Transforming Workplaces to Support Women Leaders

be a woman in the workplace, guys. So on the first day of Women's History Month, we are thrilled to be joined by Carol Gefner, Professor of the Practice of Governance and Management at USC's Sole Price School of Public Policy. Fight On Carol. Her new book, Building a New Leadership Ladder Transforming male dominated Organizations to support Women on the Rise is out now and she joins us via zoom from La Carol, great to speak with you, and thanks for being here. Talk to us about the book and

what's different about it. Because there's so many books and there's so much advice out there about how to survive the workplace as a woman. What's unique about yours? Yes, thank you and it's great to be here, and I do unders and that you are a trojan as well, Madison. So with that being said, most books, and you know, your audiences, as you said, has been smothered with books about leadership and gender and so on. Most books look

at the individual. Most books say, hey, if you do this, and you do that, and you learn this skill and you you know, use your voice, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, you are going to be more successful, you will advance in your career. Well that's not true. That's only half true. The other half of that story is that the organization needs to do a lot of hard work to change up their systems, their policies, their processes, and that's not being done. A lot it is being done in some cases.

But if that is not done, women actually do not tend to advance through the most senior levels, and the data supports that. So, Carol, you work with companies conversations. I mean, you know, this is not a new problem. Been talking about it for a long time. So what is it that companies? I mean, you tell them this, you know, we have these conversations on and on and on. We had a great guest yesterday that said, it's got to be enough when it comes to diversity and inclusion.

Enough talking like, let's see action. So tell me about some of these conversations that you have with companies and why they aren't getting it done. Sure, so I do work within the business sector, but also the public sector, so I have a broad point of view. And you know, to your point, this is an old conversation, and that's one of the reasons I wrote the book, because it's an old conversation. Let's change the conversation. So to get it done, the organization needs to invest all the way.

You know you can't. You can't open a d EI office, hire a d EI officer and just track numbers and think that that's where your job start stops. Actually that's where it starts. So in order to make a difference, and there are some organizations that are doing this. In fact, I have a client right now our company is working with to in fact change it up. What companies have to do is they have to be prepared for. First of all, a commitment that lasts. It costs money and

it costs other resources. You have to really change the policies, the practices, the procedures. And I know that sounds very heady, but if you don't do a deep dive and change what's going on in the organization, then what you've got is a bunch of individuals making decisions every day. And we're all human, we all have biases, myself included, and that's what tends to reign supreme. So as an example, our firm right now is working in a lot of spaces,

but one of them happens to be law enforcement. And the head of this particular organization is one hundred percent committed and has been working for almost two years to get this to happen, and they are now with us starting to look at all the relevant policies. You know, who comes in the door, who gets hired, who gets promoted, who gets transferred, what's happening to women along the way, and not just women, of course, all marginalized communities and

us and sectors and segments. So that's what's needed. And the starting point is a CEO, a president, a chief, whatever your context is. Where it starts is at the top and takes a lot of courage. So it starts at the top. But what is the single biggest company wide change that you have seen companies make after having worked with you that you've seen be successful. So that if you know, let's say a CEO is listening to this program right now, what's one change that they could make,

great question. So they make it more than just a priority. They make it more than just you know, the strategic priority for the next year. They build it into everything they do. They build it into their mission, they build it into their vision that their values. They I mean, these are the big changes when you ask me, what do I see? This is the work that our clients are doing, and they hold people accountable. In the business sector, here's here's what can happen. And some of actually my

clients have done. They tie incentive systems, that is, bonuses for people who are at levels where they get bonuses. They tie bonuses to progress, measurable progress. Is that there is that also and we're just because we're running out

a time, Carl. Is it also happening in a big way in publicly held companies because I just feel like we go through this with ESG metrics or impact on the climate that unless there's really some kind of penalty by investors or otherwise, a company really is just focusing rightfully. So perhaps you know, on returning value to shareholders. So it just got about thirty seconds left here. Are you

seeing this move in the public sector and publicly held companies? Yeah, yes, I wish I was Pollyanna, but I'm not so not enough. And you know, the wizzened the small segment of companies that are you know, sophificated ahead of the game, setting

the curve. They're the ones that understand that at the end of the day, if you only focus on return and ROI and shareholder results, you are missing the game in terms of retention and recruitment of top talent and all the other aspects that come along with building a great organizational culture, which actually is the glue for making this work. All right, Carol, thank you so much. Carol Gefner. She is Professor of the Practice of Governance and Management

at USC's so Prize School of Public Policy USC. You're all a monor and we love it. We know it, we love it. Her new book is called Building a New Leadership Ladder. You are listening and watching Bluebirg Radio