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In the meantime, we got some news. Market started off this morning kind of mellow after yesterday's selling, and then bam, we got a headline out of the White House.
Yeah, we certainly did check out. Shares of aluminum and steel producers Century Aluminum, US Steel, New Core all higher this after President Trump said he would increase steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada to fifty percent to retaliate against Ontario's move raising taxes on electricity sent to the US, ramping up his fight with the US's largest trading partner. We got Joe Doe with us. He's Bloomberg News Metals and mining reporter and heavy machinery reporter. He joined us
here in Bloomberg internat Active at Brokers Studio. Joe, how much steal and aluminum do we get from Canada?
About sixty percent of our imports in aluminum or from Canada, and something like twenty three percent of our steel imports are from Canada. I think the steel numbers over five million.
Okay, yeah, so these tariffs are certainly material, no question.
Yeah, absolutely they are. I mean they're they're deeply material on aluminum, and they are significant on the steel front.
Do we have the capacity in the United States to provide and produce all the steel and aluminum that we need without importing any.
There is capacity still available in the domestic supply chain by the US mills for steel. We're running at about seventy five percent right now. Earlier one of our bi analysts was saying we could go, you know, eighty five percent, which I think if you're hitting eighty five percent, that's what the mills tell you is when they're really making a lot of money and they can do. They can't go over ninety percent because it just doesn't make sense.
You'd be running them too hard and you could break things. Aluminum, there's absolutely no way, bottom line.
So okay, so what do we do. We just have to pay for it.
Right now, it seems like you're going to have to pay a lot for aluminum coming from Canada and you'll be paying if you're buying from Canada, you'll be paying a lot for steel as well. But the Algoma CEO, who's one of the three major steelmakers in Canada, was on our sister network in Canada earlier today and said, we're calling up all of our customers in Canada and asking them to buy from US. And a large part of that is because there's worries of retaliatory terrafs and
everything else. But I can tell you I had a at a meeting earlier today with someone who's very familiar with the Canadian steel market and said, you know, if things get really hairy, that's what you're going to see the Canadian steelmakers do. They're just going to sell to Canadians and then the US market's going to figure out how to fill that need.
Well, we're already seeing the effects of these announced tariffs, says Carol.
Mentioned.
Just a few minutes ago, Ontario announced it was suspend a twenty five percent surcharge on electricity sent to the US after President Trump announced he'd double steal in aluminum tariffs on Canada fifty percent. This in an escalating trade war between the neighbors. So are we going to see these tariffs removed, because Canada's responded.
This is a hard thing to figure out. We I had a few phone calls this morning that we were able to add in to our main bar story that was first announcing that the President had made this point. And what we found out through sources who are experts helping out on the steel and aluminum terrafs. Right these are people who have effectively been saying we should have these tarffs were admitting to us that they were unaware
that the President was going to do this today. I think that's significant that even when the industries that are supposedly getting the benefit weren't looped into something. It just shows the mayhem. It just shows how so much of this is coming together in a snap out of nowhere. And I think the trouble is and you hear this. I mean, in the past two weeks, I've sat down with so many traders who are in the physical markets for stealing aluminum, and I've said, it's impossible to put
a bet on right now. We can't do anything. We don't know if the example that I was given by one person was they had made a bet on copper right there was an expectation that on some level the President would do something on copper. And then at the end, at the beginning of February, he came in and said, yes, we are going to do something on copper, and it
looked like that trade was great. But then a few days later he came back and said, well, copper's not going to be a part of this initial round of terrace, and so that trade is completely wound right there. I think that's just an anecdote of what we're talking about here as to why it's so difficult even for traders, right who make money on the way up or on the way down, are just saying we're staying away from this for the moment.
That is pretty amazing, right to just say hands off right as you say that they like to play the volatility. I mean, help me out here. Maybe stupid question, I'm okay with that, but I mean in terms of the US steel and aluminum industry, or I guess it's really they do they want higher tariffs.
Listen the domestic steel producers and the which.
Have been decimated over the decade.
Well yeah, I mean, listen, these the steelmakers have been mostly okay, Like if it's such a long breakdown, and we don't have to get into it. But New Core Corporation makes a lot of money their A plus bond ratings. Same with Steel Dynamics, Right, these guys do very well and they sell a lot of steel. But the issue is they want to make better profits. And that was the whole point in twenty eighteen when we implemented the Section two thirty two terrafs on steel. It was not
about jobs. We talked about this, right, It wasn't about jobs. It was about making capacity utilization go up. So if you're running at eighty five percent, you are maximizing your profits as a steel mill.
Right, Joe, this is going to be news to you because you're not looking at your terminal right now. But the President making comments he says on Canada will probably make a different tariff decision. He said he's looking at backing down on the fifty percent duties on Canada. Just your instant reaction to that, there.
You go, like you know, I mean, here we are in this moment, right, I cannot imagining sitting on a trading desk right now just seeing that and actually probably laughing about it like that. That's probably what you're seeing from a lot of folks around these markets, and I'm not just saying it who are just kind of chuckling to themselves. And it's not because it's funny.
No, right, that's right, that's right. I mean right, because if anything you need, it's one thing. If it's a policy you don't like, but it needs to be clear, correct and not necessarily change from hour to hour, day to day.
Correct. And remember we heard this from the steelmakers in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. They were the beneficiaries of the steel tears. But even they were saying to us back then because Trump was saying, well, we're going to give exemption to these countries in those countries, but maybe not those countries, in these countries. Finally, they just started saying, tell us what it is you want to do. If it's nothing, then that's fine. If it's something that's great too.
At least we can start telling our customers to book.
If we find ourselves in a situation here in the United States where people who build things and make stuff are using US produced steel and they're using perhaps imported aluminum because we can't make enough aluminum and paying more for that imported aluminum. Do we see inflationary effects on goods?
Yeah, it'll depend on the good I think aluminum. A place where we immediately saw inflationary effects was like window frames, because window frames are aluminum and actually bought by a lot of regular people in America. And you saw those prices shoot up. I mean it's not like they were on an index, but we saw anecdotally it was like, you know, people just seeing you know, twenty thirty forty
percent higher prices on window frames. I mean, listen, the Ford CEO did say, if all of these tariffs, right, like the Canada Mexico terrafs that haven't gone on, the aluminum terras steel terrors go on and they stack, it's going to blow a hole through the industry. And you had Coca Cola say last month as well, like, well we might consider moving back, you know, substitution, right instead
of cans will go to plastic. Well the problem with that is like, yeah, you think the consumer is going to be okay with you Coca Cola suddenly going to plastic bottles instead of aluminum. I mean this has been a trend that consumers have been asking for, right, Hey, we don't want to be ruining the environment, right, So wait, suddenly you're just throwing that out the window and going back to a cost saving Oh and good luck changing the supply chain on that.
So in terms of building out additional capacity, is that even likely if there are tariffs? I mean at the expense, the commitment the long.
Term like it could happen. It could happen in steel. I think we talked about that a few weeks ago, which is like, you know, if there is a long term feeling that these terriffs are going to stay on, the steel companies could start investing more into building out more capacity. Right now, they still have space to use current capacity that's not online, and if they see longer
term they might invest in that. I think the question is will we actually see capacity invested in in the aluminum space, because the aluminum space is much more of an electricity play, right, Like the Hawesville smelter that was in Kentucky that is currently idled used as much energy in one day as the entire city of Louisville, which is the nearest city.
So you got AI and you got making metals using electricity.
And remember a lot of those power contracts in say like the Northwest that used to be used by Alcoa. When Alcoa shut down all of their mills, a lot of that energy went towards data centers. Well, it's just it's so expensive, and that's why Quebec remains the aluminum producing region of North America. It's a bunch of hydropower. It's cheap. They supply a lot of energy to to some of the northern states here in the US, as many people have found out in the past week. So
it's just it's it's real. Mayhem.
Uh okay, sorry, I'm looking at the Trump.
Yeah, I'm a little speechless.
President say, I don't see your recession at all. And again, as you said, the energy all right, So so are you just going to wait for the next headline or wait, how do you know things are going to finally calm down? Traders start to make trades.
Listen at twelve and one am whatever whatever the tariff number that is in place, that will be real and that will be actionable because they'll the the customs will actually be adding on to the register. Okay, this is what you owe for these incoming products. That's at least something people can start to hang their hats on other than that. Uh, it's it's like one industry person told me a few weeks ago and when I asked, well, hey, are these Canadian and Mexican tariffs actually going into place?
And they said, I'll let you know at twelve oh one Wednesday.
Not wild, but that's the reality of it, right because it goes into fact. Listen, you're super busy. You're the person we always want to talk to when we have got a story like this because you know it like nobody else. It just blows us away every time. So thank you, thank you. We know you've got to run, but Jodo, you just totally rock. Bloomberg News Medals and Mining and Heavy Machinery reporter. Thank you so much, really appreciate it.
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Airline stocks are taking a hit today. Two of the biggest US airlines slash their financial forecast. The carriers, along with Arrival Southwest Airlines, are raining expectations in the face of a broad and rapid reversal of demand trends that had buoyed the industry heading into twenty twenty five. Carol, we're talking about Delta Airlines and American Airlines.
Yeah, the group overall though down about two and a quarter percent, but we're down more than four percent earlier in the session. Let's get to what it all means, what you need to know about the outlook for the industry. Back with us is Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Aerospace, Defense and Airlines analyst George Ferguson. He is in our Bloomberg News bureau in Washington, DC. So, George, I have to say that when the Delta headlines cross yesterday and we saw
the stock immediate reaction, it just tanked. We all got a little bit of a jolt started there. American followed Southwest too to some extent. Is it all the same story about consumer demand?
Yeah, it feels to me to be very similar.
Right.
So we also had Jeff Blue come in today, and I think the core story here is that demand is softening, so they're all lowering their revenue expectations.
I think what we're.
Seeing as well is that for some of them, fuel is helping to prop up earnings to some degree for the lower cost carriers, but for Delta, lower fuel prices wasn't enough and so they I think showed one of the bigger decreases in expectations for one que.
Did we get any specific commentary about details as to why the guidance cut here, George? Is it based at the front of the plane the back of the plane? Is it consumers? Is it business who's not spending money right now like these carriers thought they would.
Yeah, So, working off the details that Delta gave us, they said that premium was still holding up well, and international was still holding up well, right, so Pacific and Transatlantic. So it made it sound like economy was having difficulties. Latin America was already in difficult shape. Sounds like it's still in difficult shape from probably an oversupply perspective. And
they also said close in bookings were weaker. We typically associate that with business travel, So it feels like maybe there's some concern in the business community, maybe with all the you know, sort of all the changes in government we've seen in the first couple of days of the Trump administration, but seemed like there could be a bit of a business confidence problem.
You said close in bookings, meaning flights that are booked within a certain time period.
Yeah, tickets, you know, tickets booked within less than a month. Usually it's a couple of weeks before travel. Traditionally, that's you know, been the realm of business travelers.
Okay, why is jet Blue up? It's up four point three percent? Help me hear. Yeah.
So, I mean when we looked at Jet Blue's revision again, you know, the revenues off a bit, but they saved it. They are they they save their profit expectations on fuel prices, and it didn't look you know, it didn't look that bad. So I think Jet Blue has been one that's been cutting capacity. I think the more you're cutting capacity and not trying to grow your network right now, you know, the more able you are to hold out for some
better fares. And so Jet Blue looked better than some of the other competitors we saw.
George, can we extrapolate the way that these airlines are talking about demand into other parts of the economy or in an economic cycle? What is the signal? I guess is a better way to ask this question that airlines send to us about what's happening in the economy.
Yeah, I think you absolutely can extrapolate, right, So I think you know, travel demand is, you know, for the leisure traveler, very discretionary. I think when you get concerned about your pocketbook, you probably pull back there first. I think in the US, especially domestic, which Delta called out as one of the weaker markets, we have the ability
to drive a lot of places rather than fly. It's usually a bit cheaper, it takes longer, Right, We've all loaded the family into the car in New Jersey and driven them to Orlando. It can be cheaper, but it can be a little taxing on your nerves. So I think, yeah, I think it's a good indicator of the consumers.
George just speaking from experience here or is this sources say yeah?
Sources say all right.
So can this change?
I mean, of course anything can change, But I mean so is it potentially or could be a first quarter thing? And then depending what goes on in the economy. I mean there's a lot coming at consumers, business travelers the US economy right now. But could it change be it second quarter or second half?
An airline world things can always change very quickly, so can it change? Yes, there is a bit of a dynamic and airline world going on this year too, and that is that Easter has been moved into the second quarter from the first quarter, so we expected a little bit of softness in the first quarter. But I still think this feels like the you know, the basic economy customer is a little more concerned about their finances and
not traveling. Who cares what the cost is. And again, I think you need to see signals coming from the economy to make them feel more secure. I think to see demand pick up for second quarter.
Hey, George, well we have you in Washington, d C. I don't know if you've got a chance to even see this because it just broke in the last fifteen minutes or so. But NTSB Chairman Jennifer Homandy was speaking at a newser the NTSB making two emergency recommendations after that DCA crash. The NTSB recommending permanent helicopter restrictions near DCA. The NTSB also recommending an alternative helicopter route near DCA.
Just way in on the aftermath of this crash in the earlier part of this year, and the recommendations that the NTSB is making, what happens now.
Yeah, that sounds totally appropriate. I'm surprised it took this long. It's DCA's too busy of an airport to be running training flights around with the pilots under flight vision sorry night vision goggles. Sounds like exactly the right decision.
Hey, just real quickly thirty seconds left. Southwest Airlines ditching free check bags, the end of an era. I'm terrified to see what comes next from the industry. I mean, that's a big deal, right, but maybe good for them it is.
I mean Southwest is just becoming more and more like a full service carrier. Like everyone, They're looking for different ways to generate revenue from their customers. I think it'll help the premium program out as well. Right, the loyalty program, I should say, you know, if you're a loyalty member, you are going to get I think one free check bag.
I think you get an assigned seat. It's all about trying to drive people, not loyalty program generate revenue from it, something Delta does so well as one of your additional streams of income for the airline.
As someone who never packs lately, I know what it's like to pay some baggage fees.
And literally it's not even like it's like you exceed the fifty pounds limit when we travel, like you're going for a day, Carol.
George Ferguson, Thank you so much. Bloomerintelligence, Senior, Aerospace, Defense and Airlines Alice, by the way, Southwest up eight and a half percent.
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty All right, everybody.
Volatility persisting in US assets following yesterday's wrenching session definitely was a different one, that's for sure. We've seen an early rebound in stocks, erase gains that we've seen it rally again on those headlines of Ukraine ready to accept a US proposal for our thirty day truth. So we continue to see a lot of bouncing around the VIX.
We've seen it hovering just below thirty. It's a level that we talked about yesterday that our Market Live blog notes that when it goes above thirty, we have then tend to see stocks bounce up. So there's a lot going on and trying to make sense of what comes next. And we've got a great guest to get into it all.
Yeah, here in the studio, Jennifer Grancio is back with us. She's head of ETFs at TCW. She's a former CEO of Engine Number one. It was that little known hedge fund that successfully waged an activist battle against the integrated energy Giant, snagging three board seats and promising to push a low carbon future. Engine number one was bought by tc W.
Could be part of your bio forever.
You do know that.
I think she took on big oil and I got a board seats. Jennifer, could that be back with us?
First up?
Today's market activity? Yesterday's yes, you know that's behind us. We're still in the session today. We're seeing it bounce off the lows. Certainly, how has the investment narrative changed and how is it being reflected in ETF flows for you?
Yeah, I mean the markets love certainty and what we do not have right now is certainty, and so in many cases we may actually be lower than where valuations are. I mean, I'm not going to try to call that, but from an uncertainty perspective around not just tariffs, but the concept of tariffs, how pervasive, how long, how broad
across the different markets. So I think we continue to see that our view, we're an active manager or at TCW, so our view is, you know, you really have to understand the fundamentals and that allows us to keep investing even through the cycle.
So what does that mean actively in terms of fun flows or you know, I'd love to know if you guys saw anything interesting happening, not just this week or yesterday. But I feel like over the last couple of weeks the sentiment has definitely changing the market. So are you seeing money flow out of certain types of ETFs flowing into certain ETFs?
Give us an idea of what the environment's But I think with this level of volatility, what we're seeing initially is mostly institutional money movement. So I think we're seeing hedge funds have shorts, they're covering shorts. It's resulted in net buying, so I think a lot of the buying through volatility has probably been hedge funds and institutional. At the same time, we're seeing a very strong fixed income market. Where people are watching the equity market fall, not everybody
is appropriately positioned and prepared. In core fixed income, we've seen inflows there and I think it's been a little quieter in thematics. But our review would be this is an excellent buying opportunity, even.
If we see what he's moved lower in the near future. I mean, it's it's sometimes hard to catch a falling knife.
I think it's extremely hard to call the markets. And if you look at the last couple of years, we've had very strong performance in S and P the last couple of years, so it's correcting. We don't know where the bottom is. I think it's a mix of starting to come back in and reposition.
I'm going to use these words, is this time different, which you're never supposed to use when talking about the market. But is it Because we heard from President Trump over the weekend that he's one not ruling out a recession
too there could be some short term pain. It seems like his view on the markets, at least the way that he's communicated it and his White House has communicated it, is that it's okay if they go down, which I think is different than a lot of people thought he would look at the markets given what happened during his first term. So is this time different?
Well, I think so far. Behaviorally, his behavior is very different this time. From a TCW perspective, we think that the market was heading for a recession for quite a while now, so we think the market needed a correction like this. The question is, really, you know, where's the bottom, how does it bounce off of that? And where do we go from here? In some cases, sectors or high quality companies, right they may be price lower right now
than their fundamental value. So as an active manager, that's what we do all day, both in the bond and the equity portfolios.
You know, what's it like being an active manager?
Though?
In an administration where there are things coming and sometimes it's a move forward to move back, whether it's on tariffs or so and so forth. I mean, I guess I'm almost thinking like, what is activism in a Trump White House where there are concerns about conflicts of interest business people in areas now overseeing those areas? What is that? From a government perspective? How do you see that? Yeah?
I mean I think we see it as It's very hard to predict and so investing in based on trying to understand what's very hard to predict, hard to do, but positioning. So if you think about broad you know broadly the economy, this is a recession is probably coming. Job and growth wages have been slowing, and so how we deal with that as an active manager is it stick to the fundamentals. In the case of fixed income,
we've been positioned for recession. So performance Why is a fund like an ETF like Flexer is at the top of the performance group right now because we're positioned for something exactly like this right and in the equity space in the ETF, so a lot of what we do are very long term, durable, secular, thematic trends, and so we will see volatility, but we still think we're holding the names that really grow out of it.
Can you get a little bit more specific and share what kind of those the app for sure?
So on the equity yeah, So on the on the equity side, we manage one fund that is more of a defensive growth fund and its compounders is the name the tickers grow Gear g RW. And what Grow does is it holds a very concentrated portfolio of twenty five stocks, but they're not only the highest flyers, they're very high quality growth companies and so Grows actually outperformed the market
so far this year and has be positive. Then next to that, if you really want to invest in the trends that are shaping the economy for the years to come, and we fundamentally believe will add value in portfolios through time, and you need them to diversify from the kind of the mag seven. We run a strategy around power, which is p WRD Powered is the ticker, and a strategy on US supply chain and everything that's going on now it's just going to accelerate reshoring to the US. And
we run an AI fund. And while some AI names have gone down quite a lot, remember how much they've gone up the last few years. And we're investing in the broad trend.
Where specifically are you seeing value there? Because our own gena Martin Adams a Bloomberg Intelligence out with a note today that says some of the biggest s and P five hundred stocks by market caps still trade at an abnormally large premium despite vast underperformance so far this year.
Yeah, I mean, we hold some of those names in the AI fund that we run, which is an eight year track record, tickers a fed AI FD. But in AVID we also hold a name like Deer, where Deer is a manufacturing company that is using smart technology to be more efficient in how we handle water and fertilizer.
If I'm a farmer, I make more money. It's more efficient, And that's what I mean by for us, we're not just holding We are holding some of those big names, but we're also holding the companies are getting AI right first. And in the power and energy sector that continues to be an incredibly important sector because we're using more and
more and more power. Transportation, we hold GE, for example Empowered and GE is a company that makes airline engines really hard to do and then they do all the replacement and travel continues to go through the roof right as middle classes grow. Travel has been up I think almost every year except during COVID.
All right, we're gonna have to leave it on that note. So glad we got some time with you. Really appreciate it. Jennifer Grancio. She is head of ETFs over at TCW, usually on the West coast, but here in our studio.
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Let's get to it, folks, because we are just about twenty minutes away from the closing bell and with us right now is Doug Ramsey, chief investment officer at the Luthold Group, joining us right here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio on another volatile day. So great to have you here. How are you.
I'm doing well. It's great to be in New York City on a beautiful spring day.
It is beautiful, it feels good. The selling, the volatility. What is it telling you about trends in this market?
Well, I think things were pretty toppy looking before the top. And I say that because we had a lot of internal breakdowns of the sort that you typically see before a major market top right, small caps, underperforming transportation stocks, utilities. I could go down a list. We actually have list of eight bell weathers, and seven out of the eight
were sounding and warning. The only group that was confirming, to use market technicians terminology was the financial stocks were very strong into that market top which only three weeks ago, but so like sort of the standard cracks were there, and the issue of just looking at that in isolation is you will see the market look internally vulnerable like that from time to time during a healthy bull market,
and those things will just be resolved. Is the market push is higher, has done so that's well, go ahead. Is that is troubling all of those cracks coming at a time when the economy is more vulnerable than it was, say six to eight months ago in terms of income growth and that sort of thing.
Well, you know, you we got things to the notes that you sent our producer Paul Brennan. The firm cut net equity exposure of fifty percent in the Leuthold Core ETF and other funds, and it increased a short position in the Nasdaq one hundred. Yeah, when exactly did you do that?
It's it's been a I guess over time. I mean we came into the year probably fifty eight percent equity exposure. Now, because in our tactical strategies we run our long equities and equity hedges. When the market sells off, it will adjust down quicker than if you were just running like a sixty forty portfolio or something like that, or obviously if you're all equities, you keep at one hundred percent equities.
So I think we were fifty four percent last week, and then on Friday we had some things triggered, so we went to fifty percent. So now with the market down, you know, since Friday's closed, we're probably forty. So it's sort of like self adjusting downwards because of the way we approach.
At what point would you start adding to that equity position though, Like when do things get cheap enough or when does the market come down enough to do that.
On pure cheapness, It's gonna be tough. Yeah, there could be other.
Things just in terms of market action that would get us there, But we are really concerned about the prospect that the market sell off becomes an economically self fulfilling prophecy. So we've written now for a couple of years about the impact of the wealth effect as possibly having sustained the economic expansion in twenty three and twenty four despite the leading indicators, well all the leading indicators except the
stock market pointing down for a couple of years. Well, now you have what we would argue is the most important leading indicator pointing down and via the wealth effect, could deliver the final blow to the economic expansion.
Well, so the recession talk and the economic data points. I mean, I guess there's sentiment, right, which can turn into reality, and then there's of course fundamental So are the fundamentals breaking down? I mean, some of the technicals did, right, but I mean is that significant in its own right? But or is it fundamentally longer term fundamentals breaking down in your view?
Well, they could and respond to a break in market wealth and just I mean thinking And another reason we're so focused on the wealth effect is just the size of the stock market relative to the economy today. I mean, in the peak, just three weeks ago, total market cap of US equities was two hundred and five percent of GDP, more than two x. We're down to like one hundred and eighty five percent. So in percentage terms, it's an
eight and a half percent correction. In terms of the loss of wealth to the economy, it's a twenty percent hit relative to GDP. So to the extent that the stock market has always like a stock market decline has been one of the final catalysts that sort of nudges the economy into recession when it was already vulnerable. I think that's even more true today. And there's a great quote. I mean, at times like this it always comes to mind, but it was from George Soros about fifteen years ago.
Just in terms of summarizing this, this interaction between markets and the economy, he said, financial markets have a very safe way of predicting the future. Cause it so here we are with personal income growth only one point eight percent year over year. It was double that two years ago or a year ago. Real employment growth or I'm just I'm sorry, year over year non farm payrolls in
last Friday's report were one point three. We've never dropped to a level that low and not subsequently fallen into recession. So we're sort of at stall speed on income and employment growth and then lo and behold. And we haven't talked about the tariff impact. We're more focused on this, you know, significant blow from a loss in stock market.
Well, we're so sad we have to leave it there. Doug Ramsey, hopefully we can reconnect very very soon, a chief investment officer of course, of the Luthel Group.
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