflation itself on do you think we could actually maybe start to crest there. Well, it depends core versus headline, so uh,

and that will really depend on geo political developments I think. So, you know, core has peaked, but there are some sticky categories in the core, such a shelter, that will continue to increase because it's just such a legging indicator. So in terms of the headline, and it's important because you know, the FED recently mentioned that they are looking at the headline numbers. Depends on energy prices, and you know, I am really scared to make any predictions on let's go

to that front. The daily national average gasoline prices, which is the first ticker I bring up every morning, it continues to tick over four dollars and twenty seven cents per gallon UM. So it looks like at least at the gas pump, which is a piece of inflation that everybody feels except Tom Keane who doesn't have a car. Everybody feels. And that's coming down pretty steadily, which will be reflected in sentiment measures, I think, and perhaps you know,

people will spend a little bit more in real terms. Uh. In the beginning of the third quarter. But I'm just worried this is a little bit more broad based and if you know, Europe goes into an energy crisis this full, this will not leave everybody else like just isolated. That's what my worry is. All right, there is a lot for you economists to keep busy at Bloomberg Economics. Helena Latti about senior US economists for Bloomberg joining us here

in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. So much better when people come in studio now, it's so nice see all these smiling faces. Kind lots of cross currents in these markets here and again we Sho could just see it in the trading, big big moves up yesterday and his Greg was just reporting giving some of that back today. It kind of reflects some of the uncertainty as the market tries at discount all these data points from the Fed yesterday to earnings, to the data eco data we're

getting today in terms of GDP. Let's check them with the professional. Does this for a living? Rick pitt Karen, c io of Pitt Karen joins us. Rick, what's your takeaway from you know, the earnings from the Fed yesterday, from the g D pre print. How is your outlook changed, if at all? Well, Hot, Paul, how are you? And nice to be here today. It's an incredibly dynamic time for the markets, and that was underscored by Pale statements yesterday.

You know, since November, they've placed in flight inflation fighting, uh and at an inflation fighting at the expense of all other economic issues at the forefront of their rhetoric and their actions. And yesterday he began to open the door in the second half of the speech to a possible pause, a possible pivot. The markets reacted super positively

as we saw. I think our view is that it's still a time for more caution than aggression because, uh, there's a lot of dynamics, as you mentioned, going through this market, and I don't think we have all the answers yet. I think things are still subject to change, and I'm not sure if we're all the way through the tough times, even as strong as yesterday was. And Rick, let's talk about that more caution than aggression. How does that filter down into how you structure a portfolio? Where

do you see opportunity? Where are you avoiding? Well, I'm lucky I've worked with high net worth individuals and high net worth families for my whole career. They tend to have a longer term view. They're all operating in the land of taxes. Uh, so tax drag is important. So you know, a pit care and portfolio will be a more diverse portfolio that will be in a more strategic than tactical in the way that it's laid out, and it will rely on a series of managers underneath that.

And we see those managers pivoting right now to a little bit different kind of a time. You know, two years ago, long duration assets of stocks that were growing revenue regardless of earnings. Uh, we're really highly valued. I think in a land where liquidity is tighter, where the FED will be tighter rather than looser, you have to

go to a different kind of a playbook. And and we've seen some different kinds of asset classes that weren't working in two thousands, sixteen, seventeen eighteen working very well right now, whether that's small value and equity, land commodities, certain kinds of hedge funds. So we're certainly emphasizing those in our portfolios. Rick, we're kind of I would say, kind of right in the middle of this earning season. A lot of big tech numbers coming out this week,

while the Apple and Amazon after the close. Any takeaways so far for you during kind of what you've seen, what you've heard from managements. We were struck going into this session, this earning season because we had an eight point nine percent forecasted year over year earnings growth, and you know, with the employment situation, we have very strong employment market and very strong earnings growth. It's hard to contemplate a really tough recession when you have those two

cornerstones on the positive side. So the conventional wisdom was, well, at eight point nine, can't hold it has We're going to go into recession area environment and that number is going to get creamed. And I think that number will come in based on the environment we have. But I think this earning season, uh probably has been better than

the whispers in terms of forward guidance. The Honeywell number this morning, he said, you know, regardless of the slowing and the broader economy, our business lines have shown dynamic growth in the first six months and they're going to continue to show that growth throughout the rest of the year. That wasn't what the Whisper had in mind in late June they thought that forward guidance would be a little

bit worse. I think that's been another reason we've had, you know, a stronger bounce back July in the speculative sectors. And that bounced back though that we've seen in the speculative sectors as you mentioned, I mean, or the past month, it's actually been a very robust rally. Uh How I guess what's your conviction there? Because I mean you look at volume, you look at volatility just falling off a cliff. Usually that means pretty low conviction. Wondering if that's the

case on your end as well. Well. Our technical research doesn't really show that even though it's an impressive rally on price, particularly in the n azdec, the internals are great. They aren't just screaming, you know, like they did in say April of two thousand and nine. You know, this is a big time by here. There's a ton of

internal momentum. It's a little more tepid than that. I would just tell investors, you know, we feel I think a little bit in our personal lives, like COVID is over, Like we can go to the restaurant we can get on the airplane, we can we can travel, we can do those things. But from a macro economic perspective, the scale of the of of the various impacts that COVID had on our economy, whether it was that massive liquidity impulse in two thousand and twenty that caused a great rally,

now we're gonna pull that back. You know, I would be cautious to uh, to flash the all green light here. I think patients ain't patients is always a good thing, uh in investment world, And even in light of the last three weeks, which has thankfully been strong for markets', I'd still, you know, tighten my seat belt and and and keep an eye out for the changing data because I think it's going to continue to change. All right, Rick,

good stuff there. We appreciate getting your thoughts, Rick pit Karen, He's a c I O at Pitcairn, been managing money for a long time. Getting his perspective here. All right, here's aligned from a recent research note. From our next guest, quote, pete fed hawkishness has passed. FED is preparing for a slower pace of tightening without a specific guidance. Equities are a go end quote. That line, and that content comes from Ben EM's, Managing director of Global macro Strategy at

Medley Global Advisors. Ben I think the market yesterday kind of agreed with you give us your thoughts about what we heard from our Federal Reserve yesterday. Hey, Paul, thanks for having me again. Um. Yeah, So he was clear that they are now full mode data dependent, and therefore

there's no guidance at least not until September. After that maybe it will return, but it does look like that what they want to do is get out of the Shenanigans of saying what we're going to do fifty or seventy five and then it has to become a hundred if a data point is more than expected and then guiding that back, and I think that will cost too

much uncertainty in the markets and in the economy. So going back to data dependent leads to what we went through in sixteen on the Jennet Yellen right, and getting actually a multi policy that doesn't surprise you because of this data dependent and therefore it's not hawkish either. And that's I think the interpretation the market is taking, especially the bond market, today's stock market is as Katie reported like it always is to day after cells off on

after fat day. But I do think the self is limited. But that message in mind, we have a data dependent fat that isn't as hawkish at this point. Isn't as hawkish at this point. I mean, we've seen a lot of conflicting notes as to whether the Fed truly did pivot. But Ben, in your view, if equities are a go, I'm curious what you make of this bond market move because can equities and treasuries be ago at the same time or does it? Is it too black and white?

