EV Demand Slows; Modern Classics from Ferrari, Porsche and Ford

I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is hot pursuit.

All right, we have a lot of cool stuff to talk about on today's show. Number one, we're going to talk about the collector car market, because Hannah, you've written a piece about maybe some of the high end Ferrari prices are going to soften a little bit and some American muscle maybe has room to grow.

Yes, yes, you could say that.

We're also going to talk about your Porsche drive.

You've driven yet another amazing Pea car, and I want to get some info from you because you know so much about the company and collecting about what people could get into for a reasonable price.

Now in terms of p cars.

I got a few ideas.

Then we're going to talk about the ev kind of backlash because it was breakneck pace in terms of the growth, sales, growth, investment of more than one hundred billion dollars in this decade, and now we're seeing production get cut and big losses. So it looks like that turning around in a big way.

So let's do it. We'll kick it off with the collector car market.

I used to watch all the time Barrett Jackson and mikam auctions as a kid on whatever cable channel because nothing was on cable except for that, and loved it. But I'm not that in touch with that anymore because I feel like most of the vehicles that I would want are way too expensive.

Yes, I think this is a common thing for all of us. In the years since the pandemic, we've seen record volumes of cars being sold, record sales across many brands BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari. It's been this bonanza, and twenty twenty three has really been the first year where everything is just calmed down a bit, which sounds when you say the market's cooling, it sounds a little negative.

We just want to something fun and drive it.

I mean, you could also say that inflation has come down, which is true, but that doesn't change the massive rise in prices that hasn't and isn't going to turn around.

Right, So, in terms of the higher end.

Cars, the ferraris you know, the Rarer, porschas anything with a race provenance, these prices are gonna stay where they are, right, Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's no sure thing in the car market, but if there's something close, it's Ferrari. This is really the blue chip brand, the blue chip vehicle of car collecting.

Last year, the average price of a Ferrari slipped.

From one point three million to one point two million, So yeah, they came off a little bit, but they're still very expensive, and you know they're going to sell. I think ninety percent of Ferrari sol last year compared to eighty percent average in the market, So.

They're gonna sell.

There's a little bit of a cooling, but yeah, I mean, if you want to have kind of a sure bet, Ferrari is the way to go. And yes they're expensive, but there are a couple of ways you can get into the brand. I'm talking about something like the Ferrari f F, which we kind of touched on.

Yeah, I love I love it plus two.

Yeah, it's a two plus, it's got a V twelve engine, it's it's got all the making exactly of what makes a great Ferrari a great Ferrari.

It's unexpensed manual, no manual option no, and.

That's a shame unfortunately.

I wonder why the people at Ferrari put that to bed. I mean, wouldn't you love to have a gated shifter, even in a new Ferrari.

Yes, yeah, I think you would.

And what I hear from analysts who talk about the collecting market is the reason why the FF is growing in popularity is because it's easy to drive, and a lot of the younger buyers that don't want to mess around with gated shifters that you know, there's more to break, there's more to go wrong. You know, it's not as fun and easy and care free to drive in traffic. So that's actually what I hear is that's working in its advantage in terms of attracting.

So the FF is easier to drive. I can't imagine a Ferrari Dno. Is that difficult to drive because I think of it as a smaller car. I mean it was a smaller car.

Right, absolutely, This was the V six Ferrari that actually wasn't It didn't get a lot of respect back in the day. Of course, it was famously named after Enzo's son who died, and it didn't get respect. It was like kind of seen as not a real ferrari. But this is another example of dinos are going to be a lot less expensive than the two fifty racing ferraris

So an ff, I mean I've been looking, so I know that you can get into them for less than one hundred thousand, but it's going to be around that mark for a good one, right, a little mileage well taken care of, maybe a one owner vehicle. In terms of the Dino, what kind of price are you talking about because it's from the from the seventies, right, So you're not going to probably find a one owner vehicle

I think they're closer to a half million dollars.

I'm looking right now on Haggarty Won in good condition is four hundred and seventy thousand.

That's the average price.

So we're still this is all still very rare air. Yes, you know, a half again, like we're not talking about cheap buys. We're talking about buys that will probably still gain a little bit in value. So if you invest a half a million year, you might make a little bit on that, But there are a lot of cheaper things that if you have an open mind. Now I know we want to talk about Portia.

I don't really think.

That, you know, by the way, just I'll interject that I think the dino I'm looking at the picture in your story kind of looks like a nine oh four a little bit.

Do you get that vibe?

Totally yeah, And I think it looks awesome.

I've always thought they looked really and the great thing about the dino, for whatever reason, they seem to have come in really interesting colors. People were a lot freer in specking them than you know, with other like a Daytona. I mean you just see red, red, red, red red for Ferrari. But with the Dino, I feel like you really see cool oranges and greens and yellows and blues, and so I like that.

I think it's it's actually more interesting in a.

Way, still impossible for most people to afford even consider. And it's so sad because I remember I used to I totally crushed on the Magnum Ferrari. I think it was a eight that he had came three eight or three twenty eight. But I remember when those were going for twenty five or thirty grand, and I seriously thought about getting one. I remember when a Kuntash was going for twenty five or thirty grand. Nobody wanted them.

Well, yeah, go ahead.

And now they're impossible to afford, even even like an E thirty nine M five, which is like, you know, an internet car lover's car is growing in value so much, even like a.

A nine to thirty turbo. Those were twenty grand cars.

Well that's a Steve McQueen car, that's but you.

Know, fifteen years ago you could get those for twenty grand. I know somebody who got quite a few of them for twenty grand back in the day. And now they're you know, three hundred thousand dollars.

I actually saw yesterday on Auto trader A I think it was a early two thousands Cayman R that was one hundred thousand dollars. I mean, I know it's the R model and they didn't make a thousand of them, but still it's insane the prices.

What is there that we can Okay.

Let's talk let's talk a little more down to reality.

Let's talk about the Ford Thunderbird.

I know you like your Detroit cars, so this is, you know, from the mid sixties, and what I'm hearing is the Lincoln Continentals have become so popular, they got really expensive, and they've kind of priced.

Out themselves elves.

So now if people were interested in the Continental but couldn't really afford it, now maybe you should look at a Thunderbird because it's going to be a lot more affordable. You can get one for like maybe forty thousand bucks,

Well, not everybody loves any anymore.

By the way, in terms of the Lincoln Continental, I bet you've mentioned this before, but there's a movie called Hit and Run.

Okay, who's in it, Dak Shepherd, And oh you haven't mentioned Kristin Bell watched it.

Did you watch it?

No?

Oh my god, it's so so so good.

I just can't these names for me.

I do like Silver Linings Playbook is one of my all time.

There's a Cadillac CTSV wagon manual wagon that he drives.

There's just not doing anything.

There's a Corpette Z six, There's a there's a Lincoln Continental that Dax Shepherd in the movie like he and his dad restored it. It's a very good car movie, and I think it's a great movie. So I just but what I'm what I'm noticing is you're the thunderbird, right.

It's the one that you don't want. You want the Continental. If I look at the bmw.

M three, I want the forty six three. I don't want the E ninety two.

I want the ninety two. Look it's gonna come up. This is this is the smart man's bye. You gotta just buy it and hold it and wait that like imagine the Dino that you almost bought but you didn't. This the the E ninety two in particular, you can get one for like fifty thousand. Now the rest of the BMWM three markt is gone up. You know, double digit percentages. This is the one, this is the smart one.

I don't know for me. The at this point, the kidneys looked too tiny, you.

Know, Oh, is that what that is? I was going to say, what do you like about it?

Because now I've gotten used to the ugly, gigantic kidneys that I think they're too small, and the whole front end looks like someone pinched to it.

It's just like women's bodies. You know, I'm not going there, I will go there. It's like, this reminds me of heroin Chic when everyone said Kate Moss was too small because she came up the supermodels were these like voluptuous women, and then we go down to Kate Moss and now we're back in the Kardashian era. It's all relative, you know, it's all like, whatever is the trend.

Is Let's say hemlines, Let's say hemlines.

Who has a heavy.

Let's let's all right, let's talk about the Porsche that you drove, because I also want to get into Porschas that are still possible to buy for regular people.

But the one you drove looked awesome.

I saw your pictures on Instagram and they tore out obviously the interior and they made it into it's a race like an off road race vehicle.

Right, yes, yes, So I have to be really careful because I cannot give driving impressions of this vehicle until next Tuesday, and that is when our actual coverage will come out, so look forward to that.

But just what is it?

Yeah, the car, the car itself.

Is named Edith, and it's based on a nine to eleven and nine to nine to two Kara four s that Porsche basically Frankenstein into a rock crawler.

This is not a nine to eleven de car.

This is not some Safari Baja style nine to eleven that goes fast over sand. This is a rock crawler max speed sixty miles an hour, seven speed manual. And you can barely even move forward in first gear. I mean you could really you can really start the car in second gear and be fine. So this is this is about going slow over very very very rough, uneven terrain. And this is the car that they claim the world record for the highest altitude cross by a vehicle. This

It does look awesome.

So it's made for like maximum articulation exactly, you know, pulling power exactly.

And they even pulled some of the actual components from the nine to nineteen that they had developed back in the day for that race car and actually never used. So they're pulling old stuff to build this build on top of this nine nine to two career. For us, it's a very cool idea. They're not selling them, they're not making anymore. It's a one of one thing that they just wanted to do to get the record. And yeah, I all right, so say much.

Well, no, no, you do not to say much more about it, but I will say when I looked at your instat Grand Posts, you know, I always complain about the fact that the the car is so expensive and unattainable, even though it's like that would be the perfect commuting Porsche for many people who live in cities like this.

Yes, and I'm sure like that.

And I looked at your pictures and thought, oh, you just safari your own like Matt Farra is the first one that I saw when he did that to his Do you see a lot of people doing that or yes? Is that a trend that has stuck with us or was it just a few people.

In the well, it's it's a huge It's a huge trend, especially in California. I mean the to Baja like a Baja Bug or a Baja nine to eleven is not unusual at all. There's a guy out here named TJ. Russell who is building basically Baja style nine to elevens that can can go fast like the Dakar but can also rock crawl. Lee Tuttle is another one. So there are companies that will do it for you. Basically, you give them the car and then they will speck it for you and make it really capable. And yeah, I

But the problem is now, like if I want to buy a nine to eleven and take it to tuttle.

I have to be, like, you know, a rock star or a pro wrestler.

I think the wait list is a several years on them.

But even to get like, can you still get an old eighties Carrera? Everyone talks about the G fifty They really want that transmission? Or can you still get like a nine to sixty four in good shape for less than you know, eighty ninety thousand dollars.

No, I think those days are really over, and I do think you know again, when I spoke with I spoke with analysts from K five hundred, which is a great data firm based in Europe, among Haggardy Classic car all of those guys are saying, look, the nine to six form in particular probably will gain a little bit more value, and the nine nine toy three there's some

Shoot, you used to be able to go at to.

Pomona, swap meat out here in California and get like a nine to eleven t for seventy five hundred bucks on the regular.

Or a nine to nine to six Turbo that was yeah.

And you know they even had engines in them. These were running driving cars. And so I do really think that those days, unfortunately are over.

So what do you think is the most attainable of I mean, I guess a nine nine to seven. People haven't gone crazy for those yet.

Now here's the thing.

I think that if you are willing to buy a high mileage nine to eleven, you can get a great deal. For instance, we at home have a nine to nine to one Turbos with over one hundred and eight thousand miles on it, and that's the daily I drove. That's what I drove here today. I drive it often. It's got one hundred and eighty thousand miles. We got it for pennies on the dollar, and that used to be the top of the line. It's at twenty fourteen. It was the top of the line.

Of course. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I one time I spoke with Wolfgang Porsche and I asked him which one he would buy if you could have it?

Did he say that one?

He said a Turbos, And I thought it was such a boring answer, but no, I get it.

I if I was going to have a new nine to eleven right now, i'd have the nine to nine two turbos, and the Daily right now is a nine to nine one.

So I think the high mileage thing is interesting, and I hadn't really thought about it. Every time I look for a car, like probably everybody else, I limit the mileage. But I saw that guy Paul Kramer has a rally like a nineteen eighty six Carrera car and he apparently bought it with two hundred thousand miles on it and now has like over three hundred thousand miles on it. So do you see Porschas with like high mileage doing well? I mean, are they just reliable cars you if you take care of them.

Well, yeah, there's a friend. I've got a friend out in Florida who drives his three point fifty six cross country and has for years. I need to check back in, but I know he's probably in the two to three hundred thousand miles on his three five six. I don't see why it's a bad thing to me a car with super low miles. I'm like, h hasn't really been tried and tested, has it.

Right.

Paul's a great guy. That green car, I think that's the one you're talking about that.

He's got the Turtle LaTortuga exactly.

He drives it everywhere and I think I'm actually going to see him on Saturday. He's got a little a little gathering down at his shop. But to me, high mileage, if the car has been maintained, I think the important thing is how many owners has it had? What are the maintenance records? Like where did it live? Is this car in Detroit or is it in you know, Santa Barbara.

Let's move to the world of evs because you know, we've been talking about this a bunch, but I think dark clouds have really moved in here. There was massive growth in twenty twenty two annual EV sales in the US crew sixty percent. Last year they only grew forty seven percent. But in the fourth quarter of last year, EV sales only grew one point three percent, and analysts at UBS expect growth this year to only be eleven percent. So they're still growing EV sales, you know, in the

It's really interesting to see, you know, you sent me a bunch of these great reporting that Bloomberg reporters have done on this topic, and it's kind of unbelievable how there's just a hard component of American consumers that are like, no, we were not considering evs.

We don't want them.

I think one of the reports you sent me, Matt said about half of Americans just say flat out not interested in evs.

Right.

Well, and that's that's new.

I thought about getting an EV for my wife. I mean, we have for our family because we want to offset the carbon footprint that my challenger creates. And there are incentives, mind you. You know, the government has taken it upon themselves to take money from taxpayers from all of us and try and subsidize this. Not just the US government, right, governments around the world are using tax payer money to try and subsidize the EV industry, so you want to do it. I look at BMW, for example, has the IX,

What that seems wild because evs have far fewer components.

That's exactly what I thought.

So that how does that even?

So?

The problem is all down to the battery and the ability to take a charge. That's what can Sumer reports your cell phone. It's yes, and that's the most reported problem for battery electric vehicles that even if you pull up to you know, your super charger or whatever, the battery in your car or something in between the charger and your battery isn't working well enough to charge you up.

Right, Yeah, that's that honestly, is a terrifying scenario for me. And it's definitely even on press cars. I get so we joke about it at home. I get so anxious about like if the tank shows tank quote unquote shows a quarter or less of range, I won't drive the car because I don't believe that it's a mile to mile exact.

You know it is in no, but it's not as I'll get into a car and it says, oh, you have two hundred miles of range. No, I put the pedal down, I get on the you know, sprain Brook, and then all of a sudden it says, wait, you have one hundred and twenty.

Yeah, I know that is honest terrifying.

And the other thing is, you know, I'll take cars up Angeley's Crest up here a highway too, and when you're going uphill, clearly you use a lot more battery, especially if you're pushing it a bit. And yes, I know in my head that when I come down the breaks will regenerate some power.

I know that logically, But.

When I'm driving up the hill and I see I can literally just watch range dwindle in front of my eyes, it's terrifying.

Yeah, so I don't like it.

No, I think that range anxiety that you're talking about, the fact that the charging network is terribly poor, by the way, I saw in a story, because the government is now going to give even more money I think another seven hundred million dollars to try and improve the charging infrastructure.

But the first federally funded chargers.

Just went into it's unbelievable use in Ohio I think in November or December in Ohio first, and then New York just now like last month, which is crazy.

Too little, too late, I mean, it's Oh and the other thing that that reminds me of I saw that you know, China, I think is a really big important thing to talk about when we're talking about EV's because that's basically where everything exciting is happening with EV's. But back to your point about the government, there's still like

Pollstar two is one that's made in China, and I've driven right here.

You know.

It's interesting.

Italy is now going to give another billion dollars in incentives. Car makers are asking the UK to give now multiple billion dollars in tax cuts. I think almost nine billion pounds, so well over ten billion dollars. Governments around the world continue to throw the money at this industry and really are trying to subsidize the growth of evs, but the

You just can't turn that around. You know. It's a very big ship. So even if they seem.

Unpopular now, maybe we get through this storm and there are clear skies ahead.

Well, it seems like, you know, with the amount of money that stands to be lost if they don't take off.

I mean, just look at how much.

Governments are are now investing and automakers are investing in making them succeed.

You're right.

I mean it just seems crazy to just all of a sudden say never mind.

And I just can't.

You can't know you can't. And I don't think this is the quote unquote end of EV's They still they there was still growth and EV sales last year. It just wasn't as much as previous years. But there is still incremental growth. So I think we should keep that in mind. It's not like there next year they're just going to disappear way too much at stake.

Well, I mean, I had a baby six weeks ago, and I'm not in your life.

Your wife had a baby, Yes I'm not.

You know, I'm not enjoying the sleepless nights and all I do is change diapers and she's crying all the time, but I can't put her back. Like it's at this point we're going forward with this child.

You know, that's a genie that I think genie is out of the bottle.

I think it's the same with electric cars.

By the way, I will say that I'm driving the F one to fifty lightning right now.

Oh, what do you think, Well, it's very fast.

It's unusual that you wouldn't have mentioned it sooner in the conversation, because typically you start right off telling me about the huge trucks starving of the week. But this, this is, this is like the least excited I've seen you be about a truck.

I just think it's not for me. Let's say, I'd rather have a gas version. I'd much rather have a big diesel motor in there.

It sounds like you're kind of bored with it.

It's just, yeah, it's like a utility, an appliance, an appliance. I mean, sorry, it's like an appliance. It doesn't really ignite any passion in me. And I'm you know, people at my house are a little bit derisive about the size of the screen. The screen in the middle reminds me of have you seen Spaceballs?

Not for about twenty years, but you.

Remember dark helmet? Right, they're making fun of Darth Vader, and he has the biggest talent. It's just a ridiculously sized helmet. And that's what the screen and the like. They could have made it half the size and I still would have had just as much functionality.

Out of it.

I just it seems almost a joke. But yeah, it's it's fast, it's you know, useful.

Are people nice to you on the road when you're driving it?

Well, not because of the way I drive.

No, So you still drive like a real joke.

Well, it's so quick.

I'm like, coming down here on the West Side Highway, I'm just weaving in and out of traffic.

Yeah, because it's so fast.

So there's that, you know, But it's still I'd rather have I'd much rather have a Super Duty with a six point seven liters power stroke. I mean, i'd rather have a Raptor, you know. Obviously I'd rather have a Bronco.

Do you find that the bigger of the truck shorter the man?

Oh well, I mean I'm six four.

So that's why I asked you're you're an anomaly.

I mean maybe I'm maybe maybe I'm making up for something.

I don't know, but I just like I didn't say it.

I didn't.

I like big cars too, you know.

That's why I look that big Bentley and the se Roles, and.

I think the Bentley's are going to be popular.

Yeah, no, they already. By the way, you can get into those for twenty grand.

Yeah, and you heard it, you heard it now? Yeah, go buy him now?

All right, So let's uh, let's just we've covered our three topics. Let's just cast our eyes forward to what's coming up. You've got your coverage on the Porsches coming out.

What else have you.

Got coverage on the Porsches coming out?

We've got the Yeah, the market look for cars to buy in twenty twenty four.

Next week. Actually, I will.

Be in New York in a week, so I'm excited about that, so I'll come see you. And then I'm going to the Retromobile show in Paris, which I'll bet there are a couple auctions there.

So wait, what is different retromobile?

What is retromobile?

This is an annual car show in Paris, and I haven't been since before COVID, so I'm really curious to go. It's it's just like a beautiful old car show and it's typically held inside, which is great because it is February. Yeah, and then you know, I'm going to be looking in terms of stories. There is an interesting thing heating up

All right, very cool, I got you. I'm going to be driving the Jaguar F Pace SVR. I almost forgot about Jaguar as a brand entirely. Yeah, I know, but it'll be interesting to drive that vehicle because I'm sure it'll be great. You know, it's expensive, and when they're expensive, they're usually fun. My interest in the brand has been kind of reignited a little bit in Jag.

Yeah, why is that? I've just heard more and more about older Jags like XGS.

Doing a thing with TWR and a buddy of mine bought XJ six That is pretty cool.

And it was like almost free how much you paid for it?

And speaking of, you know, the potential growth in cars, I feel like that's a brand a lot of people have forgotten about.

And they had some really cool designs.

Oh my gosh, they had the coolest designs.

We used to have a couple E types and I would drive that E type back and forth to Sunset Tower, and it was kind of awesome because it's so low to the ground. The cabin is tiny, and if you've ever driven a goal Wing Mercedes, it's basically I have basically this same feel.

But a lot less expensive. So here's another.

If you like the going but you can't spend a few million dollars, you can get into an E type which has sort of the same feel in almost the same body shape. But yeah, I mean the ex the jags from the like eighties and nineties, they could be cool again, right.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is inappropriate, but I'm looking at you. I'm thinking about Tawny Katain. Remember Tonnyktas she was in like a white Snake video on top of a jag and she had the hair.

I gotta look her up, Tawny Katain.

That does it for this episode of Hot Pursuit. A reminder, we have a new email address so you could write into us if you have any comments or questions.

Hannah, what's the email address.

The email address is Hot Pursuit at Bloomberg dot net.

So definitely shoot us your thoughts. We'd love to hear from you.

I'm Matt Miller, and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg.