Vaccine Hesitancy and Refusal

If you can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio and be sure to watch us too on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News. New York City's mayor getting ready uh two looks like halt indoor dining. He says, it's just a matter of time. We also have US COVID hospitalizations near eighty thousand as records are toppled daily, And then we also had on

the flip side, moderna vaccine production. It's gearing up that according to its partner and Oxford to study confirming it's astra Zeneca COVID shot response in elderly specifically, there's been a lot of the kind of yin and yang when it comes to COVID nineteen news this week, let's talk about it. Dr Daniel Salmon is Director of the Institute for Eccine Safety and Professor of International Health at the

Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public House supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, Founder, Bloomberg LP, and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Salomon joins us on the phone from Baltimore. Good afternoon. Nice to have you

here at Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. So, tell me a little bit about when you look at the headlines, I do feel like it's you know, a step forward as a couple of steps back, and when it comes to progress on a vaccine, but we know that's still going to take a while. And then of course we continue to see the numbers going up here in the

United States and really globally. How would you assess the situation at this point, Well, from an issue of COVID disease, I mean, we're seeing huge amounts of disease, and as you've described in your preamble, there's you know, increases in hospitalization solve really concerning and uh, it's likely to get worse before it gets better, you know. The vaccine side, well, it seems to be good news but their press releases, this is based on so very very few people have

seen the data. I haven't seen the data, and the press releases sound great, but we really need to see the data. We need to see how effective it is among whom and what exactly is effective in is it preventing any disease? Is preventing serious disease? Does the effectivenesssary by population? Doesn't prevent transmission of disease? And presumably the safety profile looks good if they wouldn't or they wouldn't have put out a press release. But so we really

need to see the data. I mean this is these are press releases. Yeah, well, I think that is like a brilliant point because listen, they are most of them publicly health companies. I think all of them are publicly health companies, and so they can't certainly make statements that might financially alter what investors see or you know, if they promised too much so and so forth. Right, there's

rules when it comes to putting this stuff out. But as you say, data is data, there's a lot of data that we are still we've collected but still need to collect. When it comes to COVID nineteen, it's impact on different populations, but also how you treat different populations and how those treatment you know, impact different populations. Yeah, so I think that's all true. And likewise, there's a lot of data on these vaccines that we haven't seen. I mean, when we evaluate a vaccine, it's not based

on press releases. So the next step is that FDA has an advisory committee called bur PACK, the Vaccines and Related Biologic Product Advisory Committee, and these data are going to go in front of a pack and you're gonna have external, independent scientists that are really going to carefully review the data and then make a recommendation f d A and those meetings are open to available to the public.

And that's a really important step because that's an opportunity for the scientific and the clinical community to see the data and to have independent experts wig in on it. And it's also a chance for the public to see how this all works and based their views not on things they meet on the internet or or press releases, but by having signed it take or that's transparent after

go ahead. No, I was gonna say, you know, and I've said this a couple of times on our air, that we you know, as a public are are seeing how this problem. Normally, yeah, yeah, we hear about a drug and it's approved and it's years of testing, and we don't really pay as much attention right until the doctor says, here, here's a prescription for x y Z. But we are really learning and seeing this process. I

want to dig a little bit deeper. I mean in terms of the data specifically, what is it that you're going to be looking for. Well, I'm going to be looking at what outcomes were examined and what the efficacy was for those outcomes. So I'm interested in, for example, did it prevent disease altogether or did it prevent clinical disease,

and what's the difference between that. What's the difference. Well, we know with COVID that lots of people have sent don't have symptoms, but have disease, right, and that's why the mass recommendation changed. Um, many infectious diseases, you're not infectious to other people until you have symptoms. So initially the recommendations were if you don't feel good, stay at home, which makes a lot of sense. But then when we discovered you have people that have disease and transmit disease,

but they don't have any symptoms. That's when the mass recommendation came in, because if staying at home when you feel sick isn't enough. And so whether or not the vaccine prevents subclinical disease is important. Um doesn't prevent more serious disease, and if so, maybe maybe even more so than it prevents disease. I mean, they're talking effectiveness. That's very good, But there are vaccines, like for the flu, where it's moderately effective in preventing influenza, but it's even

better at preventing serious disease. That's important. And how long does that protection last, that's a really important question. We're not going to know. We're not going to know for a while. I actually cut up with the Modern CEO earlier today for a Bloomberg panel and Bloomberg event, and you know, he did point out that he said what was significant about their developments was that it was for you know, kind of your more serious cases of COVID. Yeah, so,

I mean that's important, that's helpful. My preference would be a vaccine that prevents all disease and therefore prevents any transmission of disease, and you get one or two shots and it lasts forever um. That's a very high standard and doubts any vaccine all of that. Mr Salmon, you know you you know about obviously vaccine development, you understand distribution, you understand safety, the process that we're happening, even though

it's happening much more quickly. Do you feel comfortable about it? Do you have confidence in it? Yeah, that's a great question, and I'm really glad you're asking it because I do. And I think there's a lot of this number out there because it's called operation warp speed and it's happening so quickly that that somehow safety is being short and

that's not the case. These are very large clinical trials and as long as the process continues using our normal mechanisms and having external review, I'm very comfortable with the process. And it's it's important that people understand this. And I think what's also important you started talking about it before before the break, you talked about you know, when you evaluate a vaccine, you go, you know, it's not on the press releases that there will be independent scientists right

who are going to review this. They will ultimately make recommendations. It's not just the company data correct it's not just government officials. I mean there are outside independent right. Yeah, I'm sorry you cut out for a second. I thought you you paused. Um, it's a really important point. And we talked about the verpack and FDAs advisory committee, but

CDC has an advisory committee to that has evolved. Once FDA gives approval for use UM and then goes to the CDC and they turned to their advisory committee on Immunization Practice, and they look at all the data and they make recommendations for who should get the vaccine, if anybody is contraindicated and they shouldn't get it, and how many doses, and what what spacing, and where the prioritization is, who should get it first, and all of that, again

is done by independent scientists, and it's done with transparency. Those meetings are open to the public. Now, these advisory committees don't make the decision. They make recommendations, and it's up to the agencies, the FDA or the CDC to

accept those decisions, which they usually do. So this is a process that's been around for a long time and it has a long track history of working well and making sure that vaccines that are used widely are very safe and at least reasonably effective, that the benefits outweigh the risk for those populations that are recommended. So you're asking me if I'm comfortable. I'm saying I am, as long as it goes through this process, which it is,

and the public needs to see this. The public needs to see that these are decisions that are made on evidence and science and viewed by external experts to be fair. And I just because you understand this a whole lot more than I do. Um, the the process has gone from a decade to essentially a year right before you know, give or take a few months or so before it

kind of rolls out to everyone. What is the risk in that you don't have maybe ten years of study, or you don't have years after someone's been given a vaccine to kind of track what the longer term impact is. Do we need to be at least a little cautious about something like that? Well, I think we need to be very cautious about everything, and a lot of the ways that this is speed had been sped up doesn't

cause any concerns. Scientifically, we did very large studies of multiple products at the same time, and we put tremendous resources into recruiting people for those studies. So the fact that that's done faster, as long as it's done well, it's fine. One of the biggest ways that we've of time is that the vaccine has been manufactured prior to the results of the phase three studies. That is a

big financial risk. Normally, you see the results of phase three studies and if it looks good, you build manufacturing capacity. In this case, that capacity was built earlier, so there's financial risk there, but there's not risk of there being a problem. If the vaccine turns out to be not suitable for use, then you've wasted all that money, but you haven't hurt anybody. So these these processes I think

are very solid. Um. One of the questions you asked was, well, what about something that has a long term safety problem? And you know right now the standard is that people have to have been studied for at least sixty days, and most adverse reactions that happened after a vaccine happened

in the first sixty days. But there is some possibility if it's something that took six months to develop, Well, you're not going to find that out until you wait, so at the end, you have to balance risks and benefits, and known risks and known benefits. And we're, as you've described, in the pandemic situation where disease is increasing quickly, the hospitalizations are increasing, and pretty soon the deaths are going

to start increasing. Economy has had major hits, so you have to make the decision based on the best developble evidence. What matters is that the science is driving the decisions, that it's free from politics, free from other factors, that this is evidence based decisions. We're gonna leave it on that note, because that's a great way to wrap it up.

Dr Salmon, Thank you so much, greatly appreciated. Dr Daniel Salmon, Director of the Institute for Vaccine Safety and Professor of International Health at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio. Well, this is among our most read stories, uh and it's one reporter for Bloomberg Business Week. It's about something that we were all trying to get back in the spring.

We're talking about lisol and how there seems to be more than ever but guess what, it's still not enough for the US. So let's get into it with Bloomberg Business WEE get it or Joe Webber. He's on the access line from Brooklyn, also with US Bloomberg News team leader for US Healthcare. He wrote it. Drew Armstrong. He's on the phone in New York City, Joel, I gotta tell you back in the spring, I could not get Lisolf for nothing. Yeah, you weren't alone. I don't think

anybody else could. And when you could, when you did see it, you you know, immediately hoarded it and it was one of the great hoarding items. Um. And you know, back then, there were a couple of stories like that that I was really interested in. And you know, one was three m you know, how do you make how do you make more? In masks? Yesterday? And we did that one as a cover story, and the lights on one just stuck with me because I was like, boy,

I'm really curious how you make more Lisol? And Drew Armstrong actually happened to have that same kind of urge and came back with a fully realized story that is one of my favorites from sort of pandemic times, Drew, how do you make more Lisol? So, yeah, I start ask that question, UM earlier this year, you know, for exactly the same reason you guys, because I couldn't find it anywhere. And you know this company that makes a record, UM Ben Keyser. It's a London company. They are a

big consumer conglomerate. And one of the things you find from UM reading about this is that you know, there's this massive company with huge resources, but you know, they have this relatively thin, delicate supply chain that's stretched all over the US and all over the world. And when

the pandemic really you know, did two things. One just put their demand through the roof for this product, but to you know, just absolutely upset all of the kind of global trade and even the U. S trade and you know, all the kind of things that you need to make stuff in a factory in the world that

we live in. It it really jumbled their world. And so they were they were great about opening the door and telling us, you know how they did everything from like flying seven seven full of chemicals from Europe to the US as they can make more whites and lightsol spray UM. At one point they were starting to run out of ethanol, which is one of the main ingredients of Lysol. So it happened that Americans weren't driving as much because they were all staying home. And ethanol the

important gasoline additive. So they retooled a ethanol plant in Nebraska and makes ethanol for gasoline and just shipped Twane cars with these, you know, thirty thousand gallons tanks of ethanol to their factory in New Jersey. It's just fascinating to hear about all the things that they did in order to, you know, keep this stuff blowing and still

have not been at all. This is one of the stories man, You know, you could just sit down and talk about for a long time because it's just interesting facets something we take for granted, right, but you really dug into kind of the nuts and bolts of it. Tell us though, and I have to say, on our planning call this morning, we were all getting into it. Tell us about Mr Lysol and Flushing Meadows. Sure. So there's a guy at a record called Joe Robino. He has been he has worked on Lysol for thirty five

some years through its previous owners. He's a microbiologist. Um, you know, there's a there's a little red banner on the Lysol can which says kills nine percent of germs. And you know that's that clings. Everyone has to look at the chloroxy does everybody makes the same claim. But they were actually the first people to do the research

to show that. And one of the things that they did, um in the early days of this product back in the in the very early sorry how did the early product, but back in kind of his early on in his career in the early nineties, they would do stuff like cope a toy ball with a harmless virus and put it into a daycare and they go around swabbing everything to figure out, you know, where did this virus go. Um, they did the same thing in hotel rooms with people

who had cold. They're really trying to understand the microbiology aspects of what their products could kill. And one of the things that they studied was, you know, just how you know, if you have basically a plateful of you know, germs to microbes, you know, viruses or bacteria, how much does it actually kill? And you know, he was talking to me as he was explaining as one of many conversations we had, he said, well, we had a you know a three log or four log or even a

five log reduction and what that actually means is nine. UM. The marketing folks took a look at that and they said, people love the idea of we gotta put this on the camp um And that's kind of the history of where that number comes from and disinfecting. UM. If they were the first to make it, now everybody everybody does it actually does a lot more than that. But you know, there is a tremendous amount of research, quotes, scientific and consumer that goes on behind these products. UM to figure

it out. You mentioned Flushing Meadows, my favorite place in this whole story. Say, light Bulb makes a toilet bowl cleaner, and UM, you know, if you make a toilet bowl cleaner, you're always changing and tweaking your product. You're introducing new you know, formulations, things like that. You have to test it and if you sell your toilet bowl cleaner around the world, you have to test it in toilets around

the world. So they have a room. It's Room A one five four in Montvale, New Jersey, and there's a

hundred four toilets brought in from around the world. There's a UK road, there's a European Union row, there's an American row of toilets, there's an Indian row of toilets, and they have a back room where they actually replicate the water conditions from around the world to match those places, and little robotic arms that flush each toilet on kind of the you know, typical home schedule of toilet use for say, you know the people in the United Kingdom,

and you'll be standing in this room and all of a sudden you'll hear sixteen toilets, you know from France, all flush at once. That is how you test toilet bowl cleaner. It's really it was a fascinating, fascinating and also probably the best photograph we published all year, just to see, you know, a testing a testing center of toilets. I want to bring it back to the flagship product though you mentioned um ethanol being one of the main ingredients.

What are the ingredients that go into lysol? And and just like, how did is that whole manufacturing side really come together? Because they're producing upwards of a million cans a day at this point, right, Yeah, So they have a plant in a suburb area of New Jersey. They actually asked me not to see where it is because demand has been so crazy that they were worried that

people would start showing up outside the plant. They don't really have a lot of security there or anything like that, and they don't want to have to hire it um, but they you know, there's a rail there's a rail siding that runs up to the plant, and these rail cars that I mentioned, there's these thirty thousand gallons giant, black, hulking rail cars. They drop off a hundred twenty two hundred and fifty sorry I think hundred twenty thousand gallons

of ethanol a day. Ethanol is a solvent. What it does with a virus like covid, like the coronavirus, is it essentially coronavirus is a little bit of genetic material in a lipid wrapper o lipid skin. Ethanol gets in there essentially tears lipids apart and it renders it inert um. There's another chemical called a quat quaternary and aluminium fault I believe right. It's another key component. And then after that kind of sent they put all this stuff together.

They call it the juice. They manufacture it, you know, met like tens of thousand gallons, thinks. But it goes into the cans and a little bit of Chaine as a propellant and onto your store. It's pretty amazing. I've got to say that we were waiting weeks recently for some Lisol wipes and when they came in, it was like celebration at our house. It's pretty remarkable, UM threw only like you can do. It's a great story, UM, and everybody should check it out. I'll put it on Twitter.

Drew Armstrong, team leader for US Healthcare Bloomberg News along we Tell Webber, editor of Bloomberg Business Week. Check out the new issue a business Week online, on newsstands and of course on the Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. There's one company and stuff that we wanted to bring to your attention, especially as we get ready for the holiday shopping season. Just

around the corner. Macy's had quite a swing today. It was down ten percent at its lows, up almost three percent at its highs. Right now it's up about two in the trade, and that's after the company reported its latest quarterly results. Let's get into it with Bloomberg Intelligence Senior US Retail Alice put him Goyle. She is with us on the phone in New Jersey, Pudham. So nice to have you here. How are you? I'm good, Thanks for loving me, Harol, Well, good to have you here. Um.

How's Macy's doing. I can't tell from the trade today because it was all over the map, it was, you know. I think I think macy Is the story is kind of the same with everyone else that has recorded so far, where you're seeing a marked improvement from where we were in March and April. So you're seeing a progression where comps have gotten better, stores have opened, but they're still down.

That's that digital is on fire. And and we see this across the board, not only a Macy's, where digital sales they're now representing roughly forty of total fails and that's probably going to accelerate over the holidays as stories can handle the higher capacity and the viruses. The cases are actually rising. So we think digital is where the focus is right now. Macy's is doing kind of everything right really at the moment, I would say to get

customers to shop with it, go figure. And the CEO did say that the digital business is growing at quote an aggressive rate. So listen, you and I have talked so much about the retail sector. You know, macy specifically, it's just one of those iconic brands, right, they've just been around forever. But we also know retail is going through disruption, innovation just you know, like a lot of other industries. But you know, we've been overstored, overmauled. Macy's,

as you said, is doing everything right. So what is the retailer that they ultimately need to be to survive for another How many years have they been around? Is it a hundred years? I don't know, it's a hundred and sixty, yeah, okay, So can they be around for the next century? And what do they need to do to kind of to do that? Sure, I think department

stores in general need to look at their fleet. Again, we've already seen the big foosh on digital and really the disruption that we were expecting from digital, meaning going from penetration, happened in a matter of six months already. So that's happening, and we think it's here to stay. We think, you know, higher digital penetration rates will persist even past the pandemic and retailers could reach equilibrium, especially these department stores where a large portion of their sales

will come from the online platform. So what does this mean for stores? It means that they can have these large, oversize you know, bigger stores. Macy stores average over a hundred thousands, and they're huge and there's so much in there. So consumers they're now looking for, you know, spaces where they can go quickly in and out of. They don't want to have to run from one department to another and kind of shop the way their grandparents shopped, if

you would say. Um, so they need to work on that, and they are. They've made small steps. You know, they have their market at Macy stores where they're rolling out

a new small store format. But at the end of the day, as that accelerates, they need to still think about their bigger boxes and downside some So let me just you know, I'm gonna go back to digital sales because I'm just kind of looking through the numbers and forgive me, and we kind of covered a little bit of this, but I mean digital sales they were up versus the same quarter last year, but the second quarter

they were up fifty year over year. Is that a problem? No, not at all, because um, in the second quarter, stores were closed, so there was no other outlet to go. Okay, right, but if you look at the total sales, total sales progression has actually moderated as the year has progressed. So overall, it's encouraging time. So help me out because I like chopping digitally and I will definitely go I'll try new places. I'll go to definitely the places. I know. What is

Macy's need to do. Who is their customer and how do they keep them engaged on a digital platform? Yeah, and their customers everyone, So it's all demographics. But where they're gravitating towards the younger millennial gen Z customer, and you know, traditionally they've had a much harder time attracting that customer. But over the past six months, it seems that they made a lot of problem growth and part of that progress came through their digital efforts that they've

stepped up. So the rollout of curbside has really boosted their image to that millennial customer that probably doesn't want to go into a store, but hey, if you want things within the next day or even the same day, you can just drive off and pick it up. So that's been a huge plus for the retailer. Um not just Macy's, but even Coals. In fact, Coal said a third of their digital demand was picked up at them, a third of their pickup demand was picked up at

the curb. That's pretty promising my kind of shopping. I'm gonna say, give me out of the stores. Hey, one thing I want to ask you. We think of Macy's, we think of the Macy's brand, but Macy's is Bloomingdale's. They are Blue Mercury and they're Macy's. Where's the most growth Blue Mercury. I mean, that's cosmetics and stuff that's got usually really high margins. So I just wonder, where's the growth, Where's you know, kind of the future potential

for them among those brands. Yeah, I think I think the highest growth would be within Blue Mercury at Backstage UM, which is their off price UM banner that done would follow Bloomingdale's and then Macy's. Macy's as their largest and it's, you know, the biggest brand that they have and also the one that needs the most work. Yeah. Interesting, but I mean it's I feel like that whole bloom Mercury sophore that is a space that just continues to explode.

Just got about thirty seconds here. Yeah. Absolutely, As you said before, you know, personal care beauty is where people are focused, something that they'll always continue to replenish. Our buy the traffic driver aspect of a department store, and I had the highest margins close to a no more. Oh my god. Yeah, I gotta say, to be honest, that's kind of what I have spent money on while I've been working from home. Is stuff like that. Put hum. Nice to hear your voice. Take care of put hum Goyle.

She's senior US Retail Alice at Bloomberg Intelligence, Rod Macro a journal Now, but you let me drive? No, no, no no, all right please, I want to drive. Strive the question. This is the drive to the Globe community. Thanks. We'll drying us down on Bloomberg Radio. It is time for the Drive to the close on this Thursday. I'm Carol Master in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio and delighted to

have back with us. Vinny Catalano, chief market strategist at Stuyvest Capital Management, also global investment strategist at the Faux Red Mount. He joins us once again on the phone in New Jersey. So, Vinny, how are you? I'm Wow, how are you, Carol? I'm doing well. Um. Also just kind of watching the virus numbers, getting a little nervous about what it means for my beloved city of New York City and the surrounding area. Um, how do you see it? How does it impact ultimately what's going to

happen in our economy? Once again, what it means for small businesses, what it smalls for Americans, what it means for Americans, and what it means ultimately for our economy. Well that's not too much, Okay. Well it's all connected though, right, Vinny? I mean it really, You know, you can't talk about COVID without or you can't talk about the economy without talking about COVID. You can't really talk about Wall Street about without talking about the virus, although there is this

incredible disconnect between Main Street and Wall Street. Well, absolutely, and small businesses you've mentioned a moment ago. Uh, small businesses clearly have a problem. You cannot run most small businesses a capacity. You can't have restaurants half full, you can't have bubbles outside of restaurants, and so on and so forth. Bars they can't do it. Colleges cannot continue on. Uh, in the manner that they have. So you know, the

vaccine could not come along quickly enough. But between now and then, obviously we need some government support and government help. And it would be nice if the left hand knew what the right hand was doing and they kind of cooperator down to Washington. We could we could definitely use that. As far as the stock market is concerned, Um, that's something where you know, it operates on a on a

completely different level. Um. One of the elements about the stock market that I think many people don't fully appreciate is the fact that the stock market has one characteristic that a lot of other markets do not have, and that's liquidity. Get in, you can get out, and you

can do it very easily. And in an institutionally dominated market, which the stock market is, there is that's you know, macho approach to you know, a driver mentality coming down the road and you know, playing a game of chicken, and well, I can get out quicker than the other guy can that kind of thing, and why not? Why not? So that's kind of what's going on, uh in large part um and to a large extent that that helps explain a lot of the stock market behavior, which goes

beyond your more traditional way of looking at it. Okay, So having said that kind of back at back at me, So how do you put that or that thinking into kind of practical advice. Well, I think that, Yeah, I think the thing that that would help investors to this

season to be reflective. We're entering in that and so it's a good idea to take take a stock of where you're at, take a look at the methodology that you use, try to understand the nature of the beasts that you're dealing with, Understand the nature of how the market behaves, and and understand the fact that just like a UH Professor Rick Mason's book, it's not complicated. This

is really about complexity. It's not about complicated systems. It's about complexity, and complexity means that you don't have a solvable situation. You have a multi level, multifaceted aspect which is called the stock market. It's not just you know, Grandpa Buffett drinking his your plan is ukulele and drinking and sipping his diet coke and investing long time. It's also institutional investors doing completion strategies with e T s. It's UH risk parity programs that are going on. It

is algis UH and algorithmic trading. It's a whole hodgepodge of different things that are impact in the market. So what do you do about that? Try to understand the basics, understand the core element of what goes into valuation. And I did a little something. I posted it up on my LinkedIn page. It's a little diagram. I call it

the funnel. I think it could help people understand how you at least need to understand the basics of investments and then you can kind of go from there, but at least understand that that some of the core principles concepts. Think in terms of concepts as opposed to facts and opinions. Well as the point is her video that you know the mark it as many different things, right, um, And so it's not just you know, one ideology or one

factor at play. UM. But I do wonder increasingly the institutional money, how that often is really impacting the overall trade. I feel like in many ways, the institutional trade because of algorithms and formulas out there, mathematical formas it often provides, you know, kind of a safety net when the market goes really low because programs kick in and investors come

back into the market. Same thing. When it gets too heavy, right, some things get hit, some numbers get tripped, and then investors, you know, institutional investors get out of the market. But it really kind of provides almost you know, this kind of calm way of keeping the market in check, well for better or worse, for better or work. That's one

aspect of it, definitely. But here's something that perhaps the listeners can take a look into, try and identify, try and find the risk the excuse me, the rate galio um information piece of this up on the internet in several places about risk parity now, and Race talked to us a lot. In fact, he was part of our Bloomberg New Economy Forum this week, so there's a lot of information from Ray on the Bloomberg terminal and at Bloomberg dot com. That's right, and try and understand what

risk parity is all about. And when you look at risk parity as one of the let's call it, one of the animals and around there that that populate this jungle called the stock market, you will be shocked to see that that that the approach has little to nothing to do just like kind of like a technical analysis in a way has little to nothing to do with

the fundamentals of the companies. And yet at the same time you've got that going on, while you have Lauren Buffett stuff going on and and his approach, while you have a whole range of these other types of beings that are in the space that are doing all of this stock market stuff. It's complexity, it's not complicated. Is complexity and complexity is different than complicated. Are you saying

retail investors, you don't stand a chance? Just quickly? You do if you if you focus in on your risk tolerances and your goals and your objectives and then trying to learn, try to understand what's going on, up your game, Yeah, that type of thing, and be reflective, look at you know you really try to be informed, not feel informed. Yeah, no, no, no, that's a big distinction and certainly an important one when you're investing in the markets. All Right, gotta run, Vinny,

Thank you so much. People have a good Thanksgiving. Vinny Catalano, chief market strategist at Stuyvesant Capital Management, Global investment strategist at the Faux Red Mount joining us on the phone from New Jersey. Thanks so much for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or at Bloomberg dot com, and be sure to check out our daily radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio. And be sure to watch us too on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Well Needs