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News, breaking news. Here the former President Trump. He has been ordered to pay three hundred and sixty four million dollars for fraud in a New York civil trial. The former president also barred from running his New York company for three years, his sons have been barred from serving as New York executives for two years, and the defendants of the case have lost on all claims in that New York civil fraud trial. Let's now bring in Bloomberg News reporter Greg Farrell, who joins us on the phone,
and also Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosso. Greg I do want to.
Start with you?
This was this verdict widely expected, especially that three hundred and sixty four million dollar figure in general.
Yes, okay, given that the judge had found in favor of the age a couple of months ago before the actual trial, and some of the comments and observations that he made leading up to it, it was clear that who's going to hit him fairly hard?
And what do you make of the like the put the scale in the of the defeat on this for us, for Trump, because as we know, the president is a former president excuse me, has moved much of his life to Florida at this point, So does it matter that the state of Yeah, go ahead.
A the age was seeing a lifetime ban. He only got three years, so that actually went in his favor and his sons. They sought a five year ban against running or being an office for a company in New York, only two years, so that was relatively light on that front. However, the businesses, it's not just as easy as you know, carrying up the paperwork and then reconcept, you know, filing
to establish the same businesses in Florida. That's something that has not been resolved yet is whether or not Trump will have to as the business cerpertificates will be canceled, whether or not these properties will have to go into liquidation. So that's not clear from today's ruling. That's that's a big you know, to be determined.
Okay, Well, I want to bring in Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grossa, who's got a thick stack of paper covering the keyboard right now, and she's made her way through quite a bit of it.
June, what are you learning?
I have not made my way through quite a bit of it. I just went to the back. I went to the back to look at what he actually what he actually ordered. What Greg said is absolutely true. What I think the worst that could have happened is what they call the corporate death penalty, which didn't happen here. So as Greg said, you know, he is not allowed to do business for three years, his sons for two. And I think I'm looking for the part that I
found interesting. Now there's a there's already a judge in place as an independent monitor. That judge is going to continue as an independent monitor. And also the court is ordering an independent director of compliance be installed at the Trump organization who shall be responsible for ensuring good financial and accounting practices, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And
the court mentioned that there was an appeal. Trump was making an appeal from some of his findings about the license of the company, and he said that you know I can't find it right.
Now, be fair.
I just want to paint the picture for everybody listening right now, literally a stack of.
What jims it's ninety ninety pages, ninety eight, ninety two. Not to lie, it's only ninety two.
I'm impressed with both of you have been able to come up with at this point, Emily take it away.
What does this mean for the election. I'm really curious what if there's any implications on this results on question?
I don't think so. I mean this unless he was going to, you know, use his own money for the election, and this will stop him from uh doing that. There really is nothing in this having to do with the election. I mean, the case is that you have to look
at for the election or more. The criminal case is one that's been set now for next month in New York, the hush money case, and of course the case in DC that now the Supreme Court is deciding whether or not to put us have a stay on that decision and so put a hold on that case while he appeals it. So, I mean, those are the ones that are really have anything to do with his And it's not so much that it would stop him from runny. It's just that people would be interested and perhaps it
would matter to people if he is criminally convicted. This I don't think, you know, so much matters to be But they look at it and they think it's the Trump organization, right, you know, they look at it. It's about okay, he overstated his income, and the Attorney General said, well, you can't do that because that's a business records violation, and you know, you have to disgorge the money that you got as a result of your lies about your
net worth. So I don't think people really that will affect them as much.
I understand that you and and we've seen polling that that sort of shows that the criminal cases are certainly more important, Greg, Greg Farrell, I want to bring you back in her Bloomberg News reporter Greg Farrell that said everything that June said, I understand at the same time, it costs a lot of money to run for president. Yes, and it costs a lot of mone And this is a three hundred and sixty four million dollars fine. Here is this real money we're talking about, Like.
Yeah, this is real money.
He's gonna have to pay this.
I mean, like because we're so used to throwing a term billionaire around. Yeah, like everybody he has this unlimited pockets. But no, And my colleague Arett Larsington an excellent article about three weeks ago pointing out like some of the dire fiscal straits, you know, in terms of cash access to real cash that trum pass. He might have to liquidate some of these buildings just to come up with this money. It's not like he has like he's claimed
that he has four hundred million in cash available. But you know, as we know, just because he claims it doesn't mean it's necessarily.
So he's going to appeal this though, Greg, we have no doubt he's going to appeal it. Then he'll have to either put up the money plus five percent or get a bond, secure a bond.
It's tough, like good luck to him getting a bond. It's well known in that community.
So well, you talk a little bit about that, Greg, the challenge there, talk a little bit about that.
Just that you know, he'd be a difficult guy to go, you know, to give a bond to. He just does not have a good reputation in that community. Yes, he can appeal it, but you can't just use an appeal as an excuse to stop, you know, making a payment, put it off for several years. So, as June pointed out, he'd have to post some of that money, you know, a good chunk of it I think upfront in escrow.
And also let's not forget he is appealing the eighty three million dollar e Gene Carrol verdict, So the same thing there, Hill and the last time, the last verdict, the fifteen million dollar. I think it was the first Gene Carol verts. He put up the money himself. He put up the money himself. He put up that plus five percent June.
Do we know if the former president is very good at raising money? Yes, very very good at raising money. He's in fact, he used some of his legal challenges to raise money from supporters.
Is he a big boom?
It has been, Yeah, thank you, Greg, it has been.
Is he allowed June to actually use that money to pay these spines?
Do we know?
I don't think he's allowed to pay the fines with it?
Okay? Sorry, go ahead, right?
He had not? Those are campaign those are funds for like he could pay for his legal representation. But he cannot pay like the damage's reward. That's like off limits.
What about like funding from like a super pac for example, Could that money go for this?
I don't think it can. But but the thing is that it's all the super pack stuff is very hazy and things aren't enforced as much as they should be. So but I don't think you can pay from a super pack either.
I mean, I guess Greg, what you can tell I'm getting at is is is Trump going to have to open up.
His wallet here?
Yeah? Yes, and I think so absolutely. And that's that's the real real pain here is the judge came up at the high end of what the ag asked for. I think she asked three hundred and seventy million, and he got like, yeah, as you said, three hundred and sixty four.
So what's Trump's number one priority here? What is he doing in the next few hours, in the next few days.
Well, that's a good question. I think he's probably going to have a press conference at Mara a Lago. I think that's already been scheduled, and he's going to talk about this. What he will say, I think is what he has been saying in the many press conferences that he held all during this New York Attorney General's trial. He's going to say that this is a witch hunt that Letitia James has been after him. Letitia James campaigned
on getting Trump. And also he's going to say that the people in this case, like the Deutsche Banks, the lenders, had no complaint here, and in fact, they didn't there weren't any you know, lenders testifying, Oh, we feel really bad because we got swindled. So they said, well we might have charged more. So he's going to say everyone was very happy. Trump is a brand. It was, so it's going to be the same thing. I can't imagine anything.
Different, he Gregor.
I want to bring you back in here because one thing that keeps crossing my mind is the way that the former president's sons were implicated in this as well, and that they have been actually banned as well from doing certain things.
What do we know.
About the way that the Trump family is affected by this ruling today.
Well, according to the trial and the findings of fact, you know, the sons in particular, not only unlike Ivanka, who was severed from this and is not part of this in any way, the two sons were helping to run the business for many years until Trump became president, and then in fact we're running the business on his
behalf when he was president. And that's in particular where a couple of the charges involving insurance fraud came up that they signed off on and were actively involved in presenting numbers to the insurance companies that were not, you know, accurate. They were overstated.
You know, here's I found the part that I it's about the prior cancelation of the business life licenses. And the judge writes that there was partial summary judgment and the Appellate Division First Department has stayed this relief the cancelation of business light licenses, penning the final disposition. He said, however, as going forward, there'll be a two tiered oversight, the independent Monitor and the Independent Director of Compliance of major
activities that could lead to fraud. Cancelation of the business license is no longer necessary, so he basically took that back.
Hey, I just want to take a break and remind everyone where we are right now, if you're just now joining us. The former President Donald Trump and his real estate company suffered a major defeat in New York's civil fraud suit over his inflated asset valuations. This after a judge barred the former president from running any business in the state for three years and ordered the return of three hundred and sixty four million dollars in illegal profits.
That verdict Friday by Justice by Justice Arthur Engron in Manhattan, is a threat to Trump's real estate empire and is the latest legal setback as he campaigns to return to the White House. We should notice two eldest sons, Donald Trump Junior and Eric Trump, were also found liable and barred from being officers of a company in New York for two years. I want to bring back Bloomberg News
reporter Greg Ferrell joining us on the phone. Also, we're joined by Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosso here in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. Greg, as we take a step back and think about all of the challenges that the former president faces legally, can textualize this one for us and where this sort of falls on the uh, just just how bad this is for him and his empire?
Well, it's very bad for his business empire, okay, you know, and it's more serious I think than a lot of us like presumed because criminal is worse than civil, that the real danger to him was all these criminal cases. But this is, you know, turning out to be far more damaging, I think than many of us realized, you know, both financially in terms of the public relations hit, in terms of the exposureusiness practices being laid out in such
clear detail. And yes, we all knew about Donald Trump, you know, certainly by the time he became president afterwards, but this is for all the world to see factual findings about the way he operated his business for you know, it was only a decade that came under review by the ags, obvious, but exactly much longer.
Greg, we heard your phone ringing. There's a lot going on back there. Yeah, we're gonna I'm gonna let you go, always ringing.
Thank you, sources, sources.
And not thank you enough for joining us. It's Bloomberg News reporter Greg Farrell joining us on this breaking news this Friday afternoon. Still what with us is Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosser. We're not letting her go quite yet. We're also going to bring in Bloomberg Politics contributor Geenie Shanzeno, who joins us. Genie, I want to I want to go to you for the politics part of this. Emily asked a great question a few minutes ago about the
political effects of this. Does it matter to President Trump supporters that this ruling has come down in the civil fraud trial?
Yeah, I think the fair answer is, we really don't know the evidence we have so far is that on all of these indictments and trials, he has been fundraising, and as we all know from looking at the polls, his support has only grown. However, we are now getting I mean, this is all unturned territory politically, but now that we are seeing these verdicts come down, it is possible that this does negatively impact him, even with his
core supporters. Because we don't have any test of this kind of thing in American history, we really don't know. We do have some polls which say that if he's convicted of a crime that people will not vote for him for president, we don't know if that extends to something,
you know, civil like this. So I don't really have a great answer for you on this except to say I can't imagine a world and I hope I am not being Pollyennish, in which somebody being convicted and indicted this much does have a negative impact on their chances
of being elected president. So I think a fair thing to say this is not good news for him in any way, but especially politically, because it's not just this trial, but the cumulative effect of all of these trials, the criminal ones which we know are just starting in a few weeks in New York and then continuing around the country to get the four criminal ones in and of course the civil ones are just the beginning.
So I just have to add to this. So he went this week to He's been going to a lot of these different court hearings. As he went when the judge, Judge Mrchahn, said that set the trial date for his New York hush money payment trial for next month. So he went to one in Florida where it was an in camera hearing, so it was just the defense team with the judge Aileen Cannon, and he decided to go and before that he alerted everybody. He said, I'm back in court again. He sent out an context, I'm back
in court again. I think he's doing well being back in court. I think he's campaigning the from the courthouse steps. He's convinced his supporters that this is all a witch hunt, that for example, classified documents, Well they didn't they didn't go after Joe Biden for classified documents. Why are they going after me for classified doctors?
Special Council's report last week?
Yes, but you know, right, But I'm just saying I think that he does very well, because he campaigns from the courthouse and everyone picks up his the stuff that he says, where as if he was on the road at a rally, everyone's not going to pick it up. But when he comes outside the courthouse and says it's very unfair, you know, for example, when he did it this week, when Judge Merschaun set that trial date, he said, this is not fair, this is not justice. So I
think he does very well. If there's a criminal verdict, I think it might be different, But a civil verdict, this is really beyond most people. I think, Oh, he lied about how much money he made. I don't think most people see that as something as bad as a criminal conviction, because it's hard to understand. First of all, it's hard to understand it's about business record.
Right, and I think perhaps people might I've heard people say the same thing about the covering up the hush money paid to Stormy Daniels, for example, like that, I think, you know, I've heard the comments that some people might find that one frivolous versus the actual criminal charges, because.
Also in that case those are normally misdemeanors, and Alvin Bragg didn't want to bring a case with just misdemeanors, so he upped it to felonies by hooking it sort of to federal charges of election against election law. So I mean, that's the problem with that case. It's not just Michael Cohen's going to testify, because you know, the prosecutors are used to having witnesses with problems testifying, But it's because of the legal theory behind it that that's a problem. I think that case.
Hey, Jennie, come on in here and weigh in on what June said. The idea that the former president is energized by campaigning in quotes on the stairs of the courthouses versus being out there on the campaign trail.
Do you agree with that?
You know, I think he knows he needs the money to fund all these cases, and he has been fundraising off of this. But I still go back to the fact that we are in a situation where people are going to have to make a choice if both Joe
Biden and Donald Trump are the nominees. Between the two of them, neither of them are beloved, certainly, but the reality is is this race is going to be won or lost in the moderate independent middle and six or seven swing states where the Bloomberg Morning Console poll has been doing their research, and it is really difficult for me to imagine that this is a selling point that will help get Donald Trump more votes than he had
in twenty twenty when he lost to Joe Biden. So you know, in the short term, yes, he's going to try to fundraise off of it. He's going to try to make the best of a situation. But by no stretch of the imagination do I believe that this is a you know, a ticket into the presidential nomination or the presidency itself. I mean, this is a man fighting for his life, his businesses, and the future of his children in courts around the country in both civil and
criminal cases. And I am hard plasked to believe that the American public in the end views this as a selling point and a jumping off to the presidency. That's why we heard Nikki Haley say today, and she's been screaming from the rooftops that this man brings chaos and people didn't want it in twenty twenty, and I'm hard pressed to believe that they will want it, or more of them will want it in twenty twenty four, which
will put him over the top. So does it help his base and potentially you know, get in the nomination. You know, maybe, but let's not forget that the nomination's likely going to be wrapped up even before the trial starts in the Alvin braggcase that you and June were just talking about.
What does the Republican Party make of this? What do you think how are they going to come out and react to this news?
You know, if history is any guide, they will support Donald Trump. The statement we just heard from his lawyer about a witch hunt will probably be at the top of their lips.
You know.
The stunning thing is, besides Nicky Haley, very few Republicans in elected office have come out and said anything about this case in particular, except that Donald Trump is being victimized by the New York courts. So I suspect that will happen. And to Tim's point, I think you echo
what we all feel is that this is exhausting. Nobody quite can keep track even when you watch it daily, as to what in case we're talking about when, and you know, this is going to have an impact, a cumulative effect on him in the polls, if not in the short term, in the long term because it is utterly chaotic, in Nikki Haley's words, and exhausting for voters.
Genie, I have some not so great news for you. November is still many months away at this point. Oh, don't say it, okay, Hey, really appreciate both of you joining us. That, of course is Bloomberg News Legal analyst June Grosso here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Also with us this afternoon, Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie shan Zeno.
We have with us right now. One of the reporters who has been covering this trial, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Manhattan Federal Courthouse and Legal Enterprise reporter, joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Pat, good to see you, Thanks for coming in. I know there's a ton of news today. This trial ended a while ago, right, It's been some time that we've been waiting for this decision.
Yeah, and we also suffered through thirteen weeks of trial testimony, so it's been very long. It started in October and it went for weeks and weeks and weeks, and they finished with testimony in mid December, and then the judge camp had everyone come back after Christmas holidays for closing arguments.
We expected this was going to come out earlier. And then there was a wrinkle in the case where the judge found out that one of the witnesses proffered by Donald Trump, the former Trump Organization financial officer Alan Weiselberg. He understood that their DA was actually considering prosecuting him for perjury.
I just want to bring a headline forgive me, you have not seen this yet, but the Trump fraud verdict exceeds four hundred and fifty million dollars with interest, this according to the Attorney General. What's your response to that?
Well, I mean, this is a penalty that's really significant for Trump. He's always apparently it's affecting him in the pocketbook where it hurts the most for him. This is a lot of money, and it's a lot of money personally, he's on the hook for more than three hundred and fifty million, as well as his sons are going to have to pay. And well, the ag, the New York Attorney General, had sought a ban from working in New York State for twenty five years for life. For him,
it's three years. But the guy you know, three years is three years, so it's all very significant and with accrude penalties in all the extras added up, it's a lot of money.
Where does it stand to in the context of other cases and other fines, like can you put this into context? How much money? You know, four hundred and fifty million dollars with interest the other three hundred and sixty four million dollars. How does that compare to other cases throughout history.
Well, we just it's a pretty huge rulane for a family company, that is, you know, the guy prides himself as being this great billionaire who's been a successful businessman, who boasted when he was testified that he has four hundred million dollars in cash. Now, I don't know whether that number was in the judge's mind when he when he was trying to factor how much money to penalize Trump. It's obviously significant as well if you think that this comes on the heels. Just a couple of weeks ago,
we have the verdict against Donald Trump. He's been ordered by a Manhattan federal jury to pay eighty three point three million in the Egen Carol sexual assault case and defamation case. This is all adding up and it's a and Trump obviously was very concerned about this case because he attended it a lot.
Okay, a question that I'm getting over and over again from people who are watching, people who are listening, is they hear about big figures in cases all the time that end up not ultimately being paid because they go on appeal. We just had David Weston on with us, who who said that, well, in New York is unique in the sense that he actually does have to put
up this money even if he appeals this. Talk to me about what happens moving forward and when the or a president will actually have to pony up this what more than four hundred million dollars at.
This point, Well, what will happen in a process by appeal he'll have to put up He'll have to get a bond. It's almost like a bail bond thing, but it's a bond to basically ensure that the money gets put like in an escrow account, so it'll get paid and it won't get furthered away. But what's interesting, but some of those other verdicts that get reduced is those
are damages verdicts. You know, you think a jury says this person's gotten injured by two hundred million dollars in a car accident, and it gets reduced down to maybe thirty million or twenty million. This is different because this is disgorgement. This is penel financial binds. The judges found
that he improperly profited. So if you think about it, he sold that Fairy Point golf course in the Bronx made a substantial sum of money, hundreds of millions of dollars in profit, so that was one of the things they cited. He sold the old post office in Washington
and made a substantial profit. The ages argue that had he not gotten these great terms and lied about his finances, he would have never gotten these great find lending terms from lenders like Deutsche Bank, and then he would have never been able to buy it, let alone be able to flip it over and make it into a luxury you know, like the hotel industry. And that's what this is different about. It's not like a damage is where
a jury verdict gets reduced. This is a judge finding this is improper profits.
To what extent is the ruling of victory for New York Attorney General Leticia James.
It's a huge victory because I mean having attended the trial, he was very angry with her, and every day he would come out that he attended the trial, he'd have a little mini press conference where he'd denounce her. He would say that she should be looking for migrants and not prosecuting bringing this lawsuit, and there were lots of
mean exchanges and there was no love lost. Apparently it is a victory for someone who who says that she wants to hold Trump responsible for what the fraud he did on the lenders and insurers.
Okay, pat contextualize this for me, because as of a few weeks ago, the president, the former president, excuse me, faced ninety one felony.
Charges in four separate cases.
They range from conspiring to defraud the US and his efforts to overturn the twenty twenty election, this one to falsify business records, and then also to cover up hush money paid to an adult film actress. So that's sort of the boiler plate, right, Contextualize this one for us and where that kind of falls in the other legal challenges that he faces.
Well, many legal experts I've spoken to is you know, if you think about Donald Trump and who he says, he is his whole foundation of his being and his resume is based as this basically five star New York City developer who brings you these luxury as his son called them, sexy buildings. Do you know Trump Tower and forty Wall Street, these marquee properties that are you know, he is the consummate New York real estate baron. And now he's had this huge, basically take down by the
New York Attorney General. But yesterday he's ordered to go to trial in March in five weeks on those thirty four accounts of falsifying business records. And you know, it's not been a particularly good week. And you can think of it that way. Many people who told me it says what Donald Trump really cares about is what's his bank account and what's in his wallet, and this is hitting him in the wallet.
We talked a lot about what this means reputationally for Trump in terms of will he be able to, you know, win the election with all of this news. But I'm curious, from your perspective, legally, what does this mean. Is there any sort of ruling that would legally bar him from actually running for president and actually taking office because all of these headlines, they don't seem to actually be like preventing him from running and potentially winning an election and then joining office.
One thing you have to remember is as if he gets wins reelection, he could potentially pardon himself and basically dismiss those indictments, the federal indictments, So the three federal cases, the DC federal case, the Washington in Washington.
The.
Florida case, so he could dismiss those cases. The Manhattan DA's case that was the hush money case. He couldn't do that. So that still affects his freedom and his peril of possibly being convicted. And if he goes to trial, this trial could take about apparently could bring us a verdict in mid May. And if you think about that, and he could get convicted. Some people said to me that he'd be a first time offender. And what a
judge sent in hims to prison. It's like one in a third to four years for each count, depending on what the judge hears. And then you know, possibly Georgia, whatever happens in there in the Fulton County Georgia case. But this is one of those cases. He could never pardon himself. Because a state charges, you cannot there's no federal oversight.
Pat we have about twenty seconds. What's the next thing that you're watching?
Well, and next thing, I'm getting ready for the Trump hush money case. So and we will expect an appeal out of this ruling today.
Okay, And what would dollar figures look like for the hush money case.
It's not a penalty. It would be he could be convicted and go to prison.
And that's a New York state, that's.
Inhattan State Supreme Okay, you guys might call it for jury duty.
That's a good point. And you were going to be busy too, so we really appreciate your time. That is, of course. Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg, Manhattan Federal Courthouse and Legal Enterprise reporter, joining us here.