Big Media Fends Off Congress Over Content: SocialFlow CEO

the spread of that. Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey is talking right now. Twitter has been proposing an idea where users can choose from a series of algorithms supposedly created by groups outside Twitter. It's just an idea right now, but you can be sure that all of the CEOs will be proposing some sort of ideas so that they don't

have ideas imposed upon them. So now to talk more about what we might hear today and the reaction to it, let's bring in Jim Anderson of Social Capital, and just for reasons of um disclosure, we should mention that Social Flow is used by Bloomberg as well. So Jim explained

to us, first of all, what social flow actually does. Yeah, We're we're the social marketing platform that many of the big media companies use to get their content out to Facebook and Twitter and other social network so so we're very much the conduit through which a lot of that information flows. And of course, reputable media companies that you know, reputable is I suppose subject to some degree of interpretation. You know, your view of what is reputable may be

different than someone else's. Use these social platforms enormously. You know, we see about fifty million posts a year go out. They get more than a trillion and annual reach. So these are enormously important platforms for media companies, and of

course they're enormously important platforms for all kinds of messaging. So, you know, it's interesting, Jim, I guess one of the most fundamental questions is are these companies media companies, specifically Facebook and then also Twitter and Alphabet or they just

simply technology platforms for content. Well, they'll certainly say their technology platforms, right, they don't want to be branded as media companies because that comes with a whole set of obligations, including perhaps not Section two thirty protection, which is what's being talked about in his hearing, and so that's been sort of a long running debate. And and in fairness to their position, uh, you know, they don't generally create

the content, right, what do media companies do? They create contents. They typically take a point of view, they have editorial judgment those kinds of things. And what Facebook and Twitter and Google will all say is we don't do that, right, We largely don't create the content. We try to avoid being the editorial voice. You've hurt Mark Zuckerberg say time and time again, we don't want to be the arbiter

of truth. Now, there are certainly counter arguments to that and legitimate points on the other side, but at least from their positioning, they don't want to be viewed as media company. Where are they in agreement? I mean obviously there, but but in general when it comes to making arguments before the committee, where will they all sound like they're in agreements and working together pretential even and where will they differ and want to be very much obviously distant

from each other. Well, I think where they're going to be together is they all depend on section two thirty. Jack Dorsey's initial statement said, you know, section two thirty is incredibly important, and that removing section to thirty protections will removed content from the Internet. And I think you'll see variations of that same theme coming from all three. I think where you may differ is in terms of

algorithmic seed you know. I think Twitter has the opportunity to create a little bit of daylight between Facebook and Google, because relatively, Twitter tends to be more in the moment, live, what's happening right now, whereas Facebook and YouTube, which is the most sort of relevant um part of Google to this conversation, tends to be more algorithms algorithmically driven. Uh. And it may not be as important that it happened

five minutes ago, it may have happened yesterday. But if the oderithm is determined that you might like it it is relevant to you, they'll surface it. So I would expect Twitter to be somewhat less defensive of algorithms and more willing to compromise on Hey, if you want to regulate somethings, then regulate the way the algorithms surface content. So, Jim,

I understand why Facebook is testifying today Twitter. These are social network platforms that really traffic in, you know, news and content I'm a little unsure why alphabet is involved. Why why do you think they're there? Yeah, I think it is mostly about YouTube. You think about the way people consume YouTube. You know, you you open up and watch a video. However you saw it, maybe you saw I don't know, social network, or somebody emails or texted

it to you, or you just discovered it. Well, there's a very powerful you know, sort of following videos other videos like this pain that shows up. And so what happens is you sit down to watch one YouTube video and before you know what, you've watched twelve YouTube videos, right, and what those other eleven that you watched are very powerfully chosen by algorithms that are incredibly similar in concept

and the scope to what Facebook does. Right, So so that hey, if you're interested in I'll just pick something law in order, then you may be interested in this other type of content. And the problem that Google has run into is if this other type of content is the white supremacy, you know, they end up having algorithms that recommend content, it's highly questionable. And the algorithms don't know, right, they don't exercise editorial judgment. So the algorithm just knows

that you watched a piece of content like this. Other people who watch content like this would be interested in something related, and so they served you up something that may be entirely inappropriate and that even Google may ultimately decide is inappropriate and removed from YouTube. But it's pretty much a cat and mouse game in terms of keeping that that questionable content off of the platforms. So this

is hilarious, Jim. They couldn't make contact with Mark Zuckerberg, so now that there's a recess in order to be able to continue the hearing on bad behavior shortly. But how ironic is that? I mean? How also, how will I be read that the committee couldn't get in touch with Mark Zuckerberg? He walln't available to speak to the committee? Right? Well, I mean, so you know, we all sort of deal with zoom. You know, he does run Facebook, I understand. So you know, I think your question about how will

it also want to be perceived. Is it just a technical snatt food that's quickly resolved, or is he off doing something and he just decided decided to blow off, you know, congressional testimony that obviously wouldn't be received. Well, I would have to believe that you know, he takes this seriously, understands the importance of the Senate and Congress and regulations. So my my guess is at the technical issue. But you know, I guess we'll have to wait and speake. Yeah, yeah,

he's back now. I guess they've they've rebooted and he's back, so hopefully they get started again. Jiff, just wondering. You know, historically, um in the United States, regulators government has taken a very light touch to regulating big tech, and arguably that's allowed big tech to be what it is in Silicon Valley, to be what it is with all the successes. You

sense it that's changing. I think it's definitely changing. I think it's it's true they have taken a light touch, and I think it's a very fair statement to say that's been allowed for enormous growth, wealth creation. You know, these companies are some of the biggest companies in the world now as a result in part of that might touch.

But you know, when a company gets to be you know, near a trillion dollars in market gap or in the two trillion dollars, I'll throw Apple and this mix, obviously, it's a it's a different kind of company, but it's sort of certainly falls into big tech. You know, when you end up with market capitalizations in the trillion dollar range, you know you're you're almost government size at that point.

And I think, you know, you get to to be too big and and have too many issues and too many problems and too many enemies, just lantly from a political standpoint, so, I think it's clear both Democrats and Republicans have a very high degree of anxiety and angst and even animosity against the tech platforms. The interesting thing

is that they're almost diametrically opposed. Right Democrats think that the tech platforms are not doing enough to combat misinformation, Republicans think that the text platforms are censoring conservative content. Those are almost exactly diametrically opposed. And so where you get into these real interesting questions is, well, what's the remedy?

Right If if you want to revoke Section two thirty protections and make the platforms more liable from a conservative perspective, then you're more likely to get somebody like Facebook and Twitter removing conservative content because they don't have any legal protections if they keep it up. And so I think there's a very real risk here that that somebody will actually make the situation worse from their standpoint, um, if they're not very fontibule about how these regulations are determined

and enacted. Jim, what would you imagine will be the role of Twitter in public life if the presidency turns over? Well, I think in Twitter will still be very important. You know, I think everybody may take a breath, and the pace of tweets coming from the President I would have to believe be considerably lower. Um. And in some ways that's a negative for Twitter, because you know, you could argue that Donald Trump's presidency has done a tremendous amount to

keep Twitter relevant. But I think Twitter, if if you sort of got an honest view from them, might actually welcome the rest of it, because it comes with a lot of headaches and a lot of anxiety and a lot of problems. So I think Twitter will continue to be very important. But I don't think you'll see, let's say, for instance, President Biden if he wins uh, you know, making declarations on Twitter, certainly not at a volume and

in the way that President Trump does. Jim. I guess the ultimate concern for tech investors is perhaps some of these companies get broken up. Do you think there's a material risk that that could happen. Yeah, I would almost call it not just the material risk, but a likelihood. Now, I think the real question is how and when and how how long does it take? Right that this is antitrust is a year's long process. There will be plenty of litigation. But going back to the size of these companies,

it's hard to argue Facebook, Google, certainly. Twitter maybe is a little bit of a different story because you know, Facebook is sixty times larger than Twitter if you want to think about it from a market capitalization standpoint. The lands I checked, so you know, it's it's unfair to lump Twitter into the antitrust conversation the way you would Facebook, Google, or even Amazon or Apple if you want to be

more expansive. And I think every one of those four big tech companies faces a very significant risk of of antitrust action and then either ultimately being broken up or reaching a settlement where they voluntarily choose to diveet certain components to satisfy regulatory concerns. And by the way, not

just in the United States. These are global companies that you have to start thinking about the EU and other jurisdictions as well, if you're the CEO of one of these companies, and in my mind it at least to some degree or another, some degree of antitrust impact is inevitable on all four of those big, big giant tech platforms. Yeah, I mean, the EU is way far ahead in many ways, and you notice it when you you you you browse around on European websites, you get asked a whole range

of questions about you know, what, what what? What information you want to give away? How many people can you know can use it and pass it on and so on. So it is interesting. But so we know that Mark Zuckerberg had the year of President Trump. We know he wasn't going to tell us what was said in that room. Would he us the same kind of relationship with a

different president, Uh, you know that's a great question. I'm not sure he will, right, I mean, you know, President Trump is a unique president at a unique moment in time. I think, if nothing else, for reasons of optics, President Biden isn't necessarily going to want to be perceived as cozying up the big tech and and then you know, never mind what the specific personal conversations were in private.

I think all you know, big tech platforms have given the opportunity to have an audience with the president, would choose to say yes, Why why would you not do that? Uh? You know, I think any anytime you have the ability to advance your cause and how people understand your business and your position, you're probably going to want to take it. So I would not be at all surprised again as president if if Joe Biden does win and become president, that you'll see as somewhat of a distance put between

him and big tech in general. And then you ultimately we'll have to see how the Congress shakes out as well. Uh. You know what, what their appetite is a lot of you know, what we see now is certainly inflamed by the election in season. Um, once the election results are decided and we're past that, then we'll find out what the real appetite is for for real heavy lifting of

legislation and regulatory reform. You know, Jim, this seems to this, maybe even this hearing seems to have really come about in the wake of that New York Post Hunter Biden story. Why do you why do you think that got so much traction. Well, I think it's a Twitter you know, handled that in a very aggressive way. Some people would say mishandled that, right, I mean that's a matter of perspective.

I think what you see, though, is that the tech platforms Twitter in this case, are are super sensitive to the idea that there's an October surprise that will come out, there's an information dump of unverified information. Uh, there's an impact on the election, and before anybody has a chance to really that what was going on, you know, it's affected the election, and and you know, the tech platform

towards the center of it. I think that's the concern of what happened, at least in the view of some back in two thousand sixteen, and so they were super primed for this, and so they acted very quickly, but in many ways they overreached, right. They they suspended the Twitter account of the New York Post. And whether you agree with the New York Post and editorial view or not, they are the New York Post. They are generally considered

to be a reputable news source. And so when you haven't platforms blocking the Twitter Twitter handle of a news outlet, that's a pretty significant move. Yeah, Jim, We're gonna have to leave there. Jim Honderson, CEO of Social Flow. Yeah, markets selling off, the excelling as accelerated. We have the SMP that Dow and NASAC all off about three cent. Let's bring in Sarah Posic Bloomberg across asset reporters. Sarah, it seems like this selling has accelerated here. Uh, we're

seeing bigger losses. Selling has accelerated. If you look across the major averages right now towards the loads of the days, a couple of technical levels that some investors are watching. For example, if you were to look at the SMP five hundred, take a look at its one hundred day moving average. We broke through the fifty day not too long ago, just a couple of days ago till today, we broke through that one day moving average, which stands

just at thirty three oh six or so. So we're still trading below it as some investors, including Matt Maillie over at Miller's Havoc, are looking closer to the thirty two thirty level or so, uh for support should we need it. We still are a ways away from that level. But if we were to break that level there would be concerned because we would then break the trend line since March. But as you mentioned, you look at the major averages, the DOUBT, the SMP, at the NAZAC, they

are all down more than three at the moment. The worst thing for the SMP since early September when the correction really first began, which was really led by tech stocks at the time. But well, equity selling has really picking up. You could say, what's interesting is that we still see pretty moderate gains in treasuries. We're not seeing

a huge rust to safety and assets. You look at the tenure for example right now at seventy six basis points, not flat on the day, but not seeing too much movement. So at least in the bond market, you haven't seen the safe haven rush pick up as we have seen equity losses accelerate throughout the morning. Let's also bring in

Gina Martin Adams, chief equity strategist for Bloomberg Intelligence. Gina, you know, we we thought that the tech hearring would be the big event of the day, but it turns out the markets are becoming the major event of the day. Is this something that we should start getting concerned about? Well, I think that they're actually related issues. I mean, the market is weakest in the tech base, um, the communication stocks and tech stocks sort of leading to clines along

with energy. So I think that the two issues are somewhat related. Um. You know, as Sarah mentioned back in September is the start of this correction, and it all started with tech stocks starting to sell off. And we have seen a tremendous amount of rotation since September. Even the early October rally was certainly suspicious given that it was led by utility stocks. So you know, I think that what you have here is a case of tech stocks losing a little bit of their luster. They're expected

to be relatively weak in the third quarter. Uh, You've got um some serious regulatory pressures dampening the outlook for some of the communications stuck, some of those big bell weathers that are related to tech. And at the same time, we've got a little bit of loss of macro momentum that is weighing on the market, and a lot of election jitters. So it's kind of a confluence of events. But I do think the tech is still at the center of the market weakness and has been since early

September Gene. How much of this is just kind of the pandemic numbers globally going the wrong direction. Ah, I don't know how much of it honestly is a pandemic. I know that that's an easy sort of culprit to point to, and certainly the fact that the pandemic is re accelerating case counts re accelerating once again does have some people nervous about what that may mean for the economic outlook. But I do think that for the most part, it's unlikely that global economy shut down like they did

in March. Um. Instead, there do appear to be alternative measures for dealing with the virus case count load moving higher, and they don't all um necessarily results in a massive economic shutdown. I think instead it may be related to

the fact that case counts are moving higher. We don't have a vaccine yet, and fiscal policy seems to have stalled, so we don't have a fiscal policy package to sort of back stop the economy and help us re accelerate that macro momentum in the face of case counts going higher. We're not likely to reopen more in the face of

case counts going higher so it is. It is a peripheral a fact, but I think it's more about the fact that, you know, the global economy did recover pretty substantially from March into college September, and that recovery has slowed in the weeks since um and that slowdown has investors a little bit nervous, particularly without any sign of support coming from the fiscal policymakers. Sarah, We're looking across said, and you know it, it's pretty cost the board today.

It's just a general feeling of mal is you know, given everything that Gena Martinas said right. I mentioned that we aren't really seeing a huge shift in the bond market. But if you look at currency markets, for example, we see the dollar higher today, we see the Japanese yenn higher today. Those are the two best performing G ten currencies, and the end is the only major currency that it's

higher against the U S dollars. So we are seeing this flock to safety across FX market's a little bit more so, even if we're not seeing it completely reflected in the bond market. Granted, when we look at the bond market, you look at the ten year around seventy six basis points or so, I mean these are still extremely, extremely low bond yield. There had been some talk about movement back up towards one percent just last week. So it's amazing to see how quickly this narrative has really flipped,

how quickly it has changed. And now we just see yields stuck back in the range that we've almost been stuck in all year long, with uncertainty as ahead. Gina laid out many of them, including the election, including the macro tailwinds kind of coming to a head at the moment. And when we think about rising COVID case counts, yes, we likely won't see a lockdown like we saw earlier in the year, but there is a question about one.

We think about the rebound that we saw in the equity markets, how many investors were looking to one and saying the market is a forward looking mechanism, things will get better. Well, how much better can they get if we don't see total improvement, if we don't see treatments, vaccines, whatever you need or deemed necessary to see a full economic recovery. And Sarah just looking at the it's not just the equities here and bonds and currencies. I'm just

looking at oil right here, off over six percent. Today w t I crew trading about thirty seven dollars and ten dollars thirty seven dollars and ten cents of barrel to me, I guess that suggests that that market is saying future demand it's not as good as we thought. Right, that's exactly right. We have seen oil just lodged around that forty dollar a barrel barrel mark, not all year long, but ever since that catastrophe. When we prices go negative, shoot back up, and we have since kind of just

been hovering around that level. If you look at w t I crude oil right now, down more than six that's the worst day since September eight. That day we did see crude oil down more than seven and a

half percent. But like you said, it doesn't seem as though the global demand picture is improving at least and on that front, for example, if you bring it back to stocks that do require plenty of gasoline, for example, you look at airlines, you look at cruise lines, you look at Carnival for example, down ten percent at the moment, Norwegian down more than eight percent. Airlines also taking a hit. So big picture, like you said, that global demand picture

just certainly doesn't look to be improving. It's not heading in the right direction. Gina. Healthcare is funny one these days because I'm seeing a lot of you know, negative comments about healthcare and healthcare industry, and yet we have so many of these companies working so hard on things like pandemic you know, uh solutions and so on. Why is healthcare being so maligned? Yeah, that's a good question.

We actually wrote about this this week because healthcare earnings are starting to roll out in healthcare fundamentally is one of the best position sectors in the SMP five DRED, some of the strongest revenue and earnings growth currently and expected to continue to produce pretty strong fundamental growth going into Yet healthcare is discounted relative to consumer staples and trading at its largest discount relative to the SMP five DRED since it's two thousand nine low, And I think

that that's reflective of policy sort of dominating um the outlook for healthcare stocks. Even in the face of the pandemic, Investors are very concerned about what policy is going to look like. Obviously, with the changes that we've had recently at the Supreme Court, there's a lot of concern about a rollback of Obamacare passed years ago and the impact

that that may have on the insurers. There's also some concern about a blue wave taking over Washington and the impact that may have across the healthcare spectrum spectrum, but in particular on the pharmaceutical and biotech companies, and especially even more targeted there on the prices of their products. So there's a tremendous amount of concern just from the policy perspective, and it's not it doesn't even stop there.

You've got to roll into tax policy as well, because healthcare companies do practice inversions, they have a ton of cash held overseas, they have a lot of multinational revenue, and some of the Biden proposals on tax would um sort of indiscriminately dampen the outlook for health care as well as technology stuck. So there's a lot of concern from a policy perspective impacting healthcare, and I think that that's dominating the sentiment towards that sector, resulting in tremendously

low valuations in comparison to the rest of the other index. A. Jena, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it. Jina Martin's Adams, she is a senior strategist for Bloomberg Intelligence, and Sara Ponzic, cross asset reporter for Bloomberg News joining us as well. Thank you both, We appreciate your thoughts on this very difficult day in the financial Market's a huge sell off across the board, equities down about three. Let's take a focus in a little bit more on technology.

Certainly center stage here today in Washington, going to be center stage tomorrow when we have over chillion dollars of market cap reporting earnings. Nobody better to talk to than our friend Dan Eyes, Managing director equity analyst at Wedbush Securities. Dan and I are still trying to recover from Penn State's loss at Indiana last week. But Dan, let's try to move forward here. What are you seeing here in the world of big tech and earnings. It's gonna be

a huge day tomorrow. It's huge, and really it's fork in the road situation for tech stocks. You look at Microsoft or strong number stocks selling off. There's really a risk off trade and I think you're seeing it with election backdrop and a lot of evaluations that have moved significantly higher. Now I really view tomorrow as a seminal day for Fanning stocks. I believe fundamentally we're gonna see

strength across the board. I believe this sell off here is short lived in my opinion, as the fundamental strength in tech continues to be there. That's why tomorrow is really we'll call it the world Series, the super Bowl for textox. Well, after last night, I guess, I guess there's no harm in doing that, right done? Just were you watching the hearing this morning? Is very curious as

lone of things stood out to you. Well, I think it's a little more of a grandstanding, but to some extent it really it kicks off what is going to be the belt Way versus Big Tech battle, and this is not gonna softened in terms of momentum. We're gonna see this more and more as begin two thousand and twenty one. A blue weave, you know, potentially sends anti trust as well as even Section two thirty issues more in the forefront, and I think it just speaks to

right now there's a target on the back attack. And I think when you see social media players like today, you're really starting to see them leaser more in on two thirty as it seems reforms is clearly on the horizon regardless of who gets in the White House. So, Dan, assuming we go that path, what do you think the risk is to the business model of some of these social media platforms? And I guess we'll throw Alphabet in there as well, given its YouTube product. How do you

kind of frame that out? I think it all depends on what the reform looks like on two thirty, and it's going to be a battleground, you know, depending on what we see from from both aisles. But I do believe it's a business model risk, and I think it's something where you know, it could change from an advertising perspective what you see on the social media side, and

from a content perspective. And I think this is something that investors, you know, if you think about just the overall risk against big tax, just forget fundamentals for a sect. It's been viewed as contained background noise rug the shoulders. I think now as we start to get in and through the election two thousand twenty one, it becomes a more pronounced risk potentially to the business models here at social media front and center, but especially when you look

at Google and from the d O j Frount. They're really in the eye of the storm as well as Facebook. Are any of the companies more talkative because of the self look, I think, you know, when you overall look at sort of big tech what we're seeing here, I think you a must have to put into two different sort of buckets. I think there's ones with fundamental catalysts

and now be ones with Apple and Amazon. I think you'll see that tomorrow terms of Amazon the e commerce cloud as well as Apple on five G what I believe is a supercycled iPhone twelve. But when it comes to social media, I mean this, this right now is a risk, and that's why fundamental has become even that much more important to show that advertisers are you know, not leaven the platform. And that's really been the tale

of two cities the last six to nine months. Despite the headwinds and despite potential black eyes, you've really seen come as a Facebook thrive. Yeah. It's it's amazing, Dan, I mean, even during this pandemic um we've seen digital advertising hold up pretty darn well. It almost seems like, you know, this might have been accelerated some of the migration from traditional media to digital media is that something

you've seen. Yeah, I think components of it, but no doubt Google in particular has seen some headwinds, and I think that has been contained relative to sang names where you've seen strength across the board from Netflix to Apple and Amazon and and I think right now, if you look at the valuations, you've had powered on moves, so you've had re ratings, but now the fundamentals can need to continue to sort of see beaton maries type stories going into the next year. And I'll just use Microsoft

as a good example. Those are about as rebustive a quarter that you'll get, and they gave strong guidance and stocks off because investors it's a risk off trade. Stocks had a huge move and they wanted more. And I think that's going into tomorrow. You know, it's really tech doesn't move higher without saying and I'd say the market doesn't move higher without saying hims. That's why tomorrow is really almost support some of their movement between the bulls

and the bears. Is we go into you know, earnings as well as to the selection cycle. Don where is the next round of innovation going to come from? Which of these companies as best positions to you know, blow

our minds in the coming years. Well, I think it's Apple to me when I think about five G and ultimately when I think about a ARE and what they're doing on wearables, I think that's sort of the next level of innovation when I think about what's coming out of Apple, even though many would say the innovations obviously the rear humor, and they continue to prove it wrong. I think when I look at Apple, and of course on the e V side, you know it's really been

just testa. Now you look at GM and others that disruptive technology, I think e V you're going to continue to see that is really just a massive opportunity, and you're seeing more of a blurring of the lines between technology and automotive and some other traditional technology players. But just if you compare look at Microsoft compared to SAP and Enterprise, it just shows Cloud either a winner or a loser. And I think it just shows that why in the sand is continuing to become just that much

more evident in this world. Attack Dan, given what's going on here from the regulatory front as it relates to advertising social media platforms, do you expect Amazon to continue it's push into advertising. It's really become a big, big player in digital advertising. Yeah, and I think for them it's been a great strategic move, but a slippery slope as well as it becomes more and more from a

regulatory perspective front and center. And I think it's something where when you look at an Amazon, it's all about monetization. They're continued to monitize their ecosystem is as really as good as any company has ever done. And I think that's that's really what Bezos continues to drive an Amazon. But no doubt regulatory especially, we're seeing the d og side.

It's going to really not just women acquisitions, but really women some of these coming strategic moves into other areas where they've been free as a bird to go into and Amazon really being a good example where I think you're gonna start to see the wings equipped a bit regardless of what happens in the election cycle. To ask you about these insurance disruptor, I guess they're being called

insure text roots financial going public today? Is that an area that's right for disruption and if so, why hasn't it been already? I think that's a good example where you're starting to see more and more technology or sort of next gen we'ves what i'd say traditional industries, and I think we're seeing on the fan and side of renaissance of growth not just in the US, but even in China with the n I, p O and others.

And I think this is really going to be It's almost a wild wild West in terms of uh disruption of business models. And you're I think you're seeing on the VC side more funding, especially in this area. Why the private companies going after what could be just a massive opportunity on what I've used for the next gen finance side. Hey, Dan, thanks so much. We always appreciate

your thoughts. Dan Ives, Managing director, equity analyst that would Bush Security hopefully are Nittney Alliance will have a better weekend at this weekend coming up. Then, thanks for listening to Bloomberg Markets podcast. You and subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever a podcast platform you prefer. I'm Bonnie Quinn, I'm on Twitter at Bonnie Quinn, and

I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg radio