Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside my co host Matt Miller.
Every business day we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along with essential market moven news.
Find the Bloomberg Markets podcast called Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm gonna get right to it. Nicholas Bonsak Joints and he's the CEO and president of Strateigas Securities. Now in your bio page, Nick, it says fifty two Vanderbilt Avenue. Is that where your offices are?
That's where we are.
Is that the new building? No, No, that's not the new build.
That's one.
That's one Vanderbilt. Okay. I was just wondering if anybody's been in there.
Six Its one block and much fancier away.
It looks amazing, but it is is it filled? You know?
I don't think the capacity is a hunt Yeah.
Anyway, Matt, this is one Vanderbilt is righted by Grand Central, massive new office tower, probably one of the newest, biggest ones in the city's I've walked by it. Yeah, So I was just wondering AnyWho, All right, Nick, what are we doing here with this market? I just put up the SPX and kind of looked at on a trailing twelve month spasis rolling down three point two percent. What's the big thing here? I don't get it.
You're just looking at the last twelve months, right, Yeah, because if you just look at twenty twenty two, it was a lot lot Oh.
I know that I live through that, But if you just got to put in perspective, it's like, eh, we've kind of come back a little bit off those lows here from October November pretty impressively. What do you guys telling your clients these days?
Yeah, I think when we look at the landscape, it seems like these building blocks for a recession and for a contracting economy are almost impossible to avoid. And so when you think back over the length of time these bear markets that are around global de leveragings, they're going to post very very strong counter trend rallies, and it's just our sense that we're in one of those right now.
And moreover, the market's gotten very very narrow from the top, so it's Fang and friends that are sort of leading us here.
So what's the I mean, what drives us to a recession ultimately? Is it credit crunch? Is it dropping capex? I mean, because we have three and a half percent on employment still and yeah, you know we see companies beating expectations.
Uh did you see earnings?
I mean, are are companies putting out decent EPs growth or.
Actually they're declining, but they're beating expectations. So it's a revenue the story margin downstory.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think when you look at the margin contraction and went to your question where the market goes, it's earnings and interest rates on one side, and liquidity and labor on the other side.
And liquidity and labor are winning.
You know, I would I would make the point as as as Paul, did you know with respect to the earnings the earnings results, they're okay, but you know, so far those expectations have continued to come way in and your earnings are expected to be flat?
Yere on here, all right, talk to us about Matt likes this flat would be great?
Right?
Flat Wouldlast week we were talking to Phil Orlando last week and things S and P earnings this year going to be one hundred and ninety dollars compared to like twenty last year.
Yes, that's not good. Now we need to up year.
It's last year. It's the like the immaculate deleveraging exactly.
All right, Matt likes this ETF business. You've got to strategius macro thematic opportunities. ETF symbol is sa MT. What are you guys doing in that ETF.
Yeah, So when you look at thematic investing, and particularly thematic ETFs, they are almost always monoligned. They come out with one big idea which requires the investor to be right on the time and right on the theme. And the nature of our work is thematic and moreover, it's
this idea of thematic rotation. So we want to be able to have the flexibility to see the themes that are gathering momentum in the marketplace and rotate into them and have some exposure to them for a period of time and then move along.
As the business cycle does.
And so this thematic ETF really will have exposures three or four or five themes at a time and then move on as they evolve.
So what kind of themes are we talking about?
So right now, our biases are a little bit more defensive, so we actually have recession protection is an important theme. Cash flow risk detocrats is another important theme. And then a third, which is a little off pieced from the business cycles specifically, is deglobalization.
Is de globalization really a thing? I grew up when we're all about globalization. I mean, if you didn't do a stint in Tokyo and you didn't do a stint in London, you had no career on Wall Street?
Correct, I mean, is that a thing?
So globals? I mean, really, how much can you really deglobalize? I mean, Apple is still going to be making a ton of stuff in China.
Yeah, I have I had the same view, perhaps you did, or at least as is suggested by the nature of your question, before Russia invaded Ukraine and so before that, I thought deglobalization was.
Some sort of an academic talking point.
But now you have supply chain, now you have sort of reshoring, Now you have sort of this BiPOL this polarization where you've got, you know, new groups of countries that are banding together, maybe not outwardly to be against the United States, but ostensibly could be against the United States. And so companies and countries are going to have to pull together their resources in a very different way than we did, you know for the eighty year after the Second World War.
It'll be interesting because uh, you know, it's friend shoring more than on shoring, right, because we're not bringing that's a production back to just the US. We're also putting it in Mexico and Canada, and it seems like that's going to work. You have another ETF, right, the strateigous Global Policy Opportunities ETF.
What's that about, same idea with thematic rotation, but far less dependence, almost no dependence on the business cycle and all dependence on the political cycle.
So as the winds have change blowing Washington and we've.
Got an all democratic uh you know, Congress and White House, or the opposite measure and Republican, we will move the themes around.
To be offensive and defensive.
Companies vote with their money for better or for worse, and we view that and I believe we've been able to shown dead over time that helps their earnings grow.
So what what made you get into this?
I mean, before you started Strategius, you were at some of the most important businesses on the street Morgan Stanley is SI legendary stuff. Right, then you go in with Jason to start Fritiguis what got you into the ETF side of things?
Well, Macro, which is our business, is pretty low barrier to entry. If you've got enough of you go in an email system, you can be in the business. So we decided we would try to find the investable conclusion with every research note we put out, and that ultimately became stock baskets. And then when you look at those stock baskets over time, they basically fall into three time categories. You've got really short dated stuff that nobody can invest in,
you're so close to it it's impossible. But then you've got intermediate term stuff and long term stuff, and those things are very interesting for portfolio construction. So we got into the stock basket business. That became themes and then clients started asking, hey, this would be really great if we could put it into a managed account, and then you evolve into ETFs.
So what are the assets and management for your ETFs? Generally, so, we.
Have just over one hundred million in the complex we lost we launched them late last year, and we managed about eight hundred million in our asset manager.
And you guys are staying with thematic investing? Is that kind of where you guys think you add vague?
That's where we're comfortable.
There's a lot of people who do a lot of things, and we think we're comfortable with thematic.
And I mean you're macro masters, right, That's why people go to strtigis what do you think about You've already given us your view on recession.
How does the FED.
React to that? They're likely going to raise next week? I think that's a consensus overwhelmingly. Do they raise again after that? Are they going to cut in twenty twenty three? These are the questions we ask everyone, So what's your take?
Listen. We do think they're going to go again.
We think the labor market gives them more than sufficient cover to do so. Our view is that the Powell and the FED are very worried about what happened in the nineteen seventies and they want to make sure that they arrest inflation expectations back to an acceptable level. They'll probably pause thereafter. My suspicion is that they've done a lot of damage to the economy that we haven't even caught up with. Yet we'll probably cutting next year at some point. But remember, a cut is not the same
optimism that pivot, you know, provided us. I mean a cut is because something is broken, and that would be when the recession comes hits us.
Yeah, I just can't you know, I hear the recession call. I just with unemployment at three and a half percent.
Yeah, I mean, listen, labor and liquidity, right, So unemployment is not giving you the signposts for a recession.
It's also difficult for US equity knuckleheads to understand long invariable lags. We just don't get that. I don't understand what happens after next week.
I never have.
I mean, most investors say, hey, the market's up, so what's wrong?
Cokette? A good quarter? Isn't that all I need to know?
Yeah, but that's why we need people like this, because they actually look ahead, and we're not very good at.
How concerned are you about the consumer out there? Because I mean, admittedly, Matt and I don't we're kind of stuck here in the metro New York area. We don't get to see the real world. I don't think the consumer's doing out there.
They are increasingly using credit as well, so transfer payments, stop jobs are okay.
Savings dobbies are blowing through.
Their savings and don't listen, remember the money illusion when this is all over. Inflation makes things look okay or look better, and they're not. They're deteriorating on the inside.
I tell you I've had enough of this inflation thing. I mean, I'm you know, well, I think you know what.
We have had inflation paired with much higher bank balances than we're used to because we all got free cash passed out to us. And now that you know, we're done saving money, so we're working off the bank balances. Plus we're putting much more on credit cards. It's just going to hit us. We're in a great mood and everything looks great now yeap, until it hits us, and then all of a sudden, next time we'll bring better news.
All right, Nicholas, thanks so much for joining us. Nicholas Bonsaks, CEO and President of Strateigist Securities joining us live here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brooker Studio, so we appreciate it. Making the walk up from Midtown a couple of blocks away.
There you're listening to the team Ken's Are Live program Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the Hard Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcast.
We're going to talk crypto, and my old buddy Matt Siegel is here in the studio.
Used to be he used to work here at Bloomberg.
Then he went to get a real job on Wall Street, and now he's over at van k where he runs there Crypto Research MATC. Great to have you back in the studio with us. Go ahead and put that microphone right there in front of your face. And before we get to the price action and what you think about regulation and everything. I noticed that two new groups have joined the I guess the competition to try and become the executors of the bankrupt Celsius business.
One of them is.
Errington Capital and a whole group of bidders under the name Fahrenheit I guess, And another one is Gemini. And you, guys, and you already work closely with the Winklev crypto business. Why do you want to get into that into that race? Why do you think it would be helpful to help to unwind Celsius?
Well, the bigger picture here, Matt, is that every crypto lender has gone bankrupt and there are multiple bankruptcy cases right now to try to sort out these assets and maximize the return for customers and token holders.
So we just saw last week that.
The bankruptcy judge in the Voyager case allowed that sale to Binance to proceed. So all the leverage has been brought out of this ecosystem with the bankruptcy of all these lenders, and now it's for the bankruptcy courts to clean up the mess and see who can maximize the return for these unsecured creditors. So I can confirm, you know, the court documents yesterday revealed that two additional bidders have joined as qualified bidders to administer these assets and try
to maximize the return for token holders. Vanik has teamed with Gemini on one of those bids, and we think, you know, the details will be clear tomorrow at the auction, but look forward to putting forward the case that we have the best way to administer these assets in a regulatory compliant way to maximize the return for the customers.
Is the lending business Is the crypto lending business dead? Just here in the US or is it worldwide? For example, Nexso I talked to Anthony Trenschev quite a bit, and right now I think he might be in Dubai because he's not welcome in his country where there are lawsuits pending. But that business still exists, right Is it one of the last Is it going to die out as well? Is there no good business case for crypto lending.
The business? The crypto lending business is dead in the US for retail customers, so Nexo is now out of that business. Everyone is out of that business. It's available for institutional counter but there are few large balance sheets participating in the space. And so one consequence of the FTX bankruptcy is that an increasing amount of cryptoactivity has moved on chain into self custody wallets and DeFi. That
is largely an x US phenomenon. So the short answer to your question is, yes, it's dead in the US. Has it moved overseas? And that's what we're seeing, you know, with so many of these announcements. It's on the tape today that Gemini is looking to set up an off short derivatives exchange Coinbase, talking about that last week. There's no other choice when the regulator here is presenting you know, impossible paths.
Why is the crypto lending space dead? And what does that say about the market overall or the regulators?
Well, it's the centralized lending space.
Why am I spending any attention on crypto space when I can't even finance it? They can't get it financed?
Well, you can in DeFi, but there you know, there needs to be larger balance sheets to step up and fill the void that the collapse of these centralized lenders has led to. And that you know, that's a fair criticism. This is a bear asset, so it's a little more difficult to set up a lend and borrow.
So, as Matt mentioned, talk to us about the regulatory aspect here, because just in your notes you say the Biden White House is trying to kill crypto? How are they doing it? And at one point like so, why would they want to do that? Don't we want to lead that business?
Well, there's definitely mixed messages from the White House, right, So on the one hand they like to say that there's no value behind this tech, right, that it's a ponzi. And on the other hand, the White House devoted more than ten pages in their recent Economic outlook to talking about crypto. So there's a bit of schizophrenia here as to how much power this technology has. And I think that's something that the policymakers are coming to terms with.
The Instincts of this White House are to micromanage and control and crypto is you know, takes different mechanisms to do that. We haven't sorted out what the rules are. Regulators are asking for things that the ecosystem participants can't provide. They're getting slapped with lawsuits and enforcement actions. Why not just geofence US customers and move offshore? And that's what's going to happen. And if you ask why it matters, it's because the D dollarization theme is something that's real.
You know multiple what is that theme? The D dollarization theme? Because I'm just going to speak for our audience.
It was on the View last week, Yeah, you know.
The View with like Woope Goldberg.
Yes, oh they're talking about it and then everyone's talking about it. So what I mean is that the tokenization story that you're talking about or or do you mean a move away from FIAT or just a move away from the green back a.
Move away from the green back right. So many of US trading partners partners are objecting to our debt and definite deficit position, and are objecting to our use of funds in Russia on US social programs whatever it may be. Well, I mean Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, China each did you know that even Japan is buying energy from Russia above.
The US set price cap?
Because have you ever been to Tokyo in August? It's kind of hard to live without affordable air conditioning. So the realities that you can't print energy, you can only print FIAT. That is coming into stark understanding by our trading partners who are selling treasuries and looking for neutral
third party assets. We saw today in the Ft Central Bank gold purchases were up one hundred and fifty percent last year to a record, So gold has played that role for millennia, right, and we think bitcoin has a role to play there as well.
So bitcoin moved up to over thirty thousand, has dropped a little bit. I'm guessing people taking profit here, But how come this asset? I mean, I guess you've already answered that question. I was going to say, why do people have faith even after the collapse of FTX and now binance is under scrutiny. But you know it's going to be difficult to deal if you can't trade it, right, Where are Americans going to go to buy and sell bitcoin?
Well, there still are a handful of exchanges operating in the.
US, Armstrong even coinbase may consider moving out of the US.
That's right. So just an increasing amount of this activity will take place overseas. It will take place in decentralized finance, peer to peer, and you know the US government's going to have to come to terms with that in some way.
That's fascinating stuff. We're going to get you back in here again.
You're no idea what's going I bought my first bitcoin at let's see you down on fourteenth Street in Alphabet City, Webster Hall at Webster Hall in the bar for six hundred dollars. But that's perod that was twenty twelve. That's peer to peer, all right, Matt.
Thanks so much for joining us here. Matt Siegel, he's had of digital assets research at ven K.
You're listening to the take Cat's Are Live program Blomberg Markets weekdays at ten Am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Our next guest. We got to get to this guy, Ed Price. He's a principled ergo non residents and your fellow at NYU. We usual, we used to think of as a reasonable guy, I mean, and we talked about markets and stuff like that. Then I started seeing on social media the dude was in Ukraine. I mean, ed, there's a war there, my friend. You turn around. You avoid those types of places.
Go.
What were you doing in Ukraine?
Tourism? Pool tourism, tourism, of course, yes, so just looking around Kieve, spending some money. No, in all seriousness, it was it was a personal trip. It was something that I thought I had to do. Having out Yeah, I mean, look, I've been on your show talking about Ukraine and it seems a little bit like hotter unless I actually go and see it for myself. So I met the Finance Minister Sahe Machenko, I met other officials, I met some others among the good guys, contingents.
So what are your takeaways because we haven't spoken to anybody who's been in the country.
Right, So there's two things going on. One you come out, it's obviously a war zone, right. You appear in this kind of Soviet era train station. There are soldiers saying goodbye to their wives, metal detectors, sambag's air raid shelters, the whole kaboodle. But on the other hand, Ukraine is making a very concerted effort to develop its economy in the manner of a potential EU member state. What does
that mean. Well, they're being very open. They're very open with me about the corruption problem, which is a legacy of the USSR. They're being very open about the fact that they're trying to trying to digitize things, and they're being very open in particular about the fact that they don't think they've got enough weapons. So it's kind of like, yeah,
it's like a big war. I certainly heard and saw the sites and sounds of war, but it's also an economy that's striving for function and striving for positive GDP changes.
So I think the main question from here is do they have enough support from allies and does that support hold right, because you're starting to see important political names break away from the I stand with Ukraine narrative.
Right, it's a good observation, enough support for what And I feel.
They're going to launch a counter offensive in spring, right, Yes, it is a spring, so it's coming up.
Yes, I think it's imminent. From what I hear. Personal opinion, I don't think they have been given enough to really land a serious blow on the Russians. I think that they can do some damage. The morale is high, their special forces are excellent. They also have this kind of weird open source method whereby you know, some dude with a drone will meet someone else in a bar who knows the artillery guy. You know you've heard about this. But my opinion is that they don't. They haven't been
given enough to really kick the Russians out. But of course if they do, you start getting into like gnari areas, like crimea.
All right, so I guess my question is are they not fascinated that you met with people in the finance department in the sense of aren't they just trying to survive every day? But it sounds like, yes, they're fighting a war on one hand, but they're also trying to operate, keep on with business as usual and try to do what's right for the economy, do what's right for the people and the vestments that need to be made there. So is that, in fact, it's a good observation.
They're basically running a fifty percent budget deficit and all of their fiscal capacity is going into fighting the war on the one hand, but also this kind of legacy social spending that's again something from the USSR as was, and the other fifty percent is coming in from international financing.
So they're very bullish, but they're also a little bit nervous that if that drives up, they're going to have to start making decisions that really look like extreme rationing or indeed less spending in the army, albeit the spending on the army's classified data. So I couldn't really get to the bottom of that. But they need financing, They need more financing.
Is there a point where you say, all right, we've got to think about what happens after this, assuming that Russia gets what it wants.
What would Russia getting what it wants be right?
I mean, a huge chunk of Ukraine beyond the chunk they already have.
Yeah, it's difficult. So I was trying to be friends with these guys, and when I floated that, I was like, so what do you think if maybe.
You know, is there a realistic view.
Yeah, it's difficult, I mean the very emotive. The first couple of times you asked the third layer. The idea is, well, actually, we can develop our economy regardless, and if we lose some of that old Soviet style industry in the East,
if we lose access to some gas basins. We've done the math and actually we can if we use, for example, one percent of our agricultural land and devote that to renewable energy, we can replace anything that Europe takes from Russia in a combination of that and gas from Ukraine. So once you scratch the surface, they really don't like it, and I can see why, right, I mean I wouldn't like it. But there is a viable Ukraine in the U and in NATO regardless.
So what is the timing on the EU and NATO and maybe just greater you know, movement towards the west for Ukraine. Where are we because it just seems like the war is just obviously taking front and center everything everybody's attention.
Yeah, look, the EU membership thing is a bit more difficult than NATO. I think NATO could probably just you know, decree that Ukraine was in with with greater ease, pretend. Possibly it kind of is pretending right now, right kind of is in NATO. But I mean the EU, I mean, look, it needs things like a stable border, it needs full transparency, it needs like commitment to whatever the equivalent of the Growth Instability Pact is, and by their owners mission, the
Ukrainians are not quite there yet. This is the entire discussion. So EU memberships are way away. I mean, my joke with the Finance Minister was that maybe the UK and Ukraine would join on the same day.
You know what, we go into a bar or restaurant during your time there, the average person on the street, how do they their lives in terms of you know, yeah, I mean, what's the feel, what's the vibe? Are we gonna fight to the end, We're not gonna give up anything, or we're getting tired or.
Hey, pull that pumped They are really pumped up. I had a few drinkies with some Ukrainians that have been at the front. It's it's taking its toll. Any war does. But these people are pumped up and they want to kick the Russians out.
In terms of what really happens, though, what I think is interesting that we've seen a new global paradigm, paradigm shake out of this. Right, So it seems like you're getting Russia, China and to some extent India, and the US is lonelier and lonelier, right. I mean, I guess we're still in NATO and it's a little bit better than it was when Trump was president, but who knows. You know, if President Biden stays in and or if Donald Trump stays out, you've got a totally new system
here in terms of the power. The panel agree with that, Well, you think that China still dig into democracy in Western.
China is what it is, Russia is what it is.
India still buys their stuff, China's buying any Saudi Arabian oil for the.
Yeah, I mean, I mean I would agree with Matt not just because he's so much physically stronger than me, just because I feel like that's the right take gotten things. Yeah, this is this is a new paradigm. But you know that the real fail I think was after the Second World War, we were like, hey, everybody, like markets work and just get involved in capitalism and it will make you rich. But like democracy is an option, and that's
that's a bit of a fail, right. The US conquered Germany, Japan, and the UK, but it was like the two like I've said this before, like the two big naughty countries, China and Russia. It was like, do whatever you want, right, So I think that's that's the challenge facing.
Were you attend were you attempting at Brooklyn Accent?
I was trying what you want?
Do whatever you want?
So I guess in Ukraine where you were, I mean what I guess the real question is for these people is you know, it sounds like they are not going to give up, that that's not in their discussion at the moment, and that never So then that kind of comes back to to the West and NATO and okay, well how much are we going to how long are we going to support them? And to what end?
You know?
So that's I guess where we're getting to it.
And by the way, Emmanuel Macron had this thing about trying to get China to help negotiate people.
Right, I don't know what that was about.
What where has this guy?
I don't know what that was about. Yeah, Macron also did the whole big long table thing with Putin if you remember, right, and that was a bit that was a bit of a wash out. Yeah. I can't get inside his head. I don't know what he's doing. I think maybe it's some sort of French diplomatic urge, you know, to possible moonshot. Yeah, I don't know. But but the going back to the Ukrainians, they are they are dead
serious about this. I'm in the maximalist camp. I think we give them everything they want, and that's that's one way of ending this thing quickly.
It's starting a new thing.
Well, but but I mean, like, I mean, dude, like, is Putin really going to push the button? I mean it's like Trump, right, We've got a bigger button. Like I just I think it's bluster. I don't think he's going to make it ask.
It seems to be on the table as fighter jets right. To me, that's the game changer. And it doesn't appear that the US or any of our Western allies are there yet. I just hope that we're training pilots today in anticipation of twelve months from now. If it's you need, you know, get an air arm that we've got. This guy's trained and we can just drop him and he's.
I imagine we're doing all sorts of things that give us options. Again on the aircraft. I mean, I don't know why we haven't given them like two or three to kind of make a point, right, That's what we did with the tanks, And so there's a difference between the sort of material that would definitely make a dent and the sort of material at a certain level that will show that we're still in it. Right. But look, I can see to both of you this thing is escalating.
It's like it looks like a stalemate equilibrium. But that's because both sides are slowly edging up to a line. And I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's very lowly likelihood, but I wouldn't rule out putin using some sort of tactical new because a pr scare tactic, right, like a mushroom cloud on tap. I don't know, But look, the Ukrainy is a dead series, all.
Right, ed Price, thanks for coming in, Thanks for making it back. Safely at Price principal at Ergo. He just spent some time in Ukraine, so we appreciate him coming to our Bloomberg and Arcti Broker studio and sharing some of the insight. There.
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Let's move over to the biotech space. This is a space that is fascinating for investors because boy, you can have some big, big hits and some big big misses as well, and that's why I think a lot of the hedge funds like doing work in the biotech space and we always love speaking to folks in that space. Lynn Kirkpatrick, she's the CEO of n Sis Biosciences. That's a NASDAQ traded stock. N Yeah, I'm sorry, e N
is a Nancy sc is the ticker Linn. Thanks so much for joining us here that I pronounced your bandies name correctly and sise you certainly did, Okay for having great tell us what you guys are doing over there at insis what's your focus.
We are a clinical stage company trying to improve really prescription drug safety. We're using our technology platforms to improve the safety in the okoid space. We have technology to reduce abuse and I believe unique to the industry. We also have overdose protection.
So hang on, if I understand correctly, that means you're trying to make an opioid that is less addictive and less deadly.
I wouldn't say less addictive. Opioids are addictive, but as you know, they've become liked by recreational drug users our products.
What we're trying to do is reduce that recreational abuse, but also have something that's safe for prescribers and individuals with pain and layered on top of reduction of individuals being able to manipulate and abuse our products, we also have overdose protection, so I think, for the first time ever a prescription opioid where if you take more of it, your body turns it off and doesn't allow an overdose.
So what's ther do you have competitors in this space? Because this opioid issue and crisis, I guess is the correct term in this country does not seem to be abating. So do you have some competitors in the marketplace, and if so, how does your science potentially differ from what's out there in the marketplace.
Yeah, obviously, I mean I think the entire pain industry has been looking for solutions for this crisis. Most companies had used what we call formulations, trying to release the drug slowly over time. What Insis has done is use chemistry. We've chemically modified the opioid so until it's swallowed and it's exposed to an enzyme that your body uses to digest your meat products, it doesn't release the opioid, and it's very hard to manipulate to make it release faster.
At Currently, there are no companies using technologies like ours, so the abuse to turrent formulations haven't worked. We believe our solution gives us something that's safer, and we've recently had clinical trials showing that recreational drug users don't really like our product and that it actually releases an opioid to affect pain as it should, so we feel it'll be effective, have less abuse, and have this safety of potentially reducing overdose.
How far are you from getting this product out to patients? I mean, what kind of trials do you need to still need to go through.
Yes, we have had a very busy year. We conducted four clinical trials last year. We're now poised and planning to speak to the agency to start our Phase three trials at the end of this year, and we hope to be able to submit our NDA in twenty twenty five, so it's still a couple of years away, but very close to the end.
Your stock has been all over the place. I know you did an IPO I guess back in twenty one at fifteen dollars a share. Then it seems to have gone all over the place. I'm looking at the stock chart. I'm not sure if it's correct, but it had you kind of way up there. Now down to three dollars a share. What's what's going on with your stock and what's the market calling?
How?
I wish I could answer. We've had very good results and in some days we've traded a massive amount of shares.
We seem to be.
A hit with the retail crowd, so it does go up and down. Even last week it was almost six dollars. We're now down to about three and a half. And I believe with the hope that we have. We do hope that our shareholders will stay with us and allow us to move things forward. But yes, our stock has had a wild ride over the last year.
It actually makes the market cap just about four and a half million. And I wonder why you don't just you know, get around by the company. I mean, why not take it private at that point.
We're looking at various opportunities. Obviously this last week where we were close to six dollars, we had hoped we'd start maintaining a little more upward pressure. We're looking at all opportunities at the moment.
So talk to us about just kind of the biotech space in general. Is it kind of thing post COVID, you know, so amazing how quickly the mRNA vaccines got to market, and you know, and the FDA kind of really sped things up. Is the FDA and approval process different today than it was three or four years ago.
Well, I think during COVID they did utilize emergency use. There was a lot of money put in to the market to get the vaccines. But what that did was also make it more difficult for regular biotech companies to the supply chain of animals and bials and everything else that were used up in the vaccines. We do have fast tracked status with our technology, so we potentially have the ability to move a little faster, all though we believe it may not be as fast as it was with vaccines.
Gotcha, Okay, Lynn, thank you so much for joining us, for taking the time. Lynn Kirkpatrick, CEO of NCISE Biosciences, The tech tickers E NSC.
You're listening to the tape cans are live program Bloomberg Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. Now.
I'm pretty excited about this next guest.
I have been following this company since it had a different name and made big inch twins. Now, Curtis Motorcycles makes electric bikes that are more like works of art than they are modes of transportation. I mean they are at Google It Google Google, Curtis. I'm looking at to s this motorcycle and you'll see something pretty insane. Matt Chambers joins us, the founder of the business and the CEO, Matt Thanks so much for your time talk to us
about where Curtis is in its journey right now. Because you make a product that is it's fair to say, too expensive for most consumers, and as a result, I don't see that many on the road, but when I do, I'm very excited, and I guess you have probably a huge group of fanboys like me.
Well, we're very close to delivering the first of the Curtis One product that will come out later this year, so we've taken us about six years to get to where we are. We wanted to make the best possible electric motorcycle that could be made, and we had this dream really from the beginning of creating a motorcycle from the inside out. We were just awarded a patent on this idea, which is you tap the drive shaft through the center of this F one inspired axial Flox motor.
It's an eleven thousand dollars electric motors, the best electric motor in the world, and you tap that axle and then you line up the motorcycle on the center line of the motor and the axle, so it's the first motorcycle ever made where symmetry is actually framed, so the balance of the two wheel device is a little bit better, you know, if you think about it, all the early motorcycle makers were bicycle makers first, so motorcycle has really always been taking a bicycle and then figuring out how
to motorize it. This would be the first time where you start really by tapping the axle, so it's more of an organic approach, and we think it's really led to a more beautiful outcome. The bike certainly rides beautifully, the control is amazing, it's very easy to use. We think there's a new audience out there for two wheeled luxury motoring, we'd like to say, because it's it's just so sublime and it's like gliding over the ttarmac when you ride it.
So I talked to I'll never forget talking to Kevin Cameron at the Moto GP in Indianapolis about ten years ago, and he thought, you know, motorcycles are not the place where electricity is going to be the powertrain. But now you've got a lot of competitors in Harley Davidson, they've got the live wire. I've ridden in a Nergica bike that I thought was a pretty and zero with, both of which I thought were pretty cool experiences.
This is though a different level.
As you say, it's a complete re engineering of the bike to make it an electric vehicle. What kind of order interest have you got? What kind of you know of a book are you building? In terms of selling these things.
We've got, we have thirty two firm sales or the first one thirty. We're only going to make one hundred and thirty of this particular model.
And they were like grand or ninety grand to start.
One hundred and twenty thousand, So it starts at one twenty and goes up from there. But the situation is much better than that because we have twenty five hundred qualified expressions of interest. So I believe it's going to come down more to who we really target. We hope to get just the right customers. Now. Now we have approximately thirteen hundred folks that have bought our bikes in
the past. The average about one hundred thousand of bikes, so we have a pretty good deck of people that have done business with us, and they're all satisfied with what they what we made for them.
Were those Confederate Bikes that was the original.
Those bikes. We built about thirteen hundred of those and they average about one hundred thousand. So there's quite a few billionaire customers. And I think the richest man in the world had one. I believe he was unfortunately to cease. Now we have a lot of we do. We do have some some uh extremely accomplished. Uh.
That's kind of where I wanted to go, Matt. I mean, I know nothing about the motorcycle business, unlike Matt, who is an expert. But just give me a sense of how you position Curtis Curtis Motorcycles in the marketplace. Who's your typical buyer and how has that evolved.
Well, we're taking in a different approach. We we're making. This is a one to eighty degree difference. I had this I had this this thing about wanting to be like a MG to Harley, So I wanted to make a very bombastic bike before with the big V twins. Now I'm in a whole different mindsets, as is the Curtis team, and so we're going more like you would think of motoring pre World War Two, like the gentle cruise with all that torque so the bike is really tuned.
The bike is capable of enormous amount ounce of tor probably as much or more than any machine ever made for the road. But it's but the tuning of the motorcycle is very very easy, is for very easy use. You could you could let your young daughter or your wife ride it. It's so easy to ride. And and that's that's what we're really going for. So we we believe that we can open up this, this idea of motoring on two wheels to a much broader audience just
because frankly, it's it's it's very confidence inspiring. All the tuning is made to give you great confidence when you're in the saddle and uh, and it's it's it's very very sublime. The overall experience, no noise, you can get more involved with the elements. Uh, it's it's really a much. I disagree with Kevin. I think that the I think a lot more people will come to this, that it
may be a different type of rider. I'm not sure that all of the icy fan base will want this, but I think there's a broader audience of people that will. In relative to other electric motorcycle companies, some of those bikes are tuned for more aggression. We could make race bikes that would be very, very fast, but that's not really what the Curtis rotting experience is about. It's really about ease control.
I actually had a conversation with Galutsy about this, and that's kind of like what he was trying to do. Miguel on heel Galuzzi, who designed.
The I'm speaking for our entire audience TOI, he designed the Ducatti Monster.
And now Miguel very well, yes.
Can you tell us anything about the people who ordered your bikes? I know Brad Pitt has a confederate. I think Tom Cruise has one. I think I've seen one in Jay Leno's garage. Are you allowed to give us that kind of information on the h on the Curtis.
What I will tell you is is that the is it the people that the people that have ordered our bikes in the past and the people that are ordering the Curtis are the coolest people. I mean, I know this sounds like what you would expect to hear, but I swear is the truth. They're the sweetest, most wonderful people.
One of the greatest thing about my career has been that in the motorcycle business is the type of people who migrated toward wanting the things that we make that you know, they're just wonderful folks.
You're based down in Alabama, is that right, Mett?
Well, we have a small shop right outside of Birmingham, Alabama and Leeds, and we have a studio in New Orleans.
What's it like.
We're going to build the first the first one thirty here and then we're gonna then We're not sure exactly where the next shop will be, but we're following this Tesla model of business. So we'll start really small, thirty forty and then sixty bikes a year, and then in the four or year of production, we're looking to build maybe as many a seven or eight hundred at a lower price point, which will come in about sixty and then we'll have a thirty thousand dollars product and then
a fifteen thousand dollars product. So our business model is very similar to what mister Musk created, which is a smart way to do it. So you start at the very tippy top of the market and you slowly work your way down.
I've recently talked to your wife on the phone about your shareholding, your structure. You have OTC shares. CMOT is the ticker. How are you going to raise funds or do you need to raise funds any further?
We're raising money now, so a there's an ability to buy shares direct on our website as of this point in time. So we like the idea of the kind of democratization of the direct to investor approach. So we're using that. We feel that it's a really good feel very strongly that we have a tremendous opportunity long term.
I think we have the right approach. I think that we're the only company that's really starting at the very top right and then working down and we have we have a pedigree from making bikes that are desired by this category of owner exs.
All right, Matt, thanks so much for joining us. Matt Chambers, CEO and chairman of the board of Curtis Motorcycle. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer.
I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller nineteen seventy three.
And I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio