Metzl Calling for Full Covid-19 Origin Investigation

the virus came from an animal. And there's a group of more than twenty signatories that have put in an open letter published by the Wall Street Journal that the existing mission isn't independent enough and demanding a new probe to consider all possibilities over the origin. So one of those involved in that and here to get some thoughts on it, is Jamie Matzel. Certainly a friend of our show.

He's a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, former director on the U S National Security Council of the State Department, and on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, founder and chair of the global movement One Shared World. And he joins us on the phone in Vail, Colorado. Jamie, how are you. I'm great, Carrol, nice to speak with you again. Yeah, great to have you here. Tell us about this letter that was published, that open letter, published it in the

Wall Street Journal. Yeah, so we published it yesterday. It came out first in the Wall Street Journal, and it's been in newspapers all around the world yesterday and today, the New York Times, everywhere. And basically, the case that we are making is that this pandemic is so big and so catastrophic that we need to know where it came from, what went wrong? Why are so many people

dying unnecessarily? Is the first point. The second point is that this World Health Organization, partly World Health Organization organized joint investigation isn't what we need. It's not sufficiently credible, it's not independent, it doesn't have access to all of the necessary records and samples and personnel. And while it may be useful in some ways, what we need is a thorough investigation to understand where all of this comes from.

And then we outline exactly what would be required, and we call on world leaders to begin a process of allowing the origins of this pandemic to be investigated so we can fix our biggest problems and be safer now

and in the future. JB Listen, this is something we definitely talked about earlier in the week about needing to still know how COVID came to be, how did it happen, because it's crucial for understanding the path of the virus and also understanding maybe future virus is now specifically though, and I know you and the other signatories, I mean, a big part of what you're concerned about is I think half of that joint team involved and working with

the w h Oh, we're Chinese citizens whose scientific independence may be limited at least that's the claim you guys are making your and you and I've talked about this before on air. You're concerned about the role of China, uh specifically especially you know with the concerns that that's where it all started. Yeah. So, um, there's two big pieces of this. One, as you mentioned, is there there

is this joint committee. It's an independent advisory committee to the World Health Organization, which is important because it's not the World Health Organization itself. And then there are these the Chinese authorities who are co investigating. If all you think you are doing is investigating a possible animal origin of the pandemic. Well that that that might even make sense because China is a huge stakeholder in in finding

and being able to prove if they can. Although there's no evidence of it, um that COVID comes from a series of animal to animal jumps in the wild. But if, as I believe is most likely the case, COVID comes from an accidental lab leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and we can talk about that evidence in a moment. And then having China investigate an accidental lablik from one of its own labs when the consequences of that being confirmed as at least possibly the origin of COVID would

be so negative for China. It's you know, it's like having the mafia co investigate a job, you know, local pizza parlor. It just doesn't make sense. Well, do you not have any faith in the system? I mean, last month, we know the mission, the w h O mission, they did reject speculation that the virus could have leaked from a lab and they said instead that it may have jumped to humans through an animal hoster or they talked

about frozen wildlife products. The w h O Director General later said that the u N hasn't or the UN Agency hasn't ruled out any hypotheses. So do you still not have faith in the system that ultimately they'll continue pursuing other avenues. I have a lot of faith in the World Health Organization. I have a lot of faith in doctor ted us out of known, who's the Director

General of the World Health Organization. But this committee that was doing the investigation was not the World Health Organization. It was an independent advisory committee that then went to China for a four week It wasn't an investigation, it was really a study tour um where their access to

everything was highly curtailed. Um. They were chaperoned at all times, not just by their Chinese counterparts, but by but by essentially Chinese government apparatics who were also monitoring the Chinese scientists, so they didn't have access to record, sample, key personnel,

um to the extent that is needed. And then they had this this really just atrocious press event on February nine where they said that the lab leak hypothesis shouldn't be investigated further, and that this idea that it came through frozen foods should And that's why I was so concerned I mean that they didn't seem right to me. Immediately put out a statement condemn me that on Mike

Jamie metzwell dot com website. And I was really pleased when a doctor, when Ted Rosum, put out his statement two days later, which was essentially refuting this joint committee had come up with and saying we need a full investigation.

I want to get back to Jamie Metzel, senior fellow at the Atlanta Council, former director on the U S National Security Council of the State Department, on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, as well founder and chair of the Global Movement when chaired World Still with us on the phone in Veil, Colorado, and we're talking about the recent UH commission that was looking into the origin of COVID

nineteen over in China specifically. Uh, Jamie, you know one thing I want to ask you, do you could see that there's a real possibility that we are ultimately never going to get maybe the data and information um from the Wuhan lab that will ultimately maybe tell us whether or not it was a lab accident or whether it was truly transmission from bats and animals. Yeah, no, I think that's quite likely. And and anyone who's been paying close attention that China has engaged in a massive cover

up over the last year. They immediately started destroying samples, eliminating or moving access to records, imprisoning journalists and others asking questions, and they established a universal gag order not allow any of their scientists to speak publicly or write anything about the origins of the of the pandemic. And so the question is not is China engage in an active cover up to try to obfuscate the issue of the origins of the pandemic? Is should we play along?

And that's why in Ropen letter, what we've said is that the world community needs to articulate what investigation looks like, what kind of access to record, sam old and personnel we need in order to find where COVID comes from night. So I think it's almost it's very very to that question is answerable and not saying China is gonna he's sorry about that, we've been based in this cover up? Are bad here that? But let's set the standard and tell them, tell the world I will not help, and

that's on them. And if it is, we shouldn't start with the compromise if it is ultimately a case that China is covering stuff. And again you know, we we don't know at this at this juncture, UM And to be fair, but I do wonder is this just not though potentially you know another indication Jamie, you'd have talked about this a lot, the complicated relationship that is the

world with China, to be quite honest, going forward. And so you know, companies, major companies want to be involved in China and they're willing to maybe look the other way. Government is willing to look the other way if there are you know, policies that they're uncomfortab bull with UM And this is just how it is. I mean, that's that is partly right. I mean, China is a very big,

very important country. There are areas where really need to collaborate actively China, even whether we like it or not the bettermental world. But my view two on this, and Eric you and I have discussed over the years, Carol, is that we have to have standard for own behavior in those interacts. It can't be lowest common denominator relationships. It has to well, here's the standard of what we believe. And when so many people are dying from a terrible

and not believe totally of the whole pandemic. We have to be able to add very least the tough questions where this comes from for all of our goods, including the good of the people China, right, exactly. But you also know too that it's kind of been an interesting political global political world where China has also pointed the finger at the United States to say, you know, what are you doing to your people? You know what I mean, it's just kind of an interesting time here. It's true,

and and they're not wrong in every case. I mean, they're all kinds of terrible things. And whatever the origin of the pandemic, there is a reason why nine people have died of COVID nineteen in Taiwan and we're over five here in the United States. And that's not the origin. It's in many ways or significantly the response our government. So there's a lot of fingers to point, including it ourselves, but we should just we need to be honest when

pointing in all directions. Hey, listen, we just have about forty seconds left here, do you think at this point to maybe a key conversation is to have is to identify other high risk lab research um, that's being done on pathogens, so that we just in case, we make sure we're aware of this and just got about forty seconds. Yeah, absolutely if COVID comes from an accidental lab leak, which I think is the most likely origin, but your listeners can go to night Jane Metel dot com site, read

the evidence and judge for themselves. That means that maybe we have a bigger lab safety problem than we thought that we had. And then let's look carefully. Is now looking to build another level four virology institute in a high into this high throughput city. Next to that is an international travel hub. We need to be asking these tough questions. If the pandemic can't have to ask the tough questions, when are we going to ask? That's why we like talking with you, because you're always asking the

tough questions. Hey, Jamie, nice to check in with you, b Well. Jamie Metzel, Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council and former National Security Council Official, Founder and chair of the global movement One Shared World, which you can find online