There's some black and white in that, because I will agree with you that you know, if you think of the very short end of the Huker, so something of say six month debails out to two year treasury notes, they should be much more closer to the trajectory of the fat funds rate in the future. And the reason why is that Pow very clearly yesterday guided on on twice that they're looking at the two and mediant dots

as they're objective to reach with the funds rate. So I do think there's some level of mispricing happening there on the on the equity side, on the other hand, you know, the more hawkish the fact may still sound, even though day depend is not hawkish. You know, long end yields are somewhat now contained, right, there's not much of a surprise from the fats with a sudden hounter based when hikes, say, for example, so the turn premium

is decrining. I think that's will support I think in the long term stocks on the under the assumption that you do get a fund raiate that's high enough to bring inflation down. So I kind of come down to that, the short of the yuker looks to start to be somewhat miss priced. The long end of the curve is more about well, if you're reaching three and a half to send funds raids, maybe it is sufficient to bring

inflation down. Why you don't see much traction and higher unser So Ben, there's you know, for strategists like yourselves and economist there's no shortage of data points here to try to get a handle where this market might be headed. Uh. Today we had GDP print for the second quarter came in a negative zero point nine percent. To get sensus was for positive zero point four percent. So that's two quarters in a row of a negative GDP print. What do you take away from that? More important, what do

you think fetch JPL takes away from that? Yeah, and you could start again with that same kind of headlines speak. Hargus is like technically a recession, right, because you know that's what people say. So the inventory data is all over the map, right, and that was highlighted by the b A that the private investment in inventory is really

declining and the PC is slowing. So I do take away from that it's an economy really slowing, but it's still an economy that is on an annualized basis above potential. And that's what Powell also said yesterday, right, he pushed back on the recession one because we don't have rising fast rising uneppoyment or any uneppoyment, but we also have

an economy above potential. But even though this number is negative and the previous number was negative and technically says that it's the recession, the potential analysis I think is important. Come in here. Now. If we do start to slow to potential or lower, then then we we were like the r in the recession. So I think that's how the market is somewhat taking and find the agree market, you know, a limit to in its in its reaction

to this negative number. But I want to go back to something that you said that data dependent in terms of the FED is not hawkish, And just to play Devil's advocate a little bit, I mean, isn't it entirely unknowable if it does depend on the data which who knows what it will come in? When we think about PC coming up for example, Yeah, for sure, and you know, and and back again the sixteen periods. I was at that time portfolio manager. I was debating that same idea.

I was like, wait a minute, this data dependent actually makes it more volatile, right, we don't know what this data is going to be and how to react. Shouldn't be more uncertain. But the market takes to the opposite, right. It says basically that if you're going to be hawkish, you're going to guide us right to be hawkish, to say we really think we should hike by another fifty seventy five base points. That that brings like we had from the period May through July just now and again.

I think that they wanted to get away from that. Not only that they probably recognize the economy softening it's just and statement, but also that they recognize it causes too much uncertainty because they had to scale up through the walls of journey, even leaking that they had to go for seventy five set of fifty. I think they wanted to get out of that sort of communication, and therefore I think it's not hawkish. Now are they hawkish?

Every would agree that if you're going to move further bit the festival's rate above mutual, that's restrictive multip policy, as they call us, That is actually hawkish. I think for the ball markets more taking like you're not going to surprise us anymore, which a sudden major hike unless the data truly confirms it. And therefore your language currently is not considered as hawkish. So you know, it's interesting, Ben.

One of the arguments that I hear from the camp of folks saying that we're not in a recession or it's not going to be that bad is that the labor market is still strong. That's something you pointed out to. But we had initial drobles. Claims today came in a little bit higher than expected. The revision was also higher.

Is there some initial signs that the job market not be as stronger, maybe weakening, Yeah, I would say it more like loosening up in the labor market, which I think was with Powers referring to yesterday too and noticed right, the claims are the best indicative of the labor market. You know. That's the same as you follow the Sam rule for Claudia Sam. It's it's exactually a very linked to that. Once that that average starts to move up higher, it does indicate at least a softening or losing of

labor market. I think in this case that is loosening because of so many people so out of the labor force. And now maybe on the retail level there some layoffs happening and some other things going on. Was striking though too that Powe mentioned the claims data specifically. But then that's kind of make much of it. We actually think it may not be real. So that's an interesting statement, right, because it is sticking up right as you say. So

it's the note, all right, Ben, great stuff. Always appreciate getting your perspective here. Again, a lot of data points to part through here. Ben Emmett helps us do that. He's a managing director of Globe a macro strategy at Medley Global Advisors, Busy M and A times in the airline business. Jet Blue Airways today's acquiring deep discounter Spirit Airlines for at least three point eight billion dollars in cash, clinching a deal less than a day after Spirit called

off a planned murder with Frontier Group Holdings. To get the latest on that deal, we're very happy to welcome Barry Biffle, CEO and President of Frontier Airlines. Barry, thanks so much for joining. I know it's been a crazy, crazy time for you and your company. Give us your perspective here on the news that Jet Blue appears to have won the day for Spirit. Hey, looks, thanks for

having us on. And um, look, we're disappointed in the fact we weren't able to say consumers a lot of money by merging the two low cost carriers, but look, it's still a great day for Frontier. They have paved the way for Frontier to be the low cost carrier of the United States. And and I think is one of the analysts pointed out, we we just got handed the key, the keys to the kingdom of low costs. So so it's it's still a windfall for our shareholders.

I think our employees are really gonna win because we've got the growth. But if you're a spirit consumer, you're you're you're facing increase in costs. So that's a challenge from But I invite them to come to fly Frontier dot com. We'll have low affairs for him. So I am curious, Barry, I mean, where does Frontier go from here? Like you said, you've got the growth, are you looking at any other mergers, any other airlines? Now, look, we're

we're we're doubling down on what we're doing. I think, you know, while all this distraction was going on, I think what's what's interesting if you if you look, is we were able to increase revenues to queue BYT versus the same period in twenty nineteen had the highest RASM growth in our history, highest I think record for for the U S industry. And so we're we're we're all systems go. We're headed to be sub six cents, which is kind of a near o our kind of pre

pandemic level from a cost perspective. So we're really excited about turning the profitability this quarter and um we expect the margins to continue to improve through the year end so we think it's great for organic growth, for frontier and and now that we're kind of kind of left to our own devices to have to have the whole space of the United States is the low cost carrier.

Things are looking pretty up from an organic perspective. Tell us marriage, remind us kind of for those of us that have not been following the deal, what was your rationale for looking to get together with Spirit? So our rationale was, you take two ultralow cost carriers, you combine them, you provide a true ultralow cost alternative to the Big four and high cost carriers across the United States, and we would actually lower affairs for more people in more places.

But in the end, um, you know, our board was a very discipline and unwilling to overbid and overpay because we've gotta look out for our own shareholders and our own employees. And so if if Jeff Blue wants it that bad, that's fine. But sadly, I think some of the Spirit consumers, you know, millions of them, are going to be faced with a increase in the middle of some some great inflation. This is actually a heck of a heck of a bill that people are gonna have

to pay so Um, So that's disappointing. But for us and and and our stakeholders are shareholders and our employees, we're really excited today. So I mean we have to talk about antitrust concerns because I mean the Jet Blue Spirit tie up a lot of speculation about what regulars

might say about that. I'm curious about what it would have looked like on your end had this deal with Spirit gone through, what pressure you might have faced, and what you anticipated now potentially the Jet Blue and Spirit uh tie up coming under Well, look, I think you know, the Department of Justice is is a is an organization that would have I'm sure done its job and it would have you know, validated what we were saying, which

is we were gonna lower prices for consumers. Um. I think this is a more challenging path that they've chosen, right, I mean, they're gonna raise prices for consumers and that has obviously a lot more risk of getting through the o J. But you know, I'm not gonna speculate whether they get it done. In the end. Um, Spirit shareholders were had access to the information and they made a decision that even with higher risk, it was a risk they were willing to take. So, um, we wish them luck.

All right, Barry, let's st back. Take take a look at the industry as a whole. Here, Um, you know it's been in the industry had a very difficult time dealing with a surgeon demand. Uh there's a shortage of pilots, which I don't understand. And I put a lot of blame on the airlines. There's a shortage of backhounds. Again, I put it on the airlines. Tell me why I'm wrong. Why can't the industry Your job is to forecast demand.

How did the industry so mismatched the demand and the supply? Well, I think, look, you said you didn't know a lot about it. I think there's I don't know that I would blame the industry, but I do because I just got I've had some very bad experiences this summer. So I am firmly blaming the industry. But tell me why I'm wrong there. Well, the industry has been warning about this for years and we are unique in in in the world requiring fifteen hours, which is an arbitrary, uh

number of minimum hours. I mean, you're you're in a few hundred hours in most countries in the world to become a pilot. So that arbitrary thing, and rather than focusing on safety and the training quality and so forth, UM is actually put a barrier to entry to people being able to afford to get through it. And so

that has resulted in a in a dried up supply. So, you know, argument to make barry because we have the safest guys in the world, and we take that for granted, I would argue, or some would argue that why are you putting all the onus on the individuals to get trained. Why don't the airlines themselves train their pilots so they have a ready pool of pilots. Well it's funny. Well it's funny you mentioned that. So so the shortage is what it is. And so yesterday we announced a cadet program.

So if you're interested in leaving Bloomberg Radio and becoming a pilot UM with zero hours, you can you can join with us in in two years you could be flying an airplane for us. And you know, we've we've arranged financing and it's as little as eighty thousand dollars to become a pilot and you'll easily make that back with the wages that are out there. So we're doing a lot to to coach them through it and get them through the process and get them through this cadet program.

And the response in the last twenty four hours has just been huge. So so we're excited. But the truth is is what what actually helps us even more is that we are one of the highest growth airlines in the world. And so one of the biggest pay raises you get as a pilot is moving from the right seat to the left seat and so to be captain. And so because of our growth, you upgrade the captain

within four years, whereas you might be sitting. You might be sitting you know, you know, it's in sitting reserve in JFK for Jeff Blue, Whereas whereas you could already be a captain with us potentially, so so they see that so you can make more money and you have better options for more basis. We have bases all over the United States and really desirable places. So that's why we actually have a surplus of pilot. To say very

we only have thirty seconds left. But before we let you go, I have to ask should the Spirit Jet Blue deal fall through? I mean, would you try to tie up with Spirit again. So I'm not gonna speculate, but look, we're always looking for ways to save more consumers, Mike, so so I'm not gonna close the door in it. But let's let's let them, uh, you know, pursue their path and we'll see how it goes. All right, Barry, I really appreciate you taking a time to come on.

I know it's been busy times for you and the company. Barry Billfe was a ceto on president of Frontier Airlines.

Earlier today, Kat we're talking with ivery Jersey Bluemer markets rate strategist, and he was talking about just kind of the markets, what's going on and a real liquidity problem and it really rears its head, um, you know, when you get some volatility in the market, and we've had so much data come out and recently there's been a lot of volatility here, Um, and he kind of sites that's just the big investment banks are not stepping up as much as I used to for variety of reasons,

some of them regulatory. So our next guest here, I'm sure has some thoughts in that. Chris kun Cannon, CEO and president of Market Access that is a publicly traded company. M k t X is what you put into your Bloomberg terminal. It's got a ten billion dollar market cap. Chris, thanks so much for joining us here in the fixed income markets. Give us a sense of kind of where we are in terms of liquidity lack of liquidity, Is it a problem? If so, what are some of the

solutions potentially well? First, thanks Paul and thanks Katie for having me. It's great to be on the show. And uh, absolutely right. There are some liquidity challenges in our market.

UM definitely the result of the volatility that we're seeing, and we've been seeing some volatility in the market throughout the course of two and we would expect that volatility to continue, particularly given UM the moves that the SAID and and other central banks are are taking to really ward off the inflation that we're seeing in the market.

So I would expect volatility UM to UM continue in that market, and that does create challenging liquidity UM liquidity challenges for our clients, but particularly around the large investment thanks, they have to be very careful about their inventory and what they take on onto their balance sheet, particularly given many of the regulations that they're subject to christ and Cannon. First, let me say it is thrilling to talk to you

no new for a long time. Second, I want to dig into the numbers of the market access business because I'm looking at your latest Sarnings report grown market share to of the composite corporate bond market. But when I think about electronic trading platforms, specifically for corporate bonds, it almost feels like a duopoly. You have market access, You've trade Web. It's almost like an uber lift sort of situation.

And I'm curious whether right now you know this increase in market share that you're seeing is that is that the pie growing larger? Are you chipping away at some of your competitors market share? Well, it's great to talk to you as well, Katie, and um. Really what we're seeing is the overall market. When you look at the global bond market, you're talking about a hundred and thirty

trillion dollar market. It's one of the largest asset classes on the planet, and it is still in early innings in developing true electronic solutions, and clearly in the US close to that market is still manual that means over the phone via chat. So the market opportunity that we

have at market access is is truly sizeable. UM. Where as you mentioned of the US corporate bond market, that means close to one in every five bond trades in the US take place on market access, but that's still at a very low rate given the overall electronic um the electronic adoption UH in the US bond market and more importantly globally, we offer electronic trading and in emerging market bonds and euro bonds and US treasuries, and and my favorite in the municipal bond market, which is still

far from adopting electronic trading. It's very early days. And in the US municipal bond market. I'm sorry you're saying the municipal bond market is your favorite. It actually is. It has it just has such great attributes. For obviously, the tax benefits of the municipal bond market continue to thrive. And UM, just this recent quarter we traded over twenty

three billion in muni bonds on our trading platform. So we are delivering some benefits in that market and some elect um sorely needed electronic trading in the municipal bond market. All right, Well, Bloomberg's Joe Meazac would be thrilled to hear that, But I do want to get your thoughts on portfolio trading. Of course, I cover E t F specifically fixed income et f s an important component there,

and portfolio trading. It was sort of presented as the next big boom on Wall Street in terms of you know, when it comes to bond trading, it feels like it's stalled out a little bit. I mean, I'm looking at some numbers from February where you saw it come down in terms of total you US corporate bond volume. Curious what insight you can provide there. Well, the we tracked the portfolio bond trading, portfolio trading in our bond market, particularly in the US, where we saw it grow UM

really most rapidly, probably in one UM. I would call portfolio trading in the bond market as a very expensive trade. You're obviously trading a full basket UH typically trading with one or two dealers, and UM, the spread of that trade is quite expensive, UM, but it provides some useful UM ways of deploying capital and and UM moving portfolio

at a much rapid pace. We actually had record trading portfolio in our in our last quarter volume of twenty two billion in portfolio trades on our platform, So we we do provide an electronic solution in portfolio trading as well. But as I mentioned, it's it's only about between five and six percent of the overall mark, and we've really

seen it stabilize around that rate. It's very hard to do portfolio trading in a volatile market, and as we talked about the you know, the the liquidity challenges makes portfolio trading that much harder in this type of market. And Chris, we only have about thirty seconds left. But I mean, if I look at some of these numbers again from February, it seems like the peak in terms

of portfolio trading came in November. Like you said, I mean, perhaps it doesn't make as much sense involvedal markets, but how how big do you think it could grow again? If you look at the total share of corporate bond volume. I you know, we saw portfolio trading hit its peak in the stock market back in the in the late nineties actually, and it it really hit a peak and then really ebbed down. Um, so I wouldn't expect it to grow anywhere over Chris, really good stuff. I really

appreciate getting your time. Chris con Cannon, CEO and president of Market Access, talking about the automation of trading, particularly in the fixed income space, a growing trend for sure. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews with Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller three. On Fall Sweeney, I'm on Twitter

at pt Sweeney before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio.