2023 Winners and Losers

I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is hot pursuit.

All right. Today on the show, as it is nearly the end of the year, we decided to do our winners and losers for twenty twenty three. We both put together kind of lists. I think they're slightly different in form, but that's good. How do you want to do this, Hannah?

You should say your winners, and I say my winners, and then you say your losers and I say my losers.

So the one winner that I kind of just thought about today when I was driving over here is South Korean automotive conglomerates that I think has made such an impact on at least American consumers in twenty twenty three that it's notable, and that is Hyundai and Kia. I'm

Do you think, Okay, that's impressive. Do you think that the interiors stand up better than like big three type vehicles on the same level in terms of quality?

Well, I don't know. In terms of quality. I am admittedly spoiled, and I like higher price cars both to drive and to buy nice things. But I think you know, at that price point. I mean, the interior seemed awesome to me. It's not too much. It's not a luxury car, and that's not what you expect of it. But they I think the layouts were elegant and I never had

Drove it, loved it was really right, So I drove it shockingly. Yeah, because we don't even we don't typically cover Kia and Hyundai on pursuits.

They're reaching on price right, they really are fifty five gran.

Yes, and they did say, hey, look we're going to kind of shoot for Rivian, We're going to kind of shoot for Volvo maybe some land Rover crossover. So they are making no bones about the fact that they're ready to fight a little bit for consumers. Yeah, and I was really pleasantly surprised. I thought it was great well.

And the logo change that Kia did wasn't this year. But I think all of these things combined just make it a huge twenty twenty three winner. The logo I think allows the brand to be more aspirational than it was because it was an eco logo and now it's super cool.

It's like nine inch nails. I know I've said that before, but I can't unsee it. But it's true. That is a case of you know, sometimes logo rebrands don't go very well, but this one I think was great.

Right, And you mentioned Genesis, like that's they make head turning cars. Just yesterday the Shopwright parking lot, I saw a green and I love any car maker that puts out of green Genesis suv and I just turned around like what's that? Yeah? Yeah, cool?

And everybody tells me that in Korea that is really the status symbol car and I don't think that's going to change. I think that's only going to increase.

And their quality has increased. I mean, the cars are fun to drive, they're affordable. The prices are rising, obviously, but you know they're still fairly affordable considering the market. So I just think Hondai Kia is just a huge winner in.

Twenty I love it, Yeah, I love it. Okay. My top winner is not going to be a surprise to anyone. It's Ferrari everybody wants to be Ferrari. Of course, you know, they are sold out until twenty twenty five. They've got wildly high margins, they've got resilient demand. They are doing pretty well in this economy, you know, where some automakers like Mercedes and BMW are really susceptible to high interest rates and sort of thing. Ferrari skims the top of that.

What I was just gonna say, So what I mean the thing is all the things you said about Ferrari could be said almost every year, right, Yes, yes, but it's a huge winner in the stock market too.

I mean, this was a challenging year and it didn't really touch Ferrari at all.

But yeah, well, I think the one thing that Ferrari's done this year that's the most notable that even non gearheads would know, is they put out that no suv.

No. No, First, Matt, I have to ask, have you driven it?

I have not driven it?

No, So what I have?

So I've neither driven it nor have I seen it in real life? Oh god, I've only seen pictures of it. Okay, right, the pictures I have seen it is horrendous.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that you come off better in person are a photograph?

Definitely in person? And that's why I make that caveat That's why they get a caby. Also, you've driven it, so you're gonna have a better idea of it in the specs alone. You know, Lamborghini put out an suv that really looks cool, but it's a disappointing powertrain. If I'm gonna be honest, Yeah, you're kidding me. You get the same powertrain in a Porsche or an Audi.

We haven't discussed this. I'm a big Ears fan. I thought it was fabulous, so fun and really captured the look Unlike I would agree with you the pro Songgua doesn't look great in the photographs that have been circulated. I do agree with you in that, but in person it looks a bit better. But I will say Lamborghini did beat it on that point that I think the Urs really captured the Lamborghini ethos better than fra.

Guy able to do. Love the Urus. I've driven it a bunch in Italy, in Germany, and they got here in New York. Yeah, I think it's the interior is sweet. All of that is great. I guess what I could say the same thing about a Cayenne a Cayenne Turbo.

You would be this amazing, You'd be that excited about it.

No meaning, here's the thing. If we're going to talk about cars that I can't now afford and probably never will be able to afford anyway, it's kind of we're talking about these myths, right and to me, there has to be something extra about a Ferrari and a Lamborghini, a Cayenne an Audi using the same powertrain. It takes a little away from me of the Urus and Lamborghini will say, well, we've made it our own. Fine. The

You know, we'll see next year how sales go. I don't disagree with you that it doesn't photograph great, but in person you've seen the meme.

Yeah, of course it looks so much like the Masta.

I didn't want to say it, but it does. But honestly, having driven it and photographed it extensively in person, it does look better in person, and it is fun to drive.

So all right, so I look forward to check right out here. Great, it's cool no matter what. Anyway, I have a winner that you previously would have disagreed with me on. But I think I'm winning you over, and I think the American buying public is being won over as well. Hybrids. I've loved hybrids since the I three and the I eight to BMW. They came with range extenders. They were electric cars that came with range extenders. I still love both of those cars, even the three, so

Yeah, you're right about that. Here's my question. Do you actually think people charge the battery of their hybrid. I know you do, But my whole.

Thing is like, they don't have to be all plug in hybrids.

Okay, so you're talking mild hybrid and plug in.

Mild hybrids are huge winners as well. Okay, I mean that much bigger winners. In fact, the CEO, I think in the CEO of BMW North America was telling me like, it's not about the plug in hybrid, because it's not about the plug for consumers who don't want full evs. They don't want to mess with that. No, they don't want to install something new in the garage. They don't want to figure out how to you know, they don't

Yeah, it's seventy eight eighty. I do think you're totally right. You know, we keep thinking maybe people will be a little altruistic or whatever, but I think there's been no movement at all in consumer readiness to inconvenience themselves. When it comes to electric vehicles, if it is at all inconvenient, they don't want it. They don't have the time, they don't have the energy, they don't have the patience. You know, it's got to be exactly a one to one switch or they don't want it.

By the way, according to topspeed dot Com twenty twenty three, Toyota Prius gets fifty seven miles.

To get to combined.

Okay, but that's amazing. You know, I drive cars they can combine.

Okay. Another winner, I'm gonna say Rolls Royce, mostly because they are this stayed, strong and steady brand. This is the year that they first brought out their first electric car, the five hundred thousand dollars Specter.

Spector is such a great sector.

It's an awesome name. It's like a James Bond movie. I've driven it. I liked it.

Oh really, I don't know. You've driven.

I went to Cape Town to drive it.

Oh oh yeah. I would give my right arm to drive it. I'm left handed, and I'm sure it's an automatic. Yeah it is.

It's more Rolls Royce than Rolls Royce that's what I would say, Like Rolls Royce is the brand that makes itself all about smooth, silent ride like a ghost. Well, the specter being electric is exactly that. You know, if there's any application for electric propulsion, it kind of I can see it in Rolls Royce and actually Rolls Royce the executives at Rolls Royce had said one hundred years ago that ultimately they believe their vehicles would go electric,

One thirty million dollar jay Z bought it.

No, no, they tell you no. The publicists sort of started a whispering campaign about that, but that's not accurate. So these multi multi million dollar one off bespoke creations that are basically designed from the ground up by ultra wealthy families is a really big business for Rolls Royce and they're doing multiple of them a year, so that's really good. Their CEO, Torsten Muller oat Vost, just announced

I mean, I don't I don't disagree. It's one of my favorite brands of all time. You know, one of my favorite cars of all time is the Ghost. I drove it first drove it in twenty ten with Torsten Amazing, and that was just around the island of Manhattan. But I already knew like this is the greatest luxury car. It's another one of those brands I probably will never be able to afford in my lifetime to buy my own new one.

I mean, I was going to say, you know, you can get an older one for pretty cheap.

I know somebody who has one, and I am dying to drive the Specter because I've read so many car magazine You know that UK car magazine that's just called Car. She they listed as I think the best electric car money can buy, like if money's no options, And obviously, because it is clearly the pinnacle of luxury Rolls Royce and Electric totally makes sense because what you want in that kind of car is boltloads of torque.

Yes, and you want no sound frankly exactly, That's exactly right. Yeah, big fan, all right.

My final third winner is Tesla, which almost pains me to say because I'm annoyed by the company for so many reasons. Oh wow, And I think the design is like long in the tooth. I think the interiors are too spartan Elon Musk he like bought Twitter like, which doesn't seem terribly intelligent to me, but especially not for forty four billion dollars. But this doc has crushed it,

Oh that was your first?

Yeah wow? And I can't even remember if I was.

No.

I think he let me like drive it around a parking lot. Ye, mainly Jason drove me up to Bear Mountain. We barely made it back. I thought, Man, I want to buy these shares. I couldn't. I can't buy shares because I'm an anchor on Bloomberg TV. Bloomberg journalists can't do that. We would. I would have to disclose it. It would be a pain and it really wouldn't work for a journalist. But if I had, I would be

I just can't get excited about the cars. That's too bad.

I mean, oh, yeah, I agree with you on that. I'm just I have two on my lists that are like from the investment.

Yeah, I was gonna say, that's like an on paper assessment.

And I'll get to the other one. But you have your last winner.

Oh, I was just gonna say, I think consumers won this year. I mean we have. This is the first year we have like dozens of evs to choose from. Every auto maker, every luxury auto maker is all about customization and making the car your own and offering more options and more packages for details. And I just think consumers have more choices than ever. Cars are safer than ever, there are more opportunities to customize and make the car feel like your own. I mean it's basically seamless now

I get what you're saying. Oh no, I disagree on a couple levels. Affordability is like out of control, like unaffordable.

Well I didn't say. I didn't say cars were affordable, No, I know, but consumers like.

What can you buy? Right if you're a regular person in terms of key of cars, even Akia is a reach in terms of new cars for the average American, right, I mean what I was For example, I drove the Nissan Araya. Recently, I thought, man, this is a sweet car, and I went to configure one and I was already got over sixty thousand dollars. Yeah, the I mean the

This might be a little controversial, but all of your points that you're just saying kind of support this philosophy that I personally have, which is I don't buy new cars. Yes, like the bigger the bigger picture here is if you want to help save the world for me, in my mind, don't buy new stuff that don't be consuming. Use what already exists, you know, and that I'm such a big believer in like, use what's already out there, don't buy, don't create a need for people to manufacture more stuff.

No, you're you're one hundred percent right. I agree, and uh, And I aim to stop buying new cars. I really do. In fact, my last car that I bought knew was the Dodge Challenger, which is like actually thirteen or fourteen years old, right.

I mean it's almost vintage by now, I don't.

Know, and it's a few more years. And I wanted all the options that I wanted. No, it's one hundred percent true. And there are a lot of cars Porsche, for example, I mean, yeah, I'd love to have an ST yeah me, but I wouldn't we all, I can't afford that, right, And I wouldn't really want base nine to eleven right now, they're amazing interesting. Really why I could is that an ego? I could buy a nine

You'd rather get an older one than a brand new? Yeah, because you get a better one.

Yeah, then you have a air cooled motor. You have you know, an old stick, you have the classic classic look. I mean, I love looking the new ones and they're amazing. I drove the Caraarer Tea, yeah, and I fell in love.

So cool.

But I could for less money, I could get a sweet old one, and that's even a better kind of keepsake. Porsche, by the way, kicks off my list of losers. Oh wow, wow, wow wow. This is another end a seat based, investment based and I mean, I don't know if it's fair, but his shares are losing. They're down fourteen percent in twenty twenty three, which is stocks are on fire. Every other major car maker in the Western world, right and in Asia. I'm not sure about Chinese public trade car

What are you seeing? I do not know.

I think they just went out too expensive. So you know, folks, fagn did a great job of selling Porsche, maybe at the ex act right time. They sold at the top. Yeah, and if you bought those shares, I mean, even if you've got syndicate in the IPO, you're just yeah, you're just treading water.

I know that has been a bit of a disappointment because you know, they they were thinking, hey, maybe we can close the gap with Ferrari. Back to my evergreen Ferrari is a winner, and it's it's only widening. And I do think Porsche is more susceptible to some of these factors like interest rate, high interest rates than Ferrari buyer of course, yes, because that hurts them. Hurts the margins.

I mean, Ferrari has like twenty percent margins. Yeah, only Tesla can do that.

Rolls, Royce and Bentley have pretty healthy margins too, Like yes.

Hire they're owned right. Yeah. Before Ferrari was spun out of Fiat, Porsia was the most profitable car maker in the world. That was our Bloomberg News tagline. We'd write Porsha the most profitable car maker in the world. Then the whole folkswaging fiasco happened, then Tesla was invented, and now Ferrari. But at the time, you know, their margins were the end of everybody, and now they're they're good, but they're not.

The last time I checked, they were still the most profitable brand at VW and the nine to eleven of course has the highest margin at Porsche, which is not for nothing. But that's a real bold statement that you're going to put them on that list.

But you know, well, I just maybe that's not fair just from an I figured I should throw in one from an investment perspective since it's flunger of course. No, yeah, no, obviously I'm a Porsche fanboy.

I mean, you don't need a disclaimer.

Had a nine to eleven and I loved it so much, and I wouldn't have sold it if I didn't have to.

They made car seats for no.

No, you know, I sold it. I bought my nine to eleven here and it was like my dream car. I had finally achieved one of my number one dreams. And then I had had to move for work to Germany. Okay, I paid to ship it over there. It was like four or five thousand dollars, and I thank goodness I did that because driving my nine to eleven on the Autobahn for five years was worth it. Ith. But then they moved me back here to New York, you know, at the end of the pandemic, and the shipping costs

Oh my gosh, I'm a freighter.

Seventy thousand dollars car back to America for you know, as a twenty fourteen nine nine to one. Ass loved it, but I'm not spending that much money to ship it back on a freighter. No, so I sold it there.

And you did you come up on the car selling it in Germany or no?

I lost a little bit, Okay, I got it for I got it used in twenty fourteen for ninety grand, which was a great deal, and then I sold it for like seventy okay, well in euros, Yeah, so maybe seventy five grand.

Sure, all right, sorry for your loss.

Yeah, I loved it. Someday when the kids go to college, graduate from college, or sometime after, that's what's your losing.

The first one I'm going to say, are just in general electric pickup trucks, because this was something at least, you know, for me that I was kind of watching for the past few years, like, oh, this would really make sense. The best selling vehicle in America for the past four decades has been a truck. It makes sense that you know, you could put him in fleets electrify him. But it is not panned out that way exactly. Yeah, it does not panned out that way at all. I mean,

Now cyber truck is like what years, four years later.

Ten they've delivered ten. Yeah, you know, Jim Farley saying he wants to focus on hybrids. It just it's the first time that I'm like, oh, the future here is uncertain with respect to the electric pickup truck.

Now, I will say my second loser was the F one fifteen Lightning, so kind of the same thing and for the same reasons, mainly because you know, Ford's lost They were gonna lose three billion this year. Now they're going to lose four and a half billion now maybe more on electric cars. They've cut their F one fifty Lightning production in half from thirty two hundred a week to sixteen hundred a week. Yeah, I shot they had like a waiting list. But I will give the caveat that.

Yes, I've driven the Ford and I thought it was great.

Because my buddy Paul Sweeney spent a week in the Lightning and he loved it. And he's a BMW fanboy so and he likes an M five, he likes a sports car, and he was a fan. But he loved it. He never he didn't ever drive a pickup truck before in his life, you know. And I don't think he'd ever driven an electric vehicle either. So he spent a week with this and he's you know, charging it at his golf club, you know. But he said it was amazing.

Yeah, I think the expense is a huge thing, you know, that they put all of this effort into electrifying something that's really big and really heavy, and you kind of have to charge a lot to earn your money back. And I don't get the sense that the guys going out to the work sites every day in Los Angeles

You know, the top of the line Lucid Air has four horse power.

Yeah, but you know that's the only car they make. And the problem is they can't increase factory output or hike prices because there isn't sufficient demand for the one car they make. They're losing money on every car they sell. They were initially valued at like fifty five billion dollars when the Saudi's bought them, and now they're worth just over five billion. They're just they're not cash flow positive. They've laid off eighteen percent of their workforce this year.

You know, especially, I mean the top of the line Lucid air costs I think two hundred and fifty grand.

Oh, I don't think it's you think the top of the line one costs two hundred oh to make? Sorry, I was gonna say not the price.

The price, the price come from to fifty.

They're losing money on everyone, and they're actually.

Losing more than four hundred thousand dollars on each one. Well if you if you average it out. I just saw a story on the Bloomberg highlighting that number. Joel Levington may have written it.

Joel. Yeah, he's so smart. I love reading his stuff. Thanks Joel for all the info. But yeah, it's just it's so they lose a.

Ton and it's to me It's always been surprising because Alan Malally I think was on the board and was part of the whole uh move into the spac Churchill four or whatever. And he is a hero, right, Alan Molally turned around Ford. I mean he was a winner at Boeing, then a winner at Ford. I mean, he's I think he was on the board of Google. He's like an automotive or manufacturing and selling genius. And they still yeah, I can't believe they whiffed on that. Now

Oh my gosh, and they still make that.

Yeah wow, oh no, and no, and Dodge makes the Hornet, oh, which is pretty cool. But you know, it's not the same as no, a Challenger Hellcat or a Jeep Cherokee track Hawk. I mean those things are right. Yeah, so these guys, if they don't turn it around, and they have an amazing motor. By the way, the Hurricane five to ten they're new straight six is awesome. Like I drove it in the in the Grand Wagon ear and I thought it was a V eight for like three days before I looked at the.

Let me, let's do you think any anybody under the age of thirty cares?

Probably not? And why not? Probably not? Well, the kids clearly don't like muscle cars. That's why the Camaro. This is I think the last year for the Camaro, you know, or next year. And anyway, the muscle the Camaro and the Mustang were becoming sports cars and the Mustang definitely is a sports car are now, so there's no more like cheap, big displacement, you know, rear wheel drive, front engine cars. Like I said, they only get thirteen miles a gallon, you know if you drive them right. So

Okay, so my last one for today, the last loser is Lotus And this is sort of with a caveat that this could also be a one to watch for next year because I do think that they have some good product. You know, I drove the Emira that was a fun sports cards kind of like a Cayman, and then the Electree there Suv. I haven't driven that yet, but I've seen that I've seen some positive reviews. So this is kind of like, maybe they have good products, but they only have like one and a half things

I was gonna say, where's the dealership network? But they do. Actually, yeah, they've did.

They opened one in China, and they're they're just they're dropping money. They had they laid off like two hundred people this year. So it's definitely not looking good. But they keep saying they've got a lot of things in the pipeline. So this is my loser slash. Well, just keep your eye on it, because who knows they do. Yeah, they're they're owned by Chili. I was just gonna say, so they've got some money.

I mean, I'm not saying that's a knock on the quality these days at all, but it is, like evs, it'll be unpopular in America. Yeah. One thing they could do is come back to F one. That would be sweet. That would be really cool, but unlikely.

But they need to make they need to make some more cars anyway. Yeah, that's I mean, old cool, old brand. It's a shame they can't get it together.

Yeah, but you're right, letus is a loser. All right. That's all we have time for this week. But we are going to record another one next week, right, Yes, we are all right. I am looking forward to that, Hannah waits. Until then, I'll be following you, uh and likewise on Instagram? What is your Hannah Elliott?

It's Hannah Elliott XO.

I'm Matt Miller nineteen seventy three, and what have you got coming up.

So the nine to eleven st review finally came out today, so you can read that online at Bloomberg dot com. And then next week I'm going to have a recap of the best cars that I drove in all of twenty twenty three, so we can talk about those and maybe some predictions for twenty twenty four.

That's excellent. I'm Matt Miller, I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg