The Public’s Role in COVID-19 Vaccination

Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News. Well, really interested to talk to this next guest because I feel like we talked so much about vaccines from a medical perspective, but there's a social aspect to this as well, and really interested

to get into it with Monica Shock Spanna. She is medical anthropologist and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, and of course that is closely tied with the Bloomberg School of Public Health that's supported by Mike Bloomberg, the founder of Bloomberg philanthropy and Bloomberg LP, the owner of this radio station, Monica. Really nice to have you with Carol and myself. Thank you for having me.

Good afternoon. So I'm really fascinated by this because we spent a lot of time on this program talking to a lot of your colleagues at Johns Hopkins, talking to a lot of medical experts, and I feel like I know more than I ever thought I would about some of the medical aspects. But this report the Public's Role in COVID nineteen vaccination that your team has put together UH is really about the social side of this and

the public's acceptance. Tell us what you found. Well, the big headline here is that it's one thing to have a clinically successful vaccine, and we want that, we want safe and effective vaccine, But it's another thing to have vaccines that are socially acceptable that people are willing to take, that they have confidence in UM and feel that they're easy to get, and thus they're going to make UH

an effort to get them. So our group was interested in understanding what are those reasons that would make someone opt out of COVID nineteen vaccination or inadvertently miss out on COVID nineteen vaccination. So that was the focus of the group. And what did you find out, Monica, Well, what we find out is there's no one explanation as to why people are expressing hesitancy around vaccines in general and then more specifically about COVID nineteen vaccination. For some people,

the issue is safety. They're worried that there's a there's a sense of urgency and a rush to produce a vaccine and perhaps inadvertently along the way, safety is going to fall by the wayside. So for some people, it's

a safety concern. For others, such as members of the African American community, they have encountered a history where they there has been active abuse of of of them and their trust um and uh, there's uh instances in American history where men and women of African American descent have been experimented on, and they don't want to see themselves playing like any pig role for what would be a novel vaccine. And for some people the issue is going

to be cost. Is this something I can afford? Is can I get to it without having to take a long bus ride and potentially be exposed to COVID nineteen Um, do I have to have a caretaker for my kids so I can get away to get to the clinic. So then for them it's an issue of convenience and Monica, it's interesting, you know, I hear you talking about this, and I feel like we have gone through and maybe you're still going through a very similar station when it

comes to masks. You know, you had sort of this, you know, sort of people dividing on on sides for political reasons. This is in some ways just as important, maybe even more important. And I do think about things we've seen here in the New York City area around measles and and those sorts of things where if there's a group of people who just opts out that has a pretty profound societal effect. You've put your finger right on it. This public health intervention is about the community.

It's not necessarily just about individual health. So if I get vaccinated, yes I will get some modicum of protection against disease, but that protection in my body will actually help protect the people around me because I then am not communicating or transmitting the virus. So it's it's a win win situation. Um. And yes, so we have had recent instances in in the US present where there are sectors of society who are opting out of vaccine, harming

themselves but also potentially harming the larger community. So it's not just about the anti vax community. I think what's really interesting in what you're getting into, Monica is something you know we all have, Jason and I certainly I've been talking about a lot since the virus began, and certainly since what happened in Minneapolis, just about the inequalities

in our world. And I do wonder about access. And I do wonder too, you know, the responsibility of kind of our government in all of especially when some of the vaccine makers or you know, the big farmer that's racing on getting to UM, working on racing to get a vaccine, or saying we're going to offer it pretty inexpensively, Like you do wonder, how do you make this so that everybody easily has access to it? Do you make it free essentially to protect society and protect people everybody?

That's an excellent question. Uh. The judgment of our working group is there there should be no cost associated with accessing this facting um, and that will remove one of the biggest hurdles for people to to get it. It's not the only hurdle, but it's an important one. And I think not only is it about the economics, it's also about the sense that our government is investing our money in our well being. We and you know these

are public dollars and so we would derive benefit. All Right, Well, this is I hope the first of several conversations we have about this. This is critically important and we really appreciate it, especially as we get closer to a vaccine. What the government does, what private institutions do like yours, is going to be critical to us all getting back

to some semblance of normal and staying healthy. Carol, Right, and this idea of access that every everybody can equally access it, This is really important, um, and this could be very divisive in our society again if we don't get this right. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. An interview earlier with one of our experts at Johns Hopkins talking about antibodies. Let's go a little bit deeper on that with Michelle Cortes,

senior Health and science reporter for Bloomberg. She has been doing just an incredible job covering this as she always does, really finding her moment as a journalist. I feel like, here, Carol, and if you're not reading her, you're missing out and you're not fully understanding what's going on out there. Michelle joints on the phone from Minneapolis. So, Michelle, antibodies. We all want them, um, but maybe some news that they're not quite as greater or they don't last quite as

long as we had hoped. Right. Well, just like everything else with this coronavirus infection, we're learning so many new things about the way our body react to novel hapogens and what that means. And one of the things that researchers are finding now is that the antibodies that we make, the one that basically primed our immune system to fight off future infections, might not stick around as long as we had hoped for to keep this coronavirus in check.

And that's a little bit worrisome from the vaccine and herd immunity perspective, right, I mean, when we keep thinking about the ways we hope to get ahead of this, herd immunity was one of those. I kind of feel like Michelle an important aspect of it, right, Well, herd immunity is this idea that once you've been in, once you've seen this virus, once you've been infected yourself or you've gotten an immunization, then you're no longer a repository

for it. You can't pass it along. You're basically like the free kid in tag, right, But so you're not going to go get anyone else, so you're good to go. The idea that those that free space only lasts for maybe three months or six months, or less than a year, that's what these study results are suggesting. And of course, again very early. What they found was that the antibodies have a half life that means they're about half gone

after seventy two days on average. Was a very small study, just thirty four patients, but that that would suggest that certainly you're not going to have a lifelong immunity from this coronavirus infection, and maybe it wouldn't get us along far enough to protect everybody in order to get the

virus under control. More broadly, so, Michelle, I feel like even those of us like Carol and myself who are watching this fairly closely, we're not watching it nearly as closely as you are, and I think we all can get a little distracted, you know, like a dog with a bunch of squirrels running around, Like what what what you know? In terms of like what is new and trending?

Break this down for us, like what are the as you think about the last couple of weeks, what are the most important medical developments that we should really be paying attention to? Right? Well, the most important things that have come in the last week or two, honestly, are the advances in the vaccine initiative. And the point there is that it has been largely phenomenal. The pace at which the vaccine development is happening has never been seen

before in science, across almost anything. When I first started getting into this business, the work was around each idea and aid and my god, it was depressing. Four years. In this particular case, the virus itself hasn't even been around for one year, right, we're looking at about seven eight months now, and the fact that they have a vaccine that is producing antibodies again the part of your immune system that fights off infection is really astonishing. I

have Oh go ahead, no, no no, no, you finished? You finished? Please? I was just gonna say it's it's all still so so early. The fact that we haven't been that nothing has come up to say, oh, this is a you know, it's not only a black diamonds, like they're all going down black diamonds, but nobody's sawn off a cliff on any of these yet is astonishing. I think people need to remember that that will happen, and when that happens,

everyone will panic. But there's a lot of efforts underway, and when bad news comes, as it will, don't freak out. But the fact that it hasn't come yet is astonishing. I do have to say a register, and I got a little bumped because I feel like, until we get a vaccine, we're kind of stuck. Right until we get

a vaccine, we're kind of stuck. Yes, And then what my story is suggesting, worrisomely is that even a vaccine might not be what everyone's thinking is, yeah, that a vaccine is everyone's get out of jail free card, and and maybe not, but again early days, but don't count on it. Have a great Thursday, everybody, Thanks Michelle, get out there, don't don't be worried, but worry a little bit. All right, Michelle Cortes, thank you so much, senior Health

and Science reporter for Bloomberg. Her work just astonishing on this, so follow her at Faye Cortes to check out her latest stories. It is unbelievable, right, She gets into the weeds and really makes us so much smarter in terms

of understanding what's going on. And I do think, you know, my message always with her is this is so tricky and we keep learning things every day, and that's why it makes it so difficult if you are listening to Bloomberg Business Week, Well, you know, we talk about the go to writers and the folks that you really want to follow on certain topics. Lauren Atter certainly falls into that category, and her work that she and some of our colleagues have done on Jewel has just been riveting

and must read for sure. Lauren is a project and investigations reporter for Bloomberg, joining us on the phone from Los Angeles along with Joel Weber, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. He joins us from Massachusetts. So Joel fair to say, this has been and sometimes sometimes sort of hard to read a series of stories because of all the candidly like moufeasance and twists and turns. Uh, this

one is no exception. Yeah, And and I think the thing about the story um uh and Jewel is how much we we still kind of are waiting to figure out where the FDA is going to come down on Jewel. And but what Lauren really was able to dig in here, and from the moment that I've heard her talk about this story, I've just been like utterly, like so excited to like publish it. Um. It is really uh something about um the product timeline, and there's big insights into

Jewel that she's sort of uncovered along the way. But the main critical thing that she's really unearthed here was that the product UM became very popular very quickly, but there were there were some subtle changes that got made along the way that maybe didn't have f d A sanctioning. And when that happened, Um, now after the fact the f d A is it will will start to decide what the company's fate is for those decisions. UM, and Lauren like, take take us through what you learned in

the significance of it. Yeah, thanks so much. UM. You know, it's fascinating really to follow the company and follow their meteoric rise. Really Um. They're one of the fasket growing companies in Silicon Valley, and really Uh followed the Silicon Valley playbook, which is moved fast embracings. So as they're growing um from the very beginning, they're up against huge competitors from the tobacco industry and it's really a race

to the top essentially. And as Jewel releases its product, they realize that there are some major problems with the design and functioning of it. The pods or leaking the nicotine into people's mouths, and they were also leaking into the device itself, which was causing it to essentially break. So that was a huge problem for this startup that was trying to compete in a really rough and tumble marketplace. And normally, under normal circumstances, the company would just fix

it and move right on. But the challenge here was that the FDA was scrambling to really get ahold of this new and rapidly growing e cigarette market. So they basically said, look, we're going to freeze the market. No companies that are currently selling their products can continue to sell them, but you cannot make any changes or modifications to that product, otherwise that would be a new product

and you would not be allowed in the market. So basically, Jewel was faced with the problem do they go ahead and fix their product that was actually breaking or do they abide by the FDA's rules. And they were had so much venture capital backing they had their backs up against the wall. They ended up making these changes essentially

fixed the product and consumers never would have known. But it was something that ended up being kind of a closely held secret within the company that they made these changes, and it really helped their product become the number one

cigarette and selling cigarette in the entire world. So they did what they kind of should have done, right, Lauren, is they fixed the product there was a flaw, but in doing so, they have potentially or will get themselves in trouble with regulators bottom line, Right, So this is going to be the million dollar question how the FDA

is going to treat this information. So right now, the future of Jewel literally rest in the hands of the FDA, because every sigarette company, including Jewel, is now having to apply to the agency to get the agency's authorization to allow them to continue selling their products. So already the FDA is heavily scrutinizing Jewel, and um, you know, the FDA has been digging around Jewel for a very long time trying to figure out did they do something wrong,

did they modify their products illegally? Did they know did they do something they weren't supposed to do which led to this five million kids being addicted to e cigarette? And so the fact that this never surface and now the FDA is presented with this information, it's going to be a big question whether or not how they will treat that information. But used to say that it's potentially damaging to the company in the sense that their fate rests in the hands of the FDA right now, So, Lauren, um,

what could uh the FDA designed to do? And also let's keep in mind here and give us a sense of all the other government agencies that are also interested in Jewel A cigarettes right. So, basically, under the law, the Food Draining Cosmetic Act, it said that the cigarette companies or tobacco products that are regulated by this law were not allowed to modify the product and if they did modify their products, it would render the new tobacco product.

And if that, if they didn't have authorization to be selling that new tobacco product. That meant that their product was essentially on the market without authorization and could be subject to remove all So technically, I mean the Jewel will have all kinds of defenses and arguments to this. So it's it's it's not clear that the FDA has a clear pathway here, but in theory, the fd A potentially has the authority to remove the product from the market.

It's unclear whether or not they would take that drastic action. So that's one piece of it. Yes, and you mentioned the other regulators. Yes, there are multiple government agencies that are have been an our investigating Jewel, including the Federal Trade Commission. That agency is looking at whether or not the deal, the humongous deal that Jewel did with Altrea with anti competitive um The Department of Justice is probing

Jewel UM. I discovered this in my reporting that the company UM that they outside the federal prosecutors in San Francisco are looking at, among other things, whether or not Jewel was truthful with with um UH. Federal agents, including the FDA in its correspondence and communications. Um and the Securities and Exchange Commission is very interested in as well, um um in the types of communications that the company made to investors and whether or not it was forthcoming

on that front too. So yeah, there's a lot of interest in the company. There's a lot of steak Jewel. I think the most important thing to remember is that Jewel essentially has a single product. This is a company that does not have a big basket of products, has one product. And if they do not get the FDA's authorization to move forward, they are kind of they're left without any product to sell. But they could, Lauren, we just got about forty seconds left here. I mean, they

could say listen, this was a safety issue. Ultimately, the company did the right thing. Their various arguments that the company could make, including that um and that's certainly one that I'm sure that they will be will attempt to make. Absolutely there are definitely defenses that the company has that they'll put forward, UM, no doubt. All right, Lauren at

a terrific reporting on Jewel. You've been following the story so closely, and I should note not to spoil the end of the story, but you have a nice, nice sort of wrap at the end where you talk about how the company has moved from San Francisco, as you said, following the Silicon Valley playbook, now to Washington, d C. Its headquarters there because this is where the fight is in many ways, so an interesting sort of emblem of where the company is. Lauren Eddard joining us from Los Angeles.

Our thanks to her, as well as to Joe Weber, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. Yeah, and check out the new issue on newsstands on the Bloomberg terminal and of course at Bloomberg dot com room a journal. Yeah, but you let me drive. Oh no, no, no, no home honey, please, I'll do the ding drivel exst me. I want to drive, just drive, baby, the questions trying. This is the drive to the Globe commune. Thanks, we'll drive us down on Bloomberg Radio this Indeed, it's time

for the Drive to the close with us. Is Deepak Puri, chief investment Officer of America's at Deutsche Bank Wealth Man Management, joining us on the phone in New York City. Depart. Nice to have you here with Jason and myself. Uh, you know, an interesting day, interesting couple of weeks. We're starting to get earnings. How do you see the market environment right, now, thank you, Carol. Interesting is very benign word I and I agree. It's been interesting, but mostly

surreal for me this entire year. To be honest, Um, I think the volatility, even though it has come down quite dramatically from the March highs, it's still elevated and I think that's going to continue as we enter the really the last stretch of a general election year. So you know, if this was a normal year, the higher volatility time would be in front of us, because that's

what usually happens. You know, right after Labor Day September October tends to be really volatile before the presidential election. Given the kind of fear we have had, it seems to be a little bit lower at this point. But I think from now on, the sort of the initial bounce that we have seen in the economy is going to start to stall, and that's going to tread a

whole host of issues for investors. So it's I am suggesting at least my clients to still be bracing for a highly charged up environment and markets as we enter the final leg of this calendar year, and so Dpack we're obviously in the midst of earning, so we don't have a full read yet, but so far, what do you make of these second quarter reports? Because they were eagerly awaited, both in terms of the numbers but also in terms of the commentary and the guidance. What's your

feel so far? Uh, Jason, I think the markets are looking past the second quarter, and I think we will all expecting the second quarterings to be the bottom uh for the you know, the expectations were so low, so I would not be surprised that if at the end of the quarter we end up getting sort of sixty to sixty five percent beats on the ets and you know, a little bit lower on the revenue side. I think the markets are looking beyond maybe yes, what kind of

guidance companies are going to give? And even there, you know, thirty five percent of the companies are actually not providing any specific guidance related to COVID, how COVID is going to impact their bottom line or their revenue. It's it's still foggy for them, and hence it becomes a little bit difficult for folks like myself to even gauge, you know, what the trajectory of the earnings is going to be as we enter the second half of the and beyond.

Having said that, I think so far it's been a mixed bag, you know, especially with the banks behind us, which I think I'm much better prepared this time around than the GFC, and even some of the techniques that are started to show. I think you can see that the revenue uh, you know, impact hasn't been that so there. And what I think what's going to happen is that the post COVID recovery is going to be really dependent on technology, you know, rebuilding of the health care system,

and it's going to be a green recovery. You know, a lot of talk about the infrastructure and sustainability. So I think these three sort of mega trends are gonna you know, exacerbate in a post COVID environment. That was interesting. You said tech, you said green, and what was the other one healthcare? Health care? Yeah, And I do feel like health care has been a system you know, often in times of stress, right, that's when we start to figure out better ways to do some do things because

we have to. And I see it even as I slowly make my way back to the health care sector for routine things that I feel like it's become a much more efficient place, because I have to be exactly right, and I think it's you know, if there is a lesson learned from the COVID epidemic, it is that how sort of dysfunctional everything has been. UM. I think we are a little bit behind as the country come paid

to other countries in their way of handling UM. There was not even though we were ranked number one, and that John Hopkins very often coded report, we didn't really you know, at least from what I can see as of today, end up being a number one, you know, in terms of our infection rate, mortality, to kind of strain our healthcare system had to go through. You know,

I think a lot needs to be done. We spend the fortune in novels, clubs from one thing tanks study that I read, and it doesn't feel like with all that spending that the the output has been that efficient. So to your point, I think this might give us a pot self reflect and maybe we've become a bit more efficient going forward and actually use technology a lot more so DPAC. Before we let you go, just have to ask you about sort of the one to punch that we've seen across the early part or the the

so far. Maybe it's not early the so far of this pandemic. In terms of fiscal and monetary response, all eyes are on Watchton. Now for the fiscal side, where do you look to as an investor now for essentially relief and rescue. Is it all fiscal at this point? No. I I don't think you can rule up monetree policy completely. Uh. You know, even though I think the FED they're getting close to the election, is probably done a lot more

in the front tent. So the first half of the year is really where they came out with the big, more aggressive policy actions. That doesn't mean that they cannot do something. It needs to be Keep in mind, we have two effluencing meetings from now till the election date and three unemployment reports. So I don't think we have enough data points now to substantially alter the sort of the you know, the take that the FED has made.

I think on the fiscal side, a lot has been done and that has been one of the the you know, the silver lining, but a lot really needs to be done.

As we have said, and other commentators have said, you know, the recovery is stalling and for us, this is going to be a steep recession and somewhat of muted recovery, and for us to gain that speed where we really have that escape velocity to go back to a pre COVID level of economic activity and the labor market conditions, A lot needs to be done on the fiscal side, and I think for the time being at least a debt overhang discussion should be left for subsequent years because

right now, the bigger problem is whether you're going to have, you know, a g d P rather than the concern with regards to debt to GDP. Right you've got to rebuild that economy so you have an economy to come back to. UM. Deepac always thoughtful, UM, thank you so much,

really appreciate it. Deepak Pury, chief Investment Officer America's at Dirty Bank Wealth Management, joining us on the phone from New York City, and I feel like he's mirroring Jason how we kind of kicked off that you rightfully pointing out that the job was claimed today, you know, reminding us that things are not getting better and maybe getting worse.

And there are concerns, as he said, you know, things starting to stall out and depending on what we get from Washington, you know we still need relief to make sure that there is still essentially an economy to come back to exactly. Thanks so much for listening to Bloomberg

Business Week. Download the podcast on Itunese, Southcloud, Bloomberg dot com, but wherever you get your podcasts, and of course you can always listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News