The Importance of Contact Tracing and Testing

Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News. We recently talked with the head of north Will Health. It's a massive hospital and healthcare system in New York State. They have seen the strains and stresses and really the devastating impact on patients

brought on by COVID nineteen. Back with us and with us, I should say, is Bruce Farber, chief of Infectious Diseases at Northwell Health, on the phone from Inhasset, New York. Dr Farber, it is really great to have you here with us. UM we've learned a lot by talking to

the head of your hospital system. Tell us a little a little bit about kind of where we are, because it's an interesting week where we're seeing more reopening, but yet we're hearing of, you know, cases now again in South Korea in places that have kind of been held up as a gold standard in terms of dealing with the virus. So what's important about what we need to know on this Monday, May eleven? Yeah, I agree, it's Um,

it's a very funny time in New York. The number of new cases is down significantly, deaths or down significantly. At our hospital system. We're almost under a thousand hospitalized people with COVID from a peak of four thousand, So that's a huge decrease from what it was and that's all very good news. Um. Yeah, I still, and I think many people still think that this is going to be a game of whack a mole um and that

we're clearly not out of the woods. We are making contingency plans for what the fall might look like when flu comes back. At the same time, I still think that there's not enough herd immunity in the community or in the world to think that this is going to be over any time in the foreseeable future without a vaccine, and that's not around the corner. And so Dr Farward talked to us, if you, if you will for a minute more about the New York City area. I mean,

this is where you live and work. UM. I mentioned UH ear last week when we were talking about North Well, I'm very fortunate to live next to Phelps Hospital here in Westchester, which I believe is part of your UH system and certainly have taken advantage of your good care over the years. It has been incredibly intense in the Tri state area. What do we know about the state of this UH here in the New York City area right now? Well, like I said, things are much better

and the hospital systems are now functioning. But remember, it's going to take three things for us to really be able to open up more than UM than we are now. And that's going to be one a dramatic decrease in the number of new cases. And based on the state's guidance, I think we basically still have to have them roughly about to roughly about two to three hundred per day in the entire New York City area. UH that's one thing. The second thing is we need more testing. Any opening

up this contingent on us massively increasing our testing. And although testing has increased log rhythmically in the last three weeks, it's going to have to go up even more. We're talking about testing all admissions to the hospitals, doing surveillance, testing and people in the hospitals, testing people in nursing homes, testing people in other environments, going for elective surgery, going for procedures, going for cancer chemotherapy, testing employees, um. So

the testing has to increase. And then the third component, which New York is not ready to do, although they're talking about it, is contact tracing because, after all, to really open up we need to have less cases, we need to have frequent testing. And thirdly, we need to have contact tracing so that when a mini outbreak breaks out, if you will, we can contain it quickly before it

turns into a massive hotspot. Dr Farvar helped me out because I feel like we've been talking about testing and the need for it, and I feel like if there's one thing everybody agrees is testing and then ultimately tracing in order to really reopen up this economy, We've been doing this for several weeks now, and yet we're still talking about there's not enough tests out there. What's holding it back? What's the problem right now? There's several things.

Number one is the supply chain is just not there. I mean, you need certain re agents, you need certain swabs UM, and they're really not enough of them around despite the the reassurances from from some politicians, they're not there. You just can't get them. Secondly, a lot of people are dependent on point of care. Remember there's base sically two forms of these tests occurring. One is point of care that's a rapid test that can be done in a relatively in a two to three hour period of time.

That is used when you need very quick results somebody coming into an e er, somebody about to go for surgery, somebody who's about to go for a procedure, or in a community UM, we really want to know right away in terms of segregating people UM. And then there's the much more reliable and tests that can be done on

in much greater volumes UM in laboratories. But the turnaround time there is going to be at least nine and it's often twelve hours in terms of delivery and getting it and that sort of thing, And there's a very short supply of the point of care tests. They're just not out there to be had at the present time. As a matter of fact, paradoxically, our numbers of point of care testing has decreased in the last um we

strictly due to supply problems. Are laboratory based testing is increasing significantly, so just briefly, the point of care testing. So it sounds like we need both. But I mean, is it something that the federal government should be acting much more aggressively on And we've only unfortunately got about forty seconds before we'll take a break and tuck a

it more. Well, you get into the politics of it, But yes, I mean, I think we've been reassured so many times by the federal government that there are more than adequate tests, um, but anybody working here knows that's just not the case. I mean, they're just not available. I think the labs are doing the best they can. I think we're gearing up as fast as we can.

We do have enough sterrology capacity. We can test over ten thousand people a day for sorology, But unfortunately sorology is helpful from an epidemiologic point of view, but it is not going to allow us to rapidly distinguish who's infecting who's not well. Let's continue our conversation with Dr Bruce far where he's at Heath of Infectious Diseases at Northwell Health here in the New York area. Dr Farber, let's just go there and talk about what does reopening

look like? And, as Carol said just a few minutes ago, what's a realistic timeline, especially when we're thinking about our area here. Well, I think it's going to happen in stages. I don't think there's any doubt about that. Look, I do believe that it's much less likely to get this

infection when you're outside, particularly with social distancing. It's not only easier to social distance, but the wind, the weather allow this virus to become much less contagious when you're outside than when you're in a confined space with poor air exchanges. UM. So I could potentially see over the summer outdoor restaurants opening with a lot of space, UM, indoor restaurants maybe maybe later, you know, with a lot of space. Um. The last thing, I don't think we're

gonna see open for many months. Are going to be large venues broadway uh, basketball games, sports events, concerts, all of the things that unfortunately make New York such a vibrant city and bring in tourists. It's just hard to see that happening, uh for at least many, many, many more months to come. Dr Farber, what about though, Okay, teams playing professionally, but there's nobody in the stand, so at least broadcast organizations can be broadcasting games. Can teams

play safely and easily? It's a really good question. And I've been working with one of the professional teams on this, and it can be done, but it has to be done with so much detail, and it's not going to be done the way it used to be done. It will literally have to be in a very closed environment where players cannot leave for a period of time. They will have to be tested on a regular basis. It's going to be harder for certain sports like football, much

harder because of the number of people involved. It's not clear that anybody's going to be able to pull it off, and particularly if there's a shortage of tests, because there's gonna have you're gonna have to test all of these people very very often, probably every two days, three days at the most, maybe more often. So it's not a matter of just taking the fans out of the stadium and then putting on these games. There's a lot of

work and a lot of problems. We talked with Paul Raybell and the Premier Lacrosse Lea because he is doing a self quarantine two week tournament. But basically, once the players are tested and quarantined, they're in it for a couple of weeks. And I do wonder if for professional sports, maybe baseball to actually take off. You're talking about teams having to quarantine themselves, probably from their families for uh sustained period of time in order for them to play. Yes,

and it'll change the schedules. Back to back games will be more difficult to do based on the testing and the risk of exposure to the people. Um, yes, it's going to be a different game if if it if it comes off, and it's not going to be easy, and uh, it will have to be limited to a few sites. By the way, I don't think that you know, the travel will allow this to be a regular season.

It will be entirely different, and so dr Farber. What are we learning so far from other states that have had lower infection rates, lower incidences of COVID nineteen cases that maybe we can take from and learn from as

as this country sort of reopens in different stages. Well, I think we actually learn more in some respects from other countries than we do for different states, because states have been all over the place, and a lot of what's happened in states to me so far is it's too early to say that they're really going to be spared or whether they've been literally lucky to date based on their population density and and other things, because certainly

um jury is still out on all those issues. But in the countries like South Korea and Indonesian Singapore that have done a pretty good job, what you notice is that they've done pretty much what we've done, only they've ramped up testing enormously. They've done a lot of contact tracing, they've changed the work habits of people, they've did ongoing social distancing, and most importantly, they're seeing many outbreaks and many reintroductions that they have to clamp down on immediately

and isolate those people. And unfortunately it's a lot harder in a big heterogeneous country like ours, particularly in a density like New York, you're gonna have to be a quick twenty seconds. But offices and things like New York and community, that's going to be really difficult to work out. Yes, staggered hours. People probably will change the way they work. They'll come in in the morning, shift in the office and you know, stay later. Um, Yeah, there's gonna be

a lot of changes. Yeah, absolutely. All right, Well, we will look forward to keeping touch with you. Thank you so much. This was really really worthwhile for us and for our listeners. Bruce Farber, he is the chief of infectious Diseases at Northwell Health. Johinius on the phone from a little bit totally totally. This is Bloomberg Business Week

with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. I've got to save ourselves from going down a major rabbit hole here, because Joel Webber and I are instant messaging right now talking about the Big Lebowski and I could spend the rest of the show talking about that. We're not going to talk about that. We're gonna talk about

a terrific story that Devin Leonard wrote. He has projects and investigations reporter one of our favorites for Bloomberg Business Week, Johinius on the phone from New York, as is the aforementioned editor of the magazine, Joe Weber. He's on the phone from Brooklyn. So this aggression will not stand, Joel. But I turned it over to you to help us understand what's going on in the world of small business. Uh, boy, talk about a moment in time that group of businesses

have just been really sideswiped. Um. And and this is obviously something that UM Bloomberg has been covering closely from the moment that pandemic really started to escalate. Because if there's a you know, really a backbone of this country's economy in the U S, it's it looks like small business. Uh roughly one out of every two jobs in the country probably are small business related. And UM, so they've

really been bearing the brunt of it. And Uh, as we've sort of seen this story evolved, we put death in into the mixt to sort of step back and really kind of help us make sense of things like P P P. And as he kind of dug into it, it just was like such a rich narrative and also one that like, look, this is a story that were this is the opening opening chapters of it. We're looking

at something here that's gonna last for weeks, months, years. Um, Devin, what did you talk to so many small business people for this story? Where did what kind of takeaways and lessons did you have? Well, just really quickly, just just for the record, um, my editor who did a great job in the story he cut out by big Lebowski joke, I said that the SBA abides anyway, I just since

you guys brought it up. But what I found out was that, I mean, this was a really well intentioned thing that Congress did as part of the Cares Act, the Paycheck Protection Program, but it was rushed out. It was intended, you know, it was sort of sort of framed as something that would that would really help small businesses, but really it's much more designed to well to do what it has protect people's paychecks, keep people on the payroll these of these small businesses. But a lot of

the small businesses are struggling. They've been ordered to shut and for for the for the proprietors, they have to decide, well, do I just pay all my workers to do nothing, or do I somehow hope that I can use the money later when we're opening up in an uncertain economy. So it's a lot of money, you know, more than six hundred billion dollars, but it's going to have the impact that that Congress. I think that we all hoped. I I don't. I don't. No, I don't think it's

really clear at all. Well, Devin, so what you know through your reporting and talking to small business and you have a you know, really great read and story um reality of Sarah McNally, who runs you know, well known bookstores, certainly here in the New York City area, And I just do wonder is it the program itself, the size of the program, the access to small business loans? Where what have you found out that's you know what's breaking

down here. Well, Congress sort of, as as often happens, Congress passes along allocates you know, you know, the amount

of money to be spent on it. But how it's actually going to be implemented, that's the left up to to the agency that's actually going to be running the program, or in this case, the Small Business Administration and the you know, the U. S. Department of Treasury, and they together they wrote these rules kind of after the fact that's going to lock in small business owners to this sevent uh you know, had spend seventy five percent on

payroll or you don't get a loan forgiven. And the whole thing was presented kind of as a grant program to begin with, so you know, you have that, of course, Carol, on top of well, people had you know, people had heard had hard times getting loans because rather than put the money through the Small Business Business Administration, which has had a tough time handing out to the loans directly before and you know, situations like Katrina and even you know,

more recently in Hurricane Sandy, they basically had the SBA guarantee loans and then the you know, banks would would

hand them out. And you know, as we all know now and as Bloomberg has reported extensively on UM and done a fantastic job on you know, you know, jpm Oregan, big banks like that they favored their existing clients first because again the rules were unclear and they didn't want to take a chance or they were you know, they didn't want to rush to take a chance on a bunch of you know, first time bars credit histories that

they were completely unfamiliar with. So actually that given that leads to sort of like a chapter in the story that you did, which is ultimately about you know, small business owners who are you know, almost turned away from the big institutions and one of the places that they've turned to our sort of smaller or community banks. Um. And at first that wasn't really an option. But then there's been sort of cast of characters that happens to

show up in your story. Told me about those people, um, and sort of how how there's been sort of a sort of middleman aspect to how these loans have gone down, well, at least at least in this case. So you start with Sarah McNally. She owns four bookstores. You know, she'd had two bookstores up until about six months ago, and then she opened two more, double the size of her company than the COVID you know, the COVID nineteen crisis hits.

And um, she has to decide what to do. I started talking to her before she even went to you know, try try to get a you know, a p P P loan. But because like a lot of these small business owners, they operate in really slow margins. What they don't want and want is more debt. But she decided she kind of had to go for it because bookstores are non essential businesses, so she had to pretty much

close down. She is operating an online business, but that that doesn't she can't employ you know, a hundred and fifteen employees on that revenue. So she goes to Bank of America. It becomes pretty pretty clear that you know, pretty walked about a week or so that um, it's that the only thing is possible is maybe getting loans for two of her stores, and she has actually has

two stationary stores, so it's six and all. So she kind of panics, calls all these people, winds up talking to her optometries of all people, and he's in a similar situation. He's gone, he's he's tried to apply online at JP Morgan Chase, he's been turned down, and but he has this connection through his um optometric association to this because a loan brokerage out of Long Island, and these guys basically deal with all these non banks, and

they wind up connecting Sarah with a non bank. It's it's called Fountain Head in uh in Florida, and the bank approves her, but doesn't get a chance to actually submit the loan to to the SBA for for guarantee. That's right when the money runs out. So so I I just think people were just running around like crazy because if you didn't have a relationship with a really big bag, where did you go? And and and and and so so so that you know you have a

a mess right there with that. Luckily she she was able to find somebody, but then she gets alan and now she's kind of like, you know, she's quite to

do with it. But anyway, well, and there's a great question that's brought up in your store, and I highly recommend that everybody go read it because there's so much information in there, but about whether or not p p P is really kind of thought about, is really as pro worker as they are saying it is, And and that's something I don't think has really gotten a lot of attention so rightfully, so um, you're giving it, Devin, So check out the story. It's going to be in

the magazine, on newstands, online and on the Bloomberg. Devin Leonard wrote it. He is Bloomberg Business Week Investigations reporter and also joining us, of course, was Joe Webber, Bloomberg Business Week editor, on the phone from Brooklyn. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on

Bloomberg Radio. Let's continue our economics discussion, but take it in a slightly different direction with one of our face, Andy Brown back with this editorial director for Bloomberg New Economy and his column a provocative headline, as it often has, Trump is trying to open Pandora's box. Andy Jones's on the phone from New Hampshire. Alright, what's going on here? Ab? Yeah, So, look, the the central idea here is at um. You know, at the very heart of this global pandemic UM is

a mystery. UM. And that mystery quite simply is where where did this virus come from? So we know that the outbreak was in Wuhan in China, and UM scientists are pretty sure that it jumped from bats to humans via another kind by animals. UM. You know, but UM, there are huge gaps in our understanding. We don't know what kind of animal. We don't know. Is it a was it a farm animal, a pig for instance, Was it a wild animal, a pangl in Um how did

it spread so quickly? Um? Could things have been done to halt it before it it spread widely in Mohan and then to the rest of the world. Um. And so you know, in the absence of answers of this, and all we have is is basically information coming out of China, and much of the world doesn't believe what's coming out of China. We know that there were cover ups. The Chinese media has reported that, you know, uh, the Chinese authorities may have way lobal the numbers of infections

and deaths in Wuhan. And in the absence of that, you've had all of these conspiracy theories taking root, particularly in the in the American political right. And one of these theories is sort of what I call the Pandora's box theory, which is that you know, it came out of a lab in Wuhan, a a high security lab where they where they're studying viruses. It was an accident, um.

And just as you know, Pandora's sort of you know, reckless curiosity um led her to open the box and out of of course, in Greek mythology, outcomes sick all the evils of mankind, sickness and death and poverty and toil and all the rest of it. Uh, and that that was exactly the the uh what happened in in Wuhan, that that China unleashed all of these terrible evils on on mankind. So you know, and and that's and that that that theory is widely believed now in the White House,

particularly you know, um Centator of State Pompeo. And he's he said earlier, you know, there's enormous ever what is happening. In fact, there's there is very little intact, there's no evidence at all that he's been able to produce UM to you know, to to to to uh substantiate um this conspiracy theory. So you know, I mean it just

it just seems like we need a global inquiry. Right. Well, I have to say too, and Andy, one of the things that I found most telling was some of the injurviews over the weekend with scientists who said, if you look at the virus and you look at the genetic makeup of it, you understand that this was not um something that was you know, made in a lab. And so that there's just an overwhelmingly amount of scientific evidence that says, okay, where this came from. But put that aside.

In the meantime, you just have these increased tensions and problems once again coming from both the US and Chinese sides. And you do wonder what this means going forward for what's already a fraught relationship, right and and not a great one. And you do wonder what this means you open up Pandora's box and and how much worse does it get? And then what are the repercussions in terms of us coming back from this virus on a health can you know basis as well as an economic basis, right?

I mean we need yeah, for sure, you know, we we need answers to this. Um, you know, where where did this virus come from? Lessons need to be learned. I mean, we need to be better prepared for the next one. We're living in an age of pandemics. Um, we need to know, you know, what what should have been done that wasn't done. There are all sorts of you know, answers that scientists that that government officials that you know, citizens, we all need to we all need

answers to these really basic questions. And you know, and yet, uh, it appears that that that China is adamantly against anything that looks like an international inquiry. In fact, the Australian foreignment is to u versa pain. When she suggested it a week or so ago, the Chinese ambassador to Canberra sort of been a rather veiled way. You threatened, that threatened, you know, trade sanctions against Australia, said, you know that the Chinese people may not uh by by Australian beef

and wine and so on. Um. You know. So it's it's politically almost impossible, um for China to agree to this, because of course, any independent inquiry is likely to start uncovering all kinds of embarrassing details you know about about this cover up, uh that's been widely reported in in in Wuhan. And in the absence of that, what you have is US China relations now just plunging to to the lowest point that they've been since the establishment of

diplomatic relations. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. I mean when you think about how hot this has gotten and how fast, uh, and it it harkens back to all the back and forth over the trade war, which seems um uh uh almost quaint at this point because we're really talking about a lot of people's lives at this point, not just their livelihoods. All right, Andy Brown, editorial director for Bloomberg New Economy, his column It's a must read on the terminal and on Bloomberg dot com. Trump is trying to

open Pandora's box. Carol. Yeah, I mean this is a you know, difficult relationship was as you said, going into it, and it just seems to get tricker and trickier. And you know, we need transparency from China, right and we've talked about that for ages. I feel like broc journal. Yeah, but you let me drive. Oh no, no, no, no no, who's honey? Please, I'll do the vel. I want to drive, Just drive, baby questions trying. This is the drive to the globe. Un radio, all right, it's time for the

drive to the clothes back with us. We're excited to have her as Cathy Boyle, president and founder of champing Hill Advisors, join us on the phone just up the road from me in Pound Ridge, New York. Cathy, great to have you with us. How are you? I'm great, Jason. I work from a home office normally, so this isn't very much different the world that's coming to you in many cases, right, it is. Zoom is the hot buzzword.

Everybody's an expert. It's fun it's funny. Uh. My wife also works from home, and she's been especially skeptical of this whole zoom thing. She's like, um, you know, we can talk on the phone, like there's some of us

who do this, you know, all the time. But I do wonder, um, you know, as I say, you're up the road from me here in Westchester, and I wonder how it's playing out there in in Pound Ridge, and you put out a piece of research or or a note to your clients, you know, talking about some some local restaurants, which I feel like we've been talking a lot about here on the show and here in my little town and in New York City. It's sort of a it's a microcosm, right of what we're going through.

It is, and I think a lot of people are unrealistic, they really are. I mean, you know, we live in a nice, wealthy area. So there's a lot of people that I call the law laws, you know, and life is great. They've got you know, very big incomes, lots of money in the bank, big houses. Um, so they are a little bit sheltered and isolated from what really goes on, and some of those I've seen on social media saying, oh, I can't wait when opens back up.

We're gonna go out, We're gonna shop, We're gonna But I don't think the average person. I think this has been such a terrifying experience for so many people that I think we will turn into a nation of I don't know if we'll go quite the out of Savers, but I think people are really going to focus on the essentials. And restaurants have very skinny margins, so they really I worked in the restaurant business for years. I

worked a lot in the food and beverage industry. They do not have the flexibility they need to have those dining room is full and it's it's a hundred seats. They need a hundred seats. They need to at the turn two or three times in order to make it, depending on the restaurant. So so very concerned. Well, and I was gonna say, Kathy, I mean a lot of

your clients. I'm guessing our small business owners as well. Yeah, I mean we focus on five to fifty millions, So depends on where you you know, focus in terms of small business, right, but you don't have a food and beverage company doing ten million in revenue. They are lost for an in twenty thousand last year. He doesn't have any room for error. You know. The wine business in particular is usually what we call off premise, which is

retail stores and on premise, which is restaurants. So because we've been drinking like fish across the country, the off premise has filled the gap, and many of these wine companies are doing close to the same volume, especially if they have liquor. But when we return, we will stop drinking as much, maybe still drink a little bit more than we were, but the restaurants are not going to

fill the gap. So I'm advising a lot of my you know, wine and liquor companies that they really need to prepare for a downturn in revenue and really tighten their belts and look at their bottom line. And so, Cathy, help us if you can square what you see in the markets with what you see at a local restaurant or what you see when you talk to your clients.

Because we've got a nasdact that's now up for the year, We've got an SMP that if it closes where it is will be you know, in single digits down amid a global pandemic. Help me understand how this is happening. So it is very confusing, right, and if you look at some of the smart money looking more in Buffett as sort of you know Oracle Omaha, right, he's got a hunt in thirty seven billion. He sold his entire airline position because they don't see air traffic returning. It's down.

They don't see it returning for another three years. That's a somebody from Boeing said that, and then Leon Cooperman joined in with Buffet and named all these reasons why he's not buying. So a lot of the smart money is not buying. I really think that part of what's happened in volume is very low. And there's a small number of stocks again driving a lot of technology, which granted their earning money this time as opposed to the dot com bubble. But ten stocks are accounting for the

return of NASDAC, you know. So it's a little bit crazy. This disconnect of people surveyed believe that they're going to be rehired, yet the University of Chicago. I think it was just came out with a survey that said only two of those people will be rehired, three out of ten different. So I think. I also think that people got very very complacent every single time eleven years, Jason, eleven years, we got taught every time the market falls, by it, by the dip, and you'll be rewarded. And

so I honestly think that's guiding behavior. I have people that are normally nervous. Nelly's the wife actually said to me. She goes, I mean, they're very conservative portfolio, and they've only lost about a third of what the market lost on the way down, which is our goal. But she said, you know, I'm okay with this, and she goes, can you believe I'm saying that because normally she wants to

go all cash, you know. So I think that it's affected a broad range of people, and that people are thinking they got The last time they took plenty away from their advisors, they went in and oh nine they bought. They looked like heroes. So I think people are thinking they can do that again. Well. The other thing is, though, Kathy, we have so many questions about what life looks like after the virus. As you said, you don't anticipate all that demand, all this pent up demand coming back, and

some of it cannot come back. We just talked about the sports world at the top of the show, and I mean, don't you know if you think you're going to go back to big sporting events in stadiums and you know still, you know, it's just not going to happen. And so that kind of economic momentum, economic momentum, excuse me, is not going to be there. And the same thing with restaurants, right, you know, we talked with the doctor who said, yeah, you might be eating outside, but you're

not going to necessarily be in the restaurant. It's just not going to happen. So the economic momentum we get on the other side of this is not going to be great. No, and just think about it's a plan to ups closed the streets and let restaurants go alt fresco so they can at least make up, right, which then means think about that the next step. So all the delivery drivers can't get down during those hours, all the uber cars can't go taxis, so the economic fall

through the domino really carries quite far. And if you look at hospitality seven point eight million people in that twenty million were related to that industry. The peril roles that have gone up for the last few years were largely hospitality, retail, NEME and Marcus filing j Crew filing, rumors that Macy's might be next malls opened up, and there were ghost towns. Um So, I really think that

we're looking at a continued fall out. I hate and certainty on a plantaholic, and we run our own events. So normally I have an event next week with a fifty people, and we don't even know if we can do our July event with sitting. I can't do it for fifty, it just doesn't work. So I faced the same issues that a lot of other people do in terms of catering, event planning, etcetera. Well, I think it's

a really good point. And you know, these bigger mass gatherings, and if a mass gathering is you know, to find is something more than ten or twenty or even fifty, it's a it's a whole different ballgame in many ways. Alright, good reality check. I feel like our theme is continuing. Carol Masster Cathy Boyle. We love catching up with her present founder of Chaping Hill Advisors joining us on the

phone from Lovely pound Ridge, New York. Interesting to hear one of her you know folks that she works with and saying, you know who normally says, let's go to cash. Yeah, but I'm not that scared, and you're right, which is right that year after year after year, after the financial crisis, it made sense to just plow more money into the market for the most part. Thanks so much for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, Southcloud,

Bloomberg dot com, or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course you can always listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News