The Bloomberg 50 Broadcast

quite a night. Yeah, quite a night. And what I love about this event it's the third annual Bloomberg fifty and it's a celebration of the fifty people in business, entertainment, finance, politics, technology, science. And what I love about this You and I've been talking about this a lot. With this issue, is that people who stand out in measurable ways that's right. Well, it's Bloomberg after all, and so there's got to be

a data point. There's one guy who has to put all of that together, all to him every week to put this magazine out. Joel Weber. He is our host, our co host. I guess, uh this evening, h he's here. Yes, he's definitely our cost Yeah, yeah, it's a team sport. It's not just me, Um, there's a guy named Brett Began who actually slaves away at this thing for weeks after a week, after a week to get to a point where we can actually have tonight and have people

that we can celebrate. So it's big ten team sport, and it's even bigger than Brett because we reach out throughout the newsroom to all of the journalists and analysts within Bloomberg to make sure that we can have a list that actually really represents sort of the zeitgeist of the year. What's really cool too, is you guys start early in the year, right from what I understand, like

back in the spring. Yeah, well, I mean, and we try and account for the whole year, so it's really a chance to recognize even things that happened in January and February we're kind of taking into account. And so when you sort of set this in motion in a year like this, how do you pick out the themes? I mean, how do you sort of break it down? So it's a it's an evolving process, um, and it goes up until the last minute, right, but things start

to stand out over the course of the year. Whether it's a deal that especially in the oil m and A, was when that really jumped out of us this year like that, that that kind of distinguishes stuff, and then you kind of like give it a little time and you come back to it and say, did that thing hold up or was it an anomaly or did something else happen that got bigger than that, right, or was it just like you know, we we have we have a lot of people on the list. We also have

a chicken sandwich and it broke. You know, this is a Popeye's chicken sandwich that broke the internet? Is what what we realized. They had a three month supply run out in a matter of days, and you know, like something like that. It's just like even if you're like business business is dreams this up, you have no idea that it's gonna like take off quite like that, right, And so we build into the process that there's opportunities to just embrace things that are slightly outside of our

our usual place. And I love folks like Kylie Jenner, right, who are on the list for a couple of things that they did a couple of things and you know that's it's uh, it's a big money the self made billionaire gym z's first building. Um, it's it's an amazing accomplishment and that's why we do this and be able to recognize some of these people. Right. Well, we know it's a super busy night for you. We will see you on stage, beautiful, all right, it's gonna be very exciting.

Jil Webber, editor of Bloomberg business Week, thank you so much. Thank you great. I really appreciate it. It's been quite a year and if you think about some of the stories that have been out there, whether it's politics, whether it's technology. And what I love about this list, Jason, is it's a lot of household names. Yep, they're there. But then there are folks that you might not know their name, but you should. Whether it's m MT. You know, I think about we're going to talk to her a

little bit later. But I think that has become a big discussion when it comes to what's going on in the economy and certainly on the campaign trail, and then I just think about so many other issues. And as a matter of fact, we have a guest who's getting settled in. We just caught up with him a little while ago. A couple of weeks ago. Um, but we want to talk about the cannabis industry, which was a big story, in no doubt about it, but there was a lot more focused, I felt like on some of

the Canadian cannabis companies. And now we're really focusing a lot more on the US company because our next guest is from pure Leaf and he turned this into one of the world's most valuable cannabis companies. It's the biggest U S marijuana company by market value. We're talking about two point eight billion dollars. Right, he is Boris Jordan's he's here with us. Congratulations on Bloomberg fifty. It seems like just a few weeks ago, you're with us. Uh

in studio. It's great to catch. This is a much nicer I mean, our studio is nice, but this is a lot nicer. And we generally don't serve booz but you know, here we are, we do on Fridays. So why do you think, Uh, why do you think you made this list? You know, I was surprised. I'll be very honest with you. I've in the past made some list. I opened up the Russian privatization market, and Uh, I was on those global leaders of tomorrow. But the last thing I thought I'd make as a cannabis UH company,

listen a Bloomberg fifty for cannabis UM. I think what's great about it is that it sort of reflects the fact that people are starting to accept the fact that cannabis is going to be a part of our lives. In the United States, we have thirty three states that are that that have legalized cannabis in one form or another. More and more people are using it. And the fact that Bloomberg has recognized that, I think it's a big

deal and it shows that it's becoming mainstream. Well Burst, and I do think about you know, for a while we just talked about the Canadian cannabis companies, and I do feel like was a lot more about the US companies and yours included, UM, what do you think is going to be when it comes to the cannabis story. We we're waiting for, you know, regulations to come out from the government, you know, so I'm just curious what

you think will become. Did you get over impeachment um, which I hope we will at some point in time. I think it's gonna be a continuation of the US story. And that's not to say anything negative about Canada, but it's just a bigger market. The US companies are alterning profitable. Um,

you're starting to see more and more of them. I think the numbers that are gonna be put up by US company next year are gonna be quite big and staggering, and I think that will get recognized not only uh, you know, by Washington, but I think also by the markets at large. And I think at a large the mainstream investors have largely avoided cannabis until this to today, and I think you're gonna start seeing a lot more of them get involved as they see these companies start

to put up significant numbers. Well, and talk to us about sort of the big companies getting involved, because there have been some twists and turns, shall we say, with some of the bigger US companies started dipping their toe in some making some investments. I'm thinking of consolation, obviously, how does this sort of consumer package goods market get more involved in this? How important is it that they get involved in order to grow this business in a

meaningful way. I think they're all going to get involved with for instance, purely just this evening on on Bloomberg announced that we we hired um Joe Byrne, who ran uh DR Peppler Snapple. He built Voss Water. Before that, he was at uh um uh Seagram's company, so he the real guy. These are guys that are built and run very big CpG businesses, that understand brands and understand supply chain, and you're starting to see more and more of those people enter this market. And I think that's

the first sign um. And the reasons they're coming before the big companies is because we're still federally legal. But I think you're gonna get two pieces of legislation. I think you're gonna get the Safe Banking Act, and I

think you will get the States Act. Once you get the States Act is when you're gonna start seeing some of the big multinationals really starting to take a hard look at cannabis because it just fits so well with every one of their other products that they sell today, whether it be you know, beverages or food or or at different additives. And the farmer companies are gonna be the last because they're really waiting for synthetic cannabis. Once

you get synthetic cannabis. You'll start to see the farmer companies get involved as well. So what does it mean for your financial model next year? If we get those two pieces of legislation. That sounds like it's a game changer and that the numbers just start to take off.

Changer in terms of the amount of the cost of capital for our company, But it's not really a game change of the industry because the industry, I mean to be honest, we can we're growing, and then we're gonna grow from this year from over and then you can work across states. Right, you don't have to build that state will so you're still you still still going to be siloed in the states, but you will have a federal law that allows investors to invest in the sector,

but you'll still be siloed. And it's kind of to be honest, like gambling right in the US, Right, So you can't go across border, across state lines on gambling in the United States. You have to be siloed in the state that you're in. It's state regulated, but it's not federal legal. All right, we gotta leave it there.

Poor Jordan, thank you so much for dropping by a getting congratulations good time tonight, executive chairman of Curelya Holdings of course based in Wakefield, Massachusetts, here at the Bloomberg Fifties celebration, right, and I do think you know, we're talking with Joel about sort of the big themes of the year, and you said it, you know, twenty eight team, we would have said cannabis huge. And by the way, it was last year. If you remember Bruce Lynton was

on this list. He had, in auspicion said wasn't going to bring that up with but he had an artificiows sort of departure from his company. This is a volatile industry. We'll see where it goes. But those two pieces of legislation, as he mentioned, that could really change everything. Well gives it legitimacy and in terms of kind of taking away

some of the questions that are out there. And I think that spooks investors to some extent and certainly keeps some of the bigger players away from getting involved because they need they need to know what the rules are with this. Well and king off of what he said about them, you know, hiring a big name from well, I don't know if you saw this this cross late in the day during our radio show cure Um not

Cia Leaf Cannopy, which Bruce Linton left. They have now hired the former CFO of Constellation to come in and be the CEO. Well, it reminds what it is is a reminder that this is about being a brand and developing a brand, right, just like any other consumer product. And so it takes you there. So certainly cannabis one of them, and Bruce Um and boris rather recognized on the Bloomberg fifty also this year in terms of Bloomberg fifty.

And this plays a little bit more into what we've heard on the political campaign trials, right, Yeah, and we've heard a lot about you know, what's happening when it comes to the relationship between business, between politics and the Federal Reserve. Talk a lot about fiscal policy. We also talk a lot about monetary policy. We hear about it from politicians. Yes, I think in a way that we traditionally have not. Let's be honest. Yeah, this is turning

things upside down. And I feel like, you know, you're pretty cool if you can talk about MMT modern um monetary theory, because it's certainly something that Bernie Sanders has talked about and you know, it really plays into and goes against for those of us who studied economics, UM, it really goes against this whole idea of you can't just print money to pay for things, and yet this theory turns it all upside down. And we have the

perfect person to talk about it joining us. And she's recognized among the Bloomberg fifty Stephanie Kelton, economist, professor of economics and public Policy at stony Brook University, and she's got an upcoming book it's called The Deficit Myth, and we want to get into it. Welcome, Welcome, We got your mic call set more or less we do we can hear you. So tell us a little bit about UM this year and just so many people talking about m MT. If you google it it comes up a

million times and many times over. So what do you make of kind of the popularity of an empty I mean, there,

it is kind of astonishing, right that. I think in a lot of ways, what's happening is that people are coming to some sort of terms with the idea that when the next downturn comes, UM policymakers are going to be able to reach for the usual toolkit and do what they've done in the past, that we're going to have to start thinking maybe more creatively, more ambitiously about what policymakers can do in response to a growing weakness

in the economy. And I think UM, for many people, m MT is just increasingly viewed as that alternative that can help us to um, you know, think about ways to to be more ambitious when so we don't have to love the kind of long protracted recession that we had last time. And so, Stephanie, were you surprised that this was a year where a lot of people from Alexandro Cassio Cortez to Bernie Sanders, who Carol mentioned, you know,

they introduced it. We talked about the Overton window all the time, right, you know that this sort of moved in m m T S favor makes me windows. But it was a moment, you know, and honestly it entered into the political and and I dare say even at

least the mainstream business zeitgeist. To quote our colleague Tom Keene, were you surprised, I mean yes and no. You know, I mean, if you've been pushing hard to get that breakthrough moment for a set of ideas and You've really worked as a scholar and as an academic, and with a number of other people as well. I mean, this is a team effort, and you know, we put heart and soul into this project for more than two decades now, and so at some point you do expect it to

pay off. I guess you know. Um, but then when you have that moment and you have politicians of the type that you're talking about giving some oxygen to these ideas, it really is remarkable. Tell us though, because for everyone like a Bernie Sanders and some other individuals high profile who are supporting him and to you know, you've had a lot of high profile names. I know, Paul Krugman, you've had a little bit of a battle, you know,

certainly a ward words. Um, I'm curious if you're having more and more conversations with more folks that maybe we're against it, that are starting to say, hey, you've got an idea here. Yeah. I mean so for me, some of the most fun conversations and communications I have are those that aren't public. It's the people who reach out to me privately. And you know, were it known who these people are, I think the shock waves would reverberate

in a much more dramatic fashion. But it's just encouraging to know that there are people who are really out there willing to take the scholarship seriously, ask questions when they're not sure, um, you know, do the ideas justice and not sort of caricature them and and created an atmosphere of fear and concern where these are really just, I think, very sensible and sound economic principles. Remind our

remind our world. I mean, I know our audience knows, but m M T is essentially a government in their own currency can just print the money they need. Because so I never use those words because it's okay, everybody everybody in the journalist world does. But it's so it's

the idea is fairly simple. It's that in countries like the US that issue their own currency that's not tethered to bold or convertible into anything else, that the rules are just different for a currency issuing government as opposed to you know, somebody in the Eurozone, Griefs or Italy or Spain that now borrows in a currency that they don't control, certainly different from a household or an individual business that has to spend in a currency that it

can't issue, so it does free up some policy space. And what MMT is trying to remind us is we're not on a gold standard anymore, not in a fixed exchange rate world. So let's recognize that. Let's try to take full advantage of the policy space that's available to us. It's not a free lunch, it's not a carte blanche. You can go out and spend that. Yeah, you can't. You're still supposed to make wise investments, be judicious with

the public purse. But recognize there is a difference between the issuer of the currency and what we would say are the users of currency. The government is not like a household. But we continue to have debates and policy conversations that are rooted in this old thinking of the federal government as if it's got to play by the same set of rules that you and I have to

play buy And that's just not right. So I gotta ask you before we let you go, sort of looking ahead a bit, all the attention that's been paid to you into into m MT, do you feel like there is a well spring of sorts of new scholarship that's coming up. Are you hearing sort of students, grad students and others sort of coalesced around this a little bit, because often that's what it takes for an idea to

move even further into the instream. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I taught at the University of Missouri in Kansas City for seventeen years. I'm now at Stony Brook University here on Long Island, but we had one of the largest graduate programs PhD programs in the entire university. There are universities training students, are students are now out sharing their own economics departments. I just saw university on the East Coast advertising for a faculty position where they say, what

we're looking for is someone who can teach MMT. So they're actually hiring. Yeah, that clearly is Yeah, that's amazing. All right. Stephanie Kelton economist MMT, advocate it and honor here at the Bloomberg Fruit and are upcoming both the deficit myth modern monetary theory and the Birth of the People's Economy is gonna be released, I think. Jude, alright, thank you so much. You are listening to Bloomberg Business.

We Carl Master along with Jason Kelly. We'relive at the Morgan Library and Museum, uh here in New York City, and we are celebrating um some of the fifty names, and we are going to be followed by a dinner where we will honor and talk about more than but

we're going to interview a few more. What I love about Stephanie Kelton is I think we're in this environment and I think it's very telling on a day where we talked a lot about Paul Boker, former head of the Federal Reserve and someone who did some really brave things when inflation was out of control, and I do think we're in this interesting environment, low rate environment. Everyone's trying to make sense of it, and then maybe we need to have some new theories and maybe think about

things a little bit differently. And so I think, um, it's fascinating to be able to have some time, get some time with her, because I do think we need to introduce some new theories to figure out, you know, kind of how do we maybe you know, get some more growth or how you know, how can we do some things within the government um responsibly. As she said, it's not just runaway spending, but maybe we need some new theories in order to do some things. I also,

I mean getting past the economics part of it. I love the idea of someone sort of toiling away on something for two decades that they deeply believe in. Uh. You know, she obviously came up through the economic system, the university system, and now she's she's having a moment. But what was clear from that conversation is that moment is going to continue because now there's this whole category

of economist who are being trained around this. Well you think about it, right, there's going out around the around the country or around the world in terms of her students. Or want to shift gears a little bit because our next guest from the Bloomberg fifty Red Carpet is bringing banking services to customers across Africa. We're so delighted to have with us James more Warrany. He is a CEO of Equity Group Holdings UM Bank Kenya and so delighted

to have you here. Welcome and congratulations, thank you for having me here. So thirty five years in and I know I was watching a bunch of videos and kind of prepping. We both were, And I mean it wasn't easy when you guys began, right, I mean you were losing money. It was not easy. You've come a long way. Tell us a little bit. It's about about kind of that process. Yeah, the first ten years were very difficult. We couldn't break even, so we became technically insolvent by

the seventh year. Not good. Yeah, Now there's a tough track, right, very tough track record where the lost things we had

accumulated were thirty times the capital we started with. But essentially we developed a business model that was appropriate for the individual and we became a bank for the small micro media mental crisis and essentially the models knitted with uh, the entrepreneurs so well that uh now we are the largest bank in Nairobi Stock Exchange in terms of market cups and the largest bank in Eastern and Central Africa

and with the sixteen medium customers nine countries. And so when you think about your customer, help us understand who they are. You know, you describe their size, but are they in all types of businesses? And as you look down down the list, what are the fastest growing areas that you see? Yeah, we are very inclusive bank because people graduate up. They may start very micro, they becomes more, they become medium, They become a larger practice. The same

with the individuals. They start occasionally as peace and farmers, they become a growth businesses and the individual as well being continuous to grow. But the biggest growing segment UH is the medium enterprises. That's where you find the scale EYES is becoming really significant and it's because they populated the value change of the coporates that operating the continent and consequently they now become the face of African Africans and entreprenewership. I have to say, James, what I love

about this. And I remember talking to Bahamma Units about micro loans and what you could do with a small amount of money, the impact you could have on a family, and I think about what you're doing multiplied many times over. That allows people to have a financial identity, create a means for themselves and their family, and then even kind of work up the value chain. It's pretty remarkable and

it impacts the country that they're in as well. That's true because the African entreprenewership capitalism in Africa is that the individual level, the entrepreneur whatever, and that individual supports the immediate family and sometimes they extended the family. So when they started this more enterprise. They provide their jobs for the entire family, They care of the education of

the entire family, and essentially they become a catalyst. So small loans have very significant impact because of the individual capitalism. Africa is not compiy tized, so we don't have ute copy it. It is a small businesses that aggregate to the African economist, so speaking the African economies. Excuse me, let's talk about Kenya because an ambitious plan underway. You're an architect of it, Keny Kenya's Vision thirty I believe it's tell us what underneath that because the ambition is huge.

Vision twenty staty is a long time strategic plan to tran to see Kenya transformed from a least developed country to a midle income economy. I've been the chairman Vision twenty Faty now for the last farteen years, and we have seen the economy move from a ten billion uest dollar size economy to a hundred billion dollars growing ten

times within a period of thirteen years. In the process, we have created numerous jobs, thousands of jobs for young people because the country is very young, with a miniage of eighteen years, so the need for jobs is normals. But more importantly we have seen the law the private sector have prayed, and that is where equity have prayed a very significant role in providing credit, uh financial or support.

But more importantly, the foundation provides capacity building. We do financially trust, we do enterpreneurship training and so once you combine credits and competence and capacity, we see the economy being moved. And in the process Kenya has have moved now to possession five in the continent from position sixteen.

Within that video, what was interesting because you started this to think abound two thousand eight, which I think was an interesting time obviously around the world, a tough time, but it's fascinating kind of some of the things that you've done, like a fiber after cable project, but you also had to deal with governance and rulable. I mean you to get some basic things in place to be able to grow this right and and and and kind of grow the businesses. Yes, we broke them, uh the

espilation of the people into three. The first one was governance, get it light in the way we have governed, and get transpalency, get accountability, and get a structure of governance that is reliable and predictable. The second one was look at the economy and enable the private sector investing the fiber optic, investing lords, power lad with air ports and pots so that the cost of doing business is reduced

and private sector is facilitator. We called all that an album men of the private sector, so massive investment in UH. And then the last one was invested in the socio aspects of the people. Focus on education. We started with free primary education that now it's free UH day school education and on all the way to university and we now have a hundred percent transition from primary to secondary education. So you keep children through school for at least eighteen years.

And when you think about sort of the future, part of it is creating these financial hubs like Dubai is a great example of something that really came to the form pretty quickly that really galvanizes people. It's a transportation hub, it's an economic hub, it's a financial hub. Do you have that same vision? True? UH. The aspilation of the

vision was to make a financial sector. Kenya is not endowed with the nationality sources like me knows, so we focused on people and said what would people be good debt and we focused on services, so you find Kenya is the hub for banking, insurance companies, telecommunication, health and education. So essentially that's what we did. Then said the financial services would be an enabora in the whole legion. It

would be uh. We needed to grow the banks to the size so that they can support their aspidations and the dreams of the people, because people have very strong dreams, but most of these dreams never come true because there is no enablement from a financial perspective, and Equity has played a very significant loan and supported that with the foundation.

So when it comes to like for reastance to agriculture, a lot of farmers are supported to become a grow businesses, so you stop growing for the family, you grow for the market place. But debt practices needs to change, so that's where the bank then support and essentially then you have the entire legion and you're able them to finance infrastructure projects. We're able to cross board the businesses and so it becomes an integrated East African community and the

way da Messa legion. That was the essence of making the rob a financial center and Equity has a reader pret the very big rock. It's now a two billion market caub bank within that setup. It's pretty remarkable. Great to have you here with us. Thank you so much for congratulations and being part of the Bloomberg Fair. Thank You're very impressive the work you're doing. James, here is the CEO of Equity Group Holdings joining us here at

the Morgan Library. It's really fascinating. This is what I love about this list is you really get a window open. And this is the Bloomberg Bosines Week is known for, is taking us around the globe looking at activities and work that's being done um to help different folks um in different countries. And it's really fast and I really like some of the super relatives that he helped us understand there in terms of growth, because obviously you're in

a situation where things have happened very fast. The scale is tremendous and the ambition as well well. And I I've always loved this whole idea. Muhammed units of the Grimming Bank created the micro loans and was doing it around the world, giving someone like fifty bucks or twenty bucks to start a business. It was often women and as a result, they often paid it back pretty quickly, and they were able to make a living to support

their family and just better their family. Uh. And so it's really fascinating to see more of this work going on. So um, people are mully nailing around us good. You know, people sort of roll in. They see our TV set, our TV radio set. We've got a beautiful room sort of just behind where our guests are scredited. Another one of the Bloomberg fifty. She's there on the screen. She didn't take a Yeah, in fact, you're thinking about somewhere

right now. But there will be cocktails, there'll be an afterparty, you know. I mean, it's Monday in New York City. Why wouldn't we do this exactly a rady Monday, so one money Monday, just tuck in, uh, you know, and maybe if you're tucking in or you on your way home, I know this is what I'm gonna do when I finally get in a car later, I'm definitely turning on a podcast. I was just gonna say, you are our podcast guy. You're always like, did you listen to this?

Did you listen to this? And we've got the next the perfect guest to talk about we do I mean and It's really exciting because this is an area of the market. I actually listened to an interview with these two guys on a Arrival network, another podcast, um, and it told the whole story. Let's bring in Alex Bloomberg. Of course, no relation to Bloomberg Business Week. We just want to put that out. Matt Lieber, co founders Gimblet Media. It's a company that they sold to Spotify for I million.

Did I get the number right? Uh, that's what's been reported. You could make some news here. Um. Anyway, it was the biggest deal in podcast in the podcast industry. So nice to have you both here. Congratulations on being named Bloomberg fifty. Because we I mean, Jason does love podcast. We all do. UM tell us a little bit about the podcast world, and I mean I feel like everybody does a podcast. How do you like distinguish yourself? But you saw it before anybody, I mean you really did

for most people. Well, I think Matt and I were we started the company, uh and and uh we were both sort of coming at it from separate perspectives. I was I was working in podcasting already, I worked at this American life and I had uh started planning money with my co founder at Adam Davidson, and so I was seeing sort of like this excitement building around this new on demand way that like audio is getting delivered

to people. And I just saw the excitement building and I was like, we just somebody should make more of these. And then Matt had was like in the on the other side of the sort of like uh of the of the of the scene, looking and seeing the same sort of thing. Peasure that Our insight was that if you look over the whole history of media, every time a new medium comes about, new, a new media company

gets built. And so a hundred years ago, the new medium was radio, and that's when CBS got built, and that's when NBC got built, and we felt on demand digital audio podcasts were a new medium and we wanted to build a defining brand for this new medium. And that was gimma. But isn't it fascinating because it is like radio in terms of, you know, just listening to a great story being told. And I just think the simple part, it's just such a simple thing, but it's great.

But it harkens back to radio, harkens even further back to that. I mean, I think, what if you think about like what we're doing in podcasts. A lot of times what we're doing is the is is one of the oldest forms of media in human existence is telling stories to one another. And we've been telling stories to

one another before there was any other media available. Like many of the oldest stories in human history were oral stories before they were ever down they were they were telling them before human languages, even written language was invented.

And so it's very deep and very primal. And uh, and I think that was one of the issues when we were sort of like first starting this company ever was like, but it's just talking, right, and we're like, no, no, no. But it's also on the backs of this new of of new technology and and all these new tools that we bring to it. And so where are we sort of in in the evolution here? Because you guys, as we said, we're early, a lot of people have sort

of piled in. It feels like, I mean, we have a podcast, everybody has, like you know, everybody standing around it is probably has a podcast. Like where does it go next? We think we're just at the very beginning. And the term that um, I think you you've been using is that we're at the dawn of the second Golden Age of audio. The first golden age of audio was in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties. It was

when broadcast news was born. It was when you saw fiction like The Shadow with Orson Welles, Probable out and now. And you know, audio hasn't evolved that much in the last sixty seventy years until now. And now what you have are a couple of big technology changes. So you have smartphones in every pocket, you have connected cars coming online.

A lot of listening happens in the cars, and you've got smart home devices that people are listening at home and even talking to their dashboard when they're in their car. And so all these things have combined for this whole new um listening kinds of listening experiences to come out and new sorts of storytelling. So there's a whole generation of creators being born now to work for this medium.

It's a more intimate It's like radio, but it's more intimate. Um. There's something about putting on your headphones or something and just kind of when you listen to a podcast, it feels like you're listening to your best friend hang out with you tell you a story that's just made for you. But as Jay said, well, as you mentioned, everybody's got a podcast, what is it that makes a podcast stand out? Well?

Are there's so much content out there? I mean, if we told you that, then you would just start your own. Is just a great story. I mean you're asking the question that is at the heart of every content company, which is like what people want? Right, and that, and and and and and the The scary truth is that,

like that is an essential mystery. We can do our best, and we have been very successful so far, and we will continue to be successful, like eventually, you know, getting that right a bunch of times, but it's like it's it's really hard. I think the thing that like is true about audio though, is that it prizes two things above everything else. Like there's a very simple way that

it is just it thrives on narrative. And so if you can just tell a simple story, like just for example, if I say to you, I got up this morning, I looked out the window and then I stopped. You're like, well, wait, that's all I did was say two sentences to you, and all of a sudden, you want to listen to the third one. There's something that there's something that deep in in terms of like hearing a story, worry that people, it really grips you. So that's I think that is

one of the key things that audio can deliver. And if you get that right over time, that's what people want to listen to. All Right, So let's talk a little bit about the business side of all of this, because storytelling is great. We all love telling stories, we like listening to them, we like telling them. We certainly like hearing ourselves talk because we do it for hours

a day every day. But you guys figured out a way to make a real business out of this, something that Spotify was able to and willing to pay you a lot of money for. Clearly they see a business here. How does distribution ultimately work in a profitable way? Not? Um, Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. We um we did build a business here, and so Gimlet is um it was mainly an advertising business. It turns out podcasting, this intimacy that happens in audio makes it great for storytelling.

It also makes it great for advertising, and we're reaching a very unique consumer. They tend to be younger and

more affluent, more educated, they're very hard to reach. Our for them is the unreachables, and we're getting them with this very um, direct, personal kind of ad product that really worked for us, and so so we built a business around that UM And then about a year ago we we started having more serious conversations with Spotify, and in Spotify we saw a really a global giant music company that you know today reaches over a quarter billion

listeners around the world every month UM. And in that we saw distribution, We saw the opportunity to take gimblet and reach a global audience. We thought that together we could solve what is one of the fundamental problems for the medium and also for the business, which is discovery. So if you ask um, if you ask people what podcasts they listened to and how they found out, they're still basically finding out because their friend told them. They

may have read it in media. But the kind of discovery that Spotify has unlocked to tell you about the right song, the right album, the right playlist, we thought that could work for a podcast too, and in doing so get to many many more people. Does it continue to be an advertising model that gets it to profitability? Can you say it again? Is it is it still an advertising model that gets podcast to profitability? Um? To talk fast ironically, I'm not getting your audio in kind

of reading your lives right now. Um, well done. Yes, today's podcasts are mainly an advertising business. Does it continue to be that way? I think there's gonna be I think there's gonna be other all kinds of other forms of monetization. And Spotify is primarily a subscription business. The vast majority of Spotify's revenue comes in the form of paying subscribers. And um, we think we're gonna unlock new monetization models for for podcasts that will realize the true

value of the media. All right, So I have to ask you, knowing your story, knowing that you both worked in public radio. Public radio, people who you know must be like they're happy ish for you, right, I mean that happy they like slave away like here they are, They're like and like you guys go and create this like sugar not. I mean that's amazing. Yeah, I mean I think so. I think I think it was like a pretty big, a pretty big shock in the industry

when the sale happened. I think just because like you know, it was like it made real this thing that up until that point had not had just been sort of theoretical, and so anytime, anytime, even if people were I think, you know, we know lots of people in the industry and many of my closest friends are in public radio. Uh and and I'm still very very tight with everybody,

and so everybody knew what was happening. They were excited, they were rooting for us, yeah, saying mostly uh, but it's like, yeah, it's a big shock when that when that thing happens, and it's like and you're like, wow, that like Alex thing, why didn't you like cut me in a little bit? They're just the thing that I

think it was. Um, I think it was like what was gratifying I think for all of us in there is that it really we were slaving a way of doing this thing that we saw value it, Like we believed in this, like the product that we're making, and what the sale did wasn't legitimized that value that we saw in it for everybody. And I think that's a great thing for the entire excute. I mean, it was a I mean, I think when we look back on in one of the reasons you're on the Bloomberg fifties.

It was a seminal moment, you know, in a lot of ways of saying, because I think a lot of people who had dabbled in this were like, yeah, you know, I sold an ad to whoever, and like it's barely covering my costs. Like this is something that that really legitimized it in a really big way. So what podcasts and for you guys is just blowing up even more. Like it's just like, I think what we're gonna see is we're gonna see lots and lots of new forms, lots and lots of new formats, lots of new people

coming into into podcasting that haven't been here before. Um more, bigger, better, more creative, more exciting stuff, more stuff that we haven't imagined. Do the election kind of make it an interesting year in terms of content, Yeah, I mean you guys think about that. Well, yeah, I mean we're still tellers and this is the story. It's kind of exciting. Yeah, you know, it's super exciting, and and and the way and how how you cover that, you know, in all the different

ways that we're thinking about covering it, We're excited. Yeah, doesn't want to give away to my secret exactly. Like all right, Alex Bloomberg and Matt Leeber, thank you so much. Congratulations on Bloomberg fifty, Congratulations on the deal suddenly watch this space, thank you congratulations. Alright. So podcast, yeah, certain big thing, and I think it's so interesting to see that story and like Alex was talking about, like it

legitimized in so many ways this business. And you do think about these seminal moments in media, and that certainly was one. But I guess what I think is interesting. And you're listening to, of course, Bloomberg Business Week, um a special edition. We're live from the Bloomberg fifty at the Morgan Library Museum. I'm Carol Master along with Jason

Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. But I think what's also interesting about it, and I guess what I was trying to get to is, you write, everybody's got a podcast, but there's something about the work that they've done that really stands out, that gets noticed, and that whole idea of really great storytelling and sometimes it's got a lot of bells and whistles and some of it very straight well, and one of the things we didn't get to talk about, which I'm sure you know, is that like they there's

this whole meta element to this where they had their own podcast called Startup that business that built there and it was all about that in this window in UH was fascinating and it was a very it was a very real story. And you know, Alex Bloomberg worked at This American Life, I mean, and his story is pretty amazing.

And he sort of came up through the administration, like he was literally like the office manager for UH, for This American Life and then became a producer and it was so it's pretty remarkable what they built, you know, two guys out of public radio, you know, creating something UH that was pretty amazing. While we are here at the Bloomberg fifties, yes we are, and it is bumping. People are starting to show up. I keep hearing things

dropping behind. Yeah, I figure it's you dropping things, you know. I don't think it was this time interesting. Alright, so listen our next guest. It might not have been our plan initially, that is creating a supply chain technology company, but after a trip to Bangkok, she started ze Lingo. It's a direct to consumer fashion marketplace, but it went to become a lot more to its merchants. We're talking about on ket Bow. She is the co founder and the CEO of zie Lingo. You said it right, I

said the usually how it happened. I sort of like muddled my way through it and then girl comes in and today anyway, great to have you with us. Congratulations on the Bloomberg fifty. Tell us about ze Lingo. So you know, everybody wears clothes and um, the bottle industry, the abottle in textile industry is almost five percent of

global GDP, so it's huge, ye. But despite that, very little digitization, very technology has really touched the entire industry, which is which is remarkable exactly so unlike pharmaceuticals industrials, Uh,

the way your iPhone is made, unlike any of that. Uh, there is very little traceability, UM, sustainability technology or really any amount of transparency in the supply chain in apparel, and that leads to all these problems that you hear often that fashion is accused of, which are all true. By the way that we're filling up the landfills. There may be little children working in factories in Vietnam, or

in Indonesia or in Bangladesh. Making clothes for you, that you're buying here um or that the clothes are not sustainable, people are buying too much. All of that is true, and all of that can be solved with technology by creating a lot of transparency across the supply chain. So

that's where we come in. We we provide a technology platform for mills, factories literally as upstream as the farmers, to interact with the brands that want products made by these people and make sure that it's done in a sustainable, transparent But that part of it, well, and I love the transparency piece of this. They have spent so much time. If we think about our big themes of nineteen uh, you know, fashionopolist and Thomas's great book about fast fashion

and everything bad. Candidly that that's done and all the sort of bad will that it's engendered in a whole category of the population, I have to think that lack of transparency, though existed for a reason people didn't want. You do know how hard was it to sort of crack into this. So you're exactly right. Today the fashion supply chain has about twenty players, uh, and you only need five of them, which means that about fourteen or fifteen of those guys or girls are just there because

they're agents. Their agents, they're traders. They're not adding a lot of value in the value chain, so there really either holding inventory. How they amazing, So that's like they're they're twenty and there need to be five incredible. So about fifteen of them don't like us a lot, but the five that are adding value, we're adding an immense amount of value to their business and just economics and then making sure that they're held accountable if they're not

following the right. But to Jason's point, like how tough was it like making your in roads and so on and so forth, because I feel like it's such an established supply chain or supply you know that was out there. How tough was it to do this? Actually, once you go beyond the big manufacturers and you really go into the world of Asian manufacturing or South American manufacturing, or even right here in the US, it's quite fragmented. So uh, you know, most of fast fashion is made within a

very fragmented manufacturer base. And then once you start giving them technology and bringing them online, it becomes much more easy for them to find their suppliers and their buyers and you know, transact without agents in the middle. So it's it's maybe it's hard in the beginning to get a critical mass in the new country or in a new area, or in a new in you know, subcategory like Denim's or or something, but once you do it, there's so much of a network fact that it spreads

quite fast because businesses see the value very quickly. I wonder about the trade war, specifically the US China trade war, and what that has done for your business. So what's interesting is that I think there has been definitely a lot of volatility, or at least the fear of what might happen in the minds of brands the world over, and many of whom that sourced a majority of their products from China did they wanted to versify their portfolio a lot. So they want us to uh, you know.

They they're not saying no China, They're saying, hey, can you de risk my business right by helping me understand how I should source them from where and making that transparent along the way. We're hearing that from a lot of the studios we talk about that they want to be having kind of manufacturing in the markets that they sell. They want to, as you said, de leverage that risk exactly,

some optionality. Absolutely. So if you build your business where are you now, fresh infusion of capital, you're growing like crazy. Look like, I think twenty twenty is going to be super exciting for us. We recently launched in the United States, we started working with brands over here where now just recently started working with manufacturers in the U s as well. Um, so it's it's looking like is going to be very, very busy because we do have a business in eight

countries in Asia as well, and UH. While I spend most of my time between Singapore in New York, now we have an office in l A, uh and we have lots of customers there. So it looks like it's going to be a crazy exciting What I was just gonna say, it is interesting sort of this idea of an American manufacturing l A does seem to be a little bit of the center of that. And yet even the American manufacturing is not immune to some of the

issues that we've run into overseas exactly. So in fact, it's a myth that those problems don't exist in the US as well. Um, maybe maybe the practices are better, but they're not exactly optimized. We can use a lot more technology here as well. We can use a lot more transparency, digitization, uh you know, QC and line efficiency tools can be automated. So there's a lot that can

be done. And it was a bit of a surprise to me personally when I came in and saw that there was just there was just so much to be done, even domestically here in the US. But now it seems like developed. I have to ask you, because I love talking to folks like you, because I feel like you're traveling the world, You're seeing smaller business, midsized businesses, all

kinds of businesses. What's the global economy look like? I think, you know, despite despite every fear that people have in their minds right now about where the economies are going, where the economy is going, UM, I think there's a lot of opportunity in the adversities that we're seeing as well. So, of course this is a very colored view from my viewpoint where you know, UM, on the one hand, we're saying we've hit peak apparel and really people should be

consuming less and consuming better. All of that seems like such a huge opportunity to us, uh, because consumers is starting to ask questions and whold brands and businesses responsible conversations, which is exactly where we come in and say to the brand that listen, you don't know how to do this,

that's okay because you know we're gonna help you. We're gonna help you, and you can be transparent, you can be sustainable and maybe you don't have to sell fifty items maybe yourself then and the economics can still be good for you. Exactly. And Katy Bows, did I say it right? Yes? Good? And Katy Bows is the cup founder and CEO of Zilingo, joining us here at the boom our fifty congratulation. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks good luck. That is so much. I feel like

our world. I know it's great, I know, I mean, it really is the perfect summation in many ways because I have, you know, I've been reading so much of Dana Thomas's work. She's going to the show a couple of times, and you know, it is really affecting people's behavior. I know, you know, we talked about talking about it all the time with our kids, and sort of the decision I was thinking about it, even when I was thinking about like for Christmas. Is why do you know

I want Debbie Kelly to buy me for Christmas? And I need to you know, have a certain amount of uh you know, I don't know I need to be thinking about these things in terms of my own closet. But I think and Keatie made a good point that you know, as a manufacturer, she said, it doesn't mean the fashion industry has to fall apart, but maybe, you know, I think about how I grew up. My mother was by quality and spend money on good good stuff. You don't need to have a lot, you know. And I

think we're going back. I think we're kind of fully you know, coming back around to that way of thinking. And I definitely agree your your kids. I know my daughter she wants to know what the company stands for, what's the impact on the environment, And I think we're going to see more of that. And if you and I are starting to jump on board on that real old folks, I know, I like to think of us as younger you know. Yeah, I'm fine with youngest. Yeah exactly,

let's go with that. Uh No, I mean it is interesting and it's a way that certainly will enact, I mean to me, one of the most interesting thing that on Keatie said was this notion that the supply chain has about fifteen too many people in it. That's crazy, but it also just shows how successful she's been because

there if she's able to crack that incredible. That's what I was curious about, because I feel like these industries are so well established and that when somebody comes in with a new idea, but when it makes like I just think about our world in terms of online in the Internet, whether it's being able to go, you know, to Amazon directly or pick your other online retailer and kind of cut out a lot of things that we

used to do before. It really makes a difference and it's really um certainly something that we all are taking part of. So let's get to our next guest. Yes, our last guest um bloomber Business Weeks names Seema Hingarani as one of the people to watch in We're already thinking about next year. She's the founder and chair of the nonprofit Girls Who Invest. It's dedicated to increasing the number of women in portfolio management and leadership in the

asset management industry. So nice to have you here with us. Yeah, you getful to be here. You guys have been around for a couple of years and you've had a lot of success and made some inroads. You are getting more women out there. Yeah, it's been fantastic. In four years, we've put through three d and fifty college women through our ten week on campus summer program, where that's four weeks of training in the classroom and then a six week paid internship at one of the leading asset manager

firms in the world. It's been incredible. And of those women are staying in the investment business there staying. Are they moving up the ladder? They are. It's fantastic. Well, and see, one of the things that I love talking to you about is the fact you were on the other side of the table. You were you were distributing money and the ways you were picking a manager. So you saw that from the other side of the table.

Why is it taken so long for the rest of the world to sort of get on board with this? You know, I think it's just coming up and saying, you know, maybe we had to rethink this. We've been having trouble recruiting women in particular into our business. Uh, and yet we do the same thing over and over again. So when I talked to a lot of the large investment firms around the world, I would ask them, so, what do you do when you recruit And they would say to me, Oh, we go to these four colleges

and we go to these investment banking programs. And I thought, well, you guys, I wonder how we're having a problem with diversity. Let's go bigger, broader and so find I'll do the work. I'll go find women across the entire country, from colleges all across the US, the different majors of study, different ethic backgrounds, different socio economic backgrounds, and I'll run a program through the summer and we'll train them up so that when we send them to you to these internships,

they hit the ground running the same. I do wonder, though, if there's something different, because I feel like there's been a lot of talk for years about getting more women into kind of the financial industry. Is there something that's changed in the last couple of years. Is it finally understanding that the studies and the importance of diversification that it makes a difference in terms of financial difference, that all of a sudden, everybody's awakened. Yes, I think that's right.

I think, Um, while the research has been out there, there's more research that shows and proves that more gender diverse teams get better outcomes. There's actually research now that shows that more mixed gender investment teams get better investment results, which goes to the heart of girls whom invest and what we're trying to do. And I think honestly in this country now with movements such as Time's Up and hashtagniqu too, it's certainly raised Uh. You know, more attention

on this issue and more firms are paying attention. And I think the final push has really come from the big institutional investors. So you now have big public pension plans in particular saying to these investment managers, you know, if you don't have more diversity on your investment team. I've read the research too, and I believe the research. I don't believe you will get long term consistent investment returns, so I might pull my money from you and put

it across this shoe. I'm so glad you brought that up, because it feels like that's what has to happen. And again, going back to uh, your time in New York City, like the money has to speak here, like that nothing's gonna change. I mean we talked about this with the s G as well, you know, and start ups. The source of the money essentially says no or change, nothing's going to happen. So you think that that is starting

to happen. Yes, And it's certainly it's a combination. I mean, there are amazing leaders in our industry who do get it, and I've been trying to push to get it as broad based as we needed to get. Yes, we're gonna have to have the big investors out there saying this isn't gonna work and standing up and actually pulling their capital and putting it elsewhere. So much of what you're doing is creating that pipeline, and I do think that's

so important. But we've got to make sure that there's the support along the way and that really speaks to a company's culture and making sure that there's those folks to do that. So how do we get to that? Yes, is it just by getting more and more women into

the industry or what? Well, So that's part of it. Um. You know, back when I was at the City of New York, and I was the c I O, and I have these conversations with the leaders of the business UM and I looked down at their organizational charts and say, you guys, were all the women on your investment team, right, UM. And so what they would say to me is, well, we don't get resumes from women, so clearly a pipeline issue, which I agree, maybe we do have that, and let's

fix that. But I did say to them, then, you know, I'd like to have the other part of the conversation, no judging, no blaming, But there's still firms out there in our business set of cultures that are not so welcoming to women. So let's have that conversation to and tackle it from both ends. Make a lot more progress,

a lot faster. So what I'm really encouraged by now is we are sitting down with the leadership of the industry and and talking about their cultures and why is it that once these women come in, they don't stay, And how do we help get these women to a position where they're getting promoted for these new opportunities, new growth opportunities that right now they're not really getting quit in those positions hallelujah. Great great point to end. Thank you so much, Sima Arani. She is um the founder

and chair of the nonprofit Girls Who Invest. It's a great organization. Thank you so much. Thank you. Luck twenty twenty. Alright on with the show. That was a great sixty minute, very quick sixty minutes. We are off to co host the dinner. Now we're going to be on stage with Joel Webber honoring all these great people. We're having a great time. I do love it. It's smart conversations, it's

people from all walks of life. And what's really wonderful is you can also get a little bit more of this on our weekend show on Bloomberg business Week Radio and Bloomberg business Week TV. We're gonna be talking about tomorrow on our daily show as well. Tune in. This is Bloomberg Business Week.