Another big story today, just breaking in the last hour or so, Apple facing a potential tax bill running into billions of euros with the EU. The European Union poised release of finding into its dealings in Ireland as soon as Tuesday. Dared Doyle joins us, and now he is one of the These are actually our Dublin bureau chief. He's been writing a lot about what's going on with
Apple in this whole tax and version situation. Also, we're joined by senior international national tax or reporter Kevin Bell for Bloomberg News. So welcome, gentlemen, and Daryl, let's start with you set the table for us of of what what has been going on between Apple and the EU
and what's about to happen. Yes, this has been gone back a couple of years where the European Commissioners were looking into Apple tax arrangements in Ireland, and as far back as two thousand and fourteen they gave us some glimmery findings that they reckoned that Ireland had given essentially given Apple some tax breaks in return for some jobs. And what we've all been waiting for is the amount of the arrears of Apple might pay. And that's kind
of a gathering page on speculations. It could be very little, around a hundred million euros, but we've learned this evening is that the arrears and will run into billions of euros. We have made been any more specific than that, but we're talking at big number here. I mean, like in the context, I mean Apples sitting on about two h billion euros of cash. So it's not short few dollars, but still two billion or so and going to be pretty for Apple if that's the way it turns out tomorrow.
So what what's at stake than for for Ireland and for how this is going to play out in terms of future cases, for future disputes. That's a good question. Aren't in a very usual position? Apple is going to actually have to pay this money to Ireland? Okay? But Iren the saying we don't want this money. Okay, we don't want your two billion, you keep your two billion. The reason being is they're afraid of tarnishing their reputation.
The seas weeks in the US, and we've got a number of companies here, Facebook, Google, Iron needs to show the standing shoulder to show there will Apple on this issue, because if it doesn't be a concern that US companies to get nervous about Iron's commitments to the multinational sector
that's such an important part of our economy. So bizarre situation in our government saying no, we don't want your two three four billion that even though that could possibly you know, by you know, more schools and more hospitals, etcetera, etcetera. And the reason that is is a concern about tarnishing or incloss reputation. So there's a lot of safe here for Iron's Arn't has vowed to fight this all the
way to the final course in the European courts. Um. So there's a long way to go to This could be another five years and this before we see any money coming to Ireland. And it's a long way to go into one. All right, So Kevin, you jump in with us, as I said, he's our senior international tax reporter, Kevin Bell. So so what does the specific UH law that is this whole tax this whole decision is hinging
on right now, High Catherine. Um. It revolves around transfer pricing. UH. It's a very deep technical subject that involves accounting, tax and economic rules, and for for decades, the o e c D has has its own set of rules, the o e c D Transfer Pricing guidelines. And then, as a Dara has pointed out, a couple of years ago, these the state aid cases started and the United States would argue that, Um, the European Commission is coming up with its own set of transfer pricing rules and it's
those rules that are playing in this case. So, Kevin, have you ever heard anything like this is worth the Irish government saying no, no, we don't want the money we want to They don't want to antagonize all those U S corporations that they want to keep doing business in Ireland. Um. In the TACs world, it's a very bizarre dynamic that. Um, you you have a government saying I don't want tax revenue. But from Ireland's perspective, it's very very understandable. UM. Ireland's tax regime has has been
a huge selling point to tow US companies. You only have to be at double in airport to see the US executives and computer folk. UM. So this this whole situation that's been a real headache for the Irish government and Dared Doyle, Um, like you've written a few different stories touching on the possibility of an appeal, how would that work. Well, first of all, think it's really important to make a one point here. What's not on the threat here is Ireland's corporate tax rate, which is twelve
point five percent. This case is not about our twelve point five percent rate, which is really the key to attracting companies like Google and Facebook LinkedIn to Ireland. It's very important to remember that, as Kevin said, sort of a dB technically as you hear about transfer pricing and whilest deals done on the side, you know, with Apple
and Ireland to kind of let them pay left. But very clearly what this isn't about the twelve point five percent rate, which will which will remain the pillar of Irish economic policy. That is very clear on that one. So in fact, the implications of this case may not be huge in that it doesn't seem like any other US corporased operating Ireland are facing similar probe, at least not that we know at this point. So you know,
there isn't that threat there. But in terms of the appeal of what will happen, I mean it's in the very start Ireland that will fight is all the way to the court. They have employed very expensive lawyers in London to begin the process that they've embracing for new Rude the last two years. So what lit will disappearance of the court could be five years or so. In
the meantime, Apple will pay the money to Ireland. I don't will keep it in a special ring fenced account and they won't said they won't spend they won't spend that money. What's interesting now is that people aren't up beginning to say, but hold on, you guys want to us don't want this money. This money could buy as hospital, schools, et cetera. And so it's litical pressure is beginning to build a little bit. You know. Now people are focusing
on the routing. We're gonna connect tomorrow and say, hump, let's just make any sense take you know's gonna take this calash So it's gonna be very interested. Dynamic's my point of view. Fascinating. Der Doyle laying out the story with his bureau chief in Dublin for Bloomberg News as well as our senior international tax reporter, Kevin Bell. I'm Kathleen Hayes. This is Bloomberg