You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. So, in a week where we get a read on monthly jobs, we'll start jolts tomorrow. We get monthly jobs on Friday. Right. One group, though, Paul, that continues to have trouble getting a lig up, and that is women. We see this consistently. Yeah, it is, and it's an issue that probably is exacerbated as an issue during the pandemic. But the that's gonna
flush that out a little bit. We can do that with Shanna Hawking, founder of Hawking Leadership, joins us on zoom from Philadelphia. So, uh, Shanna talked to us about kind of your report, what your findings are showing. Uh, and then we can take this forward. Sure, I'm so
glad to be here. What I'm learning and seeing from women everywhere is that we want to succeed, We want to advance our careers, and there are significant barriers to our ability to do that, and that the pandemic, I think in particular, has shown women that we're not willing to settle anymore for workplaces don't value us. So help me out here, um Shana. We we talked to a lot of folks, and I feel like this has been
a forgive me but kind of a chronic problem. Uh, not just this year, last year pre pandemic, but for years that women just seem to continue to come up against barriers when it comes to the workplace. Things getting better, many would argue, but it's still pretty tough and I can still count on my hand maybe the number of CEOs of publicly held companies that are women. Um, so help me out here. What what new things you're finding in your research and maybe it comes off the pandemic
that things are worse or better. Tell me what you're what you're seeing. I'd love to reference the recent Mackenzie Women in the Workplace Report. I think it has the most up to date um information from women everywhere who are saying, uh, you know, we want flexibility, we want to completely revamped culture of work, and we want to continue to advance our careers, but only when there are companies who are willing to support us and value the
whole person that we are. And I'm seeing that from my clients as well as from the research from McKenzie and Lenin what are in your research? I guess, um, Sean, I'd love to get what you think is the top issue that can in fact be addressed. Um, where is some room for optimism? Well, I am a rational optimist. I do believe that this is possible for us to work through this. I think what we did in the pandemic is we found that we had to create new
models of work. And if we can continue to do that, and I know it takes time and effort, that when we begin leading for the world that we're working toward rather than from where we were, um, we'll be able to retain men and women in the workplace and help them thrive. All Right, you have to tell me or sell me that women are incredible and what they can do. But I'm going to go back to like, as long as I've been doing this, and it's a fairly time at this point, I feel like I've been talking about
this issue over and over and over again. So I guess I do wonder. I think we did think the pandemic was going to be Wow, Look, we can work flexible. You know, hybrid women can work at home. It's easier since women tend to when there's kids involved. They still tend to pick up the bulk of those responsibilities. So I guess I'm going to what Paul said, like, what is something that we could change right now, right here that would really move the needle when it comes to
women in the workplace. I think the number one thing that we're seeing, both research and anecdotal is to continue to embrace hybrid and remote work. Women are resoundingly saying I can be successful in my job while doing all the other things that are important to me, reduced commute, caring for my family. And that means that we have to think about why organizations are all of a sudden reverting back to the way that we used to be when we are hearing these messages about how we can
support our employees. That's that's a great point because I think we just heard today Bank of America's UH tightening up their back to work requirements here. But what what is amazing to me, Debora, during this pandemic and the and the work from home was how productive workers were across different industries. And I just think that the industry that Carol and I focus on, Yeah, I mean, I said, no way you're gonna be able to trade government bonds
from your living room. But it's sure enough they did and did it very well. I mean, what's the argument against that, I guess you know, I mean that you know that maybe you're hearing about coming back to work
and that might not be so supportive for women and others. Well, first, I want to acknowledge that, yes, everybody felt more productive and also just more whole when they were working remotely or hybrid And so what I think we're hearing now is that bosses and leaders are saying, well, I can't understand what my staff members are doing because they're not here and I can't see them. And I think there's
a year that people are really not working. But we know to your exact point that they were more productive than ever. And there is the sense that if you're in the office that we will have a strong culture. And I firmly believe the workplace culture is about connections and not about presence. No, Listen, everybody talks about the
importance of diversity. Uh Men, women, um, you know, all gender if you will, and certainly from different backgrounds when it comes to minorities though, and I know your research gets into for black women. I mean, it's even greater the barriers. Correct, Oh, absolutely, you know, the barriers are very high for women and particularly for women of color. Um,
you know, black, brown Asian women. They are seeing all of this exponentially and um, and it's really something that we need to pay attention to in our organizations to help all of us thrive. That means that every group has to be able to thrive together. Are there certain industries you know that are that do a better job of this versus others? I mean, is there some industries that maybe you think need to do maybe a better job, you know? I think that there are many organizations that
are doing as well. I hear this from my coaching clients and organizations that I work with. So it's not necessarily the industry. It's about the leaders who are understanding I can't rely on doing things exactly the way I did them before and saying this is going to require me to rewrite the rules of work. And I'm seeing that fortunately across industries, and that makes me feel hopeful. Yeah. The other thing, though, I don't mean to be such a debbie downer, it's just like I said, I feel
like it's unfortunate. I do think things are getting better in some regards, but it's still really tough. What happens though. If we see a bit of an economic downturn, that just puts more pressure on this doesn't not Shawna. It does put more pressure on everything. I mean, organizations are being expected to do twice as much with fewer people, and I firmly believe that if we invest in our people,
the outcomes will come. It doesn't feel like it makes sense, but again, we're rewriting the rule of work and we're saying that this is possible in the future if we do things differently. All Right, Sean, I thank you so much for joining us. Shana Hawking, a founder of Hawking Leadership, joining us on a crystal clear zoom call from Philadelphia that technology is working, but yeah, it's amazing. I might envy