When Finance Is a Weapon of War

Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern Time on the Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg clovel News. Well, a story on the Bloomberg about the omicron variant being much deadlier than the seasonal flu, why that's important to remember, and also why it's also important to remember that there will be a

next pandemic. It's the subject of a new book by Bill Gates, by the way, and that's something that's highlight in the Pursuit section of the current new issue Bloomberg Business Week Magazine. We talked about it with Chris Rouser. That will be in our weekend show. Well. Dr Andy Pecos is professor of molecular microbiology and immunology at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Bloomberg School of Public Health is supported Michael R. Bloomberg, founder

of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Pekosh joins us once again on the phone from Baltimore. Dr Pekosh, How are you doing well? How are you all? We're doing well. Carol and I were talking earlier about the mass mandates being lifted in different parts of the country, and indeed it's something that's gonna be happening in New York. Friends texting me in the last few days that their students, theirs, their kids are no longer masked at school, and my

friends are pretty appreciative of that. Um. When you take a look at where the United States is, how would you describe it? Well, you know, we're we're. Everything is trending in the really good directions. In some parts of the country, case numbers are still a little bit higher from my taste, at least to be able to relieve a lot of the public health interventions. But everything is looking like it's moving in the right direction. No new variants that are of high concern are coming down the

pipeline at least immediately. So I think we're in a really good place right now for most of the population, I guess I would say the exception would be, you know, the people who are highly susceptible to severe COVID, the elderly, those with OFMS immune systems. Those are populations we still need to monitor carefully because COVID can be such a severe disease in those populations. But for most people, things are trending in the right direction, but we do need

to I'm sorry, ahead, well, I was just wondering. You know, you said case numbers are still too high for you to be comfortable. What is that number that you'll that you'd like to see for for you to say, Okay, wait a second, We're no longer in a pandemic. This is now endemic because we are still seeing tons of thousands of new cases every day exactly. And I think you have to look locally to see how your spread

is locally. Um one good parameter rate is if your positive test positivity rate is about two per cent or so, that really tells you that two things are going on. Case numbers are low and you've got enough testing going on to really be confident that you're detecting a lot of the cases out there. Uh. What's interesting too is

and I do think about this. As I said, I was like perplexed landing in Chicago Tuesday night, getting into a hotel outside of Chicago, and nobody had masks on because they just pulled the mask mandate And to say Dr peckash, I was like, you know what to do? I had my mask on, I left it on. I felt awkward. People were like, oh, keep mask like and nobody else had a mask on. Um, but I I have to rely on my community to do the right thing,

and we know that that unfortunately, our community hasn't. So what's your advice to us increasingly as we go forward with this and and what are the numbers that you're gonna be watching that we don't. Is it just a case of an uptick of cases that will remind us that you know, it's still not completely safe. Well, you know, the CDC recently updated their guidance from mask wearing, which is what really uh precipitated all of these mandates being relieved.

You know, I think number one, you should always go with how you feel and your conscience and if you're not feeling comfortable going out without masks, please mask up. I still mask up when I go out, uh to two groceries, shopping in other places as well too. I think there's nothing wrong with masking up. Um, Wearing a mask for yourself is still good for protecting you, and I think that's something everybody should feel comfortable doing if

they want to. Um, you know, I'm hoping that that that what we're going to see now is that COVID becomes a bit more seasonal, So as we get to warmer weather, it will be less and less likely that we see significant surges of cases. So that will really be in a period of time now where we can be a little bit more um comfortable that conditions won't be right for large surges of cases. So okay, well

let's talk about those conditions. Um. You know. Carol mentioned Bill Gates's new book that's reviewed in the upcoming issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine. We've talked a lot about the idea of the next pandemic, But before we get to the next pandemic, I want to think about the next variant, and I wanted us to have a realistic set of expectations, because I remember how I felt in June of one when I went to a wedding and it seemed like COVID was absolutely gone and we had

turned this corner. And then you know, a few days later, boom, delta variant. We get out of the delta variant. Boom, it's the omicron variant. Um, how should we be? How should we be planning for our own future? It's just just in terms of risk taking and and and setting expectations. So you know, I'm not slapped across the face again, right, Yeah. I think what stars KVID two has shown us is when it entered the population two years ago, it was a virus that could spread well, but it really wasn't

optimal for infecting people. And what you've seen now, maybe with a macron as the pinnacle, is this virus really adapt to be able to infect and spread the human population. So it will be here. We will see continuing variants emerge because um, that's what viruses do. They mutate, and if they mutate in the way that makes them better at infecting people, then they will become the dominant virus. But the most important thing is we have now vaccines

that induce population immunity. Now that's different from her immunity. Population immunity just means that we're gonna dampen disease severity. We're gonna damp in numbers of cases a bit, and we're gonna be able to reach an area where we can control the numbers of cases through vaccination and treatments

and avoid those severe cases. And that's where I hope we're going to be, particularly in a few months, because as more treatments come on board, UM, as people get us hopefully little bit more comfortable with vaccines UM and taking them UM, we will be able to get all of this population immunity together. That's going to really minimize the threat of severe COVID for most of us. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg

Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, as we just talked about the world increasingly sanctioning Russia following that invasion of Ukraine. We just talked about the US adding sanctions to Vladimir Putin's press secretary, limiting the travel of nineteen others in terms of Russians and forty seven of their families. So the news continues to flow. Bloomberg's Nick Boddam writing about how the crackdown on Russia's economy that

could have consequences that last decades. Nick Wadham's Bloomberg News foreign policy reporter, he'd us on the phone from Washington, d C. Nick, you know, the headlines continue to come in terms of moves by the US, UH and other nations around the world going against Russia. At this point, tell us about your reporting and why this may stay

with us much longer than we all anticipate. Well, I think the concern I heard from folks on the outside and also a couple of people on on the inside of the administration is essentially that the US is ramping up so hard and fast on Russia right now, um, in response to the invasion that they fear there's not really like a longer term plan for Okay, then, what like if you if you sanction all the folks around Putin and all these companies, what are the what are

the conditions under which you actually unwind these sanctions and what are they actually trying to achieve? Is it just purely about punishment or is it trying to induce some sort of behavior, and the problem sanctions theorists will tell you is that if you're trying to duce behavior with crushing sanctions like this and often only just has the opposite effects. So it's a concern about not really understanding or thinking through what the consequences of all these sanctions

might end up be. Right, we understand the means in terms of going after Vladimir Putin in Russia, Right, we see that with the sanctions we don't necessarily know what the end game is here, certainly when it comes to the US UH and NATO allies. What are some of the things that are being talked about that maybe need to be put before President Putin is saying here's what

we need you to do. Well, I mean, this is a great challenge because, of course, obviously the first thing they would say is, okay, what we need you to do is reverse the invasion, which he's obviously showing no signs that he's going to do. So at that level, you know, it does feel like we're caught in this bind of wanting to do something, wanting to respond in some way, but then you know there's this concern that

actually the response doesn't achieve the desired end. But the question that I'm really trying to dive into now is, you know, these lower level folks, so the oligarchs around Putin, you know what what needs to happen with them? What do they need to do that it do they need to publicly disavow Putin does? What are the things that they can do that are actually in their control to

get these sanctions lifted? And so far I haven't seen a clear articulation of what the US actually wants from them, And I think you're going to start to see that over the next little while, a better articulation of of what they're actually going to need to do. But at the moment, the administration is not saying what it's asking

them to do. If anything, Nick, one of the things that jumped out for me and your latest reporting, and I think about this when we're dealing with UM leaders of countries, UM that especially in more troubled areas of the world, that there that we need to think about face saving measures that that is important to them in terms of their position. How do we need to think about that when it comes to President Putin specifically. Well, it was interesting because Jen suck he was actually asked

about that very issue today at the briefing. You know, is there some sort of face saving measure that Russia could could do? Uh? And her suggestion was, you know, it's way too early to talk about face saving measures because this this military campaign is so intense. But but the impression I get from speaking to folks on the inside of the administration is that yes, they are going to or they say they are going to start doing

that at some point. The question is whether Vladimir Putin will see these US actions as something that gives him the opportunity to do that. I mean, I mean, the US is saying, listen, we're not going to commit troops on the ground. But you know, Vladimir Putin doesn't see this as a substitute for war. He sees it as an element for war. So then that provokes the bigger question. Okay, he may respond, not necessarily with financial retaliation or whatever

it might be, but something more kinetic. And I think I think you're starting to see a sense that that the US is going to need to prepare for that. Well, that's what I was curious too, And I'm thinking about sanctions in general. I mean, the world has ramped up especially. I feel like this week in terms of financial sanctioning UM and whether it's stocks, the Russian market, the rouble the oligarchs, um, are we getting to the end of that In terms of financial sanctioning, well, I think there

is more they can do. I mean, the question of whether it works or not, that's one thing. I mean, a lot of the oligarchs are the folks who were named today had previously been sanctions, So it's not like it's going to have any real new impact on them unless the U S is it's promised, really goes after their assets in a way that it hasn't done before.

But there is obviously the energy sector, and that is the big sort of untouched area where the US has has so far decided it is not going to to sanction Russia because of the fear about the blowback on the US market. But based on conversation I and some of my colleagues are having with officials and folks on the outside, it does appeal here that there's a growing movement towards figuring out some way to squeeze the Russian energy sector to really try to break the back of

Vladimir Putin's calculs again will it work. There's not a lot of evidence. I mean you've looked Lebron, Syria, Cuba. There's no real evidence that their behavior has changed. But this is what the administration. Hey just got Nick, about thirty seconds left here. So as you lay out, you know, we've got to be you know, tell President Booten kinda what we need him to do. Are those conversations of going on inside the White House are among the President's cabinet.

I mean we're just you know, played back some sound he's meeting with them right now earlier from conversations is no, they are not at that point yet of telling Bloodin what he needs to do beyond all team the invasion. Hopefully we'll get a better sense of the next few days. All right, Well, really appreciate the update. Nick Waddams. He is our foreign policy reporter at Bloomberg News. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes

Tim Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. In this week's new issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, it's a special report. By the way, the magazine it's all about the war in Ukraine, and the magazine specifically taking a deep dive into the tactic of using finance as a weapon. So let's get to it. Bloomberg News Financial Investigation senior writer Stephanie Baker on the phone from London along with Business Week editor Joe Weber here in our Bloomberg Interactor Broker studio in

New York. UM. I talked to Stephanie earlier. I've already said this is Tim and I were saying favorite story of the week. It is a really good one and one of those ones where you know, you just are thankful for having colleagues who have been around and covering things for for a bit because, um, as she writes the story, Stephanie has been a close watcher of Russia

for for decades now. Um. And to rewind the clock here, you know, coming out of the wall coming down, all of arcs amassed a whole bunch of of of assets basically, and we're able to basically become billionaires in the process. And we've long seen the repercussions of that. And a key way that sort of the the US and the UK and the EU are attempting to sort of fight back to Putin's aggression is by targeting some of those

um olive arcs UM. So, so stephaniely walk us through how that's played out so far and how how it could play out yet. Well, the sanctions keep coming fast and furious. The UK and the US just announced additional aligarcs UM that have been sanctioned. The UK UM targeting to prominent Russians UM billionaire Alisher Usmanoff and um uh Igor Shuvalov, who is a former government official but he hEDS the state he's the chairman of the State Bank

bb UM. And then the US did the same, sanctioning Usmanoff and a string of others, including their family members in many cases. So UM, the US going further trying to put pressure on them UM. And you know, I think we're to just see more coming UM as they work their way through UM the list and try to figure out, you know what, what's the best way to continue to put pressure on Putin. There are many more on the list, you know, people billionaires who for instance,

met with Vladimir Putin when he called them in last week. UM. So I would expect further steps from both the UK, from both London and Washington. So London is an interesting one here because London Grad long been a nickname and UK been a little slower on on targeting and sanctioning them than than the EU and US. Um. And what do you make of that coming from London? Yeah, it's it's been a real um. You know, they talk a

tough game the UK, but they've just failed to follow through. Um. And I think you know, as you said, it's been nicknamed London Grad because so many Russians love to come here and buy mansions and send their kids to schools here. Um. But you know, the legal climate is making it I think a little bit more complicated and difficult, particularly post

Brexit um for the UK government to move. And it's surprising that they didn't have a lot of this prepared because they had been warning for so long about this invasion that they hadn't done the ground mark beforehand to try to target some of these oligarchs. Um. You know the moves that they announced just tonight. Um. Okay, there are two additional oligarchs that everyone has been saying, why

aren't these guys sanctioned? Um? But that's a still a small step compared to what the European Union has done, which has been much more aggressive UM and sanctioning, you know, triple the number that the UK has, and seizing yachts um. You know it's the French seized the yachts of the CEO of Rossness State, the state backed oil company UM today and um uh usman Off, the billionaire who was sanctioned by both the UK and the US today. His yacht was sanctioned by the Germans in Hamburg. So UM.

You know, Europe has been a surprise player here in terms of its aggressive moves. Stephanie, you what's great about talking to you is that and you write this in your story that you witness the collapse of the Soviet Union back you were in Prague. You are a college or recent college graduate. Um. What is it that maybe we've misread um as a world because there was so much hope there, you know, hope at that time. But

here we are today. Yeah, I mean, you know, thirty years a sort of as a business journalist, I reported on it Western companies trying to get into Russia. UM. You know, obviously there's a whole sordid story of you know, how the Russian state went about privatization and created all of these oligarchs to begin with, and you know, huge

problems in the way that we've done. UM. But you know now what you have is and I think it's really sad, um that there are a lot of you know, UM, all this all this effort to try to integrate Russia and the global economy and create a sort of functioning business sector has been completely destroyed, you know, in a in a week, um, because of the actions of Putin.

And you know it'll be very hard to recover that, UM, But it's the only way, you know, because the NATO does not want to be engaging in a direct war with another nuclear power, they have to use these sanctions as their only tool, um, really to try to force Putin to stand down, to try to isolate him starving of the funds he needs to wage this war. All Right,

We're gonna leave it on that note. UM. There's so much in this story, and there's so much in the coverage in the magazine this week, and Stephanie, we know you've been really busy, so thank you for for finding time for us once again. Stephanie Baker, she's financial investigation senior writer at Bloomberg News. On the phone from London. Check out her story and the other stories that are in the magazine this week. You can find it on the Bloomberg at Bloomberg dot com and on newsstands and

our thanks to Joe Webber, editor a Business Week. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. So another of our most read stories on the Bloomberg Today, how has to do with indexing major index providers officially cutting Russian assets from their engauges. So really ratcheting up the pressure on exchange traded fund industry already facing an extraordinary stress test.

We know what happens? Then. Carolina Wilson is senior Emerging markets reporter for Bloomberg News. She joins us on the phone from New York. Carolina, how does it? How does it work when you actually drop a company or a group of companies this in this case a region from an index fund? How is that done? Yeah? Hi, and thanks for having me. You know, it depends, It depends

on the phone that we're talking about. These bigger indexes by MSCI insle Do Russell, they're tracked by broader emerging market ets, those that cover the global complex a bit more generally, and those have a pretty small explosure to Russia, maybe three to four percent of the fund holding. So the bigger stress questioned question and question here is what does this mean for those single country e T s

holding Russian assets a bit more exclusively? And while some of it is a way to see game, we know that many of these funds will have difficulty actually selling those underlying Russian assets to either comply with these index changes or in response to investors trying to their position. Tarlie and I remember a time when the fun industry

was starting right in those big countries. Single country funds were massive, and that's how investors would often you know, look to get exposure, especially when it comes to an emerging market like Russia. Um, but I'm curious how much money are we talking? What kind of you know, fund

flows have we been seeing in these specific type of funds. Sure, so when we look at sort of the globally listed e T s tracking Russian assets a bit more exclusively as a closed yesterday, that was about I believe one point seven billion US dollars. And you're right careful, you know, part of the beauty or attraction at ets is that they promise you this access to this otherwise kind of

tough to invest in parts of the market. So even if the funds are having trouble washing their hands of these underlying rush for now, a lot of these trading in the secondary market. Okay, So let's go from that index conversation to more the E t F conversation and speak a little bit about what's happening in these in these funds right now on the actual fund level. So because we've seen you know, a lot of activity with RSX, for example, the van neck uh one with e t

F with exposure to to Russia. Um, how does trading work there if if the funds are being removed from the index, and if you know, they're not creating new shares or like taking in new money, but it's still being traded on the secondary market, because there this is something that people can still act, says, using their trading their like retail investors can still access using their trading platforms. That's right. It sort of looks like a master ring,

like at the surface level. So if the underlying local Moscow exchange is shattered, there will be a massive price dislocation between the funds trading price and it's net active value or the value of those underlying securities. But it does allow the fund to act as a sort of price discovery vehicle. And that's what a lot of people in this market will say, you know, for an otherwise untradeable market, here's kind of a look at what investors feel like it should be priced at. And it's something

that we've seen in the past. You know. The story talks about how the industry has been tested in this way before, back in fifteen when the Greek stock exchange

closed during the country's government debt crisis. The Greek specific ETS was available to investors during the arid spring when the Egyptian stock market closed, that Veneck epdts continued to trade, and in both events there was a big gap between the ETS price and it's n a V. And in both situations, the fund act as price discovery vehicles while

those securities couldn't trade in the underlying markets. I mean, it's part of what's tricky now, is I mean, could we potentially if the situation if this war, let's let's be honest about what it is, this Russian war against Ukraine. You know, fingers crossed resolves itself sooner rather than later. Could all of this just come and done very quickly, or it doesn't. Necessarily we shouldn't assume it's going to

happen that way, right. It absolutely has to do with timing here, right, So depending on how long we see this war ongoing, depending on how long these sanctions remain sort of firm. Um, if it's too long, I could foresee some of these funds happening having to close down. We've already seen one liquidate, We've seen several mentions sort of halt to their creation. Um, you know, so depending on timing here, these things could sort of pop back up and continue to create, or we may see some

more closures in the market. I mean, this might not be something you can speak to, Carolina, but it's something that Caroline I've been been talking about. Is is depending on what happens. You know, these sanctions might not be lifted for a really long time, right, And even if they are, what is the appetite for actually doing business in the in this area of the world, given what's happening right now, like that might not continue? Am I not?

And it's it's all about risk. It's risk appetite, right, And so also if we see some of these investors who like these single country et s and have liked this Russia exposure for a certain aspect of the risk portfolio, you know, the question is where will they turn to for that for that risk appetite? Where will they turn to for that yield? And so that's sort of why we continue to monitor flows and see, you know, follow where that money will go, right, Becaud, do you know

emerging markets? We know risky and sometimes that's where bottom feeders come in. But nonetheless we'll keep an eye on it. Carolina, Thank you so much. Carolina Wilson. She's senior Emerging markets reporter at Bloomberg News. Her story among the most read on the Bloomberg terminal road. Yeah but you let me drive? Oh no, no, no, all right, please the D level. I don't want to drive. Good question. This is the drive to the clothes on Bloomberg Radio. And just about

tennis left in today's trading session. In a session where we're seeing those major equity averages bouncing around, we're pretty much at our loads of the session. As we just heard from Charlie on that Nastac really taking tim the biggest hit on a percentage basis, it's down, yeah, really being dragged down by names like Amazon, Tesla, Microsoft in Video, Facebook, Apple, Google,

a MD and more. That list certainly goes on. One person who we love to have on talking about a lot of those names and more is Sylvia Jablonski, chief investment officer at Defiance ETS. Sylvia joins us on the phone from New York City. Sylvia, it's great to have you with us. I want to start with some of these tech names and the way that you know that tech is really underperforming as a whole today. Um. I

know because I know that you know. You and I spoke earlier this week on Quick take Stock and you you told us that you know, tech was really an area of interest for you guys and where you saw opportunity for investors to go in and and buy the dip hi. Yes, good, good afternoon, and great to be with you again today. Um, you actually listed off a lot of my shopping list. So interesting, So definitely definitely

a great conversation I have. So you know, my my sense of this is really that, um, you know, although the geopolitical situation Russian Ukraine is obviously dominating the news headlights everywhere right now and is a major you know, humanitarian issue very obviously, UM, and it is impacting markets.

You know, I think that even prior to that, sort of the FED and the sphere and and volatility in the market had had taken some of the froth off of what was thought to be overvalued megacap tech names UM some of the ones which which you've listed, and you know, when I look at some of those names like Apple, UM, you know, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, to name a few, if you look at some of the earnings information and kind of look back to a cloud for example,

Cloud for a lot of those companies grew thirty UM. You know, Google is going to have add growth with with the sort of reopen trade on top of that, you know, cloud growth. There apples involved in automented reality, potentially the feature of Web THREEO, the metaverse, you know, plus um subscribers, streaming products and you name it. So I think these companies all have sort of diversified business lines.

They have a lot of cash UM catfaxes is strong, you know, some of them, Microsoft in particular, giving back a lot of cash to investors. And I just think that they remain resilient. So when I look at them, you know, a NAZAC more than fifteen percent high, it's you know, given today's market um activity anyway, and and some of these names off of their all time high with with multiple pulling back. I really like it in here, and I think that this is going to be a

a Poco trade. What did your thing too? And and talk to me a little bit about your investments that you've got your you know, you invest in hotel, airline and cruise. It's traditional and that that your e t F has down about two percent this year, but you really do tap into the changing world, the innovative world, and your digital revolution equity e t F down so

far this year. You definance um next gen H two down about seventeen that's energy hydrogen next gen fuel, which we are talking about so much in the context of the Russian invasion Ukraine and the world rethinking how it gets its energy. Your next gen SPAC, you know, SPACs

have been having a tough time down eighteen percent. How difficult though is this And for you guys and for you specifically this environment, you know, it's it's it's difficult right when you when you see those performance members and whatnot. And if you kind of like look at what is in our et F, most of it is disruptive technology and um, you know, so that's what's being hit the harness right now. And and you know, not not far behind than AZDAC, but you know, it's all of those trades.

So the reopen trade prior to things sort of heating up and intensifying to the level that they're at, which is you know, even just a week ago, um, Marriott, Hilton, Southwest Airlines, Delta United, Um, you know, sort of sort of pick the travel reopened name, Royal Caribbean, We're um, we're we're well, you know, more than out performing sp and SMP five at that point, down eight percent, and these names were all up you know, seven eight nine, so um and and really the tensions kind of through

that back and now that's down two percent. But once they sort of get past this, I expect to see, you know, part of the healthy economy and reopen trade, a lot of growth there. And in terms of the other names, you know, hydrogen I think is part of the conversation. You know, we're talking about climate change and and you know, now here we are and there's a big debate about whether, well, maybe we should be drilling for more oil because look at this sort of situation.

But I don't think that we're going to go that direction. I think, uh, you know, another way to look at it is maybe we should continue to invest in things like fuel cell technology and hydrogen um, you know, solar and green metals so that we don't need to rely on um you know, some of these environmental um types of commodities that that are you know, sort of holding us housage a little bit right now. And Sylvia, we

spoke to the CEO of of plug Power yesterday. Is that a company that you guys think of your it is? It is, it is. It's one of the top holdings in the hydrogen ts and I think what they're doing is great. I mean, they're they're creating this this sort of situation and are huge asset for for for the future use of of you know, hydrogen and fuel cell cell technology to power everything from crane, buses, bicycles, cars, you know, um, an airline. So it's a huge trend

for the future. And you know, the same thing with with the quantum and the five G. I mean, there's just no doubt in my mind that that the world is going to change and if we're going to have electric vehicles, augmented reality about three point all these things happen without you know, semi conductors by g and and some of those disruptive technologies are just getting hammered right now. So new money somebody has to commit. I mean, how much new money is coming in right now for you?

Or is it a little bit? Is it not happening? You know? And in all honesty, I think that, um, we see a lot of investors sitting on the sideline, so we're actually not really losing much, which is great. You know, a lot of the depreciation it's from pricing, right because the stocks to show down markets down from nats are down. So it's good to see that the shares outstanding remains strong. And we're seeing a lot of slow actually into hydrogen and into cruise that travel related

to ETF right now and everything else. I mean, as you would suspect, I think that there's enough fear out there. But um, it's like, um, you know, March, it's sort of another last year, but for a different reason. And I think when we look back on this, we'll see you know, I can't call the bottom here, right, but I certainly think this is a good dollar cross averaging type of you know, week and month. Yeah, And I thought that's telling what you said, you can't you don't

see the or you can't see the bottom yet. It's it's very tricky, and we certainly hear that from lots of other folks who are watching this market environment. Hey, Sylvia, thank you so much. Sylvia Jablonsky, she's chief investment officer at Definance CTF with us on the phone in New York City. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download

the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. And you can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg Global